The rise of Belgian football

kitakyushu

Raekwon wrote: »

Every time I hear the words Belgium and World Cup 86 I think of this image

and everytime I see that pix I post this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVlur1I12wc&t=1m09s

Father Damo

Latchy wrote: »

Programme cover from the 1987 game .

A fcukin pound? Robbing FAI gits never changed :pac:



Jesus writing the articles for programmes and such must have been some effort of research in the days before the internet!

jmayo

EdenHazard wrote: »

Did they ever have a good team before? I remember Wilmotts he was like their star player for years.

You must be a bit of a child if you can't remember them in the 80s.
Guys like Ceulemans, goalkeeper Pfaff (who rated himself the best keeper in the world until he met Maradona.) and Scifo.
In 82 they beat Argentina sometimes putting 3 guys on Maradona but in 86 he destroyed them before they finished 4th.

titan18 wrote: »

There was Enzo Scifo in the 80s/90s who was rated quite highly

He was rated second player at 90 WC.

Belgium is one team I hope don't go anywhere.
I will never forgive them for robbing, and that is the right word, us of WC spot in 1982.
Anderlecht were subsequently found to have given a ref 27,000 for a Uefa Cup game against Notts Forest and they were their best club.
Clough always said they cheated and he was proven right.

In the match in Brussels we were denied a perfectly good goal and they were gifted a cheap free to get theirs.
The Portugese ref was a disgrace.
Brady and Hand called him a cheat and a theif at the end of the match.
Brady was almost as animated the other night with Dunphy.

That Irish team lost out on goal difference to the French who got to the Semi final before Schumacker decided to go all out GBH.

Raekwon

kitakyushu wrote: »

and everytime I see that pix I post this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVlur1I12wc&t=1m09s

Touché sir

Maradona did tear them a new one in 86 though

kitakyushu

Raekwon wrote: »

Touché sir

Maradona did tear them a new one in 86 though

Haha, no worries. I was in the same boat as yourself for a long time wrt that photo. I think I first saw that photo in the build-up to WC90 and likewise filled in the gaps in the story myself. I think I only actually saw the video footage of what was *really* happening about 5 years ago.

TS, Belgium! If you hadn't let him run rings around you in 86 that that 82 Photo probably would have died away years ago

grenache

grenache wrote: »

Didn't he play for either Birmingham or Huddersfield at some stage in his career?

That was Nico Vaesen. A goalkeeper, also Belgian and yes he played for both.

On those meetings at Lansdowne with Belgium in the 80s, my dad used attend a few games at Lansdowne and he often tells me a story about Kevin Moran getting split one time because the Belgian striker at the time (not exactly sure which of them) cynically left his foot in. After a while apparently Mick McCarthy got sick of it and roared at Moran to 'LEAVE ITTTT' for the next time the ball was there to be contested. Booom!!!! next thing you know the Belgian was in a heap on the ground

kitakyushu

Deleted User wrote: »

On those meetings at Lansdowne with Belgium in the 80s, my dad used attend a few games at Lansdowne and he often tells me a story about Kevin Moran getting split one time because the Belgian striker at the time (not exactly sure which of them) cynically left his foot in. After a while apparently Mick McCarthy got sick of it and roared at Moran to 'LEAVE ITTTT' for the next time the ball was there to be contested. Booom!!!! next thing you know the Belgian was in a heap on the ground

I heard a similar story about McCarthy v Bulgaria. Bulgaria had some striker who was equally fond of diving and spitting and during a game in Sofia McCarthy bore the brunt of both. I think Ireland even lost the game on a peno? McCarthy made a mental note to get the guy back next time.

Sure enough the second game comes along and the Bulgarian is up to his diving antics again although he isn't getting much sympathy from the ref this time. Frustrated he takes to once again spitting on McCarthy. McCarthy just stands there and laughs in the guys face like a madman and proceeds to spend the rest of the match kicking they guy up and down the pitch for a bit of payback

True story (possibly).

losthorizon

jmayo wrote: »

You must be a bit of a child if you can't remember them in the 80s.
Guys like Ceulemans, goalkeeper Pfaff (who rated himself the best keeper in the world until he met Maradona.) and Scifo.
In 82 they beat Argentina sometimes putting 3 guys on Maradona but in 86 he destroyed them before they finished 4th.



