How do you fix a problem like the PS wage bill?

fliball123

creedp wrote: »

Just thought I'd throw this into the mix. Unfortunately, I don't have a link but I can quote from an article in the Irish Industrial News by Brian Sheehan (25/04/12) on private sector pay Overturning "anecdotal evidence" about widespread pay cuts in the private sector in the teeth of the recession, the ESRI has confirmed that firms were reluctant to cut wages "in order to avoid productivity losses associated with worker dissatisfaction or higher rates of labour turnover".

The article goes on the say Despite an "unprecedented fal in output and rise in unemployment", both average earnings and average labour costs actually increased marginally over the period.

The problem is the "anecdotal evidence" is just so much more supportive of the narrative cut somebody else and leave me alone ..

This is a misnomer this article referred to companies that still exist and did not ask any of the 5 per week that went to the wall since the start of 2010 where I had the experience of seeing a private sector co go from the bubble to bust and believe me pay cuts, hour cuts and statutory redundancy was the order of the day.....So throw it into the mix all you want but make sure you include these companies aswell

creedp

fliball123 wrote: »

This is a misnomer this article referred to companies that still exist and did not ask any of the 5 per week that went to the wall since the start of 2010 where I had the experience of seeing a private sector co go from the bubble to bust and believe me pay cuts, hour cuts and statutory redundancy was the order of the day.....So throw it into the mix all you want but make sure you include these companies aswell

That's what survey's do - they ask a sample and extrapolate to the full population. The point here is that you don't like the result .. I'm sure if it said the opposite you'd be raving about how accurate it was!

kippy

fliball123 wrote: »

This is a misnomer this article referred to companies that still exist and did not ask any of the 5 per week that went to the wall since the start of 2010 where I had the experience of seeing a private sector co go from the bubble to bust and believe me pay cuts, hour cuts and statutory redundancy was the order of the day.....So throw it into the mix all you want but make sure you include these companies aswell

Why would you include those companies?

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

This is a misnomer this article referred to companies that still exist and did not ask any of the 5 per week that went to the wall since the start of 2010 where I had the experience of seeing a private sector co go from the bubble to bust and believe me pay cuts, hour cuts and statutory redundancy was the order of the day.....So throw it into the mix all you want but make sure you include these companies aswell

The fact is if you worked in the private sector (outside of construction and construction-related industries), your experience since 2008 has been that pay freezes in the initial years have been followed by pay rises in the last 18 months to two years. Your pay is above 2008 levels. There has been an increased risk of job loss but not hugely so outside of construction-dependent jobs.

In the public sector, if you were in a temporary job in 2008, you are nearly certain to be gone now. If you are in a permanent job, you have seen two pay cuts and significant productivity demands and changes in the workplace and your pay is below 2008 levels (unless you were at the bottom of your payscale in 2008).

In the construction-related areas of the private sector, the effects have been dramatic with jobs just disappearing overnight. This has had an effect in estate agencies, solicitors, kitchen suppliers, certain parts of retail (Atlantic Homecare, furniture, white goods) etc. as well as architects, engineers, electricians and labourers. However, it is a common mistake to suggest that the experience of the construction-related part of the private sector is the same as the experience of the private sector overall. It is not. A construction bubble burst and the foolish who did not see it coming got caught.

If you work in IT, and are any good, keep yourself trained and are prepared to move jobs, you are significantly better off in 2012 than in 2008. Ditto the pharmaceuticals industry. What the ESRI are showing, and others as well, is that earnings in the private sector for those who are working are on the way up.

kippy

Godge wrote: »

What the ESRI are showing, and others as well, is that earnings in the private sector for those who are working are on the way up.

And let me state, this is a good thing for everyone.
No one here is trying to say that this shouldn't be the case, merely that reports that the private sector has been completely decimated in all of this, while the public sector "escape" scott free are wide of the mark.

Farmer Pudsey

Every body talks about how wages have risen in the private sector, maybe in IT and multi-nationals however in the minimun wages area's there has been downward pressure, retail, supermarkets, cleaning, nursing homes etc, these private sector workers have seen no wage rise and are unlikly to in the near future. Gennerally any work dealing with the domestic economy is wage static or falling.

