Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

I live in hope.
By the way, could you tell me how much approx. would an average worker pay in universal social charge in a year in the UK?

I don't know, I was only telling you about property tax there since you asked me about property tax in other countries. I asked you to tell me about some country with no property tax. Anything for me yet?

dvpower

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't know, I was only telling you about property tax there since you asked me about property tax in other countries. I asked you to tell me about some country with no property tax. Anything for me yet?

N.I. is the UK equivalent to PRSI/USC.
I think it comes in at around 14pct

dvpower

3rdDegree wrote: »

Are you saying we are expected to get our own houses valued? I presume you'd need to get an estate agent to do it accurately. Or as you say, just guess, and risk the tax man coming after you years later if you undervalued it.

You are not expected to get an external valuation - it is a self assessment tax.

Anyone who lacks the capability to make a half reasonable assessment might just ask a friend or family member to help.

donalg1

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Sure won't we all have to do it Gh? They want US to evaluate our property for them to charge us???

Are they for real, or what??????

Would you prefer them to value it for you, I am sure you would be giving out that they would then over value everything, or are going to spend a fortune sending someone out to value all the properties in the country. Jobs for the boys I am sure would be bandied out pretty quickly. :rolleyes:

bgrizzley

doesnt all this only apply to the people who have been trapped in the property tax net? the only reason the rest of us would want to know the value of our house, is to know how much money we are not p1ssing away on it...

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Some people want everything just handed to them.

Exactly.

The government want us to continuously hand them our money, while creating database's on their behalf, yet at the same time, offer no improvement or extras in the services we're already 'provided' with, and already paying for.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Chips Lovell

So you'd only pay a property tax if you got an increased level of services?

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So you'd only pay a property tax if you got an increased level of services?

I'd only pay a property tax if it was like the domestic rates system in the north and in the UK, and I've consistently said this from day one.

If they provide the services they get for rates, gladly pay the equivalent of the rates charge.

They won't though.

Hhc/property tax money has already been earmarked for something body else.

SafeSurfer

dvpower wrote: »

You are not expected to get an external valuation - it is a self assessment tax.

Anyone who lacks the capability to make a half reasonable assessment might just ask a friend or family member to help.

So homeowners with experience of perhaps 1 property transaction are expected to value a property which auctioneers and estate agents with years of experience in property valuations find almost impossible to do.

Identikit semi ds and apartments in urban areas are one thing but one of houses of different size, age and style in rural areas in the same townland will be very difficult to value.

Chips Lovell

Ghandee wrote: »

If they provide the services they get for rates, gladly pay the equivalent of the rates charge.

But to get an increased level of service, beyond what you get at the moment, surely you'd need to have a higher property tax.

At the moment, what they're doing is stripping out a certain level of central Local Authority funding and replacing it with the property tax. To increase services, you'd need to either increase central funding or increase the property tax, both of which would need to be covered by the tax payer.

Bullseye1

dvpower wrote: »

... or planned ahead and made provision for their retirement.

People who did plan ahead for their retirement had their investment "ROBBED" by the current government to provide employment which never happened.

SafeSurfer

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Seems like a genuinely fair proposal to me (if a little on the low side for the moment).

Don't think the queues will be too long next time as majority will pay at source. Hopefully it will apply to tenants this time (so as to make sure everyone pays their fair share towards the services upon which they depend).

If needs be, the NPPR could also be increased to some extent (although with PRSI to be applied on rental income that might suffice).

Critically important that Revenue are also empowered to match HHC payments to catch the 2012 evaders.

So you are in favour of flat taxes like the NPPR. JP Mc Manus, non resident in Ireland, should pay the same for the largest private house in the country as someone with a log cabin beside the beach in Spanish Point?

Bullseye1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So you'd only pay a property tax if you got an increased level of services?

Seems reasonable.

dvpower

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So homeowners with experience of perhaps 1 property transaction are expected to value a property which auctioneers and estate agents with years of experience in property valuations find almost impossible to do.

Identikit semi ds and apartments in urban areas are one thing but one of houses of different size, age and style in rural areas in the same townland will be very difficult to value.

Its pretty easy to do a ballpark valuation on a property.

Obviously some people aren't up to even basic tasks, so they could ask family or friends to help. Or they could ask the local estate agent for a rough valuation if they want - I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige. The last time I was thinking about selling a property, I went to three local estate agents who gave me valuations for no charge.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Its pretty easy to do a ballpark valuation on a property.

Obviously some people aren't up to even basic tasks, so they could ask family or friends to help. Or they could ask the local estate agent for a rough valuation if they want - I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige. The last time I was thinking about selling a property, I went to three local estate agents who gave me valuations for no charge.

Own many do you?

dvpower

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Seems reasonable.

Well the argument that its a fundamentally unfair tax seems to be falling apart. If the services were improved, property tax becomes reasonable.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Own many do you?

No. Why do you ask?

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

No. Why do you ask?

Because you said.

The last time I was thinking about selling a property,

Which implies you have more than one.

A home owner would have prob said, 'when I sold my home/house.'?

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Because you said.


Which implies you have more than one.

A home owner would have prob said, 'when I sold my home/house.'?

Just nosiness, or is the information relevant to this discussion?

I would have thought that someone who owned many properties would be more likely to be against a property tax.

donalg1

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Seems reasonable.