He was rated second player at 90 WC.

Belgium is one team I hope don't go anywhere.
I will never forgive them for robbing, and that is the right word, us of WC spot in 1982.
Anderlecht were subsequently found to have given a ref 27,000 for a Uefa Cup game against Notts Forest and they were their best club.
Clough always said they cheated and he was proven right.

In the match in Brussels we were denied a perfectly good goal and they were gifted a cheap free to get theirs.
The Portugese ref was a disgrace.
Brady and Hand called him a cheat and a theif at the end of the match.
Brady was almost as animated the other night with Dunphy.

That Irish team lost out on goal difference to the French who got to the Semi final before Schumacker decided to go all out GBH.

There were very odd things going on that night I have to say. It was more than robbery I have to say. Much more. That team was imo Irelands most talented and I have to say a very good footballing team into the bargain.

If Belgium did break up there is also a quite large German speaking population there near the border with Aachen in Germany.

losthorizon

kitakyushu wrote: »

and everytime I see that pix I post this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVlur1I12wc&t=1m09s

Nothing to do with Belgian Football but any time somebody posts a youtube video about World Cup 1982 I post this.

Its one of my favourite youtube videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnoz4NuYMU8

secman

That night in Brussels , 25th March 1981, i remember it very well, Frank Stapleton scored a perfect goal, that was disallowed, then Cueleman scored late late in the game. Me and my wife of 4 days were at the match, on our honeymoon having got hitched on Sat 21 March 1981. Went by coach and boat, great trip, got to see United play Everton in goodison on the way back, we won 1 nil, Joe Jordan............... memories........... still hitched to same gal.......... still get to see footy no probs !

Secman

The_Kew_Tour

secman wrote: »

That night in Brussels , 25th March 1981, i remember it very well, Micky Robinson scored a perfect goal, that was disallowed, then Cueliman scored late late in the game. Me and my wife of 4 days were at the match, on our honeymoon having got hitched on Sat 21 March 1981. Went by coach and boat, great trip, got to see United play Everton in goodison on the way back, we won 1 nil, Joe Jordan............... memories........... still hitched to same gal.......... still get to see footy no probs !

Secman

Great Story.:)

Was there many Irish at that match just out of curiosity?

My Dad still gets red when he talks about that game.

Was it just those 2 big incidents or was the Ref giving them easy decisions throughout the match also?

secman

There was a few thousand Irish at the match, really warm balmy evening for March, massive thunder storm just before the game started. We really played well that night, the Belgiums were apologising to us after the match, they knew we were robbed. Driving back to London on the coach on Thursday night , Top of the Pops was on the telly on the bus, No 1 that night was that " Ah shut ura face" whole bus was singing their hearts out ! Must do a second honeymoon some day....... get herself to Old Trafford to renew our vows !
Just an aside, the courrier on the Coach knew there was a Honeymoon couple and would not say who they were, we joined in on "picking " the Honeymoon couple for the slagging....... we were eventually found out, after the match and and a huge party in one of the bedrooms . great craic.

We waz robbed that night...............


Secman

losthorizon

As well as that I think in footballing terms the 82 WC was excellent in terms of the football that was played but it also had really great surreal moments with sheiks (sp) running out onto the pitch, A fantastic Brazil team, NI playing briliantly, the breakthrough of African teams ( who were really crap up to then), Platini excellent and Maradonna messing up. All that was missing was that very talented Irish team whom I am sure would have made a big impact.



I know as a LOI supporter that if A LOI club drew a Belgian club while you could get much easier draws in the past they would have been much harder and a really good performance might see you through.

As a Cork City supporter we beat a Dutch club in Europe a few years ago and their league would be a step up excellent from the Belgium league.

spudwiser

Remember reading this a few years ago.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/soccer/12/17/blizzard.sinnott.mental/index.html

Latchy

losthorizon wrote: »

I have that programme!