Also self-employed workers have seen there area's encroched by workers from the building sector such as agri-contracting, small maintenance contractors in the private sector etc. Increase in wages have not been common place by any means.

This can be seen from average industrial wages where i have seen no information that there has been any increase that would look lige a general increase in private sector wages. I think that this is just PR from public sector workers and unions, it is not by any means widespread.

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Every body talks about how wages have risen in the private sector, maybe in IT and multi-nationals however in the minimun wages area's there has been downward pressure, retail, supermarkets, cleaning, nursing homes etc, these private sector workers have seen no wage rise and are unlikly to in the near future. Gennerally any work dealing with the domestic economy is wage static or falling.

Also self-employed workers have seen there area's encroched by workers from the building sector such as agri-contracting, small maintenance contractors in the private sector etc. Increase in wages have not been common place by any means.

This can be seen from average industrial wages where i have seen no information that there has been any increase that would look lige a general increase in private sector wages. I think that this is just PR from public sector workers and unions, it is not by any means widespread.

How can there be downward pressure in the minimum wages area? A minimum wage job is a minimum wage job and cannot be decreased unless the government cuts the minimum wage. This does not make any sense at all from any point of view. Can you explain?

As for agri-contracters and small maintenance contracters, these were among the biggest rip-off merchants of the Celtic Tiger era and rode on the coat-tails of the construction industry. It is no surprise that they have seen cuts, many of them lucky to survive given the extremely poor service they provided in the good years. They would fall within the area of construction-related industries I mentioned some posts ago.

So both of the examples you give are either nonsensical or misleading yet you think it is all PR from public sector workers and unions?

tayto lover

Godge wrote: »

How can there be downward pressure in the minimum wages area? A minimum wage job is a minimum wage job and cannot be decreased unless the government cuts the minimum wage. This does not make any sense at all from any point of view. Can you explain?

As for agri-contracters and small maintenance contracters, these were among the biggest rip-off merchants of the Celtic Tiger era and rode on the coat-tails of the construction industry. It is no surprise that they have seen cuts, many of them lucky to survive given the extremely poor service they provided in the good years. They would fall within the area of construction-related industries I mentioned some posts ago.

So both of the examples you give are either nonsensical or misleading yet you think it is all PR from public sector workers and unions?

It sums up how easy it is to brow-beat people into thinking that they are hard done-by and that everyone is doing well except you. The old Public v Private smokescreen is alive and well.

Idbatterim

The fact is if you worked in the private sector (outside of construction and construction-related industries), your experience since 2008 has been that pay freezes in the initial years have been followed by pay rises in the last 18 months to two years. Your pay is above 2008 levels. There has been an increased risk of job loss but not hugely so outside of construction-dependent jobs.

Im not in construction or a related industry and I have had to cut my own pay.

In the public sector, if you were in a temporary job in 2008, you are nearly certain to be gone now. If you are in a permanent job, you have seen two pay cuts and significant productivity demands and changes in the workplace and your pay is below 2008 levels (unless you were at the bottom of your pay scale in 2008).

of course they got rid of all the easy targets, the big difference though in private sector is you are paid what you are worth and what the company can afford, this isnt the case in the PS. Also the BS about the pay cuts is a smoke screen, merely saying you have had a pay cut is a joke! Hypothetical situation here, Enda Kenny comes out and says I have had 2 pay cuts in previous two years, of €1 per year. What actually matters here? should he now escape because he can have claimed to have cut his pay twice or does his current remuneration matter more?

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

How can there be downward pressure in the minimum wages area? A minimum wage job is a minimum wage job and cannot be decreased unless the government cuts the minimum wage. This does not make any sense at all from any point of view. Can you explain?

As for agri-contracters and small maintenance contracters, these were among the biggest rip-off merchants of the Celtic Tiger era and rode on the coat-tails of the construction industry. It is no surprise that they have seen cuts, many of them lucky to survive given the extremely poor service they provided in the good years. They would fall within the area of construction-related industries I mentioned some posts ago.

So both of the examples you give are either nonsensical or misleading yet you think it is all PR from public sector workers and unions?

