Referendum 15th Nov

Nockz

Jester252 wrote: »

Is the new student centre needed. I can't see any reason for the size of it. I know space is a little tight in the current building but its not over flowing and its not causing any problems. I just don't see the reason for this.

It's absolutely needed. C&S can no longer book rooms in the Main Building so places to have meetings are scarce. Paul Lee currently resides in one of these meeting rooms and Liz is squashed into that office in the C&S room which, let's be honest, has all too many similarities with the cubby holes across the room.

Storage of equipment is largely kept to the presses in Room 3 but pretty much all of them are largely filled.

The new Student Center is worth it entirely for a new set of men's bathrooms.

I imagine with the 3rd party running the venue, it'll end up a lot like The Helix in DCU. I know my own society and a good few others which would so greatly benefit from a venue to have events. Not a grey room in the SU. Not a spare classroom in the Main Building. A venue.

You really have to look to the future here though. I don't want future committees of my, or any, society or club having to settle on running their activities in a subpar room when we have the chance to give them something far greater. I want students from UL and outside to want to take part in C&S because of the resources they'd have. I want to see students looking for reasons to get involved and I imagine a brand spanking new building will do that.

The Student Center has the chance to show off C&S to the level they deserve and I don't want to see that chance wasted because people didn't know about it.

Jester252

Nockz wrote: »

It's absolutely needed. C&S can no longer book rooms in the Main Building so places to have meetings are scarce. Paul Lee currently resides in one of these meeting rooms and Liz is squashed into that office in the C&S room which, let's be honest, has all too many similarities with the cubby holes across the room.

Storage of equipment is largely kept to the presses in Room 3 but pretty much all of them are largely filled.

The new Student Center is worth it entirely for a new set of men's bathrooms.

I imagine with the 3rd party running the venue, it'll end up a lot like The Helix in DCU. I know my own society and a good few others which would so greatly benefit from a venue to have events. Not a grey room in the SU. Not a spare classroom in the Main Building. A venue.

You really have to look to the future here though. I don't want future committees of my, or any, society or club having to settle on running their activities in a subpar room when we have the chance to give them something far greater. I want students from UL and outside to want to take part in C&S because of the resources they'd have. I want to see students looking for reasons to get involved and I imagine a brand spanking new building will do that.

The Student Center has the chance to show off C&S to the level they deserve and I don't want to see that chance wasted because people didn't know about it.

While I understand why its need for future expansion. I just feel the size will leave the SU looking deserted. I don't understand why office space is an issue some simple reworking could fix that. Some of the offices in the SU are just huge. Three lectures could use the bottom corner office no problem and there are lecture in the university that are using it. I'm also wondering what the venue will do to the current pubs on campus or would one of them move into the venue.
I'm sorry I just don't buy the lack of rooms in the university to use. For personal experience I can find an empty class room no problem. I know that Clubs and Socs need to book rooms and require special needs for said rooms. Is there a problem between the University and the Union/C&S?
While I would like to see the Union expand and it should be done as soon as possible. I just feel the jump planned is too big. Granted I will vote yes if they include fixing the broken lock in the men toilets in the referendum.

wnolan1992

The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards a no vote.

I realise that it would be beneficial, but I just feel it's ill-timed. I can't justify it to myself to vote for something that will, in essence, double the student levy at this time.

I don't buy the "It's only a euro a week." argument I'm sorry. That's a very simplistic view of it. You have to take into account the fact that it is highly likely that the student contribution will go up again and again over the next few years, not to mention cuts to grants, scarcity of part-time work and a whole other range of issues which are putting more and more financial pressure on students.

If it were just the Arena and pitches on the table with not as much of a jump in the levy, then I would probably vote yes based on the fact that those are, as far as I can tell, more pressing issues that should have been done ages ago.

