Am I the only one who thinks removing the kids from school to go on hols in wrong?

tacofries

pwurple wrote: »

You can't claim to be well educated if you can't even string a simple sentence together.

Would you say Carol Greider is well educated considering she is one of the top scientists in her field of molecular biology? Well she can't string a simple sentence together.

My english teacher in secondary school was a genius at english. Could create masterpieces of writing from nothing. All his sentence's were 100% gramatically perfect. Going by your logic does that mean he is well educated? Now say I gave him an RSA encryption to solve, and guess what, he couldn't do it. Does that mean that he is no longer well educated, simply because he isnt brilliant at a totally separate field of study?

Well educated people are never goin to be perfect at everything, but instead they will be better at some things then others.

And who are you with your "well educated". Its mandatory in ireland to do at least 11 years of school, with the vast majority doing 14 years and some doing over 18. Do you consider a well educated person to be holding a masters degree in each denomination of study known to man? if so, i never claimed i do. i simply said that i got 515 in my leavin cert to prove my point. i wasnt bragging, you just took it personal.

what is your definition of a well educated person considering there's more types of education the just english studies?

Sorcha16

Sleepy wrote: »

PS: Would love to see the number of you who thanked pwurples post that are teachers btw! If you're that quick to see an offence to your profession where none exists, I'd look at changing careers tbh, you've clearly no confidence in your abilities at it.

Perhaps you should change careers seeing as your abilities as a (non-qualified) teacher are so exceptional.

(Based solely on your subjective perception of your child's development, which of course isn't biased at all)

pickarooney

Nanazolie wrote: »

:eek: That's a big change from when I was in school in France. We would start at 8h30 am, finish at 4.30pm and I remember painfully learning how to write (I couldn't hold my pen correctly - still can't - and I remember the teacher staying with me during breaks until I had the correct hold). We also did puppet theatre and collage and art and craft (oh, those beautiful and so useful string holders, all hand-stiched! ), but the core of the day was definitively writing / spelling / reading / maths. At 5, a child would be in 'Grande section de maternelle' and preparing for 'Cours Preparatoire 1ere année' (CP), where kids are supposed to know the fundations of writing. But I heard that the French president is looking at abolishing homeworks, so I guess a lot has changed in the curriculum and the way of teaching

Multiplication tables would be a fair step up from learning to write letters though. The days are insanely long here compared to Ireland, considering what they actually learn.

dzer2

The OP asked for opinions not to be berated or be told whos wrong or right why do all threads end up bickering and bitching. By the way I am thick

Sleepy

Sorcha16 wrote: »

Perhaps you should change careers seeing as your abilities as a (non-qualified) teacher are so exceptional.

(Based solely on your subjective perception of your child's development, which of course isn't biased at all)

So, teach me then...

How many hours of one-on-one tutoring from a non-qualified teacher would it take to teach a child the academic portion of a week of being in junior or senior infants with twenty odd other kids?

byhookorbycrook

dahamsta wrote: »

The OP's child/example is 5 for feck's sake. There's no revision or tests.

Er, you would be wrong there. Revision and assessment of learning and for learning are a huge part of every school year.A 5 yr old lays the building blocks for further learning in the infant rooms.If a child doesn't learn the 42 sounds in infants they will not be able to blend onset and rime correctly, never mind Dolch words-and that's only basic literacy.

byhookorbycrook

Sleepy wrote: »

How much effort do people think is involved in covering a weeks' classroom learning in a one-on-one environment?

A 5 year old spends what, 9am to 1pm in school? Including an hour or so of breaks and playtime a day, most likely an hour or two of worthless religious indoctrination a week, an hour of PE, Art & Crafts, Story Time etc. Would be interested to hear a teacher's viewpoint on it but I'm guessing there's maybe, what, 8-10 hours of actual education going on in a junior/senior infants class per week?

