Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Options
1…9394969899…186

Comments

  • Options
    #2852
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Some interesting stuff in the report too on why they chose a market value tax versus site value one.

    So they didn't go for a site valued one for fear of mass protest, our refusal to cooperate by developers and speculators, and home owners were the softer touch?


  • Options
    #2853
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Well some here seem to believe everyone in Ireland can afford all increases. At least one even claimed no one in Ireland cant afford property charges. Do you agree with them?
    A lot of people will struggle, that is true. But “can’t afford” is a rather vague term. Virtually every household could come up with a few hundred euro, but in what they have to sacrifice to do so will vary quite a bit.

    It’s a bit dishonest to put lump together under the “can’t afford” umbrella, someone who may have to cancel their golf club subscription and someone who has to cancel their health insurance subscription, wouldn’t you say?

    And in any case, it is irrelevant whether we can afford it or not. I’m sure the many people who were made redundant in recent years would have quite truthfully claimed that they could not afford to be made redundant. Unfortunately, that truth made no difference.
    loggedoff wrote: »
    We are the state's 'sugar daddy'.
    Nope!

    We are the state. It seems to help some people in our challenging times to imagine a them and us scenario re the government and the people, that “they” are out to get “us”.
    The reality is that is matters almost not a jot who is in government. Apart from some minor tinkering with details, a different government will do substantially the same things as the current crew are doing, because there is no real alternative.


  • Options
    #2854
    loggedoff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 246 ✭✭loggedoff


    lugha wrote: »
    because there is no real alternative.

    Alternatives have been put forward ok, but dismissed by an inept government.
    It's all about choice, and this government chooses to attack the middle income earners, carers (who save the state a fortune) and the unemployed.
    How much extra PRSI does a banker on €500,000+ have to pay compared to someone on the average industrial wage?
    There's your answer.


  • Options
    #2855
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Ghandee wrote: »
    As already asked, my salary gets all my taxes/prsi/usc deducted at source, I'm a PAYE worker.

    It only gets the first round of taxes deducted at that stage as well.

    Taxes paid don`t end when the wages are received into hand. And many flat rate ones paid in spending are at a far higher percentage rate for the lower paid then high earners. Something conveniently forgotten (or perhaps genuinely) by many at the better end.


  • Options
    #2856
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    loggedoff wrote: »
    Alternatives have been put forward ok, but dismissed by an inept government.
    It's all about choice, and this government chooses to attack the middle income earners and the unemployed.
    How much extra PRSI does a banker on €500,000+ have to pay compared to someone on the average industrial wage?
    There's your answer.

    Alas, there isn't my answer. Unless you can demonstrate how going after the bankers alone will close a deficit of 13 billion?

    Alternatives to a property tax have been put forward. A comprehensive alternative to deal with the crisis we are in and that does not involve austere measures has not been put forward..... yet! (Maybe you would like to have a go? :) )


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2857
    loggedoff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 246 ✭✭loggedoff


    lugha wrote: »
    Alas, there isn't my answer. Unless you can demonstrate how going after the bankers alone will close a deficit of 13 billion?

    Alternatives to a property tax have been put forward. A comprehensive alternative to deal with the crisis we are in and that does not involve austere measures has not been put forward..... yet! (Maybe you would like to have a go? :) )

    This thread is about the advantages and disadvantages of a household charge/property tax. It's not a thread about closing the deficit. If you want a thread about closing the deficit why don't you open one?


  • Options
    #2858
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    lugha wrote: »
    A lot of people will struggle, that is true. But “can’t afford” is a rather vague term. Virtually every household could come up with a few hundred euro, but in what they have to sacrifice to do so will vary quite a bit.
    I see you do agree with the poster then, who said everyone can afford it.
    Yet you said a 10 year old can understand income has to cover outgoings.

    What will you sacrifice to enable payment? A little more disposable income perhaps?
    It’s a bit dishonest to put lump together under the “can’t afford” umbrella, someone who may have to cancel their golf club subscription and someone who has to cancel their health insurance subscription, wouldn’t you say?
    The general population now has golf membership has it? People in mortgage arrears would possibly have less income, than the required outgoings, wouldn`t you say?