I get that C+S need space, but why not lobby the University to allow the booking of rooms as opposed to spending €40million? I know that doesn't solve the issue because you'd be reliant on the University, but I think that would be a better solution for the short-medium term as opposed to embarking on such a costly capital project.


That said, I keep flip-flopping on this virtually every time I think about it, so who knows what way I'll feel after another week of obsessing over it. :P

ChrisOF

Jester252 wrote: »

I'm sorry I just don't buy the lack of rooms in the university to use. For personal experience I can find an empty class room no problem. I know that Clubs and Socs need to book rooms and require special needs for said rooms. Is there a problem between the University and the Union/C&S?
While I would like to see the Union expand and it should be done as soon as possible. I just feel the jump planned is too big. Granted I will vote yes if they include fixing the broken lock in the men toilets in the referendum.

There is a huge problem with booking rooms this year, C&S can not book rooms in the Main building.
The only rooms C&S have access to are in the SU, Shumann/Kemmy Buildings and Health Sciences.

Having room space that is under the Unions control that C&S can access would be of great benefit to C&S, thats before you get into the question of suitability of those rooms.
There is no flat floor venue on campus, there are lots of society's that would love to hold events on campus that can't due to lack of a suitable venue. The University its self has the same problem, they would love to be able to host conventions here, but cant due to lack of a venue.

One of the major peoblems the SU faces is lack of engagement, that problem is atributable in part to the fact that the current SU building is not a nice place to be, unless you're involved in C&S or Class reps, you have very little reason to ever go in there.
The new building will fix that, not only will it solve the space and storage issues, it will be a nice place to be. A place where you can hang out with your friends between lectures, get some work done or just chill. Having the Union situated in the centre of this will make it more approchable.

There is an argument that it is Ill timed, I can understand that, the Union has not exactly made its self popular in recent times, and asking people to pay more is never going to be easy. But the reality is that there will never be a perfect climate to do something like this, no one will ever want to pay more.
The other very important factor is that there won't be a better time to do this for the forseeable future, if its rejected now, its not something that can be picked up again in two or three years time. The outside funding simply won't be there. If we say no, then we will probably be stuck with the current SU building for another decade. Its bad enough as it is now, I would hate to see how bad it will be then, C&S is struggeling to accomadate the Clubs and Socs that already exist, the new Student Center would allow further development, sticking with what we have will mean that several new Clubs and Socs that could be started over the next decade won't get the change because the room won't be there for them.

TL-DR:
Voting no will negativly impact the student experiance in UL for many years to come. If you do vote no, I hope you see the consequences.

Jester252

I have no problem with the cost (I'll just buy one less cup of coffee a week) and I agree that a venue is needed but I don't see any reason that the union needs the CSIS building. Has C&S and the Union tried every option to solve the main building issue? Why is this an issue in the first place?. This isn't Field of Dreams so is there any reason behind the statement that more student will use it?

MajesticDonkey

ChrisOF wrote: »

If we say no, then we will probably be stuck with the current SU building for another decade. Its bad enough as it is now, I would hate to see how bad it will be then, C&S is struggeling to accomadate the Clubs and Socs that already exist, the new Student Center would allow further development, sticking with what we have will mean that several new Clubs and Socs that could be started over the next decade won't get the change because the room won't be there for them.

Then build a fcuking smaller building! God, what is the need for all these massive double-digit million euro projects the university is putting up? Can UL not do things a bit smaller while people scrape out of the mess the country is in?

I'm sure if the SU actually went and lobbied the college about getting more rooms for C&S, they could get them. There are plenty of rooms left un-used every single day (and night).

ChrisOF

Jester252 wrote: »

I have no problem with the cost (I'll just buy one less cup of coffee a week) and I agree that a venue is needed but I don't see any reason that the union needs the CSIS building. Has C&S and the Union tried every option to solve the main building issue? Why is this an issue in the first place?. This isn't Field of Dreams so is there any reason behind the statement that more student will use it?