ROTFLMAO, as the teenagers etc say. Sure, in the case, just send the kids in for 8 hours a week, seeing as you place no value on social skills, learning through play, early literacy skills,motor skills etc. I'm sorry, but this is the daftest posts I have ever seen on boards and that's saying something.

pwurple

Sleepy wrote: »

So, teach me then...

How many hours of one-on-one tutoring from a non-qualified teacher would it take to teach a child the academic portion of a week of being in junior or senior infants with twenty odd other kids?

Sleepy, why not leave that stuff to the teachers who have trained for years, and have oceans more experience? We spend the non-school time teaching them how to recognise trees from their leaves, how to cook, recognise spice and herb smells with their eyes closed, grow peas and carrots, dance the macerena (vital!), sign a bit to their deaf neighbour, get the knack of a rubik's cube, and some awesome football trick shots from the other kids and parents around. I have no clue why you would want to swap it around, by doing the school stuff in their time with you, and then taking off the school time. it seems like making things hard for yourself for no particular reason.

ash23

I've done it occasionally. A few days here and there. Once for a sun holiday. Couple of times for a wedding. Another couple of times when a baby was born or someone was coming from abroad to visit.
I don't live nearby to family and I want to keep my child integrated in the family as opposed to being those distant relatives who come to visit at Christmas.
We obviously do it at the weekends also but sometimes it has to be during the week and I've no qualms about her missing a few days. She is rarely sick so really the only time she misses a day is for something like that. I might feel differently if she was off for a couple of weeks sick every year too.

She's in 4th class now, top of her class in most subjects and no adverse affects to missing the odd few days/a week for social reasons. I think it's about balance and like everything else in life, you can't place too much importance on one aspect of it. Education is important. But so is family.

Everyone has their own way of doing it and they know their child best. If you think your child will struggle after missing a few days, don't take them out of school. If you think they'll be ok, then do what you feel is best.
Each to their own. There is no handbook for parenting. We're all just winging it really.

Happyman42

I read a book once and the inscription really stuck me and gave me courage in my style of parenting, I say 'courage' because it is needed in the face of some of the verbose and self important rulings from teachers.
'Thank you to my parents, who always knew that a good book is more important than homework'.

If I see any of the kids enjoying a book for instance I will treat them and say, why not take the day off and get stuck into it. I have a family of avid and addicted readers as a result. If you think the child will learn more and more importantly, learn in a different way, then go for it. Don't let anybody else tell you that you are neglecting or holding the child back. School is just one part of the developmental process.

Sleepy

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

ROTFLMAO, as the teenagers etc say. Sure, in the case, just send the kids in for 8 hours a week, seeing as you place no value on social skills, learning through play, early literacy skills,motor skills etc. I'm sorry, but this is the daftest posts I have ever seen on boards and that's saying something.

So a child won't learn social skills making friends in the playground/pool of a holiday resort? They won't continue to learn through play or develop motor skills because they're not in a classroom environment?

I've yet to see an answer as to what a child will actually miss out on by missing one week of school at that level.

Personally, I find the dismissive attitude demonstrated by your post a little worrying. Does being in a position of authority for so much of their workday make a teacher forget that dismissing an argument out of hand does nothing to challenge it? I hope you take more time to formulate answers to students questions than demonstrated here: "because I said so", "because that's the way it is" or "that's daft" hardly contribute towards educating one's audience.

pwurple wrote: »

Sleepy, why not leave that stuff to the teachers who have trained for years, and have oceans more experience? We spend the non-school time teaching them how to recognise trees from their leaves, how to cook, recognise spice and herb smells with their eyes closed, grow peas and carrots, dance the macerena (vital!), sign a bit to their deaf neighbour, get the knack of a rubik's cube, and some awesome football trick shots from the other kids and parents around. I have no clue why you would want to swap it around, by doing the school stuff in their time with you, and then taking off the school time. it seems like making things hard for yourself for no particular reason.

For a start, who's to say the teacher necessarily has oceans more experience? A new teacher will likely have less experience with teaching children things than a parent tbh.