    And in any case, it is irrelevant whether we can afford it or not. I’m sure the many people who were made redundant in recent years would have quite truthfully claimed that they could not afford to be made redundant. Unfortunately, that truth made no difference.

    The fact it was true they could not afford to be made redundant made no difference then? In the quote above, you say anyone can afford.

    Very good. You are now saying not being able to afford makes no difference, you must pay. Of course, that doesnt apply to you, only others. I guess you will also say ..."we" are all in this together... though.

    And yet.....
    lugha wrote: »
    A ten year old could tell you that you cannot indefinitely spend more money that you earn.

    I suppose an audit will sort out the redundant people who "truthfully" cant afford.


  • Options
    #2859
    Buford Tannen
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Buford Tannen


    lugha wrote: »
    I would have thought it broadly applies, unless you can get yourself a sugar daddy? Do you disagree? :confused:

    Is that what a civil service paypacket is called nowadays?


  • Options
    #2860
    Hijpo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,833 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    Lugha im sure your on a modest wage? 23k maybe? Maybe yourself an the missus are bringing a combined wage of 46k gross? Working a full 7 days a week between the two of you?
    Overtime when money gets tight? €900+ mortgage a month? 2 cars at €200+ per car loan a month to provide yourself with transport to work? Little fella in preschool at 45 a week? Car tax at 150 every three months because you cant afford the lump sum to tax it for 12 months. Petrol at 35 a week into 1 car alone. Extra taxes lumped on your pay packet now, aswell as the other taxes and charges and levies that get added to "must haves" that dont seem to get a mention as to where they go/what they are for/ how much they raise.

    At what stage will you yourself get to a point where you think "im going to struggle here"? I would be interested to know. I dont mean tell us your financials, i mean what rate of tax will have you canceling your sky subscription?


  • Options
    #2861
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    On the inability to pay issue, I'm not its been picked up on much, but there are a few measures dealing with this:
    A system of voluntary deferral arrangements for owner-occupiers will be implemented to address cases where there is an inability to pay the LPT under specified conditions:
    • Where the gross income does not exceed €15,000 (single) and €25,000 (couple)
    • For income stressed owner-occupiers who have an outstanding mortgage, an adjusted gross income limit will apply – where gross income less 80% of mortgage interest falls below €15,000/€25,000 a deferral option will be available up to the end of 2017 (when mortgage interest relief also ends).
    • Marginal relief will apply for owner-occupiers where the income or adjusted income is €10,000 above the income limit (€15,000/€25,000) to permit deferrals of up to 50% of LPT liability.
    • Interest will be charged on deferred amounts but at a lower rate (i.e. 4% per annum) than the rate charged in default cases (i.e. 8% per annum). The deferred amount, including interest, will be a charge on the property. Deferred property taxes and interest will have to be discharged on the sale/transfer of the property.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2862
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    On the inability to pay issue, I'm not its been picked up on much, but there are a few measures dealing with this:

    Some measures them.

    Any pro property tax posters here on below 15k?


  • Options
    #2863
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Hijpo wrote: »
    Lugha im sure your on a modest wage? 23k maybe? Maybe yourself an the missus are bringing a combined wage of 46k gross? Working a full 7 days a week between the two of you?
    Overtime when money gets tight? €900+ mortgage a month? 2 cars at €200+ per car loan a month to provide yourself with transport to work? Little fella in preschool at 45 a week? Car tax at 150 every three months because you cant afford the lump sum to tax it for 12 months. Petrol at 35 a week into 1 car alone. Extra taxes lumped on your pay packet now, aswell as the other taxes and charges and levies that get added to "must haves" that dont seem to get a mention as to where they go/what they are for/ how much they raise.

    At what stage will you yourself get to a point where you think "im going to struggle here"? I would be interested to know. I dont mean tell us your financials, i mean what rate of tax will have you canceling your sky subscription?