Yes but mine has signed autographs all over it

:cool:

Deleted User wrote: »

To be fair Clive Allen was on fire the same season and Claesen couldnt get a look in not to forget the fact he was in a foreign country that cared little for accomodating johnny foreigner at the time

He was one of the few foreign players playing in the English league (before it became fashionable) and he got some stick from the crowds when he didn't turn it on

Father Damo wrote: »

Jesus writing the articles for programmes and such must have been some effort of research in the days before the internet!

Some fans actually hung onto every word written which in many cases ,was inaccurate due to the writer not doing his soccer homework correctly

kitakyushu wrote: »

I heard a similar story about McCarthy v Bulgaria. Bulgaria had some striker who was equally fond of diving and spitting and during a game in Sofia McCarthy bore the brunt of both. I think Ireland even lost the game on a peno?

I remember it was Kevin Moran in that game over in Sofia who chased back to tackle a Bulgarian outside the box and the twat of a referee gave a peno which was to prove costly to Ireland .( I think I might have the press cutting of that match to ) .

Interestingly enough ,a few of us in the thread mentioned how refereeing decisions in previous euro championships / world cup campaigns against Belgium and France cost us dearly and prevented us going to the finals and Bulgaria did us over once before in another match .

Back earlier in this decade , there was an article in the Irish Independent in which John Giles is interviewed and he tells of those refereeing decisions in another previous encounter with Bulgaria during the 70s as well as the other games against France and Belgium with terrible refereeing going against Ireland and the anger of been cheated out of qualifying was still fresh in many players minds .

It made for such interesting reading because I remember all the games in question so I printed the article out which I will put up ,if not later then defo before the end of the week ( it's in a file in one of many box's I have ) .The truth is it wasn't sour grapes ,we were cheated by shyte bag refereeing .

inforfun

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

You watch Eredivisie footy inforfun. Do you rate Alderweireld out of curiosity?

He formed a good tandem with Vertonghen the last few years.
But i think it was Vertonghem that made him look good.
Now he is paired with someone else, he doesnt look anything special.

Next week will be a nice test for him, away to Feyenoord against arguably the best header in the eredivisie

inforfun

losthorizon wrote: »

Scifio Flattered to decieve.

People have said that there players are being picked up by Dutch clubs now - that cant be the reason. The Dutch League is in the worst state I can ever remember it in.


Never have liked Belgium football especially after the 1982 WC qualifiers. Sooooo Dodgy.

The way things are going in Belgium it mightn't even exist in 5 years time.

If you had really read what i said, you would have read they were picked up by Dutch teams in their youth already. (Vermaelen, Vertonghen, Dembele jsut to name a few)
And while the Dutch league isnt in its most strong era, the Dutch youth policy is still better than anywhere else in Europe, bar Barca.
And that the league is in the position that it is, is only because of the money, honest or not, elsewhere.
In the past players stayed in Holland till they were 25 or older now we cant even hold on to 18 year olds who played 10 decent matches in the league.

On another note ...Cant believe the fair amount of nonsense being posted in this thread tbh.

jmayo

inforfun wrote: »

...
On another note ...Cant believe the fair amount of nonsense being posted in this thread tbh.

Care to explain ?
Maybe when people mention Belgium some of us can remember when they were a bunch of cheating theiving gits.
They had been proven to do it at top club level and the way the game we played them away was reffed in such a questionable manner it automatically leads us to conclude that 1+1=2.
As someone said that team of Hand's was probably one of our best ever teams.
They played a decent brand of football unlike a lot of the dross that has followed and that actually did get to finals.

For me Belgium is always the country that prevented one of our finest national squads from getting to our very first finals.
The team we lost out to on goal difference ended up in the semis narrowly losing to a team with a physcopath as a goalie and probably the most expensive striker in the world.

BTW you do know some of us can remember football before man utd were winning leagues every other year, before a thing called the Champions League and before we had overpriced retirees as the national manager.

Dempsey

jmayo wrote: »

Care to explain ?
Maybe when people mention Belgium some of us can remember when they were a bunch of cheating theiving gits.
They had been proven to do it at top club level and the way the game we played them away was reffed in such a questionable manner it automatically leads us to conclude that 1+1=2.
As someone said that team of Hand's was probably one of our best ever teams.
They played a decent brand of football unlike a lot of the dross that has followed and that actually did get to finals.