There were several other options put forward by the Union, I don't know who's idea it was to use CSIS, but buildings and estates are fully behind it, I can't really see it as being a major problem tbh.

The Main Building issue is that the University is in debt and are under severe pressure from the HEA to get out of debt, this means that they are implementing every cost cutting measure they can. The heating system in the Main Building is akin to just burning piles of money around the place to keep it warm, so everyone has been shoved to newer and cheaper to heat buildings such as Kemmy and Health Sciences.
Liz and Paul were not happy about it, but there was no option.

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Then build a fcuking smaller building! God, what is the need for all these massive double-digit million euro projects the university is putting up? Can UL not do things a bit smaller while people scrape out of the mess the country is in?

Ya, and in ten years time when the same issues of lack of space/storage facilities come up, and there is talk of building a new building/extention, a student just like you will be saying why didn't they build a fcuking bigger building in the first place when they had the plans to?
If your going to spend money on building something, you may as well do it right the first time.

I'm sure if the SU actually went and lobbied the college about getting more rooms for C&S, they could get them. There are plenty of rooms left un-used every single day (and night).

As mentioned above, its not that there are no rooms available, its that heating them after 6 is costing the University too much money.

MajesticDonkey

ChrisOF wrote: »

Ya, and in ten years time when the same issues of lack of space/storage facilities come up, and there is talk of building a new building/extention, a student just like you will be saying why didn't they build a fcuking bigger building in the first place when they had the plans to?

I won't anyway, because I won't be here. Like I already mentioned, I don't feel I should be required to pay for something I won't use, let alone see finished. Let the students in ten years' time decide what they want to pay for.

ChrisOF wrote: »

As mentioned above, its not that there are no rooms available, its that heating them after 6 is costing the University too much money.

Fine, then increase the student levy by €20 per student and give it to the college to keep rooms open longer. Simple.

Spending €40 million to solve a relatively small problem is a bit mad, IMO. And when I say relatively small, I mean it doesn't directly affect getting or not getting your degree. Obviously if you're involved in C&S you're gonna say it's a big problem, but for the majority of students (who will be asked to pay for it) it's not. If the college keeps going there'll be more restaurants and bars than there will students.

ChrisOF

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

I won't anyway, because I won't be here. Like I already mentioned, I don't feel I should be required to pay for something I won't use, let alone see finished. Let the students in ten years' time decide what they want to pay for.

So your hoping the students in ten years time will be a little more charitable to those that come after them, than you are willing to be?

Fine, then increase the student levy by €20 per student and give it to the college to keep rooms open longer. Simple.

I would rather see a worthwhile project being built than allow the University pass on its fixed costs to the student population in return for access to facilities tbh.

Spending €40 million to solve a relatively small problem is a bit mad, IMO. And when I say relatively small, I mean it doesn't directly affect getting or not getting your degree. Obviously if you're involved in C&S you're gonna say it's a big problem, but for the majority of students (who will be asked to pay for it) it's not. If the college keeps going there'll be more restaurants and bars than there will students.

Actually the student contruibution will come to about 20 million, the other half is comming from outside investers.
There are a number of problems that will be solved by this project, its not just the Student centre you know, The pitches are an embarrasment to what is promoted as Irelands sporting campus.
The Arena extention is badly needed, the arena is at capasity and no extension is a severe blow to several clubs.
More importantly, this is not just about solving problems, its about the opportunities that will be created. How this University is viewed is important, the desireability of coming to UL makes a difference to how good the University is. You need to best facilities to attract the best people. I don't see why we should aim for less.

MajesticDonkey

ChrisOF wrote: »

So your hoping the students in ten years time will be a little more charitable to those that come after them, than you are willing to be?

Frankly, that's up to them if they want to be.

Simply put: I don't think it's the time to be undertaking a project costing this much, no matter how necessary it is. Sometimes you just gotta dig in and make do with what you have.

I do agree with your points though.

