Subway or myway?

Gerard93

Hi OP,
Regarding the branches that closed, what happens to the fitout, kitchen equipment etc., you mentioned already they charge €50,000 for this, I wonder is there any way to get some of this from branches that have closed, might help in reducing startup costs etc......

Gerard93

Also, what kind of margins do they predict you should be achieving?

bogwalrus

Gerard93 wrote: »

Hi OP,
Regarding the branches that closed, what happens to the fitout, kitchen equipment etc., you mentioned already they charge €50,000 for this, I wonder is there any way to get some of this from branches that have closed, might help in reducing startup costs etc......

I was thinking this myself. I have to take things in stages with subway but when they get back to me with fitting costs I will inquire why i can't get used equipment/fittings from the closed subways.

If it looks like a means to make more money off me then i won't go ahead as that would be a huge deterrent for me.

They initially say startup costs are 120K. But the reality in my premises is only 50K according to the preliminary meeting. when i see the breakdown i will see how much for equipmet etc.

Regarding profit margins i estimate an average 40% mark up but i have not seen any numbers from them yet.


The biggest decision will be when i see how much needs to be taken a day to cover costs etc.

I have some rough estimates but will get cracking when i have some real numbers.

Gerard93

I was thinking this myself. I have to take things in stages with subway but when they get back to me with fitting costs I will inquire why i can't get used equipment/fittings from the closed subways.

If it looks like a means to make more money off me then i won't go ahead as that would be a huge deterrent for me.

They initially say startup costs are 120K. But the reality in my premises is only 50K according to the preliminary meeting. when i see the breakdown i will see how much for equipmet etc.

Regarding profit margins i estimate an average 40% mark up but i have not seen any numbers from them yet.


The biggest decision will be when i see how much needs to be taken a day to cover costs etc.

I have some rough estimates but will get cracking when i have some real numbers.

Best of luck with it, hope it all works out, keep us posted! As said previously talk to as many people as possible and get as much figures, details etc., as you can.

Markcheese

There are other sub franchises out there,ring around and see..
If you reckon you've got the time and can put the effort in you could go it yourself and come up with a unique selling point .. A lot more risk in that and sourcing the right ingredients could cost more and soak more time than getting it all preapproved from one source.. And you'll have to spend on a design , and come up with cost effective production procedure ...

micromary

As a person who almost set up my own place but in my opinion stepped back wisely, I have noticed that more and more independent coffee stores are closing such as Millers in Swords. Sad really.

I was in the US last week and Starbucks have the market well and truly strangled over there. There is little sign of independent coffee shops around Tennessee or Georgia where I was. Subway is massive though!

here2surf

Bogwalrus

I will be opening a franchised food operation in the coming months. PM me if you want more info.

micromary

What? PM u? For what?

A_Sober_Paddy

riveratom wrote: »

Good call. For me it's like that guy in Limerick would say - location, location, location. If you've got the footfall to go with your globally recognised brand, then you could be onto a winner.

Glad to hear you have the seating. The lack of seating in some outlets is a turn-off for me tbh. I'd very seldom eat a Subway, but I do know that if I was thinking of going to say the one opposite Connolly station, I'd be reluctant to go in simply on account of there being nowhere to sit down.

The guy in Limerick, isn't that the Guard yeah? If it's him, his subways seem to be doing very well, I also believe he opens from 12-3.30 on Saturday nights and gets the crowds

Idbatterim

hey op, do you have any leeway over promos you can run in a subway? now that the sub of the day is gone, i find a minimum of E3.70 up to E4.40 for a 6 inch sub is a total joke (and I personally now, simply wont pay it). I know a guy who ran a subway, busiest one in the country at the time i believe, the one at bottom of grafton street, opposite trinity, said he got out just in time, revenue more than halved just as recession hit. the way things are at present, i reckon there should be sub of day at 2.49, 6 inch no more than 2.99 and maybe introduce 4.5 inch at 3.99 and 6 inch at 4.99. Not sure about logistics of the 4.5" medium size though... I see a lot of advantages to opening your own place though, and a lot less up front costs, responsibility and risk... Also with your own place you can sell a far more diverse range of stock than you could in a subway!

I also believe he opens from 12-3.30 on Saturday nights and gets the crowds

fair play to him if thats the case, a subway would not be what i wanted after night on the piss though! definetly healthier than chipper though...

highlandseoghan

What about doing market research around the area that your considering, find out what people think of subway? have they heard about subway? Would they pay x for a 6" and x for a footlong?