Pleas read a post proparly in the post I stated ''minimun wages area's'' these are workers that are above the said wage up to 12 euro/hour. From talking to people ( all my views are not formed from my mates in the teaclub/room in the morning) a lot of them have found that there hours have been reduced as employeers employ into the area on lower wages. Also a lot have found that the copany that they work closes down and the next employer or old bass new company has reduced wages.

Please get out of you shell and look around and listen to other people not just a small circle of middle income workers in secure employment and public servants.

It is very condescending to speak about small subcontractors/self employed workers they cannot go to the ATM on thursday/friday and be gauranteed there wages. Call them the rip-off merchants of the celtic tiger boom is a bit rich when the real rip-off merchants were the benchmarked public servants who have ridden through the recession virtually uneffected. These are the same inviduals that we need to get this country up and going again and they recieve very little help from the paracitidc behaviour of government services.

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Pleas read a post proparly in the post I stated ''minimun wages area's'' these are workers that are above the said wage up to 12 euro/hour. From talking to people ( all my views are not formed from my mates in the teaclub/room in the morning) a lot of them have found that there hours have been reduced as employeers employ into the area on lower wages. Also a lot have found that the copany that they work closes down and the next employer or old bass new company has reduced wages.

Please get out of you shell and look around and listen to other people not just a small circle of middle income workers in secure employment and public servants.

It is very condescending to speak about small subcontractors/self employed workers they cannot go to the ATM on thursday/friday and be gauranteed there wages. Call them the rip-off merchants of the celtic tiger boom is a bit rich when the real rip-off merchants were the benchmarked public servants who have ridden through the recession virtually uneffected. These are the same inviduals that we need to get this country up and going again and they recieve very little help from the paracitidc behaviour of government services.

I am not a public servant so direct your anger elsewhere. you know nothing of what I do for a living.

If you form your views "from talking to people", you are going to suffer from reinforced bias, it is an inevitable consequence of small island we live on with its small-minded people.

I prefer to look at data and beyond the headline data into underlying information. The public sector as a whole have taken two pay cuts and given significant productivity increases, that is a fact. Unlike the private sector, these cuts in pay have been evenly spread across the public sector.

In the private sector, the construction industry and related industries have been severely damaged which is what was coming to them as the bubble burst. Lots of people have been caught as a result, some of them deservedly so and as someone who had his fair share of cowboy contractors doing shoddy work at exorbitant prices during the Celtic Tiger days, I don't feel much sympathy. They not only killed the golden goose, many of them, they cooked and ate it afterwards.

But there are parts of the private sector doing quite well thank you. The owner of Insomnia was on the radio the other morning, his business is up 5% in the year like-for-like and even more if you include the new shops. Fair play to him, I say, it is more of him we need than the shysters who ripped us off for years. But there is no public servant who is seeing increases like that (10% or more when you include the new shops).

Finally, 12 euro per hour which your minimum wage friends are on, translates into over €25,000 per year. Gosh, they are so hard up they should get jobs as public servants, but wait, a services attendant only starts at €19,559 while a clerical officer starts at €20,859. Even an administrative officer who requires an honours degree starts at €29,922 - see proof in link.

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/circ182010.pdf


It is about time that the lies stopped. You think minimum wage level jobs are €12 per hour so you should start campaigning for public sector pay increases. You have no idea.

turbobaby

Godge wrote: »

But there is no public servant who is seeing increases like that (10% or more when you include the new shops).

Dead right they are not campaigning for that level of increases, as there is practically no risk when working for the gov't, unlike owning a chain of coffee shops.

1979Bob

A little bit of misdirection in your reply there.
€12/hour x 40 hour week x 52 weeks gives just under €25000.
The salary you quote for a CO is for a 35 hour week (actually a little less but lets keep it simple) and yes I know this for a fact as I worked as a temp CO for the summer. And dont forget that salary will go up with increments and it is not a tough job. So what rate does that give? €11.42. So lets recap, an entry level position starts on €11.42/hour. That is not a bad wage to start on.
Of course, any new entrant will start on €19814 (thats what I was on during the summer) Per hour that is €10.92. Still not a bad wage for an entry level position that requires only a leaving cert (and not a very good one at that)
Lets get the facts right and compare like with like before we move on to trying to come to some conclusions.