ChrisOF

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Frankly, that's up to them if they want to be.

Simply put: I don't think it's the time to be undertaking a project costing this much, no matter how necessary it is. Sometimes you just gotta dig in and make do with what you have.

I do agree with your points though.

Fine, your welcome to your opinion, I'm just glad that former UL students didn't take the same view, if they did we would not have had the current SU building, the boathouse or the Arena.

MajesticDonkey

ChrisOF wrote: »

Fine, your welcome to your opinion, I'm just glad that former UL students didn't take the same view, if they did we would not have had the current SU building, the boathouse or the Arena.

Aye, but at the time, those former students found it easier to get part-time jobs, building/developent was cheaper than now (at least in the 90s), people spent more (than they should have) in general etc etc.

Like I said:

Simply put: I don't think it's the time to be undertaking a project costing this much, no matter how necessary it is. Sometimes you just gotta dig in and make do with what you have.

If this were 5 or 6 years ago there would have been no problem in getting students to pay extra - simply because money was easier to come by. Hopefully the country will be back to some bit of normality within 5 years' time.

Nockz

We won't have the chance to do it in 5 years time.

ChrisOF

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

If this were 5 or 6 years ago there would have been no problem in getting students to pay extra - simply because money was easier to come by. Hopefully the country will be back to some bit of normality within 5 years' time.

To be honnest five or six years ago would have been the absolute worst time to get it done, it would have cost much more to do then, and we would still be paying that inflated cost lets not forget.
If its done now, it gets done at a very competitive price. And that cost benefit gets passed on to students in ten years time and twenty years time.
This project is not something that can feasibly be picked up again in 5 years time in my opinion, but even if it could it would likely end up costing quite a bit more than if its done now, all we would be doing is passing the cost onto future students, and a greater cost at that.

We really should try to take a wider view than just our own narrow time in UL.

reunion

I am on the yes side just to make that clear.

There is no need to get everyone to vote yes; being aggressive about everyone who says they will vote no could end up hurting the yes side entirely.

The main and important thing is you vote on the 15th. We need at least 1800 students to vote with 2/3rd voting yes. Making the 1800 is the first goal, the second is getting 2/3rds voting yes.

A no vote doesn't stop this dead in the water either, there would be a second referendum next semester. I would hope the people who voted no would talk to people in the SU (or anyone involved in it) about concerns they have and we could potentially come up with a solution that could work for everyone. Or maybe while people are campaigning they can record concerns people have.

These proposals won't please everyone, they can't. However, the arena didn't please everyone, but I'm glad it was built.

The main reason (from what I've heard anyway) from people saying they will vote no is that the fee is too high, especially for something they won't see. I have been thinking, is it possible to start at €72 next year (the current charge), €92 the year after, €112 year 3 and then €130 the year the new Student Centre would open (it would be mid-way during that year it would be open) and then €150 from then on? It would be an ease into it instead of a giant leap increase of €78 from next year. We would still get the money and it would only add about 2 years to the loan repayment.

MajesticDonkey

reunion wrote: »

I have been thinking, is it possible to start at €72 next year (the current charge), €92 the year after, €112 year 3 and then €130 the year the new Student Centre would open (it would be mid-way during that year it would be open) and then €150 from then on? It would be an ease into it instead of a giant leap increase of €78 from next year. We would still get the money and it would only add about 2 years to the loan repayment.

I would have no problem agreeing to that.

ChrisOF

reunion wrote: »

The main reason (from what I've heard anyway) from people saying they will vote no is that the fee is too high, especially for something they won't see. I have been thinking, is it possible to start at €72 next year (the current charge), €92 the year after, €112 year 3 and then €130 the year the new Student Centre would open (it would be mid-way during that year it would be open) and then €150 from then on? It would be an ease into it instead of a giant leap increase of €78 from next year. We would still get the money and it would only add about 2 years to the loan repayment.