HellFireClub

I'd sooner put the 10K & the rest of it, into a well thought out business model myself than invest it in a franchise.

stedabee

I was a phone call away from setting up a coffee shop in newbridge shopping centre only 4 months ago and pulled out due to over crowding in the food court. If you have a good location and no competitors in that line of food id go for it, €60k isn't bad for subway as i was being asked for €65k for a fit out in a food court and not a very well know brand although well know in America.

Go for it, you have the knowledge of running a cafe so subway should be just as easy if not easier.

HellFireClub

stedabee wrote: »

I was a phone call away from setting up a coffee shop in newbridge shopping centre only 4 months ago and pulled out due to over crowding in the food court. If you have a good location and no competitors in that line of food id go for it, €60k isn't bad for subway as i was being asked for €65k for a fit out in a food court and not a very well know brand although well know in America.

Go for it, you have the knowledge of running a cafe so subway should be just as easy if not easier.

60k sounds like a huge risk to me at the moment in an economy where people are simply not spending and especially in the area of discretionary spending.

Put it like this, how long would it take you to gather up & save 60k at the moment?

stedabee

HellFireClub wrote: »

60k sounds like a huge risk to me at the moment in an economy where people are simply not spending and especially in the area of discretionary spending.

Put it like this, how long would it take you to gather up & save 60k at the moment?

Sorry i probably worded that wrong, €60k is a lot of money but for what hes getting and such a strong brand to me sounds like a good idea based on location, experience etc. Sure eddie rockets is €650k to set up, who in the name of god would risk that in this day and age.

HellFireClub

stedabee wrote: »

Sorry i probably worded that wrong, €60k is a lot of money but for what hes getting and such a strong brand to me sounds like a good idea based on location, experience etc. Sure eddie rockets is €650k to set up, who in the name of god would risk that in this day and age.

I know of a guy who spent that kind of money on getting into a big US franchising organisation in Ireland, it was in the business signage industry. He put a lot of trust in the strength of the brand, although it seemed to me that it didn't really have a huge presence in Ireland, but he couldn't see through what I would only call a "process of indoctrination", that he got sucked into. This was his first time in business and he literally got sucked straight in. He paid up the initial fee, (re-mortgaged his house to do this by the way!), lasted about 12 months in the industry, and then got blown straight out of the network when he couldn't pay the royalties!

The point I think I'm trying to make is that we are not living in ordinary economic times I think, not by a fúcking long shot, especially not in Ireland, please don't get me wrong here, I'd normally encourage any person to take on the journey of entrepreneurship, but by Jesus, as anyone running a small business in Ireland at the moment will know, 60K in business profit is extremely hard to gather up these days.

Don't forget, if you have a good location, you are going to get screwed on commercial rates, you are going to get screwed on public liability insurance, you might get a bit of value for rent in today's climate but probably not if the location is deemed by the landlord to be exceptional, but at the end of the day, people are not spending, they are cutting back on eating out and you can be sure they won't be any quicker to take the wallets out after the budget next month.

stedabee

HellFireClub wrote: »

I know of a guy who spent that kind of money on getting into a big US franchising organisation in Ireland, it was in the business signage industry. He put a lot of trust in the strength of the brand, although it seemed to me that it didn't really have a huge presence in Ireland, but he couldn't see through what I would only call a "process of indoctrination", that he got sucked into. This was his first time in business and he literally got sucked straight in. He paid up the initial fee, (re-mortgaged his house to do this by the way!), lasted about 12 months in the industry, and then got blown straight out of the network when he couldn't pay the royalties!

The point I think I'm trying to make is that we are not living in ordinary economic times I think, not by a fúcking long shot, especially not in Ireland, please don't get me wrong here, I'd normally encourage any person to take on the journey of entrepreneurship, but by Jesus, as anyone running a small business in Ireland at the moment will know, 60K in business profit is extremely hard to gather up these days.

Don't forget, if you have a good location, you are going to get screwed on commercial rates, you are going to get screwed on public liability insurance, you might get a bit of value for rent in today's climate but probably not if the location is deemed by the landlord to be exceptional, but at the end of the day, people are not spending, they are cutting back on eating out and you can be sure they won't be any quicker to take the wallets out after the budget next month.

