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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

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  • Options
    #2342
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    What percentage of their income, does a minimum wage worker pay in taxes?

    Would it be higher, or lower than someone on 50k, 100k?

    Its a genuine question, for anyone that might answer.

    Much, much lower.


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    #2343
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    No, but the shopkeeper would`t come knocking looking for more money for something I already bought either.

    No but if the shopkeeper was providing you with an ongoing service they would be looking for more money from you.


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    #2344
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    donalg1 wrote: »
    No but if the shopkeeper was providing you with an ongoing service they would be looking for more money from you.
    I'd hate to be the owner of the hire shop Robbie goes to.


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    #2345
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'd hate to be the owner of the hire shop Robbie goes to.

    Some people seem to think it appropriate to pay what they think a service is worth and not what the actual provider of said services thinks its worth. I wonder do the same people pay their broadband supplier an amount each month based on their average download speeds!!

    You would imagine a self assessment property tax would suit them then, seeing as they can pay what they think their property is worth which seems to be exactly what they want.


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    #2346
    Hijpo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,833 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    donalg1 wrote: »

    Some people seem to think it appropriate to pay what they think a service is worth and not what the actual provider of said services thinks its worth. I wonder do the same people pay their broadband supplier an amount each month based on their average download speeds!!

    You would imagine a self assessment property tax would suit them then, seeing as they can pay what they think their property is worth which seems to be exactly what they want.

    What services and benefits do we currently avail off for free?


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    #2347
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Hijpo wrote: »
    What services and benefits do we currently avail off for free?

    I never said they were free, but you arent paying enough for the ones you are receiving, hence my shop analogy.


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    #2348
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,427 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    dvpower wrote: »
    Its pretty easy to do a ballpark valuation on a property.

    Obviously some people aren't up to even basic tasks, so they could ask family or friends to help. Or they could ask the local estate agent for a rough valuation if they want - I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige. The last time I was thinking about selling a property, I went to three local estate agents who gave me valuations for no charge.

    So you think that it would be ok to ask a friend or family member to value a house? How about some random person you meet on the street? An auctioneer will give you an estimate of what a property is currently. The market value of a property can only truly be ascertained on sale.

    I believe the revenue are facing a nightmare scenario if they try to prove the value of individual properties in a prosecution situation. I can always slip my friendly auctioneer a few quid to say the council who wants my money to pay for "services" gave me planning permission to build on a flood plain and my property is in fact unsellable.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #2349
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,427 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    dvpower wrote: »
    Well the argument that its a fundamentally unfair tax seems to be falling apart. If the services were improved, property tax becomes reasonable. :p

    Do you not think that councils are as culpable as banks and developers for the current financial crisis. Councils re zoned thousands of acres countrywide for housing that was not needed. They squandered the revenue streams that this generated. What makes you think that a new revenue stream wont be squandered by them.

    Not only did they waste the windfall revenues they received, they completely failed to protect they people that paid handsomely for their services, such as residents of houses built in flood plains and homeowners whose homes were built using pyrite. In a huge number of cases the councils have not even collected development levies from the builders they granted planning permission to.

    For example the 4 Dublin local authorities are owed €322 million in development charges, Kildare co co is owed €54 million and the list goes on.

    And the councils now want their incompetence rewarded by receiving more money. No thanks.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #2350
    Hijpo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,833 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I never said they were free, but you arent paying enough for the ones you are receiving, hence my shop analogy.

    Would you pay full price for flat coke or out of date bread?


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    #2351
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Hijpo wrote: »
    Would you pay full price for flat coke or out of date bread?

    I would expect to pay full price for a service I am availing of, now if I go to a shop and they have flat coke for sale for €1 I am not going to offer €0.75 and say sure thats what I think its worth now am I.

    Do you decide how much motor tax you are going to pay based on the number of potholes on some road?


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    #2352
    DoesNotCompute
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭DoesNotCompute


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I can always slip my friendly auctioneer a few quid to say the council who wants my money to pay for "services" gave me planning permission to build on a flood plain and my property is in fact unsellable.