I try to cover some reading and maths with my kids because, frankly, I don't trust the education system to do it properly. Every study we see on the subject is showing that our children are not getting the same quality of education we did (grade inflation, lower numbers able for honours maths, university lecturers bemoaning the semi-literate students starting college etc.).

Our education system is largely controlled by a religion that preaches charity whilst hoarding unimaginable wealth, that has a horrific track record on child protection and that think's it's acceptable to teach illogical fallacy in the same breath as the fundamentals of mathematics. It spends an inordinate amount of time failing to teach students a language that to all intents and purposes is dead and teaches a very biased version of our country's history.

Not being rich enough, powerful enough or electable enough I can't change any of these things. I can, however, both add to and correct what my children learn in this system. So, while the kids are young enough to think of answering basic maths questions as fun or to be encouraged to read street signs / advertising billboards etc. I'm going to do that alongside the more "interesting" / practical stuff like nature, cooking, "helping" to re-wire a plug, masking tape off a room that's being painted, test the water parameters of our fish tanks etc.

I don't think it's in any way disputed that parental influence and attitudes towards learning are the biggest contributing factor to a child's academic success. I seem to remember seeing one of the teachers unions referring to a study demonstrating that the number of hours spent in a classroom has little influence on educational outcomes (though they were presenting this study to defend their long summer holidays so a pinch of salt might be needed). I would take from this that a week or two out of school isn't going to damage a child's education significantly if that child is from the section of society where their parents take an interest in, and supplement, their education.

Mossess

Water always finds its own level. In my own opinion I think that the person who thinks it’s okay to take their child out of school, willy-nilly, is probably not going to make any difference to their child if they actually do or don’t. I would consider it disadvantaging the child, but I would guess that that child is being disadvantaged in many other ways too.

Obviously I am not referring to anyone who uses boards as everyone here gives their child all the spare time they have to work on homework, extra-curricular activities, makes sure they get enough sleep and that they eat all the correct foods to give them energy through the day.

cynder

I've taken the kids out of school for holidays and sickdays.

Last year we went to Italy in may for a week, my kids got to see Venice, told them about its history, they learned a few Italian words experienced real Italian cuisine, had a taste of true Italian culture. You couldn't learn that in a primary class room. They used maths when they spent money and learned numbers in Italian.

The year before we took them out of school for the last 2 weeks of june and a week in july to explore the south of France. We took them to Carcassonne, which has some fantastic historical sites, they learned about the invasions, they saw the fortifications. We took them up the Pyrenees on the little canary train. We took them to nimmes and they got to see the roman amphitheatre, they learned about the gladiators, they got to go to Monaco, eze, nice, st Tropez, Cannes, the isle de st Margarite and see the cell where the man in the iron mask was kept. They got to learn some French, count in French, experience typical French cuisine and French culture. Again better than a primary school classroom setting would give them.


No my kids didn't miss out. They got experiences a school book would give you.

However our hols are going to be in June from now on as are eldest is in secondary school and I don't want to take her out.

Penny Dreadful

cynder wrote: »

I've taken the kids out of school for holidays and sickdays.

Last year we went to Italy in may for a week, my kids got to see Venice, told them about its history, they learned a few Italian words experienced real Italian cuisine, had a taste of true Italian culture. You couldn't learn that in a primary class room. They used maths when they spent money and learned numbers in Italian.

The year before we took them out of school for the last 2 weeks of june and a week in july to explore the south of France. We took them to Carcassonne, which has some fantastic historical sites, they learned about the invasions, they saw the fortifications. We took them up the Pyrenees on the little canary train. We took them to nimmes and they got to see the roman amphitheatre, they learned about the gladiators, they got to go to Monaco, eze, nice, st Tropez, Cannes, the isle de st Margarite and see the cell where the man in the iron mask was kept. They got to learn some French, count in French, experience typical French cuisine and French culture. Again better than a primary school classroom setting would give them.


No my kids didn't miss out. They got experiences a school book would give you.