I do agree with what your saying but if everything seems to be right and figures stack up i personally cant see how anyone will have the nerve to set anything up if we keep dwelling on how bad the country is. In white water i had the chance to go into a food court with a average turnover from 10 different companys of €550k, now the company in my unit previously turned over €390k and my cafe would of been the only coffee shop to serve a full Irish but had competition in other items. I was thrown off this idea after consulting my dad who has been in business for 40 years and his reasoning was its a lot to pay for a coffee shop €65k and its a over packed food court. He did mention all the numbers added up but was still coming up with things to put me off. I think he should go for it and as he has the knowledge and a good brand in a good location.

I was also going for a unit in stillorgan shopping centre for the coffee shop and everyone said the rent of €110k was to high and it wouldn't do well and now theres a starbucks in that exact unit which is packed everyday. A friend that works for leisureplex told me that they turned over more last week than leisureplex did.............kicking myself i didnt just bite the bullet and go for it. Would of got the rent down and probably 6 months free too. I really think if all the numbers stack up and your homework is done and everything seems right go for it. Hes in a position where the cafe is struggling and there's a need for a sandwich bar.

HellFireClub

stedabee wrote: »

I do agree with what your saying but if everything seems to be right and figures stack up i personally cant see how anyone will have the nerve to set anything up if we keep dwelling on how bad the country is. In white water i had the chance to go into a food court with a average turnover from 10 different companys of €550k, now the company in my unit previously turned over €390k and my cafe would of been the only coffee shop to serve a full Irish but had competition in other items. I was thrown off this idea after consulting my dad who has been in business for 40 years and his reasoning was its a lot to pay for a coffee shop €65k and its a over packed food court. He did mention all the numbers added up but was still coming up with things to put me off. I think he should go for it and as he has the knowledge and a good brand in a good location.

I was also going for a unit in stillorgan shopping centre for the coffee shop and everyone said the rent of €110k was to high and it wouldn't do well and now theres a starbucks in that exact unit which is packed everyday. A friend that works for leisureplex told me that they turned over more last week than leisureplex did.............kicking myself i didnt just bite the bullet and go for it. Would of got the rent down and probably 6 months free too. I really think if all the numbers stack up and your homework is done and everything seems right go for it. Hes in a position where the cafe is struggling and there's a need for a sandwich bar.

Well it's not an industry that I have much knowledge of, there was a Starbucks at the end of the Luas Line when it got to Tallaght, that I think has closed, and you couldn't say there there was any shortage of footfall at the end of a Luas line! I just don't think you can trust figures with the way the climate has gotten so unpredictable lately, in my own industry, (motor industry/replacement parts/servicing/maintenance), forecasts are worthless, you don't know what is going to happen next week.

I'd be extremely cautious investing/ploughing 60K cash into anything at the moment, that's all.

stedabee

HellFireClub wrote: »

Well it's not an industry that I have much knowledge of, there was a Starbucks at the end of the Luas Line when it got to Tallaght, that I think has closed, and you couldn't say there there was any shortage of footfall at the end of a Luas line! I just don't think you can trust figures with the way the climate has gotten so unpredictable lately, in my own industry, (motor industry/replacement parts/servicing/maintenance), forecasts are worthless, you don't know what is going to happen next week.

I'd be extremely cautious investing/ploughing 60K cash into anything at the moment, that's all.

I would too but I've been over cautious twice this year and both seem to be flying! At the end of the day research as much as you can and have a long hard think about future plans and if your happy and if everything stacks up I'd say go for it. I think this guy has the knowledge and know how to ruin this successfully.

HellFireClub

stedabee wrote: »

I would too but I've been over cautious twice this year and both seem to be flying! At the end of the day research as much as you can and have a long hard think about future plans and if your happy and if everything stacks up I'd say go for it. I think this guy has the knowledge and know how to ruin this successfully.

Well the one thing about franchising is that you are basically told the model that you will run with and you have to trust in it. This is where the guy I knew who got involved in a signage franchise ended up in the manure business, he had a US organisation telling him to do this and to do that, and how to react to an unfolding problem that they thought they had diagnosed correctly. It turned out that the problem all along was that the business model that was handed to him, was simply unworkable in this country during this time, there wasn't enough volume in sales to support the model he was subscribing to, there wasn't enough free money in the economy to support start up's, who would have been his top class of customer.

