Do we need a mid sized (7-8,000 capacity) venue?

scudzilla

Going off a conversation in another thread, and a question that seems to pop up a lot, does Dublin need a mid sized (6-8,000 capacity) venue?

If you'd have asked me 2 years ago then i'd have said yes, without a doubt, but now i'm not so sure.

We have the like of The Olympia and Vicar Street, which are around the 1,100 capacity mark, then a huge jump to the 13,000 O2 Arena.

I think the way we are now, when they close off the Upper Tier of The O2 (And now with a snazzy brick looking curtain) is perfect. Plenty of room downstairs, great facilities, not a bad seat and full car parking, where could you build a new venue with a full car park etc?

With a closed off O2 you can also use the full stage, hence the band can bring there FULL production (e.g. Kiss a few years back, upstairs closed, yet the band were able to fit a full stage show in)

My pro's and cons for a new venue

Pro's

We get a shiny new venue
More intimate than a half opened O2

Cons

Someone will have to pay for a new venue, and ultimately that will mean a rise of ticket prices.

Bands possibly not being able to bring a full stage production

More tickets will end up in the hands of touts, as shows will sell out more due to size.

burstbuckle

Theres different rooms in the RDS Simmonscourt,one of then can hold about 7000 i think.

Furious-Red

Ah crap i meant to say yes

scudzilla

Mr.S wrote: »

We need a solid 3-5k venue.

RDS comes close but it is an awful awful venue for gigs.

Been at a few gigs in The O2 with closed of sections and found the atmosphere was a bit dead because the stage is so big, but the crowd isn't.

RDS probably has the worst sound on a consistent basis i've ever known.

As for crowds at The O2 being too small then a lot of the blame for that surely has to be the promotors, if a gig has dire sales then move it, to Vicar street or The Olympia, when i say dire i mean less than 1k.

The worst i've seen at The O2 was 30 seconds to Mars (I won tickets), probably around 3,000 there if that, was awful.

Furious-Red

scudzilla wrote: »

RDS probably has the worst sound on a consistent basis i've ever known.

As for crowds at The O2 being too small then a lot of the blame for that surely has to be the promotors, if a gig has dire sales then move it, to Vicar street or The Olympia, when i say dire i mean less than 1k.

The worst i've seen at The O2 was 30 seconds to Mars (I won tickets), probably around 3,000 there if that, was awful.

Yea i was at 30stm and was'nt totally shocked with the turn out since i knew they were not as big over here as the UK so the O2 was always gonna be too big , but when i walked in i literally just walked up to about half way in the crowd with no bother.
I think if we had a venue like Brixton Academy it would be perfect

Toast

I'd bet there's a very good reason why there isn't a venue like this already in Dublin and I'd bet it is something to do with planning permission, particularly things like fire codes, transport and "not in my backyard" style complaints.

Trying to find a place that meets all the requirements and pays for itself can't be easy. Regardless of if it is needed or wanted it just might not be possible.

scudzilla

Whats the story behind the Grand Canal Theatre? Why can't that be used for Standing gigs, that would be around 4,500 as it's 2,000 seated. Surely can't be that hard to remove seats

scudzilla

Mr.S wrote: »

Take the 30STM gig in the o2 as an example (was at it myself, shocked at the turnout, great gig though) :

I'm sure the promoter (MCD in this case) thought it would sell well, I doubt they where expecting a sell out gig but over say ~1,500 sales.

No idea what the actual turn out was, but i'd guess around 3-4000. Once you expect over 1,500 sales you have either the o2 (~12000) or RDS Simmons Court (5k?) and the RDS Main hall (~7k?). I'm not even sure if the RDS is used for inside gigs anymore, haven't heard of one there in ages.

So basically the o2 is our only indoor sized venue when you want over 1,500 sales. So promoters have no choice really then to use the o2 and hope the atmosphere isn't killed.

Which is why we need a proper medium sized venue.

I doubt it'l ever happen though.

But they (MCD in this case) would have known in the first few weeks of sale that it was poor on sales, that was when it should have been moved, as soon as they go past the magic 1k mark that option is gone.

There's an area behind the O2, on the quays, i think it's used as a car park. IF a venue was to be built, they could just put it there, the infrastructure is already in place, and it could be a proper complex like the one in Londinium

Irish Aris

No

scudzilla wrote: »

Whats the story behind the Grand Canal Theatre? Why can't that be used for Standing gigs, that would be around 4,500 as it's 2,000 seated. Surely can't be that hard to remove seats

I am not sure that the people of the Grand Canal Theatre would be interested in something like this. Their profile is not one of your standard gig.

Mickolution

No

Irish Aris wrote: »

I am not sure that the people of the Grand Canal Theatre would be interested in something like this. Their profile is not one of your standard gig.

Yeah. It's not really a goer for gigs at all. Do the seats even come out? Even if they do, with the type of runs they've got there (musicals and plays doing runs of a few weeks) it wouldn't be suitable at all, really. It's a theatre, not a gig venue.

ED E

scudzilla wrote: »

But they (MCD in this case) would have known in the first few weeks of sale that it was poor on sales, that was when it should have been moved, as soon as they go past the magic 1k mark that option is gone.