However our hols are going to be in June from now on as are eldest is in secondary school and I don't want to take her out.

Wouldn't those exact same experiences have been available to your child during the summer holidays? Then they would have had the benefit of the primary school setting for the full duration of the school year and the added benefits of the lessons learned while on holidays with you.

cynder

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Wouldn't those exact same experiences have been available to your child during the summer holidays? Then they would have had the benefit of the primary school setting for the full duration of the school year and the added benefits of the lessons learned while on holidays with you.

No, too expensive to go in July and august, it was 2k - 3k more to go during summer holidays, not a hope are we spending over 2k on a holiday for the 5 of us.

5k for a holiday?? Ott...

It also can be too hot to go and explore, one cannot get the full benefit when it's too hot. You tried walking around for 3 hours in 44 degrees? It's not fun and it's worse for the kids.

ash23

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Wouldn't those exact same experiences have been available to your child during the summer holidays? Then they would have had the benefit of the primary school setting for the full duration of the school year and the added benefits of the lessons learned while on holidays with you.

The whole point of taking them out in school term is to keep the cost down. For a lot of families it's the choice between going in school term or not going. So the point being made is either they experience it and miss school, or go to school and miss the experience.

dzer2

Lord help us Had the pleasure of quite a lot of highly educated college leavers a few years back when working with a large multi national company. Tobe honest I would say 90% of them could have benefited from their parents taking them out of school and having holidays abroard. They were clueless lost in the big bad world the amount that had to be got out of jail after nights on the piss and wrecking hired cars. I can be happy that when my darlings leave the comfort of home that they will know how to behave and get on where ever they end up. I could not afford to do this if I wait around until the price is prohibitive. I never had the chance when I was young I wont deprive the children now.

pwurple

Sleepy wrote: »

For a start, who's to say the teacher necessarily has oceans more experience? A new teacher will likely have less experience with teaching children things than a parent tbh.

Even a new teacher has had a lot of on the job training and will have taught hundreds of children. You have had experience with maybe 2? Not comparable in any way.

Sleepy wrote: »

Our education system is largely controlled by a religion that preaches charity whilst hoarding unimaginable wealth, that has a horrific track record on child protection

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about catholicism, as you've mentioned it in three posts. There are ET schools, COI schools and various other denomination schools available all over the country, and if those didn't suit either, there is no barrier to you either moving to an area with the schools you like, or joining with a group of like-minded people setting up their own school.

I'm sure you are well aware also, that over 90% of child abuse is perpetrated by either the childs parents or another member of their family. You can hardly condone removing all children from their homes and placing them in state care because the family home is by far the largest culprit for abuse.

What any of that has to do with serial absenteeism I have no clue.

I was one of those kids who got a prize for never missing a day for a couple of years. This ethos has carried over to my work ethic, where I haven't taken a sick day in about 5 years. I think it does carry forward in life to how a child behaves as an adult. I've met people who try their best to 'max out' their sick days every year to just below the HR investigation limit, when they are not sick. It costs employers a fortune, and IMHO is a generally pathetic thing to do.

Travel is important education also, and we do travel, but we cut our cloth to suit our measure. We go where we can afford, and are well able to camp.

Nanazolie

I can see the point that people raise about travel being a valuable experience and an opportunity for education. But would it not make more sense to go abroad every second year and holiday at home the rest of the time, where kids can also learn valuable lessons in history, geography, language, ethics, art, ecology, etc?

I have to travel to France every year so that our kids can see their grandparents and extended family, but we keep the costs to the minimum, staying with family and friends, not eating out, etc. As for other foreign languages, I speak Spanish to them and my husband speaks Italian. They also watch videos in other languages, and we have role plays in various languages. I can bring them to the National Gallery to teach them about art, or we go to the zoo for a bit of geography and natural sciences.

paperclip2

I've taken mine out of school on a couple of occasions and while I agree its not ideal I don't think its the worst thing in the world either and can be beneficial to the kids.