For me Belgium is always the country that prevented one of our finest national squads from getting to our very first finals.
The team we lost out to on goal difference ended up in the semis narrowly losing to a team with a physcopath as a goalie and probably the most expensive striker in the world.

BTW you do know some of us can remember football before man utd were winning leagues every other year, before a thing called the Champions League and before we had overpriced retirees as the national manager.

In my day.....:pac:

inforfun

jmayo wrote: »

Care to explain ?
Maybe when people mention Belgium some of us can remember when they were a bunch of cheating theiving gits.
They had been proven to do it at top club level and the way the game we played them away was reffed in such a questionable manner it automatically leads us to conclude that 1+1=2.
As someone said that team of Hand's was probably one of our best ever teams.
They played a decent brand of football unlike a lot of the dross that has followed and that actually did get to finals.

For me Belgium is always the country that prevented one of our finest national squads from getting to our very first finals.
The team we lost out to on goal difference ended up in the semis narrowly losing to a team with a physcopath as a goalie and probably the most expensive striker in the world.

BTW you do know some of us can remember football before man utd were winning leagues every other year, before a thing called the Champions League and before we had overpriced retirees as the national manager.

And those are the ones probably being bitter (understandably maybe, i am not Irish so i dont care too much) about that Belgium - Ireland match. But at least they do remember Belgian teams winning European cups and the national team doing well at EC and WC.

Maybe i am too easily annoyed but if i read things like "what did the Belgians ever do in the past that is so special" combined with talking about Belgian players (past and current) and not even being able to get those players names right......
Might be because on tv, commentators dont seem to care either as it comes to having the names right or have the pronunciation even remotely right,

I read in this thread about the low attendance of a Belgium - Ireland game in 86/87. just over 22.000.
No one really remembered what happened a few years before in that same stadium and due to that "event" the Koning Boudewijn Stadium (hint: had a different name in that era) had a reduced capacity?

These are just a few simple examples, easy to check nowadays with the internet and all that.
Still, just dump an opinion without any fact checking.

And for what it is worth, jmayo, this is not an attack on you personally. It is criticism on stuff posted in this thread and well... most of the football forum actually as it comes to stuff not about the top 6 in the EPL.

kitakyushu

inforfun wrote: »

And those are the ones probably being bitter (understandably maybe, i am not Irish so i dont care too much) about that Belgium - Ireland match. But at least they do remember Belgian teams winning European cups and the national team doing well at EC and WC.

Maybe i am too easily annoyed but if i read things like "what did the Belgians ever do in the past that is so special" combined with talking about Belgian players (past and current) and not even being able to get those players names right......
Might be because on tv, commentators dont seem to care either as it comes to having the names right or have the pronunciation even remotely right,

I read in this thread about the low attendance of a Belgium - Ireland game in 86/87. just over 22.000.
No one really remembered what happened a few years before in that same stadium and due to that "event" the Koning Boudewijn Stadium (hint: had a different name in that era) had a reduced capacity?

These are just a few simple examples, easy to check nowadays with the internet and all that.
Still, just dump an opinion without any fact checking.

And for what it is worth, jmayo, this is not an attack on you personally. It is criticism on stuff posted in this thread and well... most of the football forum actually as it comes to stuff not about the top 6 in the EPL.

FYI I was the one who first asked about the 22k attendance and yes I have heard of Heysel and yes I looked for an answer and yes I also generally try to study the game prior to my period of involvement too.

I dicounted the 5/85 disaster as an explanation for the low attendance on the grounds that Belgium drew 33k in an EC game just 2 months after the 22k v Ireland.

So even if a 60k stadium was reduced to 33k then why was there still 11k empty spots during the Ireland game? Or are you saying there was even greater restrictions in place for the Ireland game?

==

Btw when I started watching football 89 it was still called the European Cup and ManU were in the bottom third of the league if that'll calm you down any.

Jelle1880

A lot of it probably has to do with the top clubs (Anderlecht, Genk, Standard) investing heavily in youth.

Genk has always had a great youth setup, the two other ones have built state of the art youth centra in the last few years.

EdenHazard

The only weird thing about the thread was your man getting all worked up about me mentioning vanden borre haha, and also the off topic discussion about some ireland belgium matches but whatever ha.

