Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

m4r10

I wonder how this self assesment thing will go down. What exactly do we have to consider when we asses our homes? I for one see my home as a big negative debt, if I were to sell my house tomorrow, I'll have to come up with at least 100k to make up the difference between the house price and whatever I borrowed from the bank. Does that means I'll get some tax back if I self asses my house as a negative figure?

bgrizzley

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I will tell you about England where property tax brings in something like £25 billion annually. Even though the charge is £1200 on average this does not even cover water/sewerage and when you add those charges you are getting on for the equivalent of €2000. But then that only covers about one quarter of the services, most of the other three quarters people pay for through their taxes to central government which distributes grants to local authorities. And central government grants are sometimes not enough. So €2000 for them €380 for me (bins and HHC) who is worse off, you decide?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-20424898

What do you mean "without any return", do you literally mean without any return?

Are you being naive? Depends on your reason for thinking bin services would be paid for in the property tax, I haven't heard anything about it either way. I would say you are being naive if you think you can continue to break the law and that it will not end up costing you more. And you would be particularly naive to believe anyone who tells you that HHC will be defeated.

Tell me about some other country with no property tax and how badly off we are in comparison, genuine question.

you should be asking people in other countries how fortunate they would be without property tax, if only they just paid for their local goverment through their Income tax like we do. if they did, they wouldnt have the threat of losing their home for a few dollars like in New York...

http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/10/real_estate/tax-liens/index.htm

The report cited a case of an 81-year-old Rhode Island woman who fell behind on a $474 sewer bill. A corporation bought the home in a tax sale for $836.39. The woman was evicted from the home she had lived in for more than 40 years and the corporation resold the place for $85,000, the report said.

Ask that little old lady how lucky she is to have a property tax...

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

Oh, a means test.
A means test like the one FG were unable to put in place for the childrens allowance......

What are you on about?

I'm not sure that FG are in favour of a means test for CHB, but there is no inability to put one in place.

dvpower

m4r10 wrote: »

I wonder how this self assesment thing will go down. What exactly do we have to consider when we asses our homes? I for one see my home as a big negative debt, if I were to sell my house tomorrow, I'll have to come up with at least 100k to make up the difference between the house price and whatever I borrowed from the bank. Does that means I'll get some tax back if I self asses my house as a negative figure?

I suppose you could give that a go.

The Revenue Commissioners will collect the property tax and will be in charge of collecting the arrears of the household charge.

It will issue guidelines on how to assess the value of your home and will warn of the penalties for not paying the right amount.

:pac:

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

you should be asking people in other countries how fortunate they would be without property tax, if only they just paid for their local goverment through their Income tax like we do. if they did, they wouldnt have the threat of losing their home for a few dollars like in New York...

http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/10/real_estate/tax-liens/index.htm

The report cited a case of an 81-year-old Rhode Island woman who fell behind on a $474 sewer bill. A corporation bought the home in a tax sale for $836.39. The woman was evicted from the home she had lived in for more than 40 years and the corporation resold the place for $85,000, the report said.

Ask that little old lady how lucky she is to have a property tax...

Wouldn't the same happen in New York Rhode Island for failure to pay Income Tax?

bgrizzley

digzy wrote: »

I know this wont be popular!
While none of us like paying tax i'd be much happier with a property tax than having to pay more income tax. It's so frustrating seeing the people who have 'qualified' for med cards. I presume they've set things so they dont pay too much income tax either.

I met an accountant last week. He drives a new merc-leased tbf- has an investment property along with his own house and is a town councillor...The fcker got a med card last month:rolleyes: At least the likes of him cant dodge a property tax as they can do others.

you think a merc driving property owning accountant cant dodge this tax? These are the guys thinking up the taxes!!!! why do you think so many people have paid this tax? it because the property investor landlords are registering in droves (Like your medical card carry accountant) they do not have to pay this tax, their tenants do.

Stand up to them Digzy, they are targeting the likes of you and me, not accountants

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

Will the Government ministers who are availing of Tax Breaks for owning second homes in Dublin be exempt the Property Tax? I heard the end of a discussion on LMFM Radio this morning which stated that they would be exempt. If so then it's nothing short of a disgrace especially when they got cheap loans to buy the houses in the first place.

It would be a disgrace - if there was true (but, as you well know, it isn't)

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Wouldn't the same happen in New York Rhode Island for failure to pay Income Tax?

do you know many 81 year old paying income tax?