My eldest is 17 now, doing the LC in June. Shes visited a a number of countries, the UK and France a few times, Finland, Holland, Spain, Italy, North Africa. Some would have been made in term time, most wouldn't.
Partly as a result of her exposure to other languages and cultures she's decided she wants to specialise in languages in college. Her first choice is Edinburgh University to study French with either Spanish or Scandinavian Studies.
Shes a school prefect, a member of the French debate team, taking 8 Honours LC subjects and averaging A's in 5 and B's in 3.

I don't believe missing a few weeks of school throughout her primary or secondary career has been a major handicap. Travel, especially where there's a bit of local exploration, cultural visiting and language skill development is, I believe, hugely beneficial. It can open up a kids eyes to the wonder of the world, it can ignite their curiosity and give them a sense of perspective on life.
Its been a very significant part of informing my daughters world view in a way that education in the formal sense just can't. It has contextualised her formal education in many respects and been of huge help in relation to informing her course work especially in areas like history, religion (as a Leaving Cert Subject), French and English.

I completely take the point that too much time missed is not ideal and I do agree with that. I also firmly believe that if I choose to take my child out of class then I, as the parent, am the one responsible for ensuring my child catches up with missed work, not the teacher.

At the end of the day I think it comes down to the individual child. My kids are fortunate in that they love school and thankfully are pretty bright with no learning issues. I do think that if they were struggling I'd be less blase about taking them out. Some kids can deal with missing a few days some can't.

Penny Dreadful

cynder wrote: »

No, too expensive to go in July and august, it was 2k - 3k more to go during summer holidays, not a hope are we spending over 2k on a holiday for the 5 of us.

5k for a holiday?? Ott...

It also can be too hot to go and explore, one cannot get the full benefit when it's too hot. You tried walking around for 3 hours in 44 degrees? It's not fun and it's worse for the kids.

So its more of an expense issue then than anything else. You could always go during the October mid term break/Christmas break/pre Easter mid term/Easter break and it wouldn't be too hot to explore then.

I understand that it costs a lot to give a child those experiences. I also understand that it is (iMHO and that of some other people too) less than desirable to take children out of school during term time.
When I and many others of a similar age (35) were kids our parents simply couldnt afford any kind of holiday never mind a trip abroad. I do not think I missed out and had a poorer life experience because of this. I read voraciously and had a strong keen interest in learning all about things in other countries. When I was old enough to get myself to those places at my own expense I was delighted. The experience wasn't lessened in any way because I was 20 something when I was doing it rather than being 9 years old.

Deise Vu

It is clearly wrong if you are a teacher:D.

ash23

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

So its more of an expense issue then than anything else. You could always go during the October mid term break/Christmas break/pre Easter mid term/Easter break and it wouldn't be too hot to explore then.

The prices are hiked around mid terms aswell, it's not just summer. Any school holiday = raised prices.

cynder

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

So its more of an expense issue then than anything else. You could always go during the October mid term break/Christmas break/pre Easter mid term/Easter break and it wouldn't be too hot to explore then.

I understand that it costs a lot to give a child those experiences. I also understand that it is (iMHO and that of some other people too) less than desirable to take children out of school during term time.
When I and many others of a similar age (35) were kids our parents simply couldnt afford any kind of holiday never mind a trip abroad. I do not think I missed out and had a poorer life experience because of this. I read voraciously and had a strong keen interest in learning all about things in other countries. When I was old enough to get myself to those places at my own expense I was delighted. The experience wasn't lessened in any way because I was 20 something when I was doing it rather than being 9 years old.

When my husband had cancer at 27 and our eldest nearly died 3 times at 7,8 and 9 we decided life was too short. That yes we would make memories and have good times and that life is not all about school and work. Missing a week here or there a year isn't going to have a major impact on education, they aren't going to fail the leaving cert because they missed a few weeks of school.

Did you not know prices go up during mid term breaks and some flights also stop for winter months.


