The rise of Belgian football

8-10

Was in Brussels on Tuesday and went out to watch the Scotland game (was too late to go to the game), got speaking to a few Belgians about the team. The most interesting insight for me was the fact that they were nearly all badmouthing Vincent Kompany. There seems to be the perception that he only plays for his club, and the past 2 years he's been awful for Belgium. In fact he was excellent on Tuesday and scored a great goal but one of the guys was saying it's the best game he's seen him play for Belgium and he doesn't understand why he's just started playing well this game when he hasn't turned up for others.

Obviously this was just the view of a few fans so no idea if this is common perception but was interesting. Definitely a view of there being more individuals than team players and i think they are still a couple of steps away from properly clicking to match their collective potential.

Also, Axel Witsel is an absolutely smashing player. Completely bossing midfield.

Rekop dog

Qualification for the WC cup isn't even guaranteed, very tough group, level with Croatia who got a draw in Brussels with the tie in Prague to come. If seeding was done for playoffs now they wouldn't be seeded and could easily draw a France/Portugul.

Latchy

FatherTed wrote: »

I will always have a hatred for Belgium after what happened in the 1982 WC qualifer in Brussels with the ref disallowing Frank Stapleton's perfectly good goal. Then with 2 minutes to go that f-ker Gerets dives just outside the box and Vandereycken whacks in the ball off the crossbar and Ceulemans nods in the rebound to win the game. We finished a point behind them and they qualified for the WC, we should have gone instead. May they all rot in hell! Probably the best ever Irish team (on paper) with Brady, Stapleton, Lawrenson, O'Leary, Whelan at the peak of their careers.

Rant over.

Father Damo wrote: »

Not to mention their league import Olivera scoring the winner in the 1997 play off. Have always been of the opinion that playing foreign league imports should be banned.

I also recall a world cup qualifier in Paris in which a perfectly good Frank Stapelton goal was also disallowed ,the French press next day were asking why it was disallowed to .It's such a pity that we never got to see that great Irish side play in any finals . Jack Charlton inherited the squad of Eoin Hand with the liks of Lawrenson, O'Leary, Whelan but Brady ,Stapelton and a few other players weren't really part of his long ball game plan .Even to have Brady on the bench and come on for the last 20 minutes of a game would have been a boost to any side .

kitakyushu

Latchy wrote: »

I also recall a world cup qualifier in Paris in which a perfectly good Frank Stapelton goal was also disallowed ,the French press next day were asking why it was disallowed to .It's such a pity that we never got to see that great Irish side play in any finals . Jack Charlton inherited the squad of Eoin Hand with the liks of Lawrenson, O'Leary, Whelan but Brady ,Stapelton and a few other players weren't really part of his long ball game plan .Even to have Brady on the bench and come on for the last 20 minutes of a game would have been a boost to any side .

Whilst the Hand era is before my time, I watched 2x full games v France in 80 and 81 recently and I think it gave me a bit of a good glimpse into what might have been going wrong in the Hand era.

It's great to have these stories of near misses and injustices but the Hand team I saw were literally like two different teams. At home v France they were completely dominant, played the game at lightning speed, confidence and flair. They also bombarded the French box with cross after cross and longballs from the back (generally from O'Leary - he had some long range passing ability it must be said!) and the French had absolutely no answer. It ended 3-2 but it could easily have been 4-0 5-0. This all suggests to me that yes indeed we did have the players prior to the arrival of Charlton.

However by comparison Ireland looked only a shell of themselves in the previous away game in Paris. They were getting the runaround from start to finish and deservedly lost imho. It wasn't even a matter of the "playing at home vs playing away psychology". It really was just a really poor performance.

From my own reading I think it was just a general problem of inconsistency and inability to get the job done away from home that cost Ireland qualifications in the early 80s. Charlton to his credit addressed that and the rest is history I suppose.

flyswatter

inforfun wrote: »

If it is up to the Belgians, we will have a combined Dutch/Belgian league tomorrow.
Their league is anything but decent.

As for their national team. If you look at the players they have, they certainly have underperformed in recent years.
But where they have 4 quality central defenders (Kompany/Vermaelen/Vertonghen and Alderweireld) they lack quality left and right backs, forcing them to play central defenders there.

Reason for their recent decent players? For a good part that has been due to a lot them being picked up by Dutch clubs in the past for their youth teams.

Vertongen has been the regular LB for Spurs this season, it's a natural position for him so he isn't just a makeshift. He's also been fantastic all season there.