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

you think a merc driving property owning accountant cant dodge this tax? These are the guys thinking up the taxes!!!! why do you think so many people have paid this tax? it because the property investor landlords are registering in droves (Like your medical card carry accountant) they do not have to pay this tax, their tenants do.

Landlords do have to pay the property tax.

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

What are you on about?

I'm not sure that FG are in favour of a means test for CHB, but there is no inability to put one in place.

So no drive to save some money?

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

do you know many 81 year old paying income tax?

Yes. Pretty much all of the 81 year old people I know pay income tax on their pension income.

Care to answer the substantive question?

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

So no drive to save some money?

Again, what are you on about?

CHB will likely be reduced in next week's budget.

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Landlords do have to pay the property tax.

on their home only, they are liable for rental properties, but their tenants will pay

ie that 400 property owning landlord is liable for 401 properties but only has to pay for 1(his tenants will pay for his 400 wealth assets)

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

Again, what are you on about?

CHB will likely be reduced in next week's budget.

A "likely" scattergun approach.
Nice.

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

on their home only, they are liable for rental properties, but their tenants will pay

ie that 400 property owning landlord is liable for 401 properties but only has to pay for 1(his tenants will pay for his 400 wealth assets)

No. A landlord has to pay property tax on all of their properties.

I can't imagine what has you confused about this - the HHC legislation is quite clear about who is liable. Landlords are. Tenants are not.

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

A "likely" scattergun approach.
Nice.

... which, of course, has nothing to do with the point you originally attempted to make - that FG were unable to introduce a means test.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

I see they are drawing up a list of exemptions too, why cant everyone be liable why the need for exemptions, absolute sh1te, anyone solely dependent on social welfare will be exempt, dont see how that is fair to have a blanket exemption such as that I know of people on social welfare better off than I am.

And I know plenty of people with no houses, better off than I am.

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Yes. Pretty much all of the 81 year old people I know pay income tax on their pension income.

Care to answer the substantive question?

i wouldnt know. (i cant afford a pension so i havent researched my pension liabilities) (wasnt one of the yes arguments for a property tax that pensioners dont pay tax?)

quite possibly, two wrongs dont make a right though.



Didnt we all agree earlier in the thread that there was nothing to stop a future government legislating to take your house if you didnt pay? IMO this scenario is more likely with the high numbers of defaulters ("theres no feckin carrot so we need more stick Phil")

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

No. A landlord has to pay property tax on all of their properties.

I can't imagine what has you confused about this - the HHC legislation is quite clear about who is liable. Landlords are. Tenants are not.

Read again DV i said the landlord was liable, not the tenants. the assetless tenants will pay his wealth tax though...:D

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

Read again DV i said the landlord was liable, not the tenants. the assetless tenants will pay his wealth tax though...:D

Ah right, you're just cynically playing with words.

Good to know that I don't have to pay my property tax at all - my employer does by your logic.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Are you being naive? Depends on your reason for thinking bin services would be paid for in the property tax, I haven't heard anything about it either way. I would say you are being naive if you think you can continue to break the law and that it will not end up costing you more. And you would be particularly naive to believe anyone who tells you that HHC will be defeated.

I think anyone that believes your government will still be in power to enforce this tax and pursue late fees and penalties for much longer would be the person being 'naive'.

You don't really believe the current govt will see a second term do you?

You don't really believe that any future govt will be voted in without a promise to abolish the unpopular property tax and outstanding charges attached to it?

The fact that next years 'half charge' (6 months only) charge has been decided on is only a further attempt to coax homeowners into paying next year. Once you've paid for a 'half term' they'll rack up the price for the following 'full year'.

FF/SF coalition will both vow to abandon this tax post-budget, and get elected on that promise.

Its almost a certainty at this stage.

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

i wouldnt know. (i cant afford a pension so i havent researched my pension liabilities)

Gotcha. You don't know, but that didn't stop you from posting a scaremongering story.

bgrizzley wrote: »

(wasnt one of the yes arguments for a property tax that pensioners dont pay tax?)

No. It wasn't. You're wrong again. Pensioners do pay tax.

bgrizzley wrote: »

Didnt we all agree earlier in the thread that there was nothing to stop a future government legislating to take your house if you didnt pay?

No. We did not. Wrong again.

bgrizzley wrote: »

IMO this scenario is more likely with the high numbers of defaulters ("theres no feckin carrot so we need more stick Phil")

Is this opinion also based on nothing more than prejudice?

