Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Chips Lovell

Hijpo wrote: »

Worth a read, page 11 onwards has about 20 ways to raise 2.9bn to 3.5bn
Estimate figures based on a dept of finance study

no reason why government cant implement most if not all those recommendations


http://www.siptu.ie/media/publications/file_16729_en.pdf

I'd be broadly in agreement with much of what Siptu proposes there.

Having said that, some proposals would be unworkable from a political/practical viewpoint.

For example, I'd love to have an FTT, but such a tax only works if it's introduced on a trans-national basis. In our case, unless there's one in the City of London, we'd be seriously disadvantaged by introducing one here, as we'd risk losing as much if not more business to London as we would from collecting the tax.

dvpower

Hijpo wrote: »

So we shouldnt have a tax thats implemented in 10 EU states, but we should have a property tax because other countries in europe have it?

Why would you think that?

Geuze

darkhorse wrote: »

So tell me, what is your opinion of a home owner on a minimum wage, who is expected to pay €100 HHC v a home owner who earns €100,000, but because his/her house is in an unfinished estate, is exempt payment.

I'm not 100% happy about that.

Get the estate finished asap, sell the remaining houses, apply the HHC then.

Hijpo

You said you wouldnt be sure on FTT because the UK dont have one despite 10 other european states implementing it, then one of the bigger arguments from some of the pro taxers is that we should have a property tax because other countries do.

dvpower

Hijpo wrote: »

You said you wouldnt be sure on FTT because the UK dont have one despite 10 other european states implementing it, then one of the bigger arguments from some of the pro taxers is that we should have a property tax because other countries do.

Good Grief!!!!
Do you really need to have your hand held through these simple explanations?

I'm doubtful on the FTT without the UK signing up because it would drag jobs out of our financial services industry to London and potentially cost us more through lost jobs and other taxes forgone than it would take in (did you read Vlad's post above?). I agree with a FTT in theory.

Property tax is the polar opposite - you cannot just move your house to a lower tax environment like you can your financial services.

Honestly, I'm sure you do understand the differences - I don't know why you're trying to score worthless points with this kind of nonsense.

Chips Lovell

If the result of us introducing a property tax was that everyone move their houses to the UK, then there wouldn't be much point in having one.

Bullseye1

dvpower wrote: »

What kind of warped logic is that!!!

If they went with an external assessment system, that would involve a huge boom for auctioneers and valuers and you'd be on here making exactly the same point.

Are you for-real?

I said that Revenue will come after you if you have undervalued your property, hence some people will be reluctant to make an educated guess and will therefore employ valuers to value their house and submit the value on headed paper so that Revenue will have a weaker case for arguing the house is undervalued.

Phil Hogan is an Auctioneer/Valuer.

Self employed people make self assessment tax returns. A large portion of these people employ accountants/tax consultants to advise them of their liablity.

dvpower

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Are you for-real?

I said that Revenue will come after you if you have undervalued your property, hence some people will be reluctant to make an educated guess and will therefore employ valuers to value their house and submit the value on headed paper so that Revenue will have a weaker case for arguing the house is undervalued.

Phil Hogan is an Auctioneer/Valuer.

Self employed people make self assessment tax returns. A large portion of these people employ accountants/tax consultants to advise them of their liablity.

Let's do a simple bit of mental arithmetic.

What % of properties do you expect to be valued by an auctioneer or valuer (for the self assessment property tax).
Now is that figure less than 100% - the number that would be valued by an auctioneers or valuer if the property tax wasn't self assessed?

I think you can now see which system would be better for auctioneers and valuers.

Hijpo

dvpower wrote: »

Good Grief!!!!
Do you really need to have your hand held through these simple explanations?

I'm doubtful on the FTT without the UK signing up because it would drag jobs out of our financial services industry to London and potentially cost us more through lost jobs and other taxes forgone than it would take in (did you read Vlad's post above?). I agree with a FTT in theory.

Property tax is the polar opposite - you cannot just move your house to a lower tax environment like you can your financial services.

Honestly, I'm sure you do understand the differences - I don't know why you're trying to score worthless points with this kind of nonsense.

No i dont need my hand held thank you, if you explained your view properly the first time i wouldnt have asked the second question and your condescending c*nt attitude wouldnt have consumed your emotions and made its slimy way into your reply again

im sure you realise that that is not what you said in your first post though. All you said was

Some I's not too sure about (e.g. introducing the Financial Transaction Tax while the UK are staying out)

Which reads, the UK dont have one so im not sure we should. Fine explanation alright :rolleyes:

Your second post contains alot more information as to why you are unsure so obviously your first post did need elaborating on. Not my fault if you decide to leave out your entire reason which leads to me having to ask another question

No i hadnt read vlads post, the boards page jumped to your post as it was the last one when i viewed it on my phone so i wasnt aware of a post above yours.