Do you think, when they all worked out that the economy here basically couldn't support this venture, that he got his franchise money back?!?

And all they were saying to him all the time was, "you must be doing this wrong, you must be doing that wrong", because "groupthink" back in the headquarters in the US had completely taken over!

riveratom

stedabee wrote: »

I do agree with what your saying but if everything seems to be right and figures stack up i personally cant see how anyone will have the nerve to set anything up if we keep dwelling on how bad the country is. In white water i had the chance to go into a food court with a average turnover from 10 different companys of €550k, now the company in my unit previously turned over €390k and my cafe would of been the only coffee shop to serve a full Irish but had competition in other items. I was thrown off this idea after consulting my dad who has been in business for 40 years and his reasoning was its a lot to pay for a coffee shop €65k and its a over packed food court. He did mention all the numbers added up but was still coming up with things to put me off. I think he should go for it and as he has the knowledge and a good brand in a good location.

I was also going for a unit in stillorgan shopping centre for the coffee shop and everyone said the rent of €110k was to high and it wouldn't do well and now theres a starbucks in that exact unit which is packed everyday. A friend that works for leisureplex told me that they turned over more last week than leisureplex did.............kicking myself i didnt just bite the bullet and go for it. Would of got the rent down and probably 6 months free too. I really think if all the numbers stack up and your homework is done and everything seems right go for it. Hes in a position where the cafe is struggling and there's a need for a sandwich bar.

Don't kick yourself too hard - you're forgetting the Starbucks effect there, I'm not sure a regular coffee shop would be packed out the door in quite the same way....

bogwalrus

Some very good points made.
The bank I am currently talking to is weary enough as they said footfall has dropped significantly in the square.

I am trying to get cost of fitout around 20k incl selling current equipment. This means a total investment of 30k. I think its possible.


Once more my rent is 150 a week. Rates 170 a week. Insurance under 700 a year so quite cheap for location.

I have costed for four full time employees and to break even I need to sell 75 x €5avrg meals a day 7 days s week.

I plan to be employeed full time myself so that's already my wage sorted. I just need to make a few more sales to get the profits I would like.

HellFireClub

bogwalrus wrote: »

Some very good points made.
The bank I am currently talking to is weary enough as they said footfall has dropped significantly in the square.

I am trying to get cost of fitout around 20k incl selling current equipment. This means a total investment of 30k. I think its possible.

Once more my rent is 150 a week. Rates 170 a week. Insurance under 700 a year so quite cheap for location.

I have costed for four full time employees and to break even I need to sell 75 x €5avrg meals a day 7 days s week.

I plan to be employeed full time myself so that's already my wage sorted. I just need to make a few more sales to get the profits I would like.

I'm gonna give you some seriously hard earned advice here, as someone who once folded a business that handled a lot of cash. If you take payments in cash and you are not there to supervise this, then some of it is going to go missing.

Just reading your last post OP, I'd have to seriously question why you are starting this in the first place, it's a huge amount of responsibility for what you are looking to get out of it. First of all, you need to plan for profit, not for breakeven. For the amount of exposure and responsibility you are taking on, I'd be looking for a lot more out of it than no salary and "maybe" a bit of profit that could emerge in your absence. It is unlikely there will be any profit I think if you are not there to "micro-manage" your business operations, as your profit will invariably go missing through stock shrinkage/loss, and most importantly, cash will without a question, go missing, if you are not there to supervise the taking of cash.

My accountant once said to me, when I first set out in business after I showed him a cashflow forecast with no salary in it it for myself, "sure why would you bother your bollóx taking on the exposure and the responsibility, for nothing back every week by way of salary, you'd clear 400 Euro a week with a job in Mc Donalds where you don't have to take any exposure or responsibility?!?"

I didn't take that advice seriously, because I had what I could only describe as a "Bruce Willis" type approach to entrepreneurship, I genuinely thought I was bulletproof, sure I'd take my slice when I had profit in the bank!

