Referendum 15th Nov

Polar Ice

The upcoming Referendum RE New Student Centre - Arena Extension & Development of Maguires playing pitches.

This will affect all UL students.

Thoughts?

MajesticDonkey

How long is it supposed to take to complete?

Polar Ice

Where's the website with all the information for the referendum?

(I know there's no website, it's just shocking it's hard to find info online.)

All there really is:

• http://www.anfocal.ie/news/5364/landslide-needed-to-ensure-levy-referendum-victory
• http://www.anfocal.ie/news/5199/new-student-centre-campus-developments-will-cost-e40m
• http://issuu.com/ulsu/docs/af_xxi_1_ (Pages 1,3,4)
• http://ulwolves.ie/info/publications/UL%20Wolves%20Newsletter%20Sept%202012.pdf (Pages 1,10,11)

Shouldn't there be a basic website with some info. 4 pages maybe.
1. Overview
2. Student Centre
3. Pitches
4. Arena extention
Maybe something like http://www.childrensreferendum.ie/ except even more basic?

Polar Ice

After doing a little digging:
http://www.ulsu.ie/about/studentcentreplans
http://www.ulsu.ie/file/Student%20Centre%20and%20Dynamic%20Music%20Hub%2016-7-12%20Rev%201.pdf

The links aren't exactly in a visible part of the site. They're under the 'about' menu, and there's noting in the news stream about it.

Gael23

I oppose this simply because of the increase in the student levy. Now is not the right time to increase this with constant increases in the Student contribution.

ChrisOF

There are some things that should be bourn in mind when it comes to this project. Specifically if the referendum is not passed, planning permission for the arena extension will lapse, its not as simple as rejecting it now and having it as an option later.

There is some stuff that is now or never (Well not in the near future anyway)


Edit: I agree there is a woefull lack of publicity on this though, hardly no one knows there is to be a referendum next week.

reunion

ChrisOF wrote: »

There are some things that should be bourn in mind when it comes to this project. Specifically if the referendum is not passed, planning permission for the arena extension will lapse, its not as simple as rejecting it now and having it as an option later.

There is some stuff that is now or never (Well not in the near future anyway)


Edit: I agree there is a woefull lack of publicity on this though, hardly no one knows there is to be a referendum next week.

The referendum is in 2 weeks on the 8th of November. Not next week

Jester252

Where did ye find the date

Polar Ice

Jester252 wrote: »

Where did ye find the date

Wolves.ie website. A comment by Paul Lee.

Gael23

ChrisOF wrote: »

There are some things that should be bourn in mind when it comes to this project. Specifically if the referendum is not passed, planning permission for the arena extension will lapse, its not as simple as rejecting it now and having it as an option later.

There is some stuff that is now or never (Well not in the near future anyway)

Thats a fair point but the reality is students have to pay for it.

Polar Ice

Presently, these are the student charges in the Universities. (From a quick search of University websites. Don't hold me to exact numbers.)
DCU = 38
UL = 72
TCD = 85
NUIM = 97
UCC = 155
UCD = 183
NUIG = 224

If the referendum is passed, I believe the UL student charge will increase to 130 for the time duration to cover the loans to pay for the developments proposed.
An additional 20 will be added to that as an operations levy once the student centre is substantially complete.

To rank against student charges in the other universities, the current UL charge is low. If passed, the UL charge would move to the middle of the table.

J_E

Call me naive (and this is a relatively uninformed opinion), but with all the talks of budget cuts and belt-tightening in the university, doesn't this seem like an unnecessary, overly ambitious project? Would the addition of a stage next to the CSIS cause noise problems for anyone working in there I wonder? Wonder how this would affect the opening hours for connected buildings...

Polar Ice

Cydoniac wrote: »

Would the addition of a stage next to the CSIS cause noise problems for anyone working in there I wonder?

For anyone interested in CSIS, I strongly suggest you look at this document:
http://www.ulsu.ie/file/Student%20Ce...%20Rev%201.pdf

Cydoniac wrote: »

Call me naive (and this is a relatively uninformed opinion), but with all the talks of budget cuts and belt-tightening in the university, doesn't this seem like an unnecessary, overly ambitious project?