Is that all sorted for you now?

flying off the handle with someone else over his own f**k up :rolleyes:

tayto lover

I can see a lot of problems with self-evaluating.
What happens when people from the same estate or street give different values for their homes? I might think my home is worth 250 k and the lad up the street thinks his worth 350k. We could both be wrong but then what happens?

Bullseye1

dvpower wrote: »

Let's do a simple bit of mental arithmetic.

What % of properties do you expect to be valued by an auctioneer or valuer (for the self assessment property tax).
Now is that figure less than 100% - the number that would be valued by an auctioneers or valuer if the property tax wasn't self assessed?

I think you can now see which system would be better for auctioneers and valuers.

This is pure fluff. And spoken like a true government spokesperson. They have trained you well.

DoesNotCompute

tayto lover wrote: »

I can see a lot of problems with self-evaluating.
What happens when people from the same estate or street give different values for their homes? I might think my home is worth 250 k and the lad up the street thinks his worth 350k. We could both be wrong but then what happens?

Since it's going to be banded in increments of 50k, Revenue will notice the inconstitency with yourself and the lad up the street declaring two houses on the same street being in two different tax bands, and audit you both.

tayto lover

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Since it's going to be banded in increments of 50k, Revenue will notice the inconstitency with yourself and the lad up the street declaring two houses on the same street being in two different tax bands, and audit you both.

Still going to be a problem.
He might have spent 100k on doing his up and i might have done nothing to mine at all. Both of us could be right.

DoesNotCompute

tayto lover wrote: »

Still going to be a problem.
He might have spent 100k on doing his up and i might have done nothing to mine at all. Both of us could be right.

Since he's able to afford 100k doing up his house, he'll be well able to afford the property tax and will have nothing to worry about. It is a form of wealth tax, after all.

Bullseye1

tayto lover wrote: »

I can see a lot of problems with self-evaluating.
What happens when people from the same estate or street give different values for their homes? I might think my home is worth 250 k and the lad up the street thinks his worth 350k. We could both be wrong but then what happens?

The confusion will lead to legislation requiring you to employ an auctioneer/valuer. Or possibly the Valuations Office becomig involved. Shops and commercial properties require such valuations for their rates.

donalg1

tayto lover wrote: »

Still going to be a problem.
He might have spent 100k on doing his up and i might have done nothing to mine at all. Both of us could be right.

Well the audit will show you were both right in your valuations then.

tayto lover

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Since he's able to afford 100k doing up his house, he'll be well able to afford the property tax and will have nothing to worry about. It is a form of wealth tax, after all.

I'm not worried about him. They might go with his valuation and i'd be charged more.

dvpower

Bullseye1 wrote: »

This is pure fluff. And spoken like a true government spokesperson. They have trained you well.

Run out of arguments? Try insults instead!

Am Chile

Anti property tax posters-there is a planned protest at the dail budget night december 5th to coincide with the budget-whos gonna try make it next wednesday night ?

Le_Dieux

tayto lover wrote: »

Will the Government ministers who are availing of Tax Breaks for owning second homes in Dublin be exempt the Property Tax? I heard the end of a discussion on LMFM Radio this morning which stated that they would be exempt. If so then it's nothing short of a disgrace especially when they got cheap loans to buy the houses in the first place.

Do not as I do, do as I say.

There should be an end to many of the "suit ourselves" tax breaks too.

Just found a link to the Govt Minister's Tax Breaks. Apparently SF asked a Dail Question on it.
I vaguely remember Enda Kenny criticising the FF Govt over the same thing years ago and now his own crowd are doing likewise. 6,500 euro a year saved --- nice if you can get away with it. We don't know the half of it. Perks everywhere for themselves.

http://www.thejournal.ie/ministers-tax-breaks-dublin-homes-692938-Nov2012/[/QUOTE]

And THIS has been one of my gripes with the fúcking lot of them since they came to power. They were the ones who ( rightly) slated FF before coming into power, but since then they are milking the cow as much as previously ( one only has to think of the round of drinks in Luxumburg).

Every single one fo them are the same. For me, the ONLY one who has stood up and made the right noises was dropped by Her leader(?) in favour of the MoH in the other 'party' in the coalition.

Sadly, She had to learn the hard way.

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Ah right, you're just cynically playing with words.

Good to know that I don't have to pay my property tax at all - my employer does by your logic.

thats not wordplay, that is a fact.

Strange analogy but you have it backward. It is the same you getting paid then your employer dipping his hand in your wallet to pay his Income tax

dvpower wrote: »

Gotcha. You don't know, but that didn't stop you from posting a scaremongering story.

just pointing out the very possible(indeed, likely IMO) road this tax could lead us down

dvpower wrote: »

No. It wasn't. You're wrong again. Pensioners do pay tax.