Would'nt bother me, if people are happier with that then go for it.

Chimaera

If we end up needing a second referendum, I'd want to see the three projects separated out, or at the very least, the student centre separated from the Arena/Maguire's project.

Should it not pass, my feeling it'll be due to the student centre. It'd be only fair to the clubs involved to get the Arena and pitches done. The pitches were an issue 10 years ago and it's long overdue. Likewise, the demise of the climbing wall and the diving pit was known about when the Arena opened.

reunion

Chimaera wrote: »

If we end up needing a second referendum, I'd want to see the three projects separated out, or at the very least, the student centre separated from the Arena/Maguire's project.

Should it not pass, my feeling it'll be due to the student centre. It'd be only fair to the clubs involved to get the Arena and pitches done. The pitches were an issue 10 years ago and it's long overdue. Likewise, the demise of the climbing wall and the diving pit was known about when the Arena opened.

I'd feel different, I think the Student Centre would be the only thing that could pass on its own. C&S are extremely lacking in motivation for these projects when they have probably the most to gain. As a student, I would vote no to everything but the Student Centre. As an involved C&S student, I would vote yes to all three.

I'd say they would be bundled again for any additional referendum (Week 2 of Semester 2 would be my guess). If that failed, then maybe seperated out for Week 5 of Semester 2 in a last ditch hope of getting something funded. If that failed, I'd take it as a sign students don't want any of these projects.

Ginge Young

As a slight point of information, if people decided to go the the information night held by Paul Lee, with Robert Reidy, Keith Wood, Adam Moursy and Dave Maheedy they would have learnt that the student centre is more than a students union.

The entire courtyard were everything is right now, not just the Student's Union is the Student's Centre.

People are confused thinking the students centre being proposed to be built is just a new students union, it's not. Couldn't agree with Reunion statement however that there will be No voters and there is no point being aggressive about it.

Ruan DMC

Hey guys,

I am hearing a lot of talk about why there is a need for a new student centre. The new student centre that is planned is a different beast from the current student union building.

As much as I love the SU building and everything that goes on there it is not ideal to be a hub for student activity. The basic layout of the building is just like a group of offices. It is not an inviting and living space due to the design. I would guess on average about 30% of students would use the SU building on a weekly basis.

The new student centre is just that, a Student Centre! It is an inviting space that encourages students to use it. The CSIS building is ideal for this. Its three story high central void allows the atmosphere of the building to permeate through the rest of the building.

The design is based on successful Student centres in NI, UK and US. Universities examined such as Queens University Belfast, Leeds University, Birmingham University, Nottingham University, Sheffield University, Liverpool University etc. These Universities attract up to 80% of students through their doors on a weekly basis. It is the place for students to go. They dont go there because they have something specific to do, instead it is the hub of students "off time". Students go there to do C&S work, they go there to read, they go there to get food, they go there to meet friends and they just go there to relax.

So this is what the students centre is about. Its about getting the use up from 30% of students using it on a weekly basis to 80%. The layout and facilities in the new centre is key to achieve that.

The ultimate aim is to foster the sense of student community. By bringing students together it will help develop that community.

We also got to remember that this could be the last time we get a chance to secure a large philanthropic donation for such a student project.

Ruán

wnolan1992

reunion wrote: »

The main and important thing is you vote on the 15th. We need at least 1800 students to vote with 2/3rd voting yes. Making the 1800 is the first goal, the second is getting 2/3rds voting yes.

Surely it should be pretty easy to get 1800 to vote though, given that all the C+S people will be pushing it to their members? I'd be really surprised if it doesn't meet that requirement tbh.

The main reason (from what I've heard anyway) from people saying they will vote no is that the fee is too high, especially for something they won't see. I have been thinking, is it possible to start at €72 next year (the current charge), €92 the year after, €112 year 3 and then €130 the year the new Student Centre would open (it would be mid-way during that year it would be open) and then €150 from then on? It would be an ease into it instead of a giant leap increase of €78 from next year. We would still get the money and it would only add about 2 years to the loan repayment.