I'm 32 so is my hubby, my parents took me to the UK during school term via the ferry and stayed with family over there, it never did my education any harm.

My first real holiday was when I was 22.

Sleepy

I think it's a case for some of us that it may be affordable to take the kids away for a week every year (or even every couple of years) if we do it in term time but not to do so during the holidays and that we see those holidays of being as of greater value to the child's development than the equivalent time they would have spent in school.

There's obviously a tipping point at which the amount of time spent on holidays during term time is of less value than the same time had the child been kept in school.

Do the teachers amongst us have knowledge of the metric used to determine how much flexibility is in the curriculum? Obviously due to normal absence from sickness of the pupil (or teacher), snow days, allowances for disruption in the classroom etc. there has to be a degree of redundancy built into the curriculum so there should be a guideline one could use as to when a child gets to the point where all other things being equal they'd struggle to catch up. This metric, would then, obviously have to be adjusted to allow for external factors such as any effort parents make with their children to facilitate catch up (or do routinely), the nature of the teacher involved (will they provide worksheets or an outline of what was missed), the child's own motivation (could an argument be made that a child from a deprived area might come back from a trip abroad more motivated to use education to get out of the deprived area they come from?) etc.

In other words: there's no definitive right or wrong here. For some students, a week out of school to go on holidays may harm their education, for others (the majority imo), it won't.

Penny Dreadful

ash23 wrote: »

The prices are hiked around mid terms aswell, it's not just summer. Any school holiday = raised prices.

:)I know that, my point with picking those particular times was that the weather will not be too hot for exploring then as was one of the reasons given by another FM.

Over all I understand that people are trying to do their best by their kids. They send them to school, make sure they do their homework, play sports and see and experience some of the world. There is nothing wrong with any of that.
Some kids can miss some time at school and they catch up when they return with no ill effects. Others though do experience ill effects and may miss out on the basics of certain subjects (understanding fractions for example in maths) and this hinders them for some time afterwards. The trip to Athens where the learned all about democracy in Ancient Greece doesn't help this child when they are struggling to comprehend a very basic yet very important concept when they return.
For this reason I think if it costs too much to take your children on foreign holidays during the holidays allowed by the school calendar then you don't do it or you do it less often.
I also think it is quite disruptive for the children who are left behind to have people in and out of the classroom and it is somewhat disrespectful to the teacher to assume that their lesson plans for those particular weeks are of such little value to your child that it doesn't matter if they miss them on a regular basis.

cynder

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

I also think it is quite disruptive for the children who are left behind to have people in and out of the classroom and it is somewhat disrespectful to the teacher to assume that their lesson plans for those particular weeks are of such little value to your child that it doesn't matter if they miss them on a regular basis.

For the last bit, thats a heap of rubbish. I know teachers who go on holidays during school term. They are used to pupils bring out, either due to sickness, death, holidays, weddings or because a parent is too sick to drive.



I'm sitting in the GPS this very moment waiting for my daughter to be called, got a phone call from the school this morning to come and collect her as she was sick.

Penny Dreadful

cynder wrote: »

For the last bit, thats a heap of rubbish. I know teachers who go on holidays during school term. They are used to pupils bring out, either due to sickness, death, holidays, weddings or because a parent is too sick to drive.



I'm sitting in the GPS this very moment waiting for my daughter to be called, got a phone call from the school this morning to come and collect her as she was sick.

And they shouldn't be doing that either.

Don't get me wrong, just as I am not saying that every child who misses the last week of school in June is going to suffer for the rest of their lives neither am I saying that every single teacher is present and correct every day of the school year just dying to teach it out of the park every minute of every day.
This is a broad strokes converstation/ thread topic.

Hope your little girl gets better soonn:)

cynder

She's on antibiotics and off till Monday. Oh the next few days ate going to be fun....... Not!

Penny Dreadful

cynder wrote: »

She's on antibiotics and off till Monday. Oh the next few days ate going to be fun....... Not!

Poor little pet. Hope she gets better soon