ArmaniJeanss

kitakyushu wrote: »

Whilst the Hand era is before my time, I watched 2x full games v France in 80 and 81 recently and I think it gave me a bit of a good glimpse into what might have been going wrong in the Hand era.

It's great to have these stories of near misses and injustices but the Hand team I saw were literally like two different teams. At home v France they were completely dominant, played the game at lightning speed, confidence and flair. They also bombarded the French box with cross after cross and longballs from the back (generally from O'Leary - he had some long range passing ability it must be said!) and the French had absolutely no answer. It ended 3-2 but it could easily have been 4-0 5-0. This all suggests to me that yes indeed we did have the players prior to the arrival of Charlton.

However by comparison Ireland looked only a shell of themselves in the previous away game in Paris. They were getting the runaround from start to finish and deservedly lost imho. It wasn't even a matter of the "playing at home vs playing away psychology". It really was just a really poor performance.

From my own reading I think it was just a general problem of inconsistency and inability to get the job done away from home that cost Ireland qualifications in the early 80s. Charlton to his credit addressed that and the rest is history I suppose.

You'd have to put the away performance in the context of how difficult an away trip was for us back then.
e.g., looking at the wiki for that World Cup England didn't have a game on that gameday,a Tuesday, so there would have been a full set of fixtures in the English top tier on the Saturday. Players would not have been released by their clubs until the Sunday, and would arrive at different random times in Paris on the Monday, game on Tuesday.
Really bad preparation.

You know that boring meeting that decides the fixtures ; back then the FAI would try delay and delay the meeting until the fixtures in Englands group had been decided and then go into their own meeting purely with the singular aim of using as many as possible of the same dates as England.

Eventually FIFA came up with a controversial 5day non-play rule, but even then there was huge personal pressure on players to play for their club at the weekend before travelling the continent with Ireland a few days later.

G.K.

He's only played there because Assou-Ekotto is injured. CB is his place.

He's also, imo, more defensively reliable than Vermaelen, so I don't get why they play the way round that they do for the NT.

Lucan Bohs

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Could somebody give an insight into the Belgium domestic league? What other country is it on par to?, revenue, professionalism,attendance,youth set up etc etc

I've been doing a bit of research into the Belgium game as Im planning a trip to Amsterdam and the north of Belgium.

Attendances for the bigs clubs (Liege, Anderlecht, Genk and Brugge) average around 18000- 25000ish. Anderlecht's stadium is small, only 18,000, considering they're probaly the best known

For other clubs attendances range from 5 to 10k

The Belgian league is like the LoI in respect to the fact that most young players aim to make it abroad at their big neighbours (Holland) and almost like magic they're considered for the national team once they leave their domestic league.

I would say it's on par to the championship/ low Premiership

flyswatter

G.K. wrote: »

He's only played there because Assou-Ekotto is injured. CB is his place.

He's also, imo, more defensively reliable than Vermaelen, so I don't get why they play the way round that they do for the NT.

I see. I don't know about reliability, I know who I'd prefer. Although Assou Ekotto has done ok and improved that part of his game.

Nuri Sahin

A lot can change, and a lot depends on Lukaku fulfilling his potential or if Benteke can continue with his impressive start for the national team but I for one will be surprised if Belgium make it past the the quarter final in Rio.

Mexico and Columbia are the outstanding bets for 2014 considering South American (and Mexico) teams revel in their surroundings if the past provides a form guide. Sweden in the 50's were the exception but that aside..

People reference the England game before the Euros too, but it wasn't surprising to see Belgium outplay them. Difference with them and England is England know how to qualify, while Belgium know how to implode at one point or another. Right now they are looking good to qualify but again, a lot can change and the dressing room is only being held together by one or two individuals from what I've read.

elefant

EdenHazard wrote: »

Anyone know what is behind the rise of Belgium? They have been muck for the last 10 years but then suddenly a golden generation began to emerge, first with the likes of Kompany and Van den boor but now it seems like every day a young Belgian is being linked with a big European club.

who?

Paul Tergat

elefant wrote: »

who?

assume he means van den borre

Prick!

I do dislike all this "they're 25/1 for Rio, I'll be all over that" as if the posters are soooo knowledgable to beat the bookie.

They have a good team on paper but they'd be on a par with Sweden/Denmark/Czechs.

Latchy

kitakyushu wrote: »

From my own reading I think it was just a general problem of inconsistency and inability to get the job done away from home that cost Ireland qualifications in the early 80s. Charlton to his credit addressed that and the rest is history I suppose

Yes ,I do recall we were pretty sluggish away from home during that period and it crept in a bit again under the Brian Kerr era when playing away against supposedly weaker opposition, we gave away sill last minute goals .I still have some newspaper cuttings from some of the games under the Eoin Hand / Charlton era which I must upload into an album .