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Every body talks about how wages have risen in the private sector, maybe in IT and multi-nationals however in the minimun wages area's there has been downward pressure, retail, supermarkets, cleaning, nursing homes etc, these private sector workers have seen no wage rise and are unlikly to in the near future. Gennerally any work dealing with the domestic economy is wage static or falling.

Incorrect, my mam has still gotten her payrise each year working in Dunnes Stores, so has my sister in the hair salon she works in.

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

I am not a public servant so direct your anger elsewhere. you know nothing of what I do for a living.

If you form your views "from talking to people", you are going to suffer from reinforced bias, it is an inevitable consequence of small island we live on with its small-minded people.

I prefer to look at data and beyond the headline data into underlying information. The public sector as a whole have taken two pay cuts and given significant productivity increases, that is a fact. Unlike the private sector, these cuts in pay have been evenly spread across the public sector.

In the private sector, the construction industry and related industries have been severely damaged which is what was coming to them as the bubble burst. Lots of people have been caught as a result, some of them deservedly so and as someone who had his fair share of cowboy contractors doing shoddy work at exorbitant prices during the Celtic Tiger days, I don't feel much sympathy. They not only killed the golden goose, many of them, they cooked and ate it afterwards.

But there are parts of the private sector doing quite well thank you. The owner of Insomnia was on the radio the other morning, his business is up 5% in the year like-for-like and even more if you include the new shops. Fair play to him, I say, it is more of him we need than the shysters who ripped us off for years. But there is no public servant who is seeing increases like that (10% or more when you include the new shops).

Finally, 12 euro per hour which your minimum wage friends are on, translates into over €25,000 per year. Gosh, they are so hard up they should get jobs as public servants, but wait, a services attendant only starts at €19,559 while a clerical officer starts at €20,859. Even an administrative officer who requires an honours degree starts at €29,922 - see proof in link.

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/circ182010.pdf


It is about time that the lies stopped. You think minimum wage level jobs are €12 per hour so you should start campaigning for public sector pay increases. You have no idea.

First of all an apprentice will not start on more money than a labourer however at the end of the apprenticeship he will earn way more than the labourer/general operative not just in the contruction industry but in an skills based industry. A service attendant or any general low skilled job will find over there career that their wages do not double or treble in real term's durind there lifetime, even an apprentice after his initial training period will not see his wages double in real terms during his career. Neither will any of these workers enjoy a gold plated pension or even manage to save for one.

Most sole-traders/self employed small buisnesss people who depend on manual strenght to earn a living by the time they get to there late fifties find that there earning ability reduces not so in Public service jobs, actually accross the private sector this happens to at least 50% of low skilled workers as younger low skilled workers enter the workforce and haveing a newer skill level replace them.

A person entering the public service has a career ahead of them and on average most will end there careers with incomes far in excess of what they start with.

Just using raw data as you talk about the average public service pension at present is in the region of 24K yes some workers retire on less but a lot retire on more and some of these have there pension topped up with partial contributart Old age pension.

kceire wrote: »

Incorrect, my mam has still gotten her payrise each year working in Dunnes Stores, so has my sister in the hair salon she works in.

Were these pay rises or increments I for one know of one nursing home who have reduced the hours of it staff that have looked for pay rise's and hired more staff as any staff are only gauranteed between 25-30 hours. This is right accross other sectors, such as branded convience shops and some supermarkets.

It is also commonplace in the transport industry and now we are seeing multinationals/high skills area in the private sector looking for workers to start on low wages or even to work for nothing for6-12months.

Not everybody in the private sector works for Google or Intel in the private sector

woodoo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Were these pay rises or increments

See folks.. there is a difference

Farmer Pudsey

woodoo wrote: »

See folks.. there is a difference

First of all I was being sarcastic and as well if you check my posts in general I have diagreed with cutting increments, allowances and I have stated that cuts should be accross the borad and should involve a reversel of benchmarking.

Also it gets repeditive when we get a lot of happy clappy thanks from the same sources.

It a bit like in an American Football all high fives but nothing new

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

I am not a public servant so direct your anger elsewhere. you know nothing of what I do for a living.