Capital projects are different to operational budgets.

eoins23456

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

How long is it supposed to take to complete?

December 2015 I think

Chimaera

As I posted in another thread, I'm opposed to the three projects being lumped into one vote: it's disingenuous to force people's hand like that and I think it'll backfire on the union.

There's a need for the sports facilities to be upgraded. The student centre is a nice idea but not strictly necessary as it does not provide a significant improvement over existing facilities on campus.

Is there any word from UL about how they plan to proceed if the students do not vote for this? Will they go ahead and seek funding from other sources to complete the projects and bill the use of the completed facilities to the SU? Will they implement part of the plans? Will they drop it altogether?

If it's passed, what becomes of the existing student centre? (The one that was paid for with ~IR£4 million of students' money)

Given that the proposed new students' centre is jointly funded by UL and ULSU, is there a Memorandum of Understanding in place yet to detail how the use of the building will be managed? Will it be UL that have the final say about it with the SU having to do what they're told? Will the building be divided into UL and SU areas with each having control over their own areas? Are there provisions in place to prevent UL turning around and charging for use of facilities that have been paid for already?

sceptre

Polar Ice wrote: »

Presently, these are the student charges in the Universities. (From a quick search of University websites. Don't hold me to exact numbers.)
DCU = 38
UL = 72
TCD = 85
NUIM = 97
UCC = 155
UCD = 183
NUIG = 224

If the referendum is passed, I believe the UL student charge will increase to 130 for the time duration to cover the loans to pay for the developments proposed.
An additional 20 will be added to that as an operations levy once the student centre is substantially complete.

To rank against student charges in the other universities, the current UL charge is low. If passed, the UL charge would move to the middle of the table.

In a few of the other colleges, those charges include free (well, no additional charge for) use of the sports centre by students - the only ones I checked were Trinity, NUIG, UCC and UCD, where the charge covers free (no additional charge for) sports centre usage (UCD specifically offers the gym at no extra cost but charges for pool use).

In UL, there's a membership fee for individual student usage in addition to the charge for building it. It's not a like-for-like comparison in all cases. If the UL charge went to 130 and doesn't include no-charge usage of the facilities, it would be the highest levy charge in the country that doesn't offer free usage of the sports centre it's paying for. Easier to compare apples with apples.:)

As 8-month (academic year) arena membership for students is €195, if you add that optional element to the mandatory €72, making €267 (it might be more accurate to add the full year membership of €258 but I'm picking the lower figure), one could reasonably argue that the current charge is the highest in the country, on a like-for-like basis. Maybe it's not easier to compare apples with apples but it's a better idea of reality, even with unfortunate added fuzziness.

supackofidiots

I was under the impression that this could only be put to referendum if it was passed at the recent agm?? and that didnt meet quorum so this was now off the table?

Gael23

sceptre wrote: »

In a few of the other colleges, those charges include free (well, no additional charge for) use of the sports centre by students - the only ones I checked were Trinity, NUIG, UCC and UCD, where the charge covers free (no additional charge for) sports centre usage (UCD specifically offers the gym at no extra cost but charges for pool use).

In UL, there's a membership fee for individual student usage in addition to the charge for building it. It's not a like-for-like comparison in all cases. If the UL charge went to 130 and doesn't include no-charge usage of the facilities, it would be the highest levy charge in the country that doesn't offer free usage of the sports centre it's paying for. Easier to compare apples with apples.:)

As 8-month (academic year) arena membership for students is €195, if you add that optional element to the mandatory €72, making €267 (it might be more accurate to add the full year membership of €258 but I'm picking the lower figure), one could reasonably argue that the current charge is the highest in the country, on a like-for-like basis. Maybe it's not easier to compare apples with apples but it's a better idea of reality, even with unfortunate added fuzziness.