I've long since come around to seeing it from my accountants point of view, running any business, especially in these times is (1) a full time job AT A MINIMUM!!!, more accurately it is 2-2.5 times the hours of a normal "statutory" position, it is (2) also extremely stressful because there is no stability at the moment. In relation to (2) in my own industry, (replacement car parts), we used to have periods during the year where we knew it would be quiet, typically December as it's just before Christmas, January as it's just after Christmas, August, as people are on holidays and maybe Easter because you have Easter, Paddy's Day, and communions and conformations all in that time, what is happening now is that you have these "quiet periods" now stretching and extending themselves to such an extent, to the point where they are starting to overlap each other and you can have a quiet 6 week period followed immediately by an even quieter 4 week period.

This is all a function of the national policies that are being pursued for the purposes of appeasing the EU, make no mistake about it, we are on a self-destruct mission in this country in relation to where we are heading and the consequence of that is that Middle Class Ireland is completely and utterly broke and are barely hanging on by their fingernails, so if your customer is depending on the spending power of Middle Class Ireland right now, I'd seriously question why you would bother in the first place...

riveratom

HellFireClub wrote: »

I'm gonna give you some seriously hard earned advice here, as someone who once folded a business that handled a lot of cash. If you take payments in cash and you are not there to supervise this, then some of it is going to go missing.

Just reading your last post OP, I'd have to seriously question why you are starting this in the first place, it's a huge amount of responsibility for what you are looking to get out of it. First of all, you need to plan for profit, not for breakeven. For the amount of exposure and responsibility you are taking on, I'd be looking for a lot more out of it than no salary and "maybe" a bit of profit that could emerge in your absence. It is unlikely there will be any profit I think if you are not there to "micro-manage" this, as your profit will invariably go missing through stock shrinkage/loss, and most importantly, cash will without a question, go missing, if you are not there to supervise the taking of cash.

My accountant once said to me, when I first set out in business after I showed him a cashflow forecast with no salary in it it for myself, "sure why would you bother your bollóx taking on the exposure and the responsibility, for nothing back every week by way of salary, you'd clear 400 Euro a week with a job in Mc Donalds where you don't have to take any exposure or responsibility?!?"

I didn't take that advice seriously, because I had what I could only describe as a "Bruce Willis" type approach to entrepreneurship, I genuinely thought I was bulletproof, sure I'd take my slice when I had profit in the bank!

I've long since come around to seeing it from my accountants point of view, running any business, especially in these times is (1) a full time job AT A MINIMUM!!!, more accurately it is 2-2.5 times the hours of a normal "statutory" position, it is (2) also extremely stressful because there is no stability at the moment. In relation to (2) in my own industry, (replacement car parts), we used to have periods during the year where we knew it would be quiet, typically December as it's just before Christmas, January as it's just after Christmas, August, as people are on holidays and maybe Easter because you have Easter, Paddy's Day, and communions and conformations all in that time, what is happening now is that you have these "quiet periods" now stretching and extending themselves to such an extent, to the point where they are starting to overlap each other and you can have a quiet 6 week period followed immediately by an even quieter 4 week period.

This is all a function of the national policies that are being pursued for the purposes of appeasing the EU, make no mistake about it, Middle Class Ireland is completely and utterly broke and barely hanging on by their fingernails, so if your customer is depending on the spending power of Middle Class Ireland right now, I'd seriously question why you would bother in the first place...

Hey bogwalrus,

I doubt I have even a fraction of the business experience HFC has, and we don't agree on some things non-business related (!), but he is making a serious amount of sense here. Even I noted the fact that you talked about hitting a break-even point above, as opposed to profit. You need to be thinking of this in terms of your profit margin, not in terms of making the numbers add up to not making a loss.

And as for not working in the business yourself?! That's madness. You can't be seriously thinking of putting all this effort and investment into a Subway franchise while doing a 9-5 on the side?! You'll need to be there nearly all the time, making sure everything is on track and monitoring your staff closely, especially in the earliest stages. You simply can't afford not to!

HellFireClub

riveratom wrote: »

Hey bogwalrus,

I doubt I have even a fraction of the business experience HFC has, and we don't agree on some things non-business related (!), but he is making a serious amount of sense here. Even I noted the fact that you talked about hitting a break-even point above, as opposed to profit. You need to be thinking of this in terms of your profit margin, not in terms of making the numbers add up to not making a loss.

And as for not working in the business yourself?! That's madness. You can't be seriously thinking of putting all this effort and investment into a Subway franchise while doing a 9-5 on the side?! You'll need to be there nearly all the time, making sure everything is on track and monitoring your staff closely, especially in the earliest stages. You simply can't afford not to!