    How much would you slip your auctioneer friend? Judging by their rates, you'd be better off just paying the bloody tax to be honest.


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    #2353
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I'm not sure what the fuss is about. I worked out a valuation for my house in about a minute last night.


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    #2354
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    DoesNotCompute wrote: »
    How much would you slip your auctioneer friend? Judging by their rates, you'd be better off just paying the bloody tax to be honest.

    Has it actually sunk in with you yet that this tax (if it survives) will be continuous, rising on a yearly basis? The auctioneer may be dear this year, but he wont be back next year, and the year after and the year after that and so on and so on, each time with an increased fee.

    And before someone asks me how I know that?

    Ask yourself this, when was the last time you seen car tax go down?

    Half term next year at a low rate to get you suckers, eh, sucked in.

    You were warned! :pac:


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    #2355
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    I'm not sure what the fuss is about. I worked out a valuation for my house in about a minute last night.

    How does an 86 year old widow, who's never had a computer in her life work out hers? (ask her friendly neighbourhood judge?)


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    #2356
    Maggie 2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭Maggie 2


    Ghandee wrote: »
    How does an 86 year old widow, who's never had a computer in her life work out hers? (ask her friendly neighbourhood judge?)
    Or her computer literate offspring.


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    #2357
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    So you think that it would be ok to ask a friend or family member to value a house?
    Yes. Absolutely no problem whatsoever.
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    How about some random person you meet on the street?
    You're just being silly now!
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    An auctioneer will give you an estimate of what a property is currently.
    One would, but since this is a self assessment tax, one is not necessary ...
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    The market value of a property can only truly be ascertained on sale.
    ... which, of course, is where the ludicrous argument that an individual cannot value their house accurately enough for the Revenue leads to ...

    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I believe the revenue are facing a nightmare scenario if they try to prove the value of individual properties in a prosecution situation. I can always slip my friendly auctioneer a few quid to say the council who wants my money to pay for "services" gave me planning permission to build on a flood plain and my property is in fact unsellable.
    ... but it seems that ludicrous argument is just the way you roll. :P


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    #2358
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Given that we're not the first country to introduce a property tax, I can't imagine that it will be rocket science to devise a system whereby all citizens can value their houses for its purposes.

    Having said that, I do imagine there will be a certain amount of hair pulling about it in the media.


  • Options
    #2359
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Do you not think that councils are as culpable as banks and developers for the current financial crisis. Councils re zoned thousands of acres countrywide for housing that was not needed. They squandered the revenue streams that this generated. What makes you think that a new revenue stream wont be squandered by them.

    Not only did they waste the windfall revenues they received, they completely failed to protect they people that paid handsomely for their services, such as residents of houses built in flood plains and homeowners whose homes were built using pyrite. In a huge number of cases the councils have not even collected development levies from the builders they granted planning permission to.

    For example the 4 Dublin local authorities are owed €322 million in development charges, Kildare co co is owed €54 million and the list goes on.

    And the councils now want their incompetence rewarded by receiving more money. No thanks.
    You should stand for election to your local council and put a stop to the waste.


  • Options
    #2360
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Ask yourself this, when was the last time you seen car tax go down?
    A few years ago when they changed it to be based on CO2 ratings - car taxes was slashed for many vehicles.


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    #2361
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    But to get an increased level of service, beyond what you get at the moment, surely you'd need to have a higher property tax.

    At the moment, what they're doing is stripping out a certain level of central Local Authority funding and replacing it with the property tax. To increase services, you'd need to either increase central funding or increase the property tax, both of which would need to be covered by the tax payer.

    As I understand it Vlad, we get SFA for this property tax. If we were to get free gp, bin collection etc ( what they get up North & across the lake), then I would deem it right to pay.

    But to have to pay for nothing, while the haunchos in DE are still milking the system to their heart's content???:mad:


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    #2362
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    dvpower wrote: »
    Its pretty easy to do a ballpark valuation on a property.