    Look in fairness I am sure there are some out there that genuinely cant afford it however for every 1 person that cant actually afford it there are 10 people that claim they cant. Like the fella on the 6 1 news the other night claiming paying the HHC would take food off his table, which I thought at the time ah thats awful until the end of the segment when it showed him on his laptop online, so clearly he has broadband which shows that yes he could actually afford it but claims not to be able to as it may mean he goes without some of his luxury items.

    A friend of mine claimed they couldnt afford it when we were talking about it earlier this year and two weeks later they were telling me how they just got a new dog again another example of someone who doesnt fall into the category of someone who genuinely cant afford it.

    And everytime I hear of a story like this from someone I know can actually afford it, it makes it harder to believe someone when they say they cant afford it even if they may be genuinely unable to pay it.


  • Options
    #2864
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Look in fairness I am sure there are some out there that genuinely cant afford it however for every 1 person that cant actually afford it there are 10 people that claim they cant. Like the fella on the 6 1 news the other night claiming paying the HHC would take food off his table, which I thought at the time ah thats awful until the end of the segment when it showed him on his laptop online, so clearly he has broadband which shows that yes he could actually afford it but claims not to be able to as it may mean he goes without some of his luxury items.

    A friend of mine claimed they couldnt afford it when we were talking about it earlier this year and two weeks later they were telling me how they just got a new dog again another example of someone who doesnt fall into the category of someone who genuinely cant afford it.

    So, work purely to pay tax is it then?


  • Options
    #2865
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    So, work purely to pay tax is it then?

    No but dont claim you cant afford something when clearly you can, because it undermines those that cant afford it.


  • Options
    #2866
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    donalg1 wrote: »
    No but dont claim you cant afford something when clearly you can.

    Any unemployed home owners in Ireland would you say?


  • Options
    #2867
    Buford Tannen
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Buford Tannen


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Look in fairness I am sure there are some out there that genuinely cant afford it however for every 1 person that cant actually afford it there are 10 people that claim they cant. Like the fella on the 6 1 news the other night claiming paying the HHC would take food off his table, which I thought at the time ah thats awful until the end of the segment when it showed him on his laptop online, so clearly he has broadband which shows that yes he could actually afford it but claims not to be able to as it may mean he goes without some of his luxury items.

    So you want people to give up even the smallest of luxuries as in a laptop with broadband just to keep the show on the road for the some of the best paid politicians and civil servants in this country.Are you broken?
    donalg1 wrote: »
    A friend of mine claimed they couldnt afford it when we were talking about it earlier this year and two weeks later they were telling me how they just got a new dog again another example of someone who doesnt fall into the category of someone who genuinely cant afford it.

    Are you p**sed off that your friend has replaced your friendship with a dog?


  • Options
    #2868
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Let's not lose the run of our selves here guys and girls.

    Never mind who can afford/can't afford to pay it. What about the people who won't pay it?

    Won't, as in won't be handing money over on a yearly basis simply to live in their own home, if the govt/council want to claim its for services, why exactly do they have an issue of linking it exactly to these services, ie, bins, water, education, health etc etc?

    On a side note, I see the respite allowance cuts equaled to 25 million this week.
    I also see the govt had a deficit on senior civil servants pension fund that needed to be plugged.


    Anyone like to have a guess at how much that deficit was worth that has now been filled?


  • Options
    #2869
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Buford Tannen wrote: »
    So you want people to give up even the smallest of luxuries as in a laptop with broadband just to keep the show on the road for the some of the best paid politicians and civil servants in this country.Are you broken?

    I dont care what luxuries people do or dont have but dont expect me to break out the violins for you when you are putting on the poor me act unnecessarily.
    Are you p**sed off that your friend has replaced your friendship with a dog?

    :confused:


  • Options
    #2870
    Buford Tannen
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Buford Tannen


    It wouldn't be 25 million Ghandee?


  • Options
    #2871
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Let's not lose the run of our selves here guys and girls.

    Never mind who can afford/can't afford to pay it. What about the people who won't pay it?

    Won't, as in won't be handing money over on a yearly basis simply to live in their own home, if the govt/council want to claim its for services, why exactly do they have an issue of linking it exactly to these services, ie, bins, water, education, health etc etc?