.

have reread the post you replied where did I say that you were a public servant I did post


Please get out of you shell and look around and listen to other people not just a small circle of middle income workers in secure employment and public servants.

However that could not be an construed as a indicating that you were a PS and it was in reply to you post about rip-off merchants and I am not directing anger anywhere rather I am indicating the imbalances in what is happening in our economy.

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Were these pay rises or increments I for one know of one nursing home who have reduced the hours of it staff that have looked for pay rise's and hired more staff as any staff are only gauranteed between 25-30 hours. This is right accross other sectors, such as branded convience shops and some supermarkets.

Pay increases. Dunnes still looking for staff, Aldi/Lidl are looking for staff, Eurospar beside me cant get staff, my mate is the manager.

I know one guy who left his job the day of Halloween and was in another job the same day the following week, better money too. its not right across any sector either as you seem to claim.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

to work for nothing for 6-12months.

Where?

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Not everybody in the private sector works for Google or Intel in the private sector

And not every body in the Public Sector earns big bucks, gets a gold plated pension, most earn modest salaries and pay a large chunk of the pension pots with contributions and levies.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Also it gets repeditive when we get a lot of happy clappy thanks from the same sources.

It a bit like in an American Football all high fives but nothing new

It has gotten so funny on here, that if i wanted to earn some thanks today, all i have to post is CUT PS PAY!

woodoo

kceire wrote: »

Pay increases. Dunnes still looking for staff, Aldi/Lidl are looking for staff, Eurospar beside me cant get staff, my mate is the manager.

That is shocking and just shows up the problems in our generous welfare system. If people would rather be unemployed than work in an very well known Irish company like Dunnes Stores. Very worrying.

Jaysoose

woodoo wrote: »

That is shocking and just shows up the problems in our generous welfare system. If people would rather be unemployed than work in an very well known Irish company like Dunnes Stores. Very worrying.

How do you know this is the reason he cant staff?

thebman

kceire wrote: »

Pay increases. Dunnes still looking for staff, Aldi/Lidl are looking for staff, Eurospar beside me cant get staff, my mate is the manager.

If you can't find staff with current unemployment figures, it is either an exceptional part of the country that has retained 0% unemployment and is impossible to get to from anywhere else or they are doing it wrong.

If they are offering minimum wage, there are plenty of people I know unemployed that would take the job.

Godge

1979Bob wrote: »

A little bit of misdirection in your reply there.
€12/hour x 40 hour week x 52 weeks gives just under €25000.
The salary you quote for a CO is for a 35 hour week (actually a little less but lets keep it simple) and yes I know this for a fact as I worked as a temp CO for the summer. And dont forget that salary will go up with increments and it is not a tough job. So what rate does that give? €11.42. So lets recap, an entry level position starts on €11.42/hour. That is not a bad wage to start on.
Of course, any new entrant will start on €19814 (thats what I was on during the summer) Per hour that is €10.92. Still not a bad wage for an entry level position that requires only a leaving cert (and not a very good one at that)
Lets get the facts right and compare like with like before we move on to trying to come to some conclusions.

You miss the point. Farmer Pudsey said that €12 per hour was a minimum wage type job and all his friends that he talks to in the public sector are on that. All you are showing is that entry-level jobs in the public sector are at the same level as the jobs Farmer complains about in the private sector.

Gumbo

thebman wrote: »

If you can't find staff with current unemployment figures, it is either an exceptional part of the country that has retained 0% unemployment and is impossible to get to from anywhere else or they are doing it wrong.

If they are offering minimum wage, there are plenty of people I know unemployed that would take the job.

Tell them to apply then.

1. Dunnes Stores Charlestown.
2. Eurospar Finglas.

So both of them in working class suburbs, and his problem too is they get people in for two weeks then they just quit.

Dunnes pays above mimimum wage with an incrememt system in place too for flexi time staff. BH pay and increased pay for Sunday's too.

Zulu

Godge wrote: »

If you work in IT, and are any good, keep yourself trained and are prepared to move jobs, you are significantly better off in 2012 than in 2008.

This is not entirely true Godge.

