Referendum 15th Nov

Chimaera

wnolan1992 wrote: »

I don't think Chimaera was saying there weren't benefits to the wider student body, just that no one was really highlighting these benefits to a wider audience. (Could completely have misinterpreted, but that was the impression I got.)

The bulk of the yes campaign is Clubs and Socs saying why this will be a huge benefit to Clubs and Socs. So I tend to believe that the majority of people who vote yes on Thursday will be C+S people voting for C+S, whereas those who currently are not part of C+S probably won't vote. (but I could be proven wrong)

That's pretty much it.

Ginge Young

But the important thing is those who are not C&S outnumber those who are and they all have a vote. It effects all students and all students have a vote, whether they choose to exercise that vote or not is their choice.

Stephen_Byrne

Hi Everyone,

Thomond Student Times interviewed Adam Moursy last week about the referendum. Credit to Ben Fox for the camera work and editing, as well as Cillian McCarthy, Ali Griffiths, Paul O Byrne and Stephen Savage.

http://www.thomondstudenttimes.com/index.php/videos/237-voteordie

Chimaera

Another view on the referendum here: http://iheartul.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/week-10-its-all-about-polls/

freyners

I've been paying a levy for the boathouse for all my four years in college, I have not got to use this facility once ( a blizzards concert in first year on the lawn outside doesn't count imo ). but i know how much that facility has benefited a lot of students year in year out. at the end of the day my vote is going to rest on whether this will benefit future students.

i believe it will, therefore im voting yes

canned_ulkc

Freyners, it's great to see that despite not having made use of the boathouse you see the benefits of it.

I would like to make the point though that every student pays for that facility and every student should feel that they should be able to use it.

If anyone feels they want to make use of the boathouse IMO there should be no (or at least only practical) barriers to that really. Of course, the clubs who have gear down there would aim to protect it so it's not like it could be opened up for a free for all but I know that the constituent clubs have never been so arrogant to presume that others have no right to make use of the facilities.

Gael23

canned_ulkc wrote: »

I would like to make the point though that every student pays for that facility and every student should feel that they should be able to use it.

.

What about students who will have graduated by 2015 and wont be able to benefit from it?

wnolan1992

My issue from the start was never the fact that I'd probably never see the facilities, or that the projects aren't needed, because they are needed (for the most part) and students before us gave so that we'd have the current SC and Boathouse.

My problem with it is that I don't feel comfortable committing other students to a doubled levy for 20 years at this time. Given the uncertainty surrounding the economy and the fact that the registration fee is likely to jump again this year and next year, I think this just adds to the burden.

If it passes, it passes and I'll be happy that UL will get the facilities. But I don't feel right voting for it tbh.

Just my opinion, for whatever it's worth.

Ginge Young

Hey Ryan. Just in terms of the facilities, I believe Maguires and the Arena will be done by 2014, so some students will see those and have the chance to use them, the Student Centre hopefully 2015.

I suppose if you want to argue that it comes down to this:

The students of the past made a decision similar to this for things they would never really see or use. The majority of us have all used the current facilities in some way, shape or form, remember this is the entire student center not just the Union. The question is do you want make a similar decision to help the students of the future? If you don't fair enough. This goes beyond the thinking of "sure I'll never see and use it", but I can understand in this day and age how important that can be to people.

Are you happy with 72 euro you've paid to this point in terms of what you got for it?

canned_ulkc

Ryan, that's an argument that was applied to both the original student centre and to the boathouse as well. And it's not unfair to bring up.

First, this project is different from previous ones in that for this one there are current students who will see progress while they are still here. Not just progress but completed elements of the overall project.
The first year group that will (if it's passed) pay the new levy is the class of 2017 who will have these facilities for about 1.5 years based on the intended (realistic) timeline.

The boathouse referendum was in 2003 and it took until late 2006 to break ground. By the time it was completed people had already been paying the levy for several years.

For this project, students will see a return while they are still here - admittedly not all of them but certainly to a much greater extent than previous projects.

