Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

loggedoff

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Normality being what? In my lifetime there have been periods of higher unemployment and emigration than now. And times when things were more desperate. Imagine trying to buy a house with mortgage rates of 20% and rising.

In more recent times there has been a property bubble and an international recession. These are regular phenomena of capitalist economies and will be repeated here in the future. If the property bubble is the sort of normal you want to return to you are welcome to it.

No thanks to another property bubble and no thanks to interest rates of 20% (I seen what that did to my parents, put my father in his grave.:()
The thing is though, that after 6 austerity budgets we don't seem to be getting anywhere.
We still have a crap banking sector, unemployment is stubbornly high, we're seeing massive cuts, there's no growth and it seems like no hope.
I think that if we could say for definite that the worst was over, and we're on the up so to speak, people would start spending a bit more and things would improve quickly.
Something is needed to get the ball rolling and for us to stop feeling sorry for ourselves.
What that is, I don't know.

darkhorse

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Yes.

Those on social welfare who lost their job and are having problems paying back their mortgage can apply for mortgage interest supplement, and will then be exempt from the property tax.

How many mansions have you heard of that are in unfinished housing estates?

Someone can be rich and not live in a mansion and also live in an unfinished estate. Its not compulsory for a rich person to live in a mansion.

lugha

BubbleBalls wrote: »

Fair point though - more people are needed on marches. More people to actively reflect what we are experiencing. A lot of people I know are on the edge and, when tipped, they will act.

But what will their actions achieve, if there is no real alternative? And when we are spending substantially more that we are earning, even without our banking problems, there is no real alternative but to do something about it, unless you can find someone who are happy to fund our massive deficit with no strings attached.

bgrizzley

lugha wrote: »

But what will their actions achieve, if there is no real alternative? And when we are spending substantially more that we are earning, even without our banking problems, there is no real alternative but to do something about it, unless you can find someone who are happy to fund our massive deficit with no strings attached.

what would any sensible person do?

darkhorse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So you're saying we didn't need a bailout all along? It was a big conspiracy?

The answer to that one, Vlad, is, we will never know. Why will we never know? Because there are some things that governments deem that their people should not know, otherwise, we would have known long before now.

darkhorse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If they did, there'd be a big media hoopla over whatever was in it. But it wouldn't do anything to alter the situation we were in then or the situation we are in now.

Maybe not, then again, what would be the only way to find out.

Colm McCarthy: State should challenge legality of ECB's actions ...

darkhorse

paddy147 wrote: »

Well according to RTE news tonight,it will be deffered and it will also have an extra 4% interested (penalty) added to it aswell.

So you get further fcuked over by The Goverment because you cannot afford to pay it.:eek::mad:

New homes bought by first-time buyers, or unoccupied homes bought, will be exempt from new property tax up until 2016.

This gets better and better. Someone may be a billionaire under the above heading and be exempt. Am I right there. No, I must be mistaken.

darkhorse

Ghandee wrote: »

That's because they're a bunch of lying hoods too lads.
No other reason.

Yeah, G, this is the stuff that movies are made ouof.

Izzy Skint

lugha wrote: »

But what will their actions achieve, if there is no real alternative? And when we are spending substantially more that we are earning, even without our banking problems, there is no real alternative but to do something about it, unless you can find someone who are happy to fund our massive deficit with no strings attached.

well done Lugha, "spending substantially more that we are earning"....nail on the head....now what areas have seen the biggest increases in spending over the past decade....hmmmm....any ideas ?...

darkhorse

robbie7730 wrote: »

Its like being nailed to a cross, and looking on the bright side is seeing them use shiny new nails instead of rusty ones.

This really cracked me up laughing, robbie, nice one.:D:D:D

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Household Charge

I'll just enlarge a small bit what you typed, shall I?

darkhorse

loggedoff wrote: »

Has anyone here, from either side, any idea how long it'll take Ireland to get back to some sense of normality?
Are we looking at another 5 years of flatlining, 10 years?
The only thing that these new taxes and cuts seem to do is add to the sense of dispair.
Surely there has to be some light at the end of the tunnel.

There's no point in lying to ya.

Austerity + No Growth = No Light at end of Tunnel.

darkhorse

loggedoff wrote: »

Maybe when the troika are gone there'll be a different approach.

And just maybe kinny will be promoted to merkel's second in command

---

Oh wait, I nearly forgot.

Le_Dieux

dvpower wrote: »

Maybe you should enlighten yourself and do your own research.

I have a reason for asking. If You don't know the answer, why don't you just shut up? Or is that too difficult?

dvpower

Le_Dieux wrote: »

I have a reason for asking. If You don't know the answer, why don't you just shut up? Or is that too difficult?