IT contracting rates have dropped significantly, and are certainly not exceeding 2008 rates at the current moment. (Probably getting close to a parity though)

Also any private sector (IT industry) associated to the public sector have taken cuts, and have had their rates frozen. These have not been restored. That's a significant portion of the private sector (IT industry) in Ireland.

So no, it's not true to say that people in the private IT sector are "significantly better off in 2012". You might be, but a lot of us are not. Please try to remember the rest of us if you are going to speak on our behalf!

Gumbo

Zulu wrote: »

So no, it's not true to say that people in the private IT sector are "significantly better off in 2012". You might be, but a lot of us are not. Please try to remember the rest of us if you are going to speak on our behalf!

We could use this one line for every PS bashing assumption thread/post on here too

1979Bob

Godge wrote: »

You miss the point. Farmer Pudsey said that €12 per hour was a minimum wage type job and all his friends that he talks to in the public sector are on that. All you are showing is that entry-level jobs in the public sector are at the same level as the jobs Farmer complains about in the private sector.

Godge wrote: »

I am not a public servant so direct your anger elsewhere. you know nothing of what I do for a living.

If you form your views "from talking to people", you are going to suffer from reinforced bias, it is an inevitable consequence of small island we live on with its small-minded people.

I prefer to look at data and beyond the headline data into underlying information. The public sector as a whole have taken two pay cuts and given significant productivity increases, that is a fact. Unlike the private sector, these cuts in pay have been evenly spread across the public sector.

In the private sector, the construction industry and related industries have been severely damaged which is what was coming to them as the bubble burst. Lots of people have been caught as a result, some of them deservedly so and as someone who had his fair share of cowboy contractors doing shoddy work at exorbitant prices during the Celtic Tiger days, I don't feel much sympathy. They not only killed the golden goose, many of them, they cooked and ate it afterwards.

But there are parts of the private sector doing quite well thank you. The owner of Insomnia was on the radio the other morning, his business is up 5% in the year like-for-like and even more if you include the new shops. Fair play to him, I say, it is more of him we need than the shysters who ripped us off for years. But there is no public servant who is seeing increases like that (10% or more when you include the new shops).

Finally, 12 euro per hour which your minimum wage friends are on, translates into over €25,000 per year. Gosh, they are so hard up they should get jobs as public servants, but wait, a services attendant only starts at €19,559 while a clerical officer starts at €20,859. Even an administrative officer who requires an honours degree starts at €29,922 - see proof in link.

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/circ182010.pdf


It is about time that the lies stopped. You think minimum wage level jobs are €12 per hour so you should start campaigning for public sector pay increases. You have no idea.

I dont think so. See bits in bold. You mispresented figures for your argument and I was just highlighting and correcting them.
You missed the point that a CO is an entry level position close to €12/hour and thanks to increments increases to way above them.

Godge

1979Bob wrote: »

I dont think so. See bits in bold. You mispresented figures for your argument and I was just highlighting and correcting them.
You missed the point that a CO is an entry level position close to €12/hour and thanks to increments increases to way above them.

A services attendant doesn't make it at any stage of his/her career to €13 an hour (based on a 40-hour week).

Idbatterim

why not just get contract workers in for basic admin etc in the PS?

Whiskeyjack

Godge wrote: »

Even an administrative officer who requires an honours degree starts at €29,922 - see proof in link.

That's a big salary for someone even with an honours degree. I have a 2:1 honours bs sc in science and a h.dip in computer science and I'm only on 24k in IT, I'd need a bit more experience to reach the 30k level.

Entry level clerical jobs in the civil service are low, but it's the ones in the middle that are too high, particularly given the dismal service we receive from them.

kippy

Whiskeyjack wrote: »

That's a big salary for someone even with an honours degree. I have a 2:1 honours bs sc in science and a h.dip in computer science and I'm only on 24k in IT, I'd need a bit more experience to reach the 30k level.

Entry level clerical jobs in the civil service are low, but it's the ones in the middle that are too high, particularly given the dismal service we receive from them.

Indeed.
However, one has to look at the whole culture withing public services from the top down to see why there are so many perceived problems.
There are no doubt very good people working all over the sector however there are some that aren't good at what they do, feel no motivation to improve and are often dragging the whole thing down.
Why?
Well it comes from the top, there very simply is no motivation for continual improvement, higher standards, cost saving, better customer services etc. And one might ask why is that?