TheDoc

It is also worth noting they have a pretty large degree of immigrants the last three years, which will continue for the coming years aswell, so they could be benefiting from that aswell, and will continue too.

Dozen Wicked Words

Prick! wrote: »

I do dislike all this "they're 25/1 for Rio, I'll be all over that" as if the posters are soooo knowledgable to beat the bookie.

They have a good team on paper but they'd be on a par with Sweden/Denmark/Czechs.

That is true, but when you think England are as short as 16/1 I know where I would rather put my money.

elefant

Paul Tergat wrote: »

assume he means van den borre

I was thinking that might be it, but Vanden Borre was only good in Football Manager, so that doesn't make sense either?

(maybe I'm missing the joke!)

Latchy

I found the newspaper clippings of that 2-2 draw with Belgium .I remember Stapeltons diving header which was superb

kitakyushu

Great article. I wonder why the attendance was so low (considering this was Belgium's first game back after an impressive world cup)?

flyswatter

Someone earlier mentioned that there are already odds for the tournament in 2018?

Betting or even having odds for something so long away is a a bit bonkers to be honest.

Latchy

kitakyushu wrote: »

Great article. I wonder why the attendance was so low (considering this was Belgium's first game back after an impressive world cup)?

I was thinking that myself to with 2000 Irish fans in support to

I'm on a roll now uploading all my old Ireland games newspaper clippings /photos ,some I had forgotten I had .:)

kitakyushu

Latchy wrote: »

I was thinking that myself to with 2000 Irish fans in support to

I'm on a roll now uploading all my old Ireland games newspaper clippings /photos ,some I had forgotten I had .:)

If you've got anything from the 84 or 86 campaigns (esp away games) that would be the best. 82 gets a lot of coverage but not so much the next two.

LuckyLloyd

kitakyushu wrote: »

If you've got anything from the 84 or 86 campaigns (esp away games) that would be the best. 82 gets a lot of coverage but not so much the next two.

I'd love a thread where stuff like that was thrown up. Would be a great old read.

Latchy

kitakyushu wrote: »

If you've got anything from the 84 or 86 campaigns (esp away games) that would be the best. 82 gets a lot of coverage but not so much the next two.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'd love a thread where stuff like that was thrown up. Would be a great old read.

I saw my first Irish international match at Dalymount park as a kid in 1970 and I was fanatical at one time about collecting old newspaper clippings from the evening Herald and Press .I remember having a huge album of stuff from the 70s including clippings of Pele coming to Play at Dalymount with Santos and George Best with Utd ,which regrettably, I gave away .I started collecting some more around the 88 euros/Italia 90 but I'll see if there's anything in there scrapbooks from 84/86 campaigns and will stick them up .

ArmaniJeanss

kitakyushu wrote: »

Great article. I wonder why the attendance was so low (considering this was Belgium's first game back after an impressive world cup)?

Meh, looks like more than 22,000 especially with so many standing. Tax fiddle??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JewGBlb2eOk

EdenHazard

elefant wrote: »

I was thinking that might be it, but Vanden Borre was only good in Football Manager, so that doesn't make sense either?

(maybe I'm missing the joke!)

There's no joke, what I mean is Vanden Borre was highly rated in his younger years(which is seen in FM as he was a wonderkid) I think I'm right in saying he'd have emerged same time as Kompany. These were to me the first 2 of this golden generation.

BTW someone said Belgium are on a par with Sweden or Denmark...lmao...player for player they make them look terrible but of course football is a team game and the swedes and danes are among the most hard working and together teams out there

Prick!

EdenHazard wrote: »

There's no joke, what I mean is Vanden Borre was highly rated in his younger years(which is seen in FM as he was a wonderkid) I think I'm right in saying he'd have emerged same time as Kompany. These were to me the first 2 of this golden generation.

BTW someone said Belgium are on a par with Sweden or Denmark...lmao...player for player they make them look terrible but of course football is a team game and the swedes and danes are among the most hard working and together teams out there

???? So you're saying just because they have better players they're a better team than Sweden etc?

A better team is a better team no matter who's on the team :P

EdenHazard

Put it this way I'd rather draw Sweden in the group stages than Belgium.

Prick!

EdenHazard wrote: »

Put it this way I'd rather draw Sweden in the group stages than Belgium.