Haha if myself an Tom agree on something, it's defo worth listening to lol!

bogwalrus

Thanks for the reply's, the harsher the better in my eye's as we are talking a fair bit of cash.

I should have explained that i'm being very harsh/worst case scenario with my numbers.

I will of course be there all the time and i don't actually need four full time staff. I even added an extra 200euro on (hidden costs) even though i'm pretty sure i have calculated all this in.

So really what i'm saying is i have a set of harsh projections that i am looking at in fear i'll be too positive when looking at the numbers.

I did have a conversation with a wise man today who fits lots of food places and also has a few takeaways and other businness himself. He basically told me stay away from subway.

He says they are not strong anymore and losing customers everyday due to the pricing.

He did say that the places which are doing well are cheap fastfood/deli sit down operations that offer bits of everything for a great price. sandwich and chips with chicken goujons etc.

He said focus on family's with kids and then just school kids looking to spend €3 for lunch. He told me that I should not be taking account of the passing trade as lots of people passing through towns still wont stop even if hungry.


The conversation left me scratching my head. I must say it is really hard to figure out what will and won't work.

HellFireClub

bogwalrus wrote: »

Thanks for the reply's, the harsher the better in my eye's as we are talking a fair bit of cash.

I should have explained that i'm being very harsh/worst case scenario with my numbers.

I will of course be there all the time and i don't actually need four full time staff. I even added an extra 200euro on (hidden costs) even though i'm pretty sure i have calculated all this in.

So really what i'm saying is i have a set of harsh projections that i am looking at in fear i'll be too positive when looking at the numbers.

I did have a conversation with a wise man today who fits lots of food places and also has a few takeaways and other businness himself. He basically told me stay away from subway.

He says they are not strong anymore and losing customers everyday due to the pricing.

He did say that the places which are doing well are cheap fastfood/deli sit down operations that offer bits of everything for a great price. sandwich and chips with chicken goujons etc.

He said focus on family's with kids and then just school kids looking to spend €3 for lunch. He told me that I should not be taking account of the passing trade as lots of people passing through towns still wont stop even if hungry.


The conversation left me scratching my head. I must say it is really hard to figure out what will and won't work.

Right now OP, it's all about one thing and one thing only, assuming that you can supply a quality product, and that one thing is PRICE. In my own industry (replacement car parts), quality has gone straight out the fúcking window in the name of the best price, as people now resort to scrapyards for replacement parts, used tyre outlets now for "new" tyres, all to save a few quid (that they don't even have!).

As your colleague there said, Subway are losing business because of their prices, Eddie Rockets is another outlet that is learning the same simple lesson.

Here's something that is a big huge problem in my own industry at the moment, say you have a competitor nearby who isn't playing by the rules, (as in a competitor is deciding not to charge VAT, or is hiring workers casually for "cash" on the cheap, thereby giving themselves an illegal price advantage), that business can in all likelihood, donkey along for a 2-3 year period, taking market share off you every day, Revenue will probably not even be aware of them, if you make a complaint to Revenue, it will most likely not be acted upon, or at least not within an acceptable time frame that will allow you to compete with them before you find that the figures are just not stacking up in your favour, because some bóllox around the corner is undercutting you on a sambo by a Euro or can do deals all week long that you can't do, because his model is based on an unlawful set of figures, his model is based on him trousering the VAT, PRSI and PAYE due to Revenue.

This is going on everywhere at the moment, and if you think there is any urgency on the part of Revenue to clamp down on this, let me assure you that there isn't!

The market for everything now in the domestic economy is now obsessed with one thing only and that is price. Maybe for what people are putting into their mouths, there is a finer appreciation for quality, but I had an interesting conversation the other day with a customer who was pricing me off against an online black market operator. When I told my customer that he was pricing me off someone who was trousering the VAT and tax due to Revenue, what I was told back was, "sure what the fúck would you be at paying VAT and any tax to those gobshítes?!?"

It's now popular to be able to cut out the taxman, it's almost seen as a quick sharp kick in the face to the bastárds who are running this country into the ground.