I know gym usage is included for free in UCD, not sure about others

sceptre

supackofidiots wrote: »

I was under the impression that this could only be put to referendum if it was passed at the recent agm?? and that didnt meet quorum so this was now off the table?

*looks up intertubes*

A referendum can be called by a general meeting, student council or a petition signed by 200 students. The first two would require a quorate meeting. The draft constitution (which I don't think has been passed, correct me if I'm wrong) specifically requires a two-thirds majority at a quorate general meeting or student council (implicit in the older constitution) or a 200-signature petition.

Of course, the "new" (in the new constitution) student council is different to the "old" (in the old constitution) student council as the thing that was student council is now called the student forum so it, all of a sudden, matters whether the new constitution has been approved by an AGM. If the old one is in place, it needs to be approved by a full meeting of the student forum as that used to be the student council - if the new one is in place, it needs to be approved by the smaller student council. Just for legalities, you understand - there's always one student or a thousand who may legitimately refuse to pay if the simplicities aren't covered (as technically the referendum would be invalid if they pick the wrong one) - it's always important to cover them and lawyers sometimes aren't the best at noticing these things on their own.

tl;dr version: One assumes (even if one should never really assume) that there's been a quorate student council or forum (whichever is necessary) or a big petition which called for the referendum. I would assume that the promulgation (lovely word, that) of the referendum wording would include that as a note.

reunion

sceptre wrote: »

In a few of the other colleges, those charges include free ....

.... even with unfortunate added fuzziness.

This isn't the exact same comparison. In UL currently if you don't have gym membership, you don't pay €195. The €72 currently goes towards capital development (the boathouse).

If this is voted on (and passed), the rate for students will be reduced in the gym (as far as I'm aware, I could be wrong). It would be reduced so that paying the levy and gym membership would be less than paying the €72 now and gym membership. This would also give people the choice of gym membership.

It was passed by student council/class reps/SU mini wolf babies/ whatever you want to call it. There were also a motion circulating a few weeks for 200 signatures. Don't know which one called the referendum but it has been called.

Chimaera wrote: »

As I posted in another thread, I'm opposed to the three projects being lumped into one vote: it's disingenuous to force people's hand like that and I think it'll backfire on the union.

From the previous thread, our views differ on this. As the referendum is about the 3 projects, instead of bringing up this point again, stick to the referendum itself and vote on the 8th of November.

Chimaera wrote: »

There's a need for the sports facilities to be upgraded. The student centre is a nice idea but not strictly necessary as it does not provide a significant improvement over existing facilities on campus.

Is there any word from UL about how they plan to proceed if the students do not vote for this? Will they go ahead and seek funding from other sources to complete the projects and bill the use of the completed facilities to the SU? Will they implement part of the plans? Will they drop it altogether?

If this vote (and a possible vote in second semester if this fails) both fail. The levy on the boat house and the arena extension planning permission expires and no arena extension will happen. Maguires and the SU will stay the way it is. The college will NOT be able to source ANY funding WITHOUT ~50% secured beforehand (hence the referendum). All plans would be effectively dropped.

Chimaera wrote: »

If it's passed, what becomes of the existing student centre? (The one that was paid for with ~IR£4 million of students' money)

Given that the proposed new students' centre is jointly funded by UL and ULSU, is there a Memorandum of Understanding in place yet to detail how the use of the building will be managed? Will it be UL that have the final say about it with the SU having to do what they're told? Will the building be divided into UL and SU areas with each having control over their own areas? Are there provisions in place to prevent UL turning around and charging for use of facilities that have been paid for already?

The Student Union could potentially become the medical centre/SAA (the SU president discussed this at C&S council). The Union would get a rental income, however I don't know the amount.

There is no point in creating a memorandum of understanding until the referendum is passed. Without the referendum, it would be all for waste. No point in having the limitied Sabbats and limited C&S staff tied up creating (and students paying for) a legal document that might not be required. If these projects are approved, a Memorandum of Understanding will be created.

Chimaera

From the previous thread, our views differ on this. As the referendum is about the 3 projects, instead of bringing up this point again, stick to the referendum itself and vote on the 8th of November.

It's a valid point, revelant to the discussion at hand.

The Student Union could potentially become the medical centre/SAA (the SU president discussed this at C&S council). The Union would get a rental income, however I don't know the amount.

That's all a bit vague. Has there been any formal communication with Buildings and Estates about this yet? Students are entitled to know exactly how a facility they paid for will be disposed of?

There is no point in creating a memorandum of understanding until the referendum is passed. Without the referendum, it would be all for waste. No point in having the limitied Sabbats and limited C&S staff tied up creating (and students paying for) a legal document that might not be required. If these projects are approved, a Memorandum of Understanding will be created.

The whole point of having one before the vote is so that students can be confident they won't get shafted by the University before they commit €40 million of their own funds to the project. It's a huge amount of money whatever way you look at it and the SU is under an obligation to ensure it gets spent properly and to the absolute benefit of the student body it represents. Anything less is a sellout to the University.

sceptre

reunion wrote: »

This isn't the exact same comparison. In UL currently if you don't have gym membership, you don't pay €195. The €72 currently goes towards capital development (the boathouse).

That's the trouble - it isn't a like-for-like comparison when listing the mandatory charge in UL versus the mandatory charge in other colleges. It's up to people to choose which one they want to pick - the larger or the smaller but I suggest that it's important to pick the same conditions in both cases. The 72 obviously goes towards capital development as that was the condition under which it was approved. I assume that the entire loan on the building of the arena has been paid off then based on what you've said? At some point they were operating in parallel with the boathouse loan but as the projected payoff date on the arena loan was based on a smaller number of students than are currently attending, that may well be completed by now. In any case, in some other colleges, paying the higher charge (in Trinity, barely a higher charge, especially when the €8pa for USI membership is discounted) currently gets students something that paying the charge in UL does not.

It'd be cool if the proposed higher charge in UL would include a lowering of the arena membership charge for students. I would suggest that this is the sort of thing that would ideally need to be highlighted in advance of the vote, like the proposed later usage of the current student centre. Not in a vague way, in something akin to a concrete way. These are basic things that should be communicated to the students who are asked to pay more. Every time the government increases the main student charge, student representatives highlight that students are paying more for the same service or a lesser service. It would seem rational that people would be informed of what's going to happen with the things they already (at least theoretically) own or paid for the construction of. Basic stuff. Communication is a good thing. Information is a good thing. It also makes it easier to sell the proposal as people stop asking questions that should already have answers:)

On the whole, it's probably even a good thing. But without laying out the information for people to make an informed choice with all the information, it's a far harder sell. Basic stuff. The basics should always be covered - otherwise, people legitimately worry about the bigger stuff.

Polar Ice

Polar Ice wrote: »

Presently, these are the student charges in the Universities. (From a quick search of University websites. Don't hold me to exact numbers.)
DCU = 38
UL = 72
TCD = 85
NUIM = 97
UCC = 155
UCD = 183
NUIG = 224

sceptre wrote: »

In a few of the other colleges, those charges include free (well, no additional charge for) use of the sports centre by students - the only ones I checked were Trinity, NUIG, UCC and UCD, where the charge covers free (no additional charge for) sports centre usage (UCD specifically offers the gym at no extra cost but charges for pool use).

...

Maybe it's not easier to compare apples with apples but it's a better idea of reality, even with unfortunate added fuzziness.

I'm not sure comparing apples with apples, as you've put it, is possible (too much fuzziness).
Using UCD as the example, yes they have free use of the gym but not between 6:15pm and 8:15pm (peak hours). As you pointed out, use of the pool in UCD is not included in their student charge. That costs €100 more for the year, or €4 per each use.

I only inserted the figures as a quick reference (my comment "don't hold me to exact figures"). If you want to more accurately compare them it's not just a matter of slapping on full gym membership for the year.

I still think it's fair to say that presently UL's student charge is lower than average.

(I think it's worth commenting that both sceptre and I are alumni)

reunion wrote: »

From the previous thread, our views differ on this. As the referendum is about the 3 projects, instead of bringing up this point again, stick to the referendum itself and vote on the 8th of November.

Chimaera wrote: »

It's a valid point, revelant to the discussion at hand.

Chimaera made this point at the recent AGM. The ULSU response was that they didn't think the 3 items would pass individually, so they've been grouped together. It is relevant and interesting to note the strategy being used to try and pass the referendum.

sceptre

Polar Ice wrote: »

I'm not sure comparing apples with apples, as you've put it, is possible (too much fuzziness).

*... snip - full post available above*

I only inserted the figures as a quick reference (my comment "don't hold me to exact figures"). If you want to more accurately compare them it's not just a matter of slapping on full gym membership for the year.

Absolutely. And it's still a good thing that you took the time to find them and post them (and, as far as I can see, your figures are exactly correct) - they're useful to know. Adding to the small pile of available information would be reason enough to post them and posting them does a bit more than just that.

Making a comparison when somewhere else charges A and gets B, while UL charges C and gets D is pretty difficult, in fairness. A direct like-for-like comparison isn't easily possible and may be impossible but, unfortunately, if it's impossible then the only use the figures have is to reveal a level of annual specific expenditure that different groups of students have historically chosen to bear at different times for different reasons. And if that's the only thing it indicates, then the comparison is really only of use to an accountant somewhere in a windowless office justifying a charge regardless of purpose. That list you've provided is of more use than that. It's a fuzzy comparison and, really, a mesh of fuzzy comparisons but, you know, you gotta start somewhere:)

supackofidiots

I'll vote no. I don't think in this climate it is the right time to be building unnecessary stuff and burdening students and families with any further unnecessary financial burden. and the nightclub plan is pretty horrific.

J_E

I'm not feeling this either, seems more frivolous than necessary right now. Would do them better to improve on the Students Union they have right now also rather than simply expand. It's something for the future though.

wnolan1992

The more I think about it, the further I lean towards the No side.

There's a lot of improvements which would be possible with the new Student Centre, but there're a few aspects to it that seem unnecessary and just there for the sake of being there.

Still undecided though, must give a look over the plans again later.

freyners

whats deciding this vote for me is the maguires re development, its pathetic that this has been an issue for so long so its a yes from me

Doctor_Mossie

From what I understand, there is a time limit on the funding, in that a large amount is no longer available by this time next year, so the Union might have maybe one more chance to pass this if the Referendum doesnt reach quorum. So if it seems frivolous, or badly timed, its because if they dont do it now, they wont have the opportunity to do it in the future.

Ginge Young

I'll be voting yes, and I will be pushing all others to do so. The simple fact of the matter is that right now, these buildings are going to be cheaper than ever to build. It is important to not forget the financial burden on a lot of students but I maintain that an additional 60 euro is relatively nothing, so long as students are helping their families out in any way that they can. For parents with 2 or more kids going to UL it can be a bit much, but if the students want this, it is more than affordable.

As for leaving this off, I don't believe that will work, Clubs and Societies are at breaking point. Rooms can now only be booked in the kemmy at night, the main building is not longer available, storage has always been and issue and not to mention the issue with pitches and getting maguires fixed up.

From my own personal side of things, the climbing wall, we need a new one, the solution we have from buildings and estates currently is a temporary solution, the long term solution being the arena. Without a climbing wall the club will die.

The additional sports facilities inside the arena will help all the other Clubs and Socs too.

People are getting mixed up with the nightclub thing: it is a venue for absolutely anything you want, a concert, a play, intervarsities etc etc.

60 euro extra? 3 less nights out on the town over 12 months.

I believe this entire development is needed and overall will help boost students involvement in all aspects of the campus community.

Gael23

Leaning towards the opposed side too, I think €150 is far too high for the student levy. I'm not going to argue with ginges point because its correct but I just think its too much to ask off students and their parents at the moment. People might say its €70 a year but that's on top of increases in the student service charge and all the other taxes/charges that people have to pay at the moment.