I like this idea.

J_E

The one thing that still bothers me is that I am only seeing a real push for promotion this week as opposed to last week or the week before. Regardless of any delays caused, there should have been an informative video, one simple website as opposed to a few scattered about, and a clear push to not only the C&S crowd but to the general student population. Even more so than any additional fees, I am just really peeved off at how badly the whole thing was orchestrated in respect to getting the message across to everyone, and the stuff they're doing now should have been in action a week before the original vote date. The same thing happened with the elections last year, hence the poor turnout for voting. The phrase I hear a lot is that the students have to come to the SU and not the other way around but this is backwards thinking.

Gael23

reunion wrote: »

The main reason (from what I've heard anyway) from people saying they will vote no is that the fee is too high, especially for something they won't see. I have been thinking, is it possible to start at €72 next year (the current charge), €92 the year after, €112 year 3 and then €130 the year the new Student Centre would open (it would be mid-way during that year it would be open) and then €150 from then on? It would be an ease into it instead of a giant leap increase of €78 from next year. We would still get the money and it would only add about 2 years to the loan repayment.

I would be alot more In Favour if something like this was to happen. I'm one of the students who won't see it but that's not the only reason for going towards the no side.

wnolan1992

Debate on the referendum on ULFM atm.

www.ulfm.ie

J_E

wnolan1992 wrote: »

Debate on the referendum on ULFM atm.

www.ulfm.ie

This is pretty good, who is opposing it? They're making great points.

wnolan1992

Cydoniac wrote: »

This is pretty good, who is opposing it? They're making great points.

No idea, just randomer who was drafted in last night I believe. :P

Both sides making good arguments in fairness.

Jester252

wnolan1992 wrote: »

No idea, just randomer who was drafted in last night I believe. :P

Both sides making good arguments in fairness.

**** missed it would the audio be going up at all?

J_E

Jester252 wrote: »

**** missed it would the audio be going up at all?

I hope so because it was the first comprehensive and fair argument for both yes and no that I heard, especially Richard Daly who held up his own quite well.

Ginge Young

With regard some of the points Richard raised.

First of all, he is not questioning us having a referendum that affects the student populous to come who don't have a voice as it stands, he is questioning the entire system of a referendum. Even the one that just passed over the weekend, constitutional changes were approved for people who as of yet have no voice and no vote.

It is a bit difficult to imagine us making a financial decision for the students of the future, all of them will however see these projects and have the opportunity to use them, there is no doubt in that. Yes there are those who will not participate in Clubs & Socs and may never visit the student centre (I doubt that), but that is why we operate in a democracy. It's not even majority rules it is 66% must say yes.

The argument that those who are not involved in the SU etc will not campaign no, that is their own prerogative not to engage.

If a new levy is introduced it will be quite clear to students before they come to UL that they will need to pay this. There is nothing forcing them to attend UL. If the only course they want is here, well then if the only course was in a college that required a massive amount in tuition of any sort they would need to pay that.

Is it fair that these charges could be introduced to everyone? I believe that for the general populous and the development of the student experience and C&S it is. We are a body, a group over all in this University.

If the majority believe not, the majority believe not and I can accept that. That is the important thing, it is a democracy.

I don't like the idea that people are saying this is forced, as he was, as though people's arms are being twisted. They are not, they have a vote.

For those who are not here, they will have the choice of whether or not they want to come here. Whether or not they will want to pay the levy. Whether or not they want to avail of the facilities (hopefully more, amazing ones to come) and student experience that are put on offer both by the University and the Students' Union.

The idea of actually collecting the money ourselves, is great in theory, but raising money for these kinds of projects would take years, which is why it is put to the STUDENTS of the University to decide IF they want to pay it collectively to share the burden.