Were Protestants driven out of the Free State/Republic?

owenc

Qualitymark wrote: »

The best writing on this and almost anything else is by Hubert Butler - one of the Irish writers who should be ranked with Swift and Shaw, but who has been almost forgotten. Superb long-feature journalism.

A couple of points. Ne Temere is, I think, central. Take my own family; my great-grandparents' 12 children were baptised Catholic (6) and christened into the Church of Ireland (6), the girls following their mother's religion and the boys their father's. They were effectively brought up in the established (Protestant) church. Half of them became Catholic in the later years; one of the girls after marrying a Catholic, another through mysticism, a third being bullied into it; the boys seemingly through conversion. But the Ne Temere requirement that the children of a 'mixed' marriage be all brought up Catholic was at the time routinely ignored. Not so later, when the Catholic church became the muscular bully it was from later in the 20th century.

We forget completely now that Ireland was a land of utter bigotry, both Catholic and Protestant, before the Free State.

Finally, we all point to various revolutionaries and say "But they were Protestant". Well, yes, they were, but they were mostly 'dissenters', which is to say Presbyterians, Methodists, etc - who were, like Catholics, excluded from many professions and from serving in their country's parliament, though they did not face the same acerbic contempt and utter disadvantage.

A similar thing happened in my dads family. My granda was a presbyterian but he baptised all kids catholics. But right now almost half of my family is presbyterian because they converted back again. One of my aunts may be converting too next year.My dad was the only one in his family to not marry a protestant. Its kind of similiar to protestant (although catholic our family kinda is protestant) converting to catholism due to the are they live in.

But the ne temera had a MASSIVE effect on the protestant population. If you come up here and do family trees alot of catholics will have g or gg grandparents that were protestant - I would go to say. The majority have at least one close ancestor who was protestant

Solair

One other aspect to it that I've come across was smaller, minority Protestant communities being subsumed by the Church if Ireland due to complications around marriages in the old days.

The Quakers for example seem to have disappeared due to both the C of I & Catholic Church being very inflexible about 'mixed marriages' in the early half of the 20th century.

There had been quite a lot of prominent Quakers in Ireland in the 19th century and they'd often been very socially aware and influential when it came to positive social change due to having a very humanist outlook on life.

Odd really that they seem to have largely vanished.

getz

Solair wrote: »

One other aspect to it that I've come across was smaller, minority Protestant communities being subsumed by the Church if Ireland due to complications around marriages in the old days.

The Quakers for example seem to have disappeared due to both the C of I & Catholic Church being very inflexible about 'mixed marriages' in the early half of the 20th century.

There had been quite a lot of prominent Quakers in Ireland in the 19th century and they'd often been very socially aware and influential when it came to positive social change due to having a very humanist outlook on life.

Odd really that they seem to have largely vanished.

the quakers did a lot of good work in Ireland,not least in feeding the irish people in the famine, but like other small religions found, that after irish independence ,it was hard to get your children into catholic run schools and hospitals, as they discriminated as who would get beds or places.in the jewish case ,many jewish doctors had to leave the country to practice.

Qualitymark

The Quakers haven't gone away, you know

http://www.quakers-in-ireland.ie

But in the 18th and 19th century they were 'disowned' (they had to leave their Meeting and couldn't be part of the Society of Friends any more) if they married out. That thinned the ranks gradually.

Then there was the mass Catholic era of the 20th century. And now the growing atheism of society.

The network of Quaker families that made their names in business have largely left the business world and gone into the professions or trades. And many Quakers today are married out - perhaps even most.

But Irish Quakers still run surprising things, including a great nursing home co-run with the Jews in the Dublin Mountains, a research library, social activism including helping to run a school in Ramallah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramallah_Friends_Schools

and so on.

An Sionnach Glic

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What prominent Irish nationalists were Presbyterian though?

Ernest Blyth, first Minister for Finance of the Irish Free State, Irish-language revivalist and later managing director of the Abbey Theatre; a North of Ireland Presbyterian. And that's just off the top of my head.

philstar

Qualitymark wrote: »

The Quakers haven't gone away, you know

http://www.quakers-in-ireland.ie

But in the 18th and 19th century they were 'disowned' (they had to leave their Meeting and couldn't be part of the Society of Friends any more) if they married out. That thinned the ranks gradually.

they became known as soupers during the famine

pedroeibar1

philstar wrote: »

they became known as soupers during the famine

No they did not.

InTheTrees

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

No they did not.

Right.

The Quakers were heroric in their unconditional support for the needy.

Wernt they?

Qualitymark

a) Protestant Irish nationalists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Irish_nationalists

b) Quakers in the Famine

http://books.google.ie/books?id=8Al6KL1IlJkC&pg=PA284&dq=quakers+famine+good&hl=en&sa=X&ei=n05YUuqwM4XX7AaisoDoAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=quakers%20famine%20good&f=false

Santa Cruz

Rebelheart wrote: »

"Protestants" or loyalists? Ah.

I have absolutely no problem with active loyalists being targeted. But I can see their interest in dressing this up as the targeting of "Protestants", as if all Protestants share their counter-revolutionary hatred for the native Irish ruling Ireland free from foreign interference.

Have a good read of "Political killings in Cork 1920=1922" and see can you stand over the actions of Cork No. 1 Brigade

HansHolzel

Certain names attached to claims on this subject have to be taken with a very large dose of salt indeed.