There's an area behind the O2, on the quays, i think it's used as a car park. IF a venue was to be built, they could just put it there, the infrastructure is already in place, and it could be a proper complex like the one in Londinium

Moving a big even like that is easier said than done, its not like a hotel where there are spare rooms available, if sales are poor they may not have somewhere to move it to.

karaokeman

No

Mickolution wrote: »

Yeah. It's not really a goer for gigs at all. Do the seats even come out? Even if they do, with the type of runs they've got there (musicals and plays doing runs of a few weeks) it wouldn't be suitable at all, really. It's a theatre, not a gig venue.

Brian Wilson played at the Grand Canal Theatre, not too sure if there was standing at that gig?

The last thread showed more votes in favour of a medium-sized venue, I reckon we'd need a petition now to see how many signatures we can get outside of boards.

the_doctor199

No

karaokeman wrote: »

I reckon we'd need a petition now to see how many signatures we can get outside of boards.

Petitions are fine, but someone has to pay for this. If I was stumping up that kind of money it'd take more than a petition to get me to build. MCD aren't stupid, they're well aware Belfast & Dublin could both do with a 5,000 venue.

Knifey Spoony

Nothing to do with Dublin, but plans are afoot for that size venue in Cork at the moment. Well there are two plans really, one to be down the docks and another on the old Beamish and Crawford site. I think the one on the Beamish site is more advantaged though.

Would be nice to have that size of venue down this size of the country, instead of having to constantly travel to Dublin to see the acts I want to see.

nxbyveromdwjpg

No

Knifey Spoony wrote: »

Would be nice to have that size of venue down this size of the country, instead of having to constantly travel to Dublin to see the acts I want to see.

Yes it would be handy for a minority, but a pain in the hole for the majority, who'd have to travel there from the rest of the country

nxbyveromdwjpg

No

The old Point was 8,000, that's still too big a jump from 1,200 which is the region the other venues are in below the o2.

Also afair the seats in the Grand Canal Theatre are fixed and can't be taken up to allow for a standing gig.

Furious-Red

nm wrote: »

The old Point was 8,000, that's still too big a jump from 1,200 which is the region the other venues are in below the o2.

Also afair the seats in the Grand Canal Theatre are fixed and can't be taken up to allow for a standing gig.

Plus the Grand Canal seems to be pretty busy all year around with plays/musical so cant see them doing many gigs . I know they do a few eg Ray Davies etc

The Nal

No

Yes we do. In Dublin anyway. Don't like the O2 at all and a lot of bands play there and dont get close to selling it out.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Mr.S wrote: »

No idea what the actual turn out was, but i'd guess around 3-4000. Once you expect over 1,500 sales you have either the o2 (~12000) or RDS Simmons Court (5k?) and the RDS Main hall (~7k?). I'm not even sure if the RDS is used for inside gigs anymore, haven't heard of one there in ages.

Deadmau5 was there in the Summer. Venue wasn't great alright but it'll do. The ventilation was awful, like a sauna in there. Sound seemed OK though.

JJ

No

I remember a year or two ago hearing that MCD were trying to get a medium sized venue set up in Citywest. I would imagine it's still in planning permission and red tape hell. I don't think you need to petition MCD or anyone to get a medium sized venue. They probably want one just as much as the fans do. I'm sure they realise some bands are too big for the Academy or the Olympia and are too small for The O2.

Just Like Heaven

No

Yeah I also remember reading on hear about MCD trying to build another smaller 02 in Dublin.

In the London 02 they have the Indig02 venue in the same facility (same building bascially) and it suits perfectly.

No need for 7-8 thousand really, the 02 facilitates fine for that. But a venue same size as the TF theatre in Castlebar, plenty of standing and 4,000 max capaity is the job. Except in Dublin so bands actually come to play it.

ghostdancer

wasn't that Citywest thing just an internet rumour? I don't remember seeing anywhere official mentioning it. not a great place to locate a venue either.

I remember there was talk of a smaller 4/5k venue being built beside the o2, but I think that was scrapped. presuambly it was going to be the same type of thing as mentioned above.

7/8k is too much really, if an act can shift over 5k tickets, they're probably big enough to draw a decent-sized crowd to the o2.
3-4k would probably be ideal, as there's plenty of acts who end up doing 2/3 nights in the Olympia but wouldn't be able to even half fill the o2.

gerryg80

The Bord Gais Theatre could be an alternative if the did music gigs there. 2111 seated.

Mickolution

No

ghostdancer wrote: »

wasn't that Citywest thing just an internet rumour? I don't remember seeing anywhere official mentioning it. not a great place to locate a venue either.

It may have just been a rumour, but wasn't it just that they were taking over the running of the convention centre, rather than building a new place?