    Obviously some people aren't up to even basic tasks, so they could ask family or friends to help. Or they could ask the local estate agent for a rough valuation if they want - I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige. The last time I was thinking about selling a property, I went to three local estate agents who gave me valuations for no charge.

    Somehow, getting a valuation for selling purposes and for this PT are 2 completly different factors.


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    #2363
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Because you said.


    Which implies you have more than one.

    A home owner would have prob said, 'when I sold my home/house.'?

    Sure Gh, don't You know every td has more than one property?;)


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    #2364
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    dvpower wrote: »
    If that is the basis of your opposition, then presumably you are against other taxes too.
    Which other taxes are you currently evading?

    Mate you have accused me of a evading taxes on a public forum. WTF.

    With regards to the HHC (which is a charge not a tax), Where have I ever stated I had not paid the HHC?

    Not only are you a spoofer who only answers questions with other questions but also falsely accuse people of tax evasion because they believe in small government.


  • Options
    #2365
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    As I understand it Vlad, we get SFA for this property tax.

    Your property tax is going to local authorities to replace funding they previously got from central government.

    Your share of the tax take that previously went to fund local authorities via central government is now being diverted elsewhere.

    If you want additional local authority services, you'd need either a higher property tax to go directly to local authorities or higher income tax to increase central government funding, or spending cuts elsewhere to increase central government funding.

    I don't think anyone has said you'll receive any additional services for paying a property tax. It's been made plain and clear that we have to pay more taxes to maintain the existing level of services.


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    #2366
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    dvpower wrote: »
    Not unless the Revenue Commissioners are going to be feeding your bank information from your property tax assessment.
    Which they aren't.

    Dv, to me You are an arrogant pompous person, who has an answer for EVERYTHING with regard to any motion against the HHC or the PT.You MUST be either a td, so sure are You of what the RC are/not going to do. I think it wise for me to pull away from this thread as I feel You are here to pick up crumbs for your buddies in DE.

    This thread is not the same since Gerry0777 was banned.


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    #2367
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Some people seem to think it appropriate to pay what they think a service is worth and not what the actual provider of said services thinks its worth. I wonder do the same people pay their broadband supplier an amount each month based on their average download speeds!!

    You would imagine a self assessment property tax would suit them then, seeing as they can pay what they think their property is worth which seems to be exactly what they want.

    In fairness you can move broadband provider without much hassle and there is a vast difference in quality between providers.

    Moving local authority means moving house and there is no way of knowing if the new LA in which you have relocated are any better. It's a silly comparison really.


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    #2368
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    dvpower wrote: »
    Its pretty easy to do a ballpark valuation on a property.

    Obviously some people aren't up to even basic tasks, so they could ask family or friends to help. Or they could ask the local estate agent for a rough valuation if they want - I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige. The last time I was thinking about selling a property, I went to three local estate agents who gave me valuations for no charge.


    :pac::pac:From suggesting that I had a warped logic for even suggesting people will be scared into employing an estate agent to value their property to avoid Revenue coming after them to admitting to employing no less than three estate agents to get a value on your property. :pac::pac: The days of free valuations are long gone.


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    #2369
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    :pac::pac:From suggesting that I had a warped logic for even suggesting people will be scared into employing an estate agent to value their property to avoid Revenue coming after them to admitting to employing no less than three estate agents to get a value on your property. :pac::pac: The days of free valuations are long gone.
    It is still very possible to get a free valuation from an estate agent - they jump at any chance of some business.

    But it's not necessary for the SELF assessment property tax. You only need to get a rough value within a 50k band.


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    #2370
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    What about your false allegation?


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    #2371
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    Dv, to me You are an arrogant pompous person, who has an answer for EVERYTHING with regard to any motion against the HHC or the PT.You MUST be either a td, so sure are You of what the RC are/not going to do. I think it wise for me to pull away from this thread as I feel You are here to pick up crumbs for your buddies in DE.

    This thread is not the same since Gerry0777 was banned.
    It might be better if you did withdraw from the thread if you are going to continue down the personal abuse road - we know where that leads :Pac:


This discussion has been closed.
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