LuckyLloyd

EdenHazard wrote: »

The only weird thing about the thread was your man getting all worked up about me mentioning vanden borre haha, and also the off topic discussion about some ireland belgium matches but whatever ha.

If the thread title is "Belgian Football" how is discussing former Belgian teams / games of interest off topic?

Methinks you should have started the "aren't there loads of Belgian players with really good stats in FIFA nowadays" thread but live and let live I guess.

kitakyushu

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If the thread title is "Belgian Football" how is discussing former Belgian teams / games of interest off topic?

Methinks you should have started the "aren't there loads of Belgian players with really good stats in FIFA nowadays" thread but live and let live I guess.

Not to mention I think Mr.Hazard actually set the ball rolling himself by asking if Belgium were any good in the past. Up to then the thread was "on topic" so to speak

What's the old quote about "Be careful what you wish/ask for" :pac:

Pro. F

jmayo wrote: »

You must be a bit of a child if you can't remember them in the 80s.

You must be shìt at maths to come out with a statement like that.

jmayo

inforfun wrote: »

And those are the ones probably being bitter (understandably maybe, i am not Irish so i dont care too much) about that Belgium - Ireland match. But at least they do remember Belgian teams winning European cups and the national team doing well at EC and WC.

Well I am Irish and I remember watching that match and feeling gutted.
I always remember Brady loosing it.

inforfun wrote: »

I read in this thread about the low attendance of a Belgium - Ireland game in 86/87. just over 22.000.
No one really remembered what happened a few years before in that same stadium and due to that "event" the Koning Boudewijn Stadium (hint: had a different name in that era) had a reduced capacity?

Ehh I was watching that match live as well just like the one in Hillsborough.

inforfun wrote: »

And for what it is worth, jmayo, this is not an attack on you personally. It is criticism on stuff posted in this thread and well... most of the football forum actually as it comes to stuff not about the top 6 in the EPL.

i do understand how people can get names wrong, especially when old age is creeping up, but foreign names can be difficult for people of different nationalities to remember or spell.
And if you don't check then it can be really gotten wrong.

I do hate it when people think football began when united won some fooking thing for the umpteem time or when they could see Barca games on their TV every other night.

EdenHazard wrote: »

The only weird thing about the thread was your man getting all worked up about me mentioning vanden borre haha, and also the off topic discussion about some ireland belgium matches but whatever ha.

How the fook is it off topic.
If you are discussing Belgian national team and someone asks if they have ever been any good, are we meant to say yeah and leave it at that ?
And one of those times when they were good happened to be at the very same time they robbed us of qualification through one of the most ineptly reffed matches we have ever played in.
Paris 2009 me ar**, what was done in Brussels wasn't just a 1 minute mistake but a 90 minute look the other way.

Pro. F wrote: »

You must be shìt at maths to come out with a statement like that.

Well maybe every kid isn't following football and fully understanding it at 2 and 3 years of age ?
How many 4 and 5 year olds fully grasp the game ?

If you were born in the latter half of the 80s then you would have fook all first hand experience of watching half decent Belgian teams.
And even if you were born in 1980 then you would have been a little kid watching them in 86 never mind 82.

efb

I was there the day football was invented in China

inforfun

jmayo wrote: »

I do hate it when people think football began when united won some fooking thing for the umpteem time or when they could see Barca games on their TV every other night.

That is the 2nd time you post something like when you quote me.
Not sure if you think i belong in the group you describe there but if you do, let me tell you i have seen the national team of my country lose 3 WC finals on TV,

And if you dont put me in that group, never mind.

The_Kew_Tour

efb wrote: »

I was there the day football was invented in China

Thats fair going:p

Latchy

inforfun wrote: »

On another note ...Cant believe the fair amount of nonsense being posted in this thread tbh.

I wasn't sure if you were referring to present present day Belgium football but you cleared that up and as said by other poster ,the thread title is The Rise Of Belgium football which generally as a topic will take in all aspects ,past and present

Below is newspaper article from the 80s in which Eoin Hand is interviewed on his time as manager of Ireland before the Charlton era and only for a perfectly good Frank Stapelton goal been disallowed against Belgian in Brussels in 1981 ,things might have been different




Below is clipping and photos from that Bulgaria match with the dubious penalty decision .