As for the place down by the o2, I think that was an idea around the same time as the o2 was built itself, ie when there was a lot more money around and there were plans to build up that whole area, which hasn't really happened. Personally, if there were to be a venue like is being discussed was to open in Dublin, I think it would do a lot better in the city centre. I'd have no problem going down that far for something I really wanted to see, but wouldn't be bothered if it was something I was on the fence about, I don't think. It's a right pain to get down there from most of the city unless you're really close to the Luas line and it's miserable to get to in Winter.

gerryg80 wrote: »

The Bord Gais Theatre could be an alternative if the did music gigs there. 2111 seated.

Yeah, I wonder why nobody has mentioned there in the thread at all...

karaokeman wrote: »

The last thread showed more votes in favour of a medium-sized venue, I reckon we'd need a petition now to see how many signatures we can get outside of boards.

Yes, an internet petition, something everyone takes seriously.

honru

Grand Canal Theatre is carving a different, more delicate slice of the entertainment business compared to those sweaty rock and pop gigs. Most major cities have this kind of theatre (hence the sole all-seated configuration) and I'd prefer it to stay that way.

I don't think a 7,000 to 8,000 capacity venue is necessary: we have the O2 and the tiers can be cordoned off for acts that can fill that range. What would be preferable is a 3,500 to 5,000 capacity venue, similar to Brixton Academy in London or the Apollo in Manchester.

poundhound

I remember the last Pearl Jam played the O2, Eddie Vedder made a comment along the lines "Its a small place you got here, but you sure make a lot of noise".

and heres us delighted with our new larger venue, and international acts such as Pearl Jam (probably after just been through the UK playing the MEN arena and Londons O2), deem our marquee venue modest.

I agree we do need a 3.5 - 5k capacity venue. I seen Janet Jackson in the Grand Canal theatre and while I enjoyed it, the GCT is very much a theatre rather than a venue for rock acts.

The RDS should be tore down and rebuilt with a smaller capacity and better facilities.

Deplasterer

The O2 do an optimum standing (7,100 capacity) approx 1,300 standing only, the rest seated no cordoned areas.

Wrongway1985

No

poundhound wrote: »

I remember the last Pearl Jam played the O2, Eddie Vedder made a comment along the lines "Its a small place you got here, but you sure make a lot of noise".

and heres us delighted with our new larger venue, and international acts such as Pearl Jam (probably after just been through the UK playing the MEN arena and Londons O2), deem our marquee venue modest.

I agree we do need a 3.5 - 5k capacity venue. I seen Janet Jackson in the Grand Canal theatre and while I enjoyed it, the GCT is very much a theatre rather than a venue for rock acts.

The RDS should be tore down and rebuilt with a smaller capacity and better facilities.

Wasn't there but would assume Eddie Vedder if those were his exact words was referring to our small country as opposed to the venue. If you don't include Russian venues the MEN at 21,000 is the 3rd biggest indoor arena in Europe so at 6,000 or so less I don't think anyone would deem Dublins 02 modest also a quick scazz at Pearl Jams tour dates and they are currently playing at 3000 capacity venues. I also agree we need need a mid size capacity venue but its only realistic in Dublin or Cork due to transport offering regular service from those counties to most others. Redevelopment of an existing building like you've suggested could be the way.

JJ

No

ghostdancer wrote: »

wasn't that Citywest thing just an internet rumour? I don't remember seeing anywhere official mentioning it. not a great place to locate a venue either.

I remember seeing it mentioned in the Indo, possibly with quotes from people with MCD but then again, it is the Indo. I don't think Citywest would be a bad place to have a medium sized venue. It is a bit of a trek but the Luas goes out there. As long as the Luas people are organised on concert nights, and I know they can be based on gigs I've been to at The O2, it should be handy for people to get to and from the venue.

languagenerd

No

Definitely!

Well, maybe around 6,000 would be enough (as the O2 can be rearranged for 8,000). It doesn't make any sense that our venues jump from 1,500 to 14,000, with very little in between!

There've been less shows at the RDS since the Point reopened, but even then, there's still a huge gap between 4,000 and 14,000. Plus Main Hall is not a nice venue - there's no real atmosphere, it's freezing and half the hall is empty (cause they don't sell the amount it could really hold - probably fire safety or something). Plus I associate it with college exams! :pac: Haven't been to any gigs in Simmonscourt though, maybe that's better?

I think bands would be less likely to skip Ireland if we had a mid-sized venue. As well as that, there are plenty of bands who sell out the Olympia and would probably do better in a bigger hall (also, I hate the Olympia as a gig venue - I'm sounding more and more grumpy by the minute, amn't I? :P). They should have incorporated one when they were doing up the O2 and the docklands... no money there to do that anymore

poundhound

@ Wrongway....

Regarding "Wasn't there but would assume Eddie Vedder if those were his exact words was referring to our small country as opposed to the venue. If you don't include Russian venues the MEN at 21,000 is the 3rd biggest indoor arena in Europe so at 6,000 or so less I don't think anyone would deem Dublins 02 modest also a quick scazz at Pearl Jams tour dates and they are currently playing at 3000 capacity venues."

Veddar was referring to the venue, not the country.

A quick sconce at the tour dates show the show I referred to was June 22 2010.
The shows just before Dublin were Madison Square garden (2 nights @ 20,000 each) and the Prudential Centre, NJ (2 nights @ 19,500 each).