I never said they didnt pay it. that was one of your fellow taxophiles arguments to make them pay.

dvpower wrote: »

No. We did not. Wrong again.

IIRC your very own fine self couldnt tell me that such a scenario wouldnt happen here

dvpower wrote: »

Is this opinion also based on nothing more than prejudice?

Thats called realism DV :P, they marched out every threat bar hanging, why not this one

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

I can see a lot of problems with self-evaluating.
What happens when people from the same estate or street give different values for their homes? I might think my home is worth 250 k and the lad up the street thinks his worth 350k. We could both be wrong but then what happens?

Does it matter to you how the system will work since you have declared that you will not pay a tax on your home?

Hijpo

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Does it matter to you how the system will work since you have declared that you will not pay a tax on your home?

Same can be said to ye when yer worrying about who is and isnt protesting and what way they go about protesting.

Le_Dieux

Ghandee wrote: »

I think anyone that believes your government will still be in power to enforce this tax and pursue late fees and penalties for much longer would be the person being 'naive'.

You don't really believe the current govt will see a second term do you?

You don't really believe that any future govt will be voted in without a promise to abolish the unpopular property tax and outstanding charges attached to it?

The fact that next years 'half charge' (6 months only) charge has been decided on is only a further attempt to coax homeowners into paying next year. Once you've paid for a 'half term' they'll rack up the price for the following 'full year'.

FF/SF coalition will both vow to abandon this tax post-budget, and get elected on that promise.

Its almost a certainty at this stage.

I would agree with Your post Ghandee, BUT I shudder what will a) replace the loss of income in the abolition of the PT/HHC ( because believe me, the bastards waiting in the wing WILL slap the ordinary guy in the street with some sort of 'tax') & b) While I can see a FF in govt. come the next election, I would be MOST uncomfortable if they were in 'bed' with SF. For me, I sincerely hope Róisín Shortall resigns from the party who stabbed Her repeatedly in the back and starts a new party.

Le_Dieux

Geuze wrote: »

I'm not 100% happy about that.

Get the estate finished asap, sell the remaining houses, apply the HHC then.

Sure HTF can they finish the 'GE's' when they can't decide on which are GE's and which aren't? The estate I am in is UNFINSHED, but NOT on the GE list. I was heavily involved with our local councillors over this last year. We held our AGM, and a FG cllr came along, and 'advised' we pay the HHC this year and the scenario will be reviewed next year. I was also talking to another cllr. and he told me that there are THREE estates in exactly the same situation as us in Rathangan. ALL this crap being spewed to us while: We have a derelict site, with about 10 concrete based foundations ( thinking of the terrible accident up in Mullingar last year, and trying to ensure that it's not repeated here). A effing portabin sitting in the 'builders' office complex, which was set on fire 2 weeks ago, and necessitated 2 fire engines to be called out to put out the fire), an unfinished surface, residents having to buy tar so they can get into their driveways, a section of the estate with NO street lighting, 5 houses completely derelict, and bastards breaking the windows now, and the derelict builkding site becoming rat infested.

So, before they can go finish an estate they must first find out exactly how many GE's there are. There was a bloke on Mary Wilson's show yesterday evening about GE's and how the govt are manipulating the figures ( before anyone asks me to prove, I can't find the damn podcast). So, the true figure is unknown.

This damn country sucks, and the &*&*&*&* who portray themselves as a) a Government & b) their cohorts pertaining to be councillors ( or some of them)are only in for their own gain, they don't give 2 fúcks about US. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Am Chile

Is anyone on here living in the clonmel area ? there is a planned protest at a labour party gathering this sunday.

Happening
on Sunday December 2nd in Hotel Minella, Clonmel, 100 Years of Labour, the local
CAHWT have asked for support for a protest at this event at which all Labour TDs
will attend... please do your best to get there. Short notice due to secrecy of
the planning of the event!!!
Protest
at 12:30pm
1.30pm
official registration

https://www.facebook.com/NoHouseholdTax/posts/439535756096008

Le_Dieux

dvpower wrote: »

Run out of arguments? Try insults instead!

Says he/she who accuses a poster of having 'warped logic'.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Does it matter to you how the system will work since you have declared that you will not pay a tax on your home?

Not really but I like to keep up

Ghandee

Seen this posted elsewhere today, so can't claim the credit.

Step 1: Do your self assessment.
Step 2: Pay the unfair tax.
Step 3: Get prosecuted for under-payment.
Step 4: Tell the judge "How would I know what my house is worth? Sure I'm not an auctioneer or a valuer."
Step 5: Case struck out.......

cazzak79

My parents are 82 and 76 they live in a farm house that's been in my dads family since 1800's it's not massive or anything don't think it's ever been valued
How are they going to value house?