Clearly I have strong opinions in this whole area, but I have them for a reason, I'm at the very front line of our economy and I see the insanity that is going on every day, I see the scams, the blagging, the lot of it, the most difficult thing I see every week is people going out of business, and the sheer personal trauma that comes with that, business proprietors not paying themselves because the money isn't there after everyone else has been paid, and these are small business operations, taxi's, couriers, deli's, mechanics, motor factors, car sales outlets that have been around for decades. Don't think that these events as they unfold, don't cause huge personal turmoil and trauma for those who ultimately stand behind these small business operations, I see long term relationships breaking up, I saw one suicide, complete and utter hopelessness and depression.

bogwalrus

Thanks for the reality check. I see exactly what you mean and to be honest I really have very few options since i have been self employed for the last year. I cant just hold off and wait. I need to have some sort of income in a trade I am comfortable in such as food service etc.


I'm keeping all options open but I know this town I am in and I just want to put the best fitting food business in which will have the smallest risk. This is why i thought the subway brand would be stronger but if it really is price then maybe i should re consider my own premises and just focus on really cheap lunch for school kids and workers of the town. If i get the passing trade in the cars then that will be a plus.

Back to the drawing board it seems.

Thanks again for all the advice. It really is tough going out there.

riveratom

bogwalrus wrote: »

Thanks for the reply's, the harsher the better in my eye's as we are talking a fair bit of cash.

I should have explained that i'm being very harsh/worst case scenario with my numbers.

I will of course be there all the time and i don't actually need four full time staff. I even added an extra 200euro on (hidden costs) even though i'm pretty sure i have calculated all this in.

So really what i'm saying is i have a set of harsh projections that i am looking at in fear i'll be too positive when looking at the numbers.

I did have a conversation with a wise man today who fits lots of food places and also has a few takeaways and other businness himself. He basically told me stay away from subway.

He says they are not strong anymore and losing customers everyday due to the pricing.

He did say that the places which are doing well are cheap fastfood/deli sit down operations that offer bits of everything for a great price. sandwich and chips with chicken goujons etc.

He said focus on family's with kids and then just school kids looking to spend €3 for lunch. He told me that I should not be taking account of the passing trade as lots of people passing through towns still wont stop even if hungry.


The conversation left me scratching my head. I must say it is really hard to figure out what will and won't work.

I think you need to step back from things a little and ask the question every entrepreneur has to remind himself to ask every once in a while...'what do people want'?

Here's an idea - why not take some time and go out around a few different towns at the times you would hope/expect your Subway to be busy - and see which cafes / delis / restaurants / coffee shops are actually busy?

I actually would be of the same mind as the wise man you mention above. I was to mention it earlier - for me, Subway is a bit of a dead duck, a bit passé. In theory, it is a strong brand. In reality, I think people are really looking for somewhere that just offers three things:

1) Good selection of quality food at a reasonable price (quality, maybe home-cooked - not 'fast-food' type stuff)

2) Somewhere they can sit down and be comfortable in nice surroundings (that includes clean facilities)

3) Somewhere that's in an easy to reach location

On point 3, it's not as important as the first two, and it doesn't sound like you'll have any issues there. Points 1 and 2 are the top ones. I live in a big town, and all of the places I see that are always busy and have people milling around have these points nailed.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of consumers in 2012 - they don't have much money to spend (or any), so when they do want to get out of the house for an hour and spend what little they have, do they want to go to a generic globo-brand and eat a processed sandwich with dry bread standing up, or do they want to spend that five or ten euro in a warm, cosy, comfortable cafe with comfy couches / seating and friendly local staff?

I know a large town where there are a few of these cafes (one of them doesn't have the couches, etc - but it does have plenty of tables and is always packed), and they all look to be doing well. In one in particular which is in a very central location, there are probably only one a couple of seats free at 1pm (i.e. you get seated as someone else is leaving).

The other things is diversity. In one of the above cafes, they also do take-out meals. So, not only can you go in and sit down comfortably for an hour, you can also get a take-out meal. I also know 2 of the 3 do great coffee. You have to appeal to as wide a range of tastes as possible.

For me, that's the way things are going all round. People know they don't need to be ripped off anymore, they want to spend their few euro heading out to somewhere nice and welcoming where they know they'll get a good feed and leave feeling content. That's more important now than ever.

riveratom

Just to clarify on the above - I don't mean that Subway isn't good quality, I had a perfectly nice 6 inch sub there the other day! At the same time, it isn't exactly the most filling or the most hearty/nutritious - and it's not what people think of when they plan to head out for a nice bite to eat along the lines of what I said above.