There are definitely a few reasons to vote No and the same for a Yes vote. There is weight on both sides though and that weight is going to be different for different people. Hopefully people will feel informed enough to vote.

canned_ulkc

wnolan1992 wrote: »

My problem with it is that I don't feel comfortable committing other students to a doubled levy for 20 years at this time. Given the uncertainty surrounding the economy and the fact that the registration fee is likely to jump again this year and next year, I think this just adds to the burden.

I see that, but then there is a flip side to that argument too. I think people should also ask themselves if they are comfortable denying future students these facilities which you've agreed are needed?

I'm not trying to attack the point of view - I totally get it and respect that, but I do think these questions are 2 sides of the same coin.

wnolan1992

canned_ulkc wrote: »

I'm not trying to attack the point of view - I totally get it and respect that, but I do think these questions are 2 sides of the same coin.

I agree with you.

And I'm still painfully divided on this if I'm honest.

Every time I think I've made my mind up I flip to the opposite view.

Polar Ice

wnolan1992 wrote: »

My problem with it is that I don't feel comfortable committing other students to a doubled levy for 20 years at this time. Given the uncertainty surrounding the economy

Over a 20 year time horizon it's impossible to forecast what sort of position future students will be in. If you look back 20 years to around the time when most current undergraduates were born in the early 90's, pre celtic tiger, one wouldn't have anticipated the huge growth the Irish economy experienced and it's post 2007 downfall. However, in order to cover the loan repayments, such a time frame is required.

Personally I think that freshers in X years time would prefer the facilities.

Remember, some of these people who could attend UL within the next 20 years aren't even born yet. They're going to have bigger things in their lives than the thought of this referendum. I wouldn't want to over think the implications of this referendum on someone who isn't born yet...

Jamie Starr

I'm not actually registered to vote in "real life" and I won't be in Limerick in the morning, but I think this is a tremendously important thing that really deserves peoples' attention.

I'll be voting no to an increase in the student levy, but I think a new student centre is a great idea! Any time I've been in the SU I've always been put off by how full it seems, how it looks a bit like a glorified youth centre- hell, I won't even be in UL next year to contribute to it, go nuts guys!

But here's what it comes down to for me: it's 130 clams. I think everyone who wasn't born with diamond-incrusted silver caviar in their mouth knows how much money that at this moment in time. There's a lot of grant dependent students out there who, because of payment back-logs, are hanging in college by a thread- that's not to mention that the grant itself is potentially up for grabs in the budget, as is the student contribution.

For me, it's a good cause at a bad time. Hopefully in a few years everyone and everywhere's financial situation will be in a better way than it is now, and projects like these (along with the mandatory dinosaur-jetpack cross-breeding experimentation we can expect in 2033) will be as viable as they are beneficial to the student community.

In the current climate though, I think that €130 is better off going towards keeping third level education in some peoples' reach. I don't think I have an exaggerated view of how difficult things are (though I wish I did), and with that in my mind, I can't approve this levy.

Nockz

Agnostic Mantis wrote: »

I'm not actually registered to vote in "real life" and I won't be in Limerick in the morning, but I think this is a tremendously important thing that really deserves peoples' attention.

I'll be voting no to an increase in the student levy, but I think a new student centre is a great idea! Any time I've been in the SU I've always been put off by how full it seems, how it looks a bit like a glorified youth centre- hell, I won't even be in UL next year to contribute to it, go nuts guys!

But here's what it comes down to for me: it's 130 clams. I think everyone who wasn't born with diamond-incrusted silver caviar in their mouth knows how much money that at this moment in time. There's a lot of grant dependent students out there who, because of payment back-logs, are hanging in college by a thread- that's not to mention that the grant itself is potentially up for grabs in the budget, as is the student contribution.

For me, it's a good cause at a bad time. Hopefully in a few years everyone and everywhere's financial situation will be in a better way than it is now, and projects like these (along with the mandatory dinosaur-jetpack cross-breeding experimentation we can expect in 2033) will be as viable as they are beneficial to the student community.