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

I think anyone that believes your government will still be in power to enforce this tax and pursue late fees and penalties for much longer would be the person being 'naive'.

The government doesn't enforce the tax - the state does.

Ghandee wrote: »

FF/SF coalition will both vow to abandon this tax post-budget, and get elected on that promise.

Cloud cuckoo land.

Ghandee wrote: »

Its almost a certainty at this stage.

Where have a heard that before?:pac:

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

The government doesn't enforce the tax - the state does.

Any new govt will abolish it though.

dvpower wrote: »

Cloud cuckoo land.

Will you be saying that after the budget?

I see FF have gained in the popularity polls again.

dvpower wrote: »

Where have a heard that before?:pac:

I think you've given me repeat-itis.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Any new govt will abolish it though.

I'll leave you hold on to that belief - it must be a comfort to you.

Ghandee wrote: »

Will you be saying that after the budget?

Yep. I'll be saying that right after the budget is passed by a massive majority in the Dail.

Ghandee wrote: »

I see FF have gained in the popularity polls again.

At the expense primarily of SF, their putative partners.

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

I think anyone that believes your government will still be in power to enforce this tax and pursue late fees and penalties for much longer would be the person being 'naive'.

You don't really believe the current govt will see a second term do you?

You don't really believe that any future govt will be voted in without a promise to abolish the unpopular property tax and outstanding charges attached to it?

The fact that next years 'half charge' (6 months only) charge has been decided on is only a further attempt to coax homeowners into paying next year. Once you've paid for a 'half term' they'll rack up the price for the following 'full year'.

FF/SF coalition will both vow to abandon this tax post-budget, and get elected on that promise.

Its almost a certainty at this stage.

I would say I could look back on Boards to about the time when FF were in power coming up to the last election when they were voted out, and I could find someone saying how we have to get rid of them because they are screwing us and they definitely will lose the next election, and if we replace them everything will be different.

They were replaced and lo and behold now we have someone moaning about the current govt and saying they will be replaced at the next election. Now if they are replaced by FF/SF we will almost certainly have someone else moaning about how they arent any good at all and they will definitely replaced come the next election.

I personally dont think it would be any different no matter who is in power, either way we would be looking at a property tax. FF can campaign all they want about getting rid of the property tax and can use that to try get elected next time round but I would hope the Irish people arent stupid enough to vote them in again, especially when the election campaign kicks off and all the other parties simple have to do is point out the mistakes they made the last time which are far worse than anything the current lot have done so far.

Hijpo

dvpower wrote: »

No. A landlord has to pay property tax on all of their properties.

I can't imagine what has you confused about this - the HHC legislation is quite clear about who is liable. Landlords are. Tenants are not.

http://www.siptu.ie/media/publications/file_16729_en.pdf

Just wondering if youv seen it last time i posted, you didnt leave a condemning comment so i wasnt sure.

3.5 billion without hitting the low income home owner hard

SafeSurfer

My view on the property tax is that we no longer own our own homes. The state owns your home and can put your children out on the street from the family home after your death if you decide not to pay.

If we received something tangible from the tax such as refuse collection or fire service cover then my view would change. But we get nothing from this tax that we haven't paid for already through VAT, stamp duty, inheritance tax etc.

dvpower

Hijpo wrote: »

Just wondering if youv seen it last time i posted, you didnt leave a condemning comment so i wasnt sure.

Yeah. I saw that document alright.
Some, I'd broadly go along with (abolish property tax breaks, some increase in CGT, CAT, DIRT, reduce the maximum pension contribution)
Some I's not too sure about (e.g. introducing the Financial Transaction Tax while the UK are staying out).
Some I don't think would work (e.g. gambling tax).

They missed out on one measure that the unions / left are generally in favour of throughout Europe - a property tax.

Hijpo

dvpower wrote: »

Yeah. I saw that document alright.
Some, I'd broadly go along with (abolish property tax breaks, some increase in CGT, CAT, DIRT, reduce the maximum pension contribution)
Some I's not too sure about (e.g. introducing the Financial Transaction Tax while the UK are staying out).
Some I don't think would work (e.g. gambling tax).

They missed out on one measure that the unions / left are generally in favour of throughout Europe - a property tax.

So we shouldnt have a tax thats implemented in 10 EU states, but we should have a property tax because other countries in europe have it?