You would have to be living under a rock not to know what a ghost estate is. Do you live on the underside of a rock?

In a discussion thread, if you want someone to shut up, you can just use the ignore facility. I suggest you do this.

lugha

bgrizzley wrote: »

what would any sensible person do?

Hm, I'm going to go with: raise more or spend less money or both. Final answer!

IMO, we should do both. Izzy (howya Izzy!) thinks we should focus on spending cuts. But the fine bearded people organising protests are agin austerity. Not just agin new or higher taxes. But also agin spending cuts on the likes of SW payments and PS wages.

So my question remains: How do we plot our way out of the mess we are in if there are to be no increases in taxes and no spending cuts. i.e. no austerity?

IMO, there isn't a way. And you can march until your feet turn flat and purple if you want, that reality won't change.

bgrizzley

lugha wrote: »

Hm, I'm going to go with: raise more or spend less money or both. Final answer!

IMO, we should do both. Izzy (howya Izzy!) thinks we should focus on spending cuts. But the fine bearded people organising protests are agin austerity. Not just agin new or higher taxes. But also agin spending cuts on the likes of SW payments and PS wages.

So my question remains: How do we plot our way out of the mess we are in if there are to be no increases in taxes and no spending cuts. i.e. no austerity?

IMO, there isn't a way. And you can march until your feet turn flat and purple if you want, that reality won't change.

i guess i cant argue with you then(cause im also with Izzy) (although i think i'd be more extreme on spending cuts that either of you:D(even taking into acccount that cuts would drive us futher into economic stagnancy(IMO it needs to get a lot worse before it gets better)).

Hijpo

It is easier to see the truth in small things, because the larger something is the greater the opportunity for confusion. For instance, the Public Accounts Committee deals with sums involving so many zeros and so many people that it is often difficult to hold on to reality while unravelling both figures and events. But that is not the case with the household charge.

Over the past few weeks many thousands of households in Ireland have received letters from their Local Authorities asking if they have paid the household charge. A high proportion of those being questioned have paid. Now they are being asked to take the time to check their records, and, at their own cost, telephone their County Council to confirm that payment has been made. Why?

Why should anyone who has paid bear the cost of searching, telephoning, and waiting because the state has not got its systems right?

How can the state justify the cost it is imposing on its citizens, and the cost of labour, postage and stationary that it has incurred because of its inefficiency. The Minister has overall responsibility for this, but who did he delegate that task to and how were they dealt with?

The truth is that when citizens make mistakes the state does not hesitate to penalise them, and shows little humanity when doing so. But, when the state itself makes mistakes, often involving huge amounts of public money, nobody is held to account and the public are expected to bear the cost. That has to stop.

The senior public servants who run this state have to be held accountable for systemic failure, incompetence and waste when it occurs. It is your money, hard earned and heavily taxed, that is at stake. It should be spent carefully and efficiently. Often it is not. And too little is being done about that, in my opinion.

You can help to change that by raising your voice, demanding action from your politicians and confronting and complaining about state waste anywhere you see it. If you don’t get results, do not hesitate to use the ballot box to make a difference.

In my political life, or as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, I never forget that. In the end, this is your country.


-

John McGuinness

loggedoff

Hijpo wrote: »

It is easier to see the truth in small things, because the larger something is the greater the opportunity for confusion. For instance, the Public Accounts Committee deals with sums involving so many zeros and so many people that it is often difficult to hold on to reality while unravelling both figures and events. But that is not the case with the household charge.

Over the past few weeks many thousands of households in Ireland have received letters from their Local Authorities asking if they have paid the household charge. A high proportion of those being questioned have paid. Now they are being asked to take the time to check their records, and, at their own cost, telephone their County Council to confirm that payment has been made. Why?

Why should anyone who has paid bear the cost of searching, telephoning, and waiting because the state has not got its systems right?

How can the state justify the cost it is imposing on its citizens, and the cost of labour, postage and stationary that it has incurred because of its inefficiency. The Minister has overall responsibility for this, but who did he delegate that task to and how were they dealt with?

The truth is that when citizens make mistakes the state does not hesitate to penalise them, and shows little humanity when doing so. But, when the state itself makes mistakes, often involving huge amounts of public money, nobody is held to account and the public are expected to bear the cost. That has to stop.

The senior public servants who run this state have to be held accountable for systemic failure, incompetence and waste when it occurs. It is your money, hard earned and heavily taxed, that is at stake. It should be spent carefully and efficiently. Often it is not. And too little is being done about that, in my opinion.

You can help to change that by raising your voice, demanding action from your politicians and confronting and complaining about state waste anywhere you see it. If you don’t get results, do not hesitate to use the ballot box to make a difference.