Well if you look at a recent incident in which the highest court of the land determined that the government acted illegally in relation to referendum information wasting over a million euros (at least) in the process, you will see why.
There were a number of people and groups involved in this all on staggering salaries. Yet not one of them will face any form of sanctions for this mess up. Where is the incentive to improve things in future, where is the incentive not to mess up in future? There are countless examples of this kind of thing happening all over the shop, but how are the government expected to be taken seriously in asking for "efficiencies" when they themselves don't lead the way with this?

The way budgets are handled, the way some public service bodies are run, the lack of and complete ignorance of people management across all sectors do not lead to good work practice in general.

antoobrien

It's interesting to note that there are more people being treated bye the HSE despite the hospitals having lower budgets and lower staff levels.

Kinda reinforces the public perception that there's lots of inefficiencies in certain sectors.

kippy

antoobrien wrote: »

It's interesting to note that there are more people being treated bye the HSE despite the hospitals having lower budgets and lower staff levels.

Kinda reinforces the public perception that there's lots of inefficiencies in certain sectors.

I assume you're being sarcastic there?
(ie that the HSE is efficient)
How much of those efficiencies are gotten at excessive cost?

Take the health service as another example. Budget over run of 400 million. Who gets the demotion/stick for that, why exactly is it such a high overrun?

There are areas where efficiencies are being found ON PAPER but sometimes these are being offset with higher expenses else where.

Head The Wall

antoobrien wrote: »

It's interesting to note that there are more people being treated bye the HSE despite the hospitals having lower budgets and lower staff levels.

Kinda reinforces the public perception that there's lots of inefficiencies in certain sectors.

That's classed as progress as per the CPA Who do they think they are kidding?

ardmacha

That's classed as progress as per the CPA

So treating more people is not progress?

antoobrien

kippy wrote: »

I assume you're being sarcastic there?
(ie that the HSE is efficient)
How much of those efficiencies are gotten at excessive cost?

Take the health service as another example. Budget over run of 400 million. Who gets the demotion/stick for that, why exactly is it such a high overrun?

There are areas where efficiencies are being found ON PAPER but sometimes these are being offset with higher expenses else where.

Not at all sarcastic.

It appears that actual hospital spending is down, despite the overruns.

I agree that there's a lot to be found, so underwhelmed might be an apt description.

Head The Wall

kippy wrote: »

Take the health service as another example. Budget over run of 400 million. Who gets the demotion/stick for that, why exactly is it such a high overrun?

I may be wrong here but haven't there been budget overruns in the HSE for years but it wasn't as much an issue as there was always more money to throw at it. That isn't there now so it is being highlighted more.

ardmacha wrote: »

So treating more people is not progress?

The point is that if they can get more work done with less people and budgets that means they were way overstaffed and overspending previous to that.

When we hear about all the excess staff still in there it will lead people to expect even better services or more cost savings. As they seem to be cutting services and not implementing targeted redundancies it shows their appetite for really tackling the problem, which is not at all.

kippy

Head The Wall wrote: »

I may be wrong here but haven't there been budget overruns in the HSE for years but it wasn't as much an issue as there was always more money to throw at it. That isn't there now so it is being highlighted more.

I agree, my point is, why pay a team of people who oversee the HSE the amount of money they are getting, if they cannot manage it?

Head The Wall

Shouldn't we sack the govt then as well because of their budget overrun.

The PS don't do accountability and everyone in their seems fine about it. Look at Patrick Neary, Rody Molloy, bertie Ahern etc

There's an old saying "If you throw enough sh1t at a wall some of it will stick" sadly the govt are too incompetent for that to happen

kippy

Head The Wall wrote: »

Shouldn't we sack the govt then as well because of their budget overrun.

The PS don't do accountability and everyone in their seems fine about it. Look at Patrick Neary, Rody Molloy, bertie Ahern etc

Do you think I am an idiot?

I know that and that is the issue or one of the issues.

The point is, we as a nation of people accept this, we accept the fact that 1 million of our money was spent illegally.
Nothing happens, because we don't demand anything to happen. Complaining about it on fora such as this are completely pointless.