If you're Irish you won't be drawing anyone in the group stages

elefant

EdenHazard wrote: »

There's no joke, what I mean is Vanden Borre was highly rated in his younger years(which is seen in FM as he was a wonderkid) I think I'm right in saying he'd have emerged same time as Kompany. These were to me the first 2 of this golden generation.

BTW someone said Belgium are on a par with Sweden or Denmark...lmao...player for player they make them look terrible but of course football is a team game and the swedes and danes are among the most hard working and together teams out there

But Vanden Borre isn't part of 'this golden generation' at all and is disappearing into obscurity in the Ukraine, so I think his inclusion in this discussion is a bit strange.

EdenHazard

He was highly rated, he was the first of these wonderkids I've heard of. Lukaku might sink into oblivion but like Vanden Borre is/was highly rated(for a reason) Just because VDB didn't live up to potential doesn't mean he didn't once have great talent. From wikipedia ''While both Kompany and Vanden Borre were considered huge football talents, Vanden Borre was considered to be an even greater star-in-the-making than Kompany. Anderlecht-icon Paul Van Himst called Vanden Borre "the biggest talent he has ever seen in his career".

Why you picking up on the point anyway, all I meant was that Kompany and Vanden Boore were like the first of this highly promising batch of Belgians that I became aware of, with the aforementioned quote an ode to the talent he showed at one stage.

Latchy

Programme cover from the 1987 game .



Inside article on history of Belgium football



Previous meetings between two country's up to 1986

PaurGasm

Got laughed at in 2010 when I said Belgium will be one of the best teams in the world for Rio 16...

Ranked top 5 in the world after rio 16

EdenHazard

EdenHazard wrote: »

Did they ever have a good team before? I remember Wilmotts he was like their star player for years.

i can remember the Belgians were traditionally always big strong robust physical men and it was more of a case of the unit being worth more then the sum of their parts. A sort of international version of Stoke City if you like

That said they had Enzo Scifo and Luc Nilis who were both mustard. Nico Claesen was a decent player too.

The philosophy in recent years seems to have changed. They go for the smaller 'dinky-do' type of footballer these times and that has been down to underage work. Perhaps it was a case of being more results driven up to recent times.

kitakyushu

EdenHazard wrote: »

Did they ever have a good team before? I remember Wilmotts he was like their star player for years.

Six world cups in a row, WC semi-final in 86 and EC final in 80 and several European club trophies during the 70s/80s (tho how many of those were paid for is another discussion?).

Prick!

PaurGasm wrote: »

Got laughed at in 2010 when I said Belgium will be one of the best teams in the world for Rio 16...

Ranked top 5 in the world after rio 16

And they were right to laugh.

The players they have now are on paper exceptional, playing for some of the best clubs in Europe.

Kompany captain at Man City
Fellaini playing excellent for everton
hazard is hazard.

yet they've done nothing yet.

I don't buy all this "they'll be peaking at rio" etc.

The players are playing as well now as they may ever.

Weren't the germans supposed to be exceptional at euro 2012 after their 2010 exploits?

Ireland rugby team was supposed to peak at the 2007 world cup, they failed miserably.

Not many teams peak when they're supposed to.

Fuhrer

Prick! wrote: »

And they were right to laugh.

The players they have now are on paper exceptional, playing for some of the best clubs in Europe.

Kompany captain at Man City
Fellaini playing excellent for everton
hazard is hazard.

yet they've done nothing yet.

I don't buy all this "they'll be peaking at rio" etc.

The players are playing as well now as they may ever.

Weren't the germans supposed to be exceptional at euro 2012 after their 2010 exploits?

Ireland rugby team was supposed to peak at the 2007 world cup, they failed miserably.

Not many teams peak when they're supposed to.

They do have some great players but they're less then the sum of their parts.

Belgium is a strange country, very divided between the different groups. Three main languages, two seperate ethnic groups(sort of) that want a future apart from the other one.

The_Kew_Tour

re: teamsheet v Belgium 1986 above

It goes to show how strong that team Jack had around 86-90 when you consider that 2 players who played for Liverpool and who won European Cup medal year before could only make it onto team as a sub for the game

Third_Echelon

They created a national academy about 7 or 8 years ago according to a program i was watching. One of the footy shows on Sky Sports i think it was. Seems to be paying dividends for them now...

Rekop dog

Apart from Spain and Germany I think European teams will struggle in Rio, Columbia/Chile will be a far greater danger than Belgium will be imo! If these players were doing it in La Liga or Serie A there wouldn't be any hype here at all, it's just that they've a large probortion of their squad in the Prem now that people are getting carried away. As mentioned itt the Swiss have an equally promising group of players who've more pedigree at winning things in under age comps over the last few years but they're not getting anywhere near the same recognition.