In my political life, or as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, I never forget that. In the end, this is your country.


-

John McGuinness

Mighty words ok, just a pity they're from a man who stood back and watched while his party destroyed our country.

donalg1

loggedoff wrote: »

Mighty words ok, just a pity they're from a man who stood back and watched while his party destroyed our country.

Here Here.

Its unbelievable how FF are spouting so much nonsense and hypocricy, austerity measures are as a result of their policies and lack of governance over the last decade and now they expect the Irish people to listen to them on economic matters, how short do they think our memories are? Clearly they have very short memories their posturing during the budget yesterday was nothing short of disgraceful.

Hijpo

lets not forget the short memories of the people who will more than likely vote them in in the next election for two reasons.
1) They have said they are against property tax
2) To get FG out

The people who see through there false promisses and want a new government party in place dont stand a chance.

loggedoff

Hijpo wrote: »

lets not forget the short memories of the people who will more than likely vote them in in the next election for two reasons.
1) They have said they are against property tax
2) To get FG out

The people who see through there false promisses and want a new government party in place dont stand a chance.

I have to say, having seen the incompetence, greed and cronyism of this and the last governments, that I will most lightly vote Sinn Fein in the local elections and the general election after that.

Ghandee

I just heard the FG party described on newstalk as "going from an austerity driven party, to a draconian financial dictatorship'.

Quite an apt description tbh.


Joe Higgins calling on a mass boycott of the property tax also.

the groutch

two fundamental flaws with the tax:

1. the banding system with midvalues used for applying the tax means there will be alot of people who are friends with valuers will get their properties undervalued to fall into a lower category.

2. letting the local authorities adjust the rate in 3 years time is counter-productive, as it means that rather than having to find greater efficiencies at local level, they can just up the property tax rate at will.

Ghandee

the groutch wrote: »

two fundamental flaws with the tax:

1. the banding system with midvalues used for applying the tax means there will be alot of people who are friends with valuers will get their properties undervalued to fall into a lower category.

2. letting the local authorities adjust the rate in 3 years time is counter-productive, as it means that rather than having to find greater efficiencies at local level, they can just up the property tax rate at will.

I can just see all the LA's in the country clambering over themselves to offer a write down if 15% in the cost tbh. :cool:

dvpower

the groutch wrote: »

1. the banding system with midvalues used for applying the tax means there will be alot of people who are friends with valuers will get their properties undervalued to fall into a lower category.

Valuing a property in the next lower band would save €90 - I can't imagine there would be much saving after paying the valuer.
In any case, this is a self assessment tax, so a third party valuation does not have to be accepted by Revenue any more than a self assessment valuation.

Non issue tbh.

the groutch wrote: »

2. letting the local authorities adjust the rate in 3 years time is counter-productive, as it means that rather than having to find greater efficiencies at local level, they can just up the property tax rate at will.

Allowing LAs some control over their rates will make it much more transparent to see which councils are performing and which ones aren't.
When we start to see two neighboring councils - one raising rates and one not, then real pressure will be brought to bear by residents.
There is much more incentive to be efficient when the tax is set locally.

tayto lover

Am Chile wrote: »

Well lads I know some of you haven,t being on any protests as of yet-are ye now ready to act and start protesting ? -

its all well and good commenting and giving out about the budget on Internet discussion forums, but as long that,s all people keeping doing talking about things on Internet chat forums without taking to the streets in mass numbers we won,t make much difference-there needs to a serious upping in the anti in the way we protest about things- last year in the UK protesters blocked the Westminster Bridge over proposed NHS reforms--what if for arguments sake on a certain date if we were to block bridges in different towns even for an hour to make a point and our feelings known-if we were to march up and down a few bridges blocking them up-we would bring the traffic to a standstill.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15234631

They should protest outside the homes of the Ministers. Make their homes the subject of the protest in the same way as they made our homes the targets of their attacks. I know for certain that this effected the thinking of Dermot Aherne when people protested outside his home. He didn't last long in his ministry afterwards and jumped ship. Protesting outside the Dail they can ignore.

tayto lover

K-9 wrote: »

Labour have been written off many times in the past, they've come back. They'll do it again.

SF are populist. I don't think Labour will go the way of the SDLP in the North.

Labour are next year's Greens.

loggedoff

tayto lover wrote: »

Labour are next year's Greens.

There won't be too many Labour or FG led councils after the local elections, Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown maybe.
FF/SF coalition after the GE too, FG will be sent back to the wilderness with Labour behind them.

tayto lover

loggedoff wrote: »

I have to say, having seen the incompetence, greed and cronyism of this and the last governments, that I will most lightly vote Sinn Fein in the local elections and the general election after that.

Never voted for SF before but i'm coming round to it fast now.