In the current climate though, I think that €130 is better off going towards keeping third level education in some peoples' reach. I don't think I have an exaggerated view of how difficult things are (though I wish I did), and with that in my mind, I can't approve this levy.

That's also hoping that the SU can find someone to build it. The funding we have available now simply won't be available in a year's time. Unless they find another source.

MajesticDonkey

Nockz wrote: »

That's also hoping that the SU can find someone to build it. The funding we have available now simply won't be available in a year's time. Unless they find another source.

To be honest, I don't think that matters in the slightest. Sometimes you just can't have everything right away - whenever the funding is there it can be built.

Ginge Young

Sorry but I believe the fact that there is 20 Million euro on the table matters of course. It's all well and good to say you can't have everything at once, and there will be more funding, but given that Chuck Feeney wants his money gone by next year that is the Universities best donator out of the picture.

These projects have been years in the planning and now I feel is the time to go for them because it is as cheap as they will ever be.

That being said the most important thing is that people vote today, I would appreciate yes votes but just make sure you vote. That goes for anyone on here.

creepellai

Ginge Young wrote: »

Sorry but I believe the fact that there is 20 Million euro on the table matters of course. It's all well and good to say you can't have everything at once, and there will be more funding, but given that Chuck Feeney wants his money gone by next year that is the Universities best donator out of the picture.

I think thats the most important part of this referendum that people need to realise. Putting it off for "another time" will cost every student a hell of a lot more in the long run. VOTE YES!

sceptre

Reminder: vote is today. You can vote from anywhere by going to https://vote.ulsu.ie/ and logging in with your student ID and password. There are also specific on-campus locations to vote in the red raisins, the UL Arena and the SU Photocopying room - or from any campus computer, obviously. Voting remains open till 8pm. Be informed and cast your vote.

creepellai

Agnostic Mantis wrote: »

But here's what it comes down to for me: it's 130 clams. I think everyone who wasn't born with diamond-incrusted silver caviar in their mouth knows how much money that at this moment in time.

It's not €130 extra though. We are already paying €72 so it's €58 extra as apposed to €130.

wnolan1992

I get the argument that it's a cheap time to do it, as you're likely to get very competitive rates for labour and such.

BUT, the other side of that coin is that there has (at least not in our lifetimes) a more difficult time for individuals to pay for it. It's fine saying its only 58 euro extra, but the fact that it is €130 lump sum at the start of the year, on top of whatever increases to the registration fee, cuts to grants, increases in taxes on goods, etc, has to be taken into account as well.

Sure, maybe it's a bit selfish to only consider the students in the Uni over the next four or five years (because likely after that things will have improved economically), but when there're people dropping out of college because of not being able to afford it it as it is, then I'm leaning towards the belief that we need to be selfish in the short term.

Delta Kilo

wnolan1992 wrote: »

I get the argument that it's a cheap time to do it, as you're likely to get very competitive rates for labour and such.

BUT, the other side of that coin is that there has (at least not in our lifetimes) a more difficult time for individuals to pay for it. It's fine saying its only 58 euro extra, but the fact that it is €130 lump sum at the start of the year, on top of whatever increases to the registration fee, cuts to grants, increases in taxes on goods, etc, has to be taken into account as well.

Sure, maybe it's a bit selfish to only consider the students in the Uni over the next four or five years (because likely after that things will have improved economically), but when there're people dropping out of college because of not being able to afford it it as it is, then I'm leaning towards the belief that we need to be selfish in the short term.

The way I see it, future UL students will get amazing new facilities, worth €37m, that will dramatically increase the student experience by paying a Levy that is in line and still less than many Irish 3rd level institutions of a similar calibre. Id almost say anyone who is on the no side is narrow minded and so "idelogical" that if society were to follow such beliefs we would all still be learning how to grow potatoes in hedge schools. Vote yes and be innovative like those who have gone before us. UL - 40 years of innovation, long may it continue...

creepellai

Exactly. As far as I know, didn't the Stables Club, the current SU building and the boathouse come from previous students levys. They may not have been around to reap the benefits but current students are. It is current students time to develop the facilities further for future students. That is the only way the university can develop. "Sporting Campus of Ireland" or whatever the title is... needs to start living up to it.