Included below is an Irish Independent article from 2004 in which John Giles laments about vital International Euro/WC matches against France and Bulgaria in which Ireland lost out on bad refereeing decisions ,including another disallowed Frank Stapeton goal in Paris and one Giles himself had disallowed against Bulgaria .









I intend putting together an album of newspaper articles ,clippings, photos etc relating to the highs of Irish International football sometime soon which I will put up in the Soccer forum .

Pro. F

jmayo wrote: »

Well maybe every kid isn't following football and fully understanding it at 2 and 3 years of age ?
How many 4 and 5 year olds fully grasp the game ?

If you were born in the latter half of the 80s then you would have fook all first hand experience of watching half decent Belgian teams.
And even if you were born in 1980 then you would have been a little kid watching them in 86 never mind 82.

Anybody born in 1980-1985, who would not have any decent memory of 1980s Belgium, would be 27-32 now. So they would not ''be a bit of a child'' by any sensible measure. Maybe it was a typo from you in the post I quoted and you actually meant ''you must have been a bit of a child.'' But judging by the pathetic efforts to boast about how old you are in all your other posts in this thread I doubt it.

Jelle1880

jmayo wrote: »

Well I am Irish and I remember watching that match and feeling gutted.
I always remember Brady loosing it.



Ehh I was watching that match live as well just like the one in Hillsborough.



i do understand how people can get names wrong, especially when old age is creeping up, but foreign names can be difficult for people of different nationalities to remember or spell.
And if you don't check then it can be really gotten wrong.

I do hate it when people think football began when united won some fooking thing for the umpteem time or when they could see Barca games on their TV every other night.



How the fook is it off topic.
If you are discussing Belgian national team and someone asks if they have ever been any good, are we meant to say yeah and leave it at that ?
And one of those times when they were good happened to be at the very same time they robbed us of qualification through one of the most ineptly reffed matches we have ever played in.
Paris 2009 me ar**, what was done in Brussels wasn't just a 1 minute mistake but a 90 minute look the other way.



Well maybe every kid isn't following football and fully understanding it at 2 and 3 years of age ?
How many 4 and 5 year olds fully grasp the game ?

If you were born in the latter half of the 80s then you would have fook all first hand experience of watching half decent Belgian teams.
And even if you were born in 1980 then you would have been a little kid watching them in 86 never mind 82.

You mean like Belgium in 1994, or when they nearly beat Brazil (only to be cheated out of the tournament) in 2002 ?

Xavi6

This has Colombia 1994 written all over it. Has Pele tipped them for Rio yet?

Nuri Sahin

inforfun wrote: »

He formed a good tandem with Vertonghen the last few years.
But i think it was Vertonghem that made him look good.
Now he is paired with someone else, he doesnt look anything special.

Next week will be a nice test for him, away to Feyenoord against arguably the best header in the eredivisie

Not surprising that. There was talk early doors of him being Vertonghen 2.0 which is funny looking back considering he never stood out in any matches I've seen of Ajax since he joined, and as you eluded to, he was fortunate to be playing with one of the best defenders in a long time to grace the league.

Definitely going to watch the game myself on Sunday, nice early match to wake up to

Latchy

LISBON, Oct 24 (Reuters)

- Sporting have hired former Belgium forward Franky Vercauteren to replace sacked coach Ricardo Sa Pinto as they attempt to recover from a dreadful start to the season, the Portuguese Premier League club said on Wednesday.

The Belgian was hired on a one-year contract and has the tough task of rebuilding a demoralised Sporting side.

The Lisbon team are 12th in the league, with six points from six matches, suffered an early domestic cup exit against Moreirense last weekend and are bottom of Europa League Group G with one point from two games.

Sporting have failed to win the league title since 2002 and have finished 16, 28 and 36 points behind the champions in the last three seasons.

They last qualified for the Champions League four years ago.

Sporting fired Sa Pinto earlier this month following a 3-0 defeat at Hungarian side Videoton in the Europa League. (Reporting by Daniel Alvarenga; Editing by Ken Ferris)

I remember Vercauten as a great player and a regular in the Belgium national side .