As reasonable as expecting someone to pay for services before demanding they get more services then. The LA's dont have the money to cover the existing services they are providing so the property tax will go towards paying for the services provided currently. So I wouldnt imagine they will be increasing the services until the current services are covered.

You wouldnt go to a shop and buy something for €10 and hand the cashier €8 and then say I will give you the other €2 if you give me something else worth €2, basically I will pay you €10 for €12 worth of goods.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Just nosiness, or is the information relevant to this discussion?

I would have thought that someone who owned many properties would be more likely to be against a property tax.

why if they can pass it on to their tenants?

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

As reasonable as expecting someone to pay for services before demanding they get more services then. The LA's dont have the money to cover the existing services they are providing so the property tax will go towards paying for the services provided currently. So I wouldnt imagine they will be increasing the services until the current services are covered.

You wouldnt go to a shop and buy something for €10 and hand the cashier €8 and then say I will give you the other €2 if you give me something else worth €2, basically I will pay you €10 for €12 worth of goods.

if the councils getting it tight, they could always, you know, slash the workforce numbers, take county managers salaries down from 200k a year to a more realistic level, etc etc.

then they might be entitled to come ask us to stump up the shortfall?

seem reasonable?

Bullseye1

dvpower wrote: »

Well the argument that its a fundamentally unfair tax seems to be falling apart. If the services were improved, property tax becomes reasonable.

I'm not against a property tax;) I'm against a property tax to prop up a government that is too big.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

why if they can pass it on to their tenants?

I don't understand why people think that landlords will automatically pass this on to tenants. Sure, it will have an upward pressure on rents and some landlords will be able to increase rents, but in many areas where there is a glut of rental properties on the market, landlords are going to have to absorb this tax.

dvpower

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm not against a property tax;) I'm against a property tax to prop up a government that is too big.

If that is the basis of your opposition, then presumably you are against other taxes too.
Which other taxes are you currently evading?

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

if the councils getting it tight, they could always, you know, slash the workforce numbers, take county managers salaries down from 200k a year to a more realistic level, etc etc.

then they might be entitled to come ask us to stump up the shortfall?

seem reasonable?

They have slashed the workforce numbers, and are the Co. Managers on €200k a year?

Fact is they have cut numbers and taken pay cuts, it gets to the point where cutting salaries has to be done in align with other revenue raising ideas.

I mean a private company doesnt cut the wages and the workforce every time they have some financial trouble, as it will eventually get to the point where there isnt enough staff to do the work. They have to come up with other ways to decrease the deficit, revenue raising ideas need to be looked at.

Now I am sure the LA's could cut numbers or redeploy staff more efficiently but what is it you want them to do, cut every member of staff until there is one person left to do everything working for minimum wage. And then what you will say maybe they should reduce the minimum wage level before asking us to pay more for the services they provide. :rolleyes:

What kind of business plan is it to have where you say oh look revenue is down this month lets cut some staff and make the rest take another pay cut. I can imagine some unrest would eventually materialise in the workforce wouldnt you.

Do you think its reasonable to ask someone to pay for services they avail of?

titsonabull

I was wondering if anybody has considered the Loan to value ratio with regards to the banks. Say you have a €300,000 mortgage and when you took out the mortgage the house was valued at €650,000 then you interest rate was set out at LTV < 50% and your interest rate would be 3.9% as set out in the table below taken from AIB website.
Now with the property tax being self assessed say you don’t have or just don’t want to give the government too much money and you value your house at €300,000. Is there any chance that the bank will come back to you and say you are paying property tax on a house that now you LTV rate > 80% and increase your interest rate by 0.42%. This would amount to almost 05% interest rate rise and approximately €90 / month increase on payments.
Anybody got thoughts on this.
LTV Variable >80% 4.24% 4.32% EUR 6.18
LTV Variable > 50%< =80% 4.04% 4.11% EUR 6.07
LTV Variable< =50% 3.84% 3.90% EUR 6.00

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

You wouldnt go to a shop and buy something for €10 and hand the cashier €8 and then say I will give you the other €2 if you give me something else worth €2, basically I will pay you €10 for €12 worth of goods.

No, but the shopkeeper would`t come knocking looking for more money for something I already bought either.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

Do you think its reasonable to ask someone to pay for services they avail of?

What percentage of their income, does a minimum wage worker pay in taxes?

Would it be higher, or lower than someone on 50k, 100k?

Its a genuine question, for anyone that might answer.

dvpower

titsonabull wrote: »

I was wondering if anybody has considered the Loan to value ratio with regards to the banks. Say you have a €300,000 mortgage and when you took out the mortgage the house was valued at €650,000 then you interest rate was set out at LTV < 50% and your interest rate would be 3.9% as set out in the table below taken from AIB website.
Now with the property tax being self assessed say you don’t have or just don’t want to give the government too much money and you value your house at €300,000. Is there any chance that the bank will come back to you and say you are paying property tax on a house that now you LTV rate > 80% and increase your interest rate by 0.42%. This would amount to almost 05% interest rate rise and approximately €90 / month increase on payments.
Anybody got thoughts on this.
LTV Variable >80% 4.24% 4.32% EUR 6.18
LTV Variable > 50%< =80% 4.04% 4.11% EUR 6.07
LTV Variable< =50% 3.84% 3.90% EUR 6.00

Not unless the Revenue Commissioners are going to be feeding your bank information from your property tax assessment.
Which they aren't.