Here's a list of four off the top of my head:

Eoghan Harris
Peter Hart
Gerard Murphy
Eunan O'Halpin

Hart, who died in 2010, must be squirming in his grave after he was exposed for interviewing dead men who had been at Kilmichael.

Qualitymark

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Have a good read of "Political killings in Cork 1920=1922" and see can you stand over the actions of Cork No. 1 Brigade

Maybe also read other accounts of the same things.

tdv123

I'm not sure they targeted Protestants specifically, they may have during the Belfast pogroms in 1922, but Tom Barry mentions in his book that for every nationalist house that was burnt by the British 2 Loyalist houses were burnt in return by the IRA. Maybe that explains drop.

An Coilean

tdv123 wrote: »

I'm not sure they targeted Protestants specifically, they may have during the Belfast pogroms in 1922, but Tom Barry mentions in his book that for every nationalist house that was burnt by the British 2 Loyalist houses were burnt in return by the IRA. Maybe that explains drop.

Those attacks were fairly localised and occured only over a few months at the end of the war of independance, its unlikely that they had much of an impact on the Protestant population.

LennoxR

Discussed in quite a bit of detail here http://www.theirishstory.com/2010/08/23/the-irish-war-of-independence-a-religious-war-part-iii/#.Umb9LHCshNc

and here. http://www.theirishstory.com/2010/08/16/the-irish-war-of-independence-%E2%80%93-a-religious-war-part-ii/#.Umb9THCshNc

Also the Dunmanway massacre of April 1922 discussed here. http://www.theirishstory.com/2011/11/01/peter-hart-and-the-dunmanway-killings-controversy/#.Umb9dHCshNc

But the latest study by Andy Bielenberg in UCC concluded that violence against Southern Protestants was responsible only for a small proportion of post-independence Protestant emigration. A much larger part was accounted for by the withdrawal of the British officials and armed forces from the territory of the Free State after 1922.

Qualitymark

I think a lot of people left because their loyalty was to England, and they didn't feel they could commit the same loyalty to Ireland. A letter in The Irish Times today:

http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/polyester-protestants-and-sectarianism-1.1569491?page=3

We had our own Defence Force and, to their credit, many Protestants chose to serve Ireland and some suffered for so doing. A brother officer of mine in later years, a farmer’s son and staunch Anglican all his life, was thrown out of the house and disinherited for joining the Irish Army.

InTheTrees

Qualitymark wrote: »

I think a lot of people left because their loyalty was to England, and they didn't feel they could commit the same loyalty to Ireland.

I think religion was a major part of it. In my experience in the late 60's/70's, there were no protestant state schools so I went to a subsidized (by the 1922 treaty?) protestant boarding school.

But there was no money for a protestant curriculum so we had to use an english curriculum which meant taking "O" levels and "A" levels usually taught by teachers imported from england. SO no irish language. We were then ready for english unversities... and then inevitably, a life in england. I'd say 90% of irish protestant kids I knew ended up working and living in england. It was always impressed on us that without the irish educational qualifications there would be no jobs in public service, cops, etc.

So was it "loyalty"? I dont think so, there was never a choice. And I moved to america (after uni in london) anyway.

An Coilean

InTheTrees wrote: »

I think religion was a major part of it. In my experience in the late 60's/70's, there were no protestant state schools so I went to a subsidized (by the 1922 treaty?) protestant boarding school.

But there was no money for a protestant curriculum so we had to use an english curriculum which meant taking "O" levels and "A" levels usually taught by teachers imported from england. SO no irish language. We were then ready for english unversities... and then inevitably, a life in england. I'd say 90% of irish protestant kids I knew ended up working and living in england. It was always impressed on us that without the irish educational qualifications there would be no jobs in public service, cops, etc.

So was it "loyalty"? I dont think so, there was never a choice. And I moved to america (after uni in london) anyway.

Up until the 60/early 70s there was no free secondary education for anyone, thats why so many people left school early.
I don't think there was any difference in funding for protestant schools than catholic schools, infact, I think there was and possibly still is aditional funding available to protestant schools to ensure they dont disapear compleatly.

As for curriculum, there was nothing to prevent the protestant schools from taking on the national curriculum rather than option for an English curriculum(It was a national curriculum rather than a catholic curriculum, the curch was allowed to control the majority of schools, but the state insisted on control of the curriculum) it was a choice that they made for themselves, mainly because parents wanted their chldren prepared for English universities and civil service exams, not to mention an aversion to the Irish language in some cases.

Qualitymark

InTheTrees wrote: »

I think religion was a major part of it. In my experience in the late 60's/70's, there were no protestant state schools so I went to a subsidized (by the 1922 treaty?) protestant boarding school.

But there was no money for a protestant curriculum so we had to use an english curriculum which meant taking "O" levels and "A" levels usually taught by teachers imported from england. SO no irish language. We were then ready for english unversities... and then inevitably, a life in england. I'd say 90% of irish protestant kids I knew ended up working and living in england. It was always impressed on us that without the irish educational qualifications there would be no jobs in public service, cops, etc.

So was it "loyalty"? I dont think so, there was never a choice. And I moved to america (after uni in london) anyway.

Mmmwell, considering how central Protestants were to the preservation and revival of Irish in the 19th and early 20th century, it's kind of ironic that this state-subsidised school didn't offer it on the curriculum and give its students the chance to serve their country as public servants!

fryup

they were driven out in the early days of the state and after that...they were cold shouldered out