    On a side note, I see the respite allowance cuts equaled to 25 million this week.
    I also see the govt had a deficit on senior civil servants pension fund that needed to be plugged.


    Anyone like to have a guess at how much that deficit was worth that has now been filled?

    Bins: The Councils got rid of their bin services because people wouldnt pay for them instead they were choosing to pay other companies for them, are you now saying you want to pay the Council again? :confused:

    Water: You will be paying for that eventually so no need to worry about that one.

    Dont you already pay for health services and education? Or are you saying you want to pay a property tax instead of health services and education, as in you pay a nominal fee each year for health services. Personally I would rather pay for them when I need them and not have my rates increased each year because larry down the road visits the doctor every time he sneezes.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2872
    Buford Tannen
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Buford Tannen


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I dont care what luxuries people do or dont have

    Why bring it up in your post then?

    donalg1 wrote: »
    but dont expect me to break out the violins for you when you are putting on the poor me act unnecessarily.

    No need to break out the violins for me Donal i can well afford the the "keep our politicans in the life of luxury they've become accustomed to tax" i'm just not paying it.


  • Options
    #2873
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Buford Tannen wrote: »
    It wouldn't be 25 million Ghandee?

    One gold star for you my friend. :D


  • Options
    #2874
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Buford Tannen wrote: »
    Why bring it up in your post then?

    I brought it up to demonstrate how the majority of those that claim they cant afford it are talking sh1te.

    No need to break out the violins for me Donal i can well afford the the "keep our politicans in the life of luxury they've become accustomed to tax" i'm just not paying it.

    Dont worry I was never going to break out the violins for you. And sure if you can well afford it you wont mind paying the fines and what not next year when the Revenue come knocking.


  • Options
    #2875
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I dont care what luxuries people do or dont have but dont expect me to break out the violins for you when you are putting on the poor me act unnecessarily.
    Can you afford a violin with all these taxes?


  • Options
    #2876
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Can you afford a violin with all these taxes?

    A really really small one maybe.


  • Options
    #2877
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I brought it up to demonstrate how the majority of those that claim they cant afford it are talking sh1te.
    .

    Did you tell your friend with the dog, he is talking shite, or can you only say it about him here?


  • Options
    #2878
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Did you tell your friend with the dog, he is talking shite, or can you only say it about him here?

    No I told him and we laughed.


  • Options
    #2879
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,024 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Just to inform the debate this is an early report on the LP tax legislation. I have just glanced through it and I will be waiting to read the legislation when it is available.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1207/new-property-tax-bill-gives-revenue-more-powers-business.html

    Failure to pay the tax by July 1 2013, or by January 1 in each subsequent year will result in the application of late payment interest at 8%.

    Failure to make a return or to make a false statement in a return in an attempt to reduce the amount of the tax due are liable to penalties of up to €3,000.

    Section 151 of the new Bill obliges certain people or organisations (such as utilities companies) that have lists of property owners or billing details for electricity or gas meters, to make this information available to the Revenue Commissioners if requested.

    Failure to comply with such a request can result in a daily fine of €100 until the order is complied with. This appears to be an attempt to overcome data protection concerns which some utilities companies have about sharing their considerable databases with the Revenue Commissioners.


  • Options
    #2880
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Just to inform the debate this is an early report on the LP tax legislation. I have just glanced through it and I will be waiting to read the legislation when it is available.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1207/new-property-tax-bill-gives-revenue-more-powers-business.html

    Failure to pay the tax by July 1 2013, or by January 1 in each subsequent year will result in the application of late payment interest at 8%.

    Failure to make a return or to make a false statement in a return in an attempt to reduce the amount of the tax due are liable to penalties of up to €3,000.

    Section 151 of the new Bill obliges certain people or organisations (such as utilities companies) that have lists of property owners or billing details for electricity or gas meters, to make this information available to the Revenue Commissioners if requested.

    Failure to comply with such a request can result in a daily fine of €100 until the order is complied with. This appears to be an attempt to overcome data protection concerns which some utilities companies have about sharing their considerable databases with the Revenue Commissioners.

    The jackboot.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2881
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    It's scaremongering, Joe.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement