Referendum 15th Nov

ninty9er

Chimaera wrote: »

That's all a bit vague. Has there been any formal communication with Buildings and Estates about this yet? Students are entitled to know exactly how a facility they paid for will be disposed of?

Who do you think commissioned an architect and has approved the redesignation of use for CSiS? Buildings and Estates were one of the first ports of call

Chimaera wrote: »

The whole point of having one before the vote is so that students can be confident they won't get shafted by the University before they commit €40 million of their own funds to the project. It's a huge amount of money whatever way you look at it and the SU is under an obligation to ensure it gets spent properly and to the absolute benefit of the student body it represents. Anything less is a sellout to the University.

It would be approx €20m if passed, overall costs estimated in the region of €40m. The referendum wording covers use of monies.

The current space didn't work on any level with architects without costing significantly more than what's proposed due to the restrictiveness of the site. It would have involved building on all outdoor spaces within the current centre. It's not suited to being a social centre due to it's architecture, which seems to have been a more important consideration in the 90s than fitness for purpose.

Whilst this wasn't my favoured option, it is the best compromise now that CSiS is to be included in the plans. The Arena plans are available, I've seen them, but I can't remember if I'd gotten a soft copy.

On the cost side, it's a significant increase and will cost each student in UL from September an additional €52 or €1 a week, and when complete a €20 operational/refurbishment sinking fund charge, the lack thereof being the main failure of the boathouse to date. There is a misunderstading here that the other referenda were passed in glorious economic times, that may be true of the Boathouse, but the others were not. 1995 Ireland wasn't exactly a booming place, but those priviliged enough to be in a university had the foresight to give so that following generations of students could benefit. Many of those who voted in 1995 never got the benefit of the current centre, the same with those in 2003 who voted for the boathouse.

Each project has its merits, but due to the nature of everyone looking out for their own patch, it has been necessary to combine the referendum, in the end everyone gets what they want if passed. I'll be on campus to promote the referendum that week if at all possible.

Polar Ice

Chimaera wrote: »

That's all a bit vague. Has there been any formal communication with Buildings and Estates about this yet? Students are entitled to know exactly how a facility they paid for will be disposed of

ninty9er wrote: »

Who do you think commissioned an architect and has approved the redesignation of use for CSiS? Buildings and Estates were one of the first ports of call

You seem to have answered the first part of Chimaera's question, but not the second. I think people would still be interested to know what happens to the existing SU building? (Specifics)

ninty9er wrote: »

Whilst this wasn't my favoured option, it is the best compromise now that CSiS is to be included in the plans. The Arena plans are available, I've seen them, but I can't remember if I'd gotten a soft copy.

With one week to go until the vote it would be great if people could easily access this information. In some of the earlier posts in the thread I posted everything I could find, but I haven't seen arena plans. Anyone care to post them?

I'm kinda surprised that the ULSU page has zero details about the total cost, the percentage students are covering from that, etc... Based on 12k students and a 130 capital charge, it seems to roughly fit with the 20m (accounting for interest repayments too) ninty9er mentioned above.

I started this thread to try and help inform people. I'm not trying to argue yes or no, I'm just hoping people post more info. That said, the specific wording for the referendum and it's conditions leave much to be desired.

With one week until the vote a lot of students seem desperately uninformed.

More stuff: http://prezi.com/qu3vmupxl79o/referendum/?auth_key=310d4b43a5b6250d2ee13785f5f7902957903caa (A presentation shown to C&S - no details on slides)

J_E

Still think €150 is steep, and not even a free gym of some sort to ease the burden. On top of rising registration fees every year it's an awful lot of money for some people to have to pay. I'm still leaning towards a no even though I understand that students in years to come might benefit from it. I just don't see it as a necessary thing right now.

Also think it's ridiculous that this hasn't been promoted properly so close to the date. Loads of people I've been talking to aren't even aware of this, that's not on for a project this big.

Jester252

Is the vote on this week?

wnolan1992

Jester252 wrote: »

Is the vote on this week?

The 8th. Thursday next week.

Polar Ice

Shockingly, yet unsurprisingly, there was no real article in the weeks An Focal about the referendum.

The SU president wrote one paragraph about it on page 7, but that was it.

Polar Ice

Arena extension architectural plans: http://www.projarch.com/UL_Arena_Extension-project150.html

Ginge Young

Did a video take today, so there should hopefully be a promotional video up before the weekend is out or on Monday or something.

canned_ulkc

A lot of great discussion going on there folks. I'm quite surprised that there doesn't seem to be a lot of promotion coming from the SU on this.....

If I still had a vote I'd vote yes. I don't really go for the "€150 is a bit expensive" argument. It's a complete red herring IMO. Sure you'd spend a lot more than the additional €80 over the course of a college semester on beer and bonbons. I know people are stretched these days but it's simply not a valid argument.

And on the point of people being stretched - there will be significant employment created in the building of these projects.

People currently in college have a lot to thank previous students for and this is an opportunity to do the same for future students for what is truly a pretty small cost.

Ginge Young

Couldn't agree any more.

I realize there are a lot of issues surrounding the amount of information that is out there and that argument is valid, but wait and see what happens next week, if it still doesn't peak peoples interest it doesn't.

It's 60 euro extra, I believe the 150 will come into effect when the Student Centre is built, so that is further down.

60 euro extra is one day of work or 3 less nights out on the town. If students' want this, it is easily obtainable to them, it just a question of whether or not they want to go through the effort or not.

Times are tough but in the long run this is the best solution and may be our only time to get it. I only wish I wasn't teaching 20 hours next week so I could campaign properly.

Ave Sodalis

canned_ulkc wrote: »

I don't really go for the "€150 is a bit expensive" argument. It's a complete red herring IMO. Sure you'd spend a lot more than the additional €80 over the course of a college semester on beer and bonbons. I know people are stretched these days but it's simply not a valid argument.

It is a valid argument though, and the reason I'd be opposed to it (although I'm yet undecided). I don't drink and can just about afford the year, relying completely on the grant. My whole year is budgeted out, down to the last cent. I don't use the gym or its facilities and I don't quite understand the necessity of a new student centre (although, since I only really use the library and lecture theatres/labs, I don't know about this)

J_E

sup_dude wrote: »

It is a valid argument though, and the reason I'd be opposed to it (although I'm yet undecided). I don't drink and can just about afford the year, relying completely on the grant. My whole year is budgeted out, down to the last cent. I don't use the gym or its facilities and I don't quite understand the necessity of a new student centre (although, since I only really use the library and lecture theatres/labs, I don't know about this)

My situation too, in fact I've had to take a year off because I couldn't afford the cost of living in Limerick and college expenses. You have to think of all students when raising the cost of college like this, especially for something not necessary right now in time.

ninty9er

Over the typical 4 year undergrad, each student currently pays €288 for capital facilities mainly for use by a minority.

A current first year will pay €432 over the course of a degree, €256 extra, or €1.23 per week over the course of 4 years. €1.23 per week is less than the cost of 1 bus journey, a Coke contour bottle, a sliced pan, 2 litres of milk, a days parking....you get where I'm going with this.

The harsh reality is if you're worried about 1 or 2 quid a week, fees are the least of your worries.

This referendum isn't asking students to build the campus, it's asking for a contribution towards capital developments which are primarily for the benefit of students.

Stephen_Byrne

TST will be interviewing SU president Adam Moursy on Monday regarding the merits of the project. We are currently looking for somebody opposed to the vote to be interviewed around half three on Monday. If you're interested, get in contact.

stephen@thomondstudenttimes.com

canned_ulkc

Cydoniac wrote: »

My situation too, in fact I've had to take a year off because I couldn't afford the cost of living in Limerick and college expenses. You have to think of all students when raising the cost of college like this, especially for something not necessary right now in time.

My own situation was hardly easy either lads and when it came to grant cuts, mine was cut by about 60%. I still think it's a red herring.

You didn't put UL on your CAO application because of the relatively low cost of the student levy so please don't present it as a valid argument. It's simply not.

J_E

And what about the people who have to pay registration fees? As well as an increasing bump each year to the already €2000+ cost, this is also hitting a student. It's easy to say 'oh it's only 1 bottle of Coke a week' but it's not. Sure, I'll vote for it, if anything just for the future students who I'm sure will make use of it, but I'm just disappointed they have nothing else to show for the bump, i.e more competitive gym rates for students.

I can see the point being made and won't argue it any more, but hypothetically if the fee was bumped to say, €300 and the university tried saying 'ah sure that's only a pint a week' would you buy it?

Ave Sodalis

canned_ulkc wrote: »

You didn't put UL on your CAO application because of the relatively low cost of the student levy so please don't present it as a valid argument. It's simply not.

UL was my 8th choice, put in as a fill in but had to be picked after messing up my exams. It was UL or move country. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad now I went to UL but using 'you chose for this reason' etc. is what's not valid as an argument. Relatively low cost of student levy could very well have been some peoples reason for UL.

If you're worried about 1 or 2 quid a week, fees are almost the most of your worries

Still, the arguments presented for justification of the fees wouldn't cut it for me personally, although I'm still unsure as I know the benefits for future users of the arena.

Stephen_Byrne

Hey Guys,

My best attempt at writing a simple explainer of what we're voting on. Let me know if there are any improvements you'd suggest. (Unbiased ones :P)

http://www.thomondstudenttimes.com/index.php/features/232-referendumexplainer

Polar Ice

Polar Ice wrote: »

Shouldn't there be a basic website with some info. 4 pages maybe.
1. Overview
2. Student Centre
3. Pitches
4. Arena extension

Looks like there's a website: http://ulsureferendum.com/

Are the SU planning blitzkrieg for next week considering their lack of promotion for the impending vote?

thomond2006

Polar Ice wrote: »

Looks like there's a website: http://ulsureferendum.com/

Are the SU planning blitzkrieg for next week considering their lack of promotion for the impending vote?

As of today, there was a big stand set up (like the ones you'd see at the Careers Fair) just inside the main door of the KBS, explaining the project and showing the designs. You can't miss it.

Chimaera

I'm sorry, but the KBS is a long way out of the way for most students. They need a stand like that in the main canteen if it's to have any impact.

I'll note at this point too that for all the discussion we've had, there's still no information on what the plans for the existing student centre are. IMO if the University are going to take the building for their own use, then they need to be contributing a few million of their own funds to the project.

J_E

Don't understand why they can't have some sort of stand out in the main courtyard myself...

Polar Ice

thomond2006 wrote: »

just inside the main door of the KBS, explaining the project and showing the designs. You can't miss it.

I'm not in the KBS...
What about the coop students. They can all vote, but they can't go to a stand in the KBS!

Chimaera wrote: »

I'll note at this point too that for all the discussion we've had, there's still no information on

Questions: (I'm not looking for hypothetical answers to Qs1-5)
1. What happens to the existing ULSU facilities when the union moves to the new student centre if the referendum is passed? (This question has been asked twice by Chimaera already)
2. The 3 items included in the referendum have been combined to make it easier to pass. Fair enough (I don't personally have an issue with it - it's just interesting to note). Construction of 3 developments is separate. When are each of the 3 developments due to be completed (what year)?
3. Is the 'Dynamic music hub' to be a part of the student centre (i.e. ULSU run) or, will the University have direct use of it? How is its usage governed?
4. There is commercial space planned on the ground floor of the student centre. Where would rental incomes from those premise go?
5. The areas highlighted as 'subject to funding' in the student centre plans. What determines if those are built?
6. Not a direct concern to students, but where does the CSIS department move to if the referendum is passed?
7. The €20 operation levy once introduced has an infinite time frame targeted at or above the rate of inflation?
8. This raffle of an iPod to those who vote. How do they check who has voted? Should they be able to check who voted? Does this raise privacy concerns?

Ginge Young

Before people go crazy, there are also boards detailing the projects just inside the ski slopes and in the foundation building, most likely other locations too.

Edit: Out of complete curiousity, have any of you actually directly contacted those involved in the SU/Referendum to try and get answers? The facebook page? An e-mail? Dropped into them to ask?

My opinion on these:

1: I don't know the full answer, there would be a few years to decide upon it i imagine. I don't feel like it is something that needs to be determined immediately.
2: Don't know the exact years, I do know Maguires and the Arena would pretty much be able to go ahead with construction pretty soon after.
3: No idea.
4: I would imagine straight into the students union account.
5: Can't see where those are.
6: Yup I believe so.
7: Unsure
8: Anyone wishing to will be brought to a separate page to enter after they have voted. They can choose not to if they want.

I would also just like to say, that until this is passed, there be will be no memorandum of understanding going through the details of the building. I do know that if it is passed, students will be involved in the development of this memorandum.

J_E

If the university are going to be making some sort of use of this building themselves they should be pushing some sort of promotion rather than leaving it to the SU. I am also confused at their use of a normal Friend page rather than a Like page - surely that makes the whole thing more awkward to spread out quickly? 4 days to go and not a solid campaign with a large backing - really disappointed to be honest.

Ginge Young

The University are the ones who created the big boards with the details of the projects.

The campaign is most likely going to kick start properly tomorrow. I am uncertain about the friend page myself, but it is getting information out there which doesn't harm the situation at all.

Polar Ice

Ginge Young wrote: »

Edit: Out of complete curiousity, have any of you actually directly contacted those involved in the SU/Referendum to try and get answers? The facebook page? An e-mail? Dropped into them to ask

Why should students have to chase the SU for info about the referendum?

Shouldn't the SU be the one openly providing info so their members (students) can make an informed decision?

Why don't the SU engage constructively with people here?

Ginge Young wrote: »

Before people go crazy, there are also boards detailing the projects just inside the ski slopes and in the foundation building, most likely other locations too.

What about coop students. Where do they get their information from?

Ginge Young

I'm in no way suggesting students should have to chase.

What I am saying is a lot of your questions, some of the answers will most likely not be known until it is passed and a memorandum of understanding is set up, in particular questions 3 and 4 and most likely 1.

Time and time again the SU getting involved here has ended in tears, so all I am saying is if you want to know this then potentially try other means of getting the answers than using boards.ie. I'm sure an e-mail to the President wouldn't hurt.

As for Co-Op students, I have no doubt that an e-mail is going to be sent to all students and that it will include links to all the information required to make an informed vote.

Polar Ice

Ginge Young wrote: »

I'm in no way suggesting students should have to chase.
...
all I am saying is if you want to know this then potentially try other means of getting the answers than using boards.ie. I'm sure an e-mail to the President wouldn't hurt.

So you're not suggesting students should have to chase the SU, but at the same time you're suggesting chasing the SU?

Ginge Young wrote: »

What I am saying is a lot of your questions, some of the answers will most likely not be known until it is passed and a memorandum of understanding is set up, in particular questions 3 and 4 and most likely 1.

Aren't these questions important? Something that people should have answers to before they vote?

reunion

Polar Ice wrote: »

Questions: (I'm not looking for hypothetical answers to Qs1-5)
1. What happens to the existing ULSU facilities when the union moves to the new student centre if the referendum is passed? (This question has been asked twice by Chimaera already)
2. The 3 items included in the referendum have been combined to make it easier to pass. Fair enough (I don't personally have an issue with it - it's just interesting to note). Construction of 3 developments is separate. When are each of the 3 developments due to be completed (what year)?
3. Is the 'Dynamic music hub' to be a part of the student centre (i.e. ULSU run) or, will the University have direct use of it? How is its usage governed?
4. There is commercial space planned on the ground floor of the student centre. Where would rental incomes from those premise go?
5. The areas highlighted as 'subject to funding' in the student centre plans. What determines if those are built?
6. Not a direct concern to students, but where does the CSIS department move to if the referendum is passed?
7. The €20 operation levy once introduced has an infinite time frame targeted at or above the rate of inflation?
8. This raffle of an iPod to those who vote. How do they check who has voted? Should they be able to check who voted? Does this raise privacy concerns?

1. This will be resolved IF the referendum is passed. At the moment, the students would keep the building as no agreement (to my knowledge) exists for alternative arrangements.
2. Pitches - 1 year to complete. In the meantime clubs who train on Maguires will be accommodated with alternative arrangements. Work can start ASAP.
Arena Extension - unknown completion estimate - planning permission has been approved and construction can commence asap as far as I'm aware.
Student Centre - 2 years to build. Very VERY early stages, will need a full year (I'd say) of back and forth with an architect/planning permission/etc.

3. From the C&S council meeting 2 weeks ago, the entertainment hub would be run by another ULSU services company (As far as I'm aware). Clubs and societies wouldn't have to pay for use. The company would look at getting the venue rented outside of term hours/when not in use.

4. Unsure. I would be guessing, however it isn't a stretch to say it would be a similar set up to the current rental scheme in the courtyard.

5. Not sure what the subject to funding stuff is, can you link me?

6. SAA/medical centre. Whatever is reallocated to the SU, the CSIS building will occupy. Honestly, not the students problem.

7. that €20 is essentially a lesson learnt with the boathouse. If something breaks/etc, how is it fixed? who is responsible? an operation levy is for maintance of the building (cleaners will cost more, replacing things/etc).

8. There will be a link after the vote to enter the draw if you want to (as far as I'm aware). Not sure if you enter an email address or your ID number, but it doesn't depend on which way you vote.