The goverment were sacked and replaced with one with a "new vision" which turned out to be much more of the same.

frankosw

kippy wrote: »

The goverment were sacked and replaced with one with a "new vision" which turned out to be much more of the same.

Can i ask exactly who "sacked" the government?

As i seem to recall they usshered in the Bank Guarantee Scheme,awarded themselves huge settlements and then called a genereal election.

I also seem to recall that maybe 30 people showed up to protest the country's loss of soverignty forllowing the Bailout but over 3000 turned up at the Where's Wally event in town.

Itchianus

frankosw wrote: »

Can i ask exactly who "sacked" the government?

As i seem to recall they usshered in the Bank Guarantee Scheme,awarded themselves huge settlements and then called a genereal election.

I also seem to recall that maybe 30 people showed up to protest the country's loss of soverignty forllowing the Bailout but over 3000 turned up at the Where's Wally event in town.

How about getting back on topic, Frank do you believe the PS wage bill is a problem, and if so how should it be addressed...?

woodoo

kippy wrote: »

The way budgets are handled, the way some public service bodies are run, the lack of and complete ignorance of people management across all sectors do not lead to good work practice in general.

My experience of the public service is that hard workers are used and abused and quite often loaded with more work, the lazy and useless are manoeuvred into cushy jobs and left there in peace. It would make you despair.

kippy

woodoo wrote: »

My experience of the public service is that hard workers are used and abused and quite often loaded with more work, the lazy and useless are manoeuvred into cushy jobs and left there in peace. It would make you despair.

That wouldn't be a million miles from the experience I have seen in some areas as well being honest.

Itchianus

Itchianus wrote: »

How about getting back on topic, Frank do you believe the PS wage bill is a problem, and if so how should it be addressed...?

Seems strange Frank, that you're still active on nearly every other thread on the economy forum, yet you can't or won't answer a simple straightforward question on this one..?

frankosw

Itchianus wrote: »

Seems strange Frank, that you're still active on nearly every other thread on the economy forum, yet you can't or won't answer a simple straightforward question on this one..?

To answer your question the PS wage bill is a problem in that the majority of staff in the PS arent being paid enough for the job they do.

The revenue to pay the wages plus the day to day running of the country is not being streamed effectively with some people paying no taxes and others paying a pittance of thier true worth.

The true black hole in the state's finaces is not caused by the PS wage bill but by tax-avoidance and the welfare system..one needs to be vigourously enforced and the other needs to be vigourously curtailed.

jh79

frankosw wrote: »

To answer your question the PS wage bill is a problem in that the majority of staff in the PS arent being paid enough for the job they do.

The revenue to pay the wages plus the day to day running of the country is not being streamed effectively with some people paying no taxes and others paying a pittance of thier true worth.

The true black hole in the state's finaces is not caused by the PS wage bill but by tax-avoidance and the welfare system..one needs to be vigourously enforced and the other needs to be vigourously curtailed.

Well why not leave the PS and join a company in the private sector, if you honestly think PS wages are lower than their private sector equivalent? You seem to think that welfare is a lifestyle choice so would have no trouble finding a job.

sarumite

frankosw wrote: »

To answer your question the PS wage bill is a problem in that the majority of staff in the PS arent being paid enough for the job they do.

The revenue to pay the wages plus the day to day running of the country is not being streamed effectively with some people paying no taxes and others paying a pittance of thier true worth.

The true black hole in the state's finaces is not caused by the PS wage bill but by tax-avoidance and the welfare system..one needs to be vigourously enforced and the other needs to be vigourously curtailed.

Tax avoidance is legal. I think you mean tax evasion.

frankosw

jh79 wrote: »

if you honestly think PS wages are lower than their private sector equivalent? .

What does that mean exactly?

Where are the Private Sector eqivalents forTeachers,Gardai,Firefighters,Prison Officers?

jh79

frankosw wrote: »

What does that mean exactly?

Where are the Private Sector eqivalents forTeachers,Gardai,Firefighters,Prison Officers?

Well if OSW means what i think then admin
Teachers have degrees so compared to equally qualified people
I would have no problem with the ps sepa
rating into separate groups to negotiate wages bet you wouldn't?