EdenHazard

Well I knew all the Belgian players before their respective clubs with the exception of Dembele.

Sgt Pepper 64

They've been waffling on about it for years

losthorizon

titan18 wrote: »

There was Enzo Scifo in the 80s/90s who was rated quite highly

Scifio Flattered to decieve.

People have said that there players are being picked up by Dutch clubs now - that cant be the reason. The Dutch League is in the worst state I can ever remember it in.


Never have liked Belgium football especially after the 1982 WC qualifiers. Sooooo Dodgy.

The way things are going in Belgium it mightn't even exist in 5 years time.

losthorizon

Latchy wrote: »

Programme cover from the 1987 game .



Inside article on history of Belgium football



Previous meetings between two country's up to 1986

I have that programme!

Latchy

Latchy wrote: »

There was also Nico Classen at Spurs who after much expectation was a bit of a failure

To be fair Clive Allen was on fire the same season and Claesen couldnt get a look in not to forget the fact he was in a foreign country that cared little for accomodating johnny foreigner at the time

titan18

losthorizon wrote: »

Scifio Flattered to decieve.

People have said that there players are being picked up by Dutch clubs now - that cant be the reason. The Dutch League is in the worst state I can ever remember it in.


Never have liked Belgium football especially after the 1982 WC qualifiers. Sooooo Dodgy.

The way things are going in Belgium it mightn't even exist in 5 years time.

In club football, I'd agree, he was very good in the World Cups though for Belgium

grenache

tipp_Gunner wrote: »

i can remember the Belgians were traditionally always big strong robust physical men and it was more of a case of the unit being worth more then the sum of their parts. A sort of international version of Stoke City if you like

That said they had Enzo Scifo and Luc Nilis who were both mustard. Nico Claesen was a decent player too.

The philosophy in recent years seems to have changed. They go for the smaller 'dinky-do' type of footballer these times and that has been down to underage work. Perhaps it was a case of being more results driven up to recent times.

Didn't he play for either Birmingham or Huddersfield at some stage in his career?

dfx-

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

If its an amicable split (and I can't see the Belgians having a civil war) then they'd likely play on as a joint team for a few campaigns whilst the structures of two distinct FAs are put in place.

Anyone know who would get the 'better' end of the split so to speak...

kitakyushu

dfx- wrote: »

Anyone know who would get the 'better' end of the split so to speak...

#|pos|name|pob|region
12|GK|Simon Mignolet|Sint-Truiden, Belgium|Flanders
21|GK|Jean-François Gillet|Liège, Belgium|Waloon
1|GK|Thibaut Courtois|bree|Flanders
16|DF|Daniel Van Buyten (vice-captain)|chimay|Waloon
4|DF|Vincent Kompany (captain)|Uccle, Belgium|Brussels-Capital Region
5|DF|Jan Vertonghen|Sint-Niklaas, Belgium|Flanders
3|DF|Thomas Vermaelen (vice-captain)|Kapellen, Belgium|Flanders
19|DF|Nicolas Lombaerts|brugges|Flanders
2|DF|Toby Alderweireld|antwerp|Flanders
24|DF|Guillaume Gillet|Liège, Belgium|Waloon
13|DF|Laurent Ciman|Farciennes, Belgium|Waloon
22|MF|Timmy Simons|diest|Flanders
23|MF|Moussa Dembélé|Wilrijk, Belgium|Flanders
6|MF|Marouane Fellaini|Etterbeek, Belgium|Brussels-Capital Region
18|MF|Steven Defour|Mechelen, Belgium|Flanders
8|MF|Axel Witsel|Liège, Belgium|Waloon
11|MF|Nacer Chadli|Liège, Belgium|Waloon
10|FW|Eden Hazard|La Louvière, Belgium|Waloon
17|FW|Kevin Mirallas|Liège, Belgium|Waloon
14|FW|Dries Mertens|Leuven, Belgium|Flanders
9|FW|Christian Benteke|Kinshasa, DR Congo|n/a
20|FW|Jelle Vossen|Bilzen, Belgium|Flanders
7|FW|Kevin De Bruyne|Ghent, Belgium|Flanders
15|FW|Ilombe Mboyo|Kinshasa, Zaire|n/a


That's the squad from last week. Apparently Brussels doesn't divide as neatly as other towns. I learn something new every day!

BTW Possibly a few wrong there as I literally knocked it together in a couple of minutes.

Raekwon

Every time I hear the words Belgium and World Cup 86 I think of this image