Ruan DMC

So who is calling the results!!!

I think we need a bookies here for this!

Anyone up for making an estimate??

Turnout - ??%
Yes - ??%
No - ??%

thomond2006

I'd say turnout will be fairly high given when you login to a UL computer it redirects to a voting page.

highlydebased

Apparently 600 voted so far so quota will be reached I'd say...

creepellai

Is there a mimumum amount of votes needed? Anyone know what this is?

Delta Kilo

Just over 1800,not sure of exact figure.

wnolan1992

creepellai wrote: »

Is there a mimumum amount of votes needed? Anyone know what this is?

Minimum of 1800, and 2/3's of that would have to vote yes for it to be passed.


Talking to a few people this morning, I think it'll be close. A good few people I talked to were voting No just because of the cost.

If it's true that campus computers re-direct to a voting page, then that could potentially boost No voters, with people just logging in, seeing that the motion would increase the levy and voting No without doing any further research.

MajesticDonkey

wnolan1992 wrote: »

If it's true that campus computers re-direct to a voting page, then that could potentially boost No voters, with people just logging in, seeing that the motion would increase the levy and voting No without doing any further research.

Which, I must say, is a fantastic idea!

In all seriousness though, the majority of people I've talked to this morning are voting no, simply because the fee will be raised.

Polar Ice

Ruan DMC wrote: »

So who is calling the results!!!

I think we need a bookies here for this!

Anyone up for making an estimate??

Turnout - ??%
Yes - ??%
No - ??%

Polls published from ulsureferendum.com and iheartul.wordpress.com were both indicating that the yes vote would be in the low 60% range. (with a huge margin for error)

Turnout has exceeded 1800 already

Ginge Young

Delighted enough people have voted to make the vote valid, still 6 hours of campaigning to go too.

creepellai

It's a pity that people will vote no just by seeing that the levy will raise without reading into it. A lot of people I've talked to don't know why it's going up and when I tell tell them why, they change they're mind. So I just hope there's been enough YES campaigning done...

canned_ulkc

Interestingly someone here just made a very valid point. I hope this isn't seen as scaremongering, it's not intended to be.

More than anything I'd like to hear if anyone could say this is possible or impossible....

Some in the No camp have said that the €72 will end if a No vote is successful. The discussion just now has been based on whether it definitely will. This is based around the fact that UL is the entity that gets the €72 in order to pay for the current mortgage.

There are many colleges which have student levies where it's impossible to see where the money goes (I'm aware that some people may not see where it goes here despite walking through the courtyard every day). Is there a mechanism through which this current levy can be stopped? Could UL continue to take this money in?

Like I said, please don't see this as scaremongering - I'd like to hear both sides of that particular debate.....

Chimaera

Interestingly someone here just made a very valid point. I hope this isn't seen as scaremongering, it's not intended to be.

More than anything I'd like to hear if anyone could say this is possible or impossible....

Some in the No camp have said that the €72 will end if a No vote is successful. The discussion just now has been based on whether it definitely will. This is based around the fact that UL is the entity that gets the €72 in order to pay for the current mortgage.

There are many colleges which have student levies where it's impossible to see where the money goes (I'm aware that some people may not see where it goes here despite walking through the courtyard every day). Is there a mechanism through which this current levy can be stopped? Could UL continue to take this money in?

Like I said, please don't see this as scaremongering - I'd like to hear both sides of that particular debate.....

It's a curious question. Under the terms of the boathouse referendum, I believe the SU is due to stop collecting that levy soon as the mortgage is now paid on that building.

The University is collecting the levy on behalf of the SU in much the same way it collects the capitation fee on the SU's behalf. It's just simpler for students to be able to pay everything in one go at the fees office.

So I think it's a question of whether the Uni would have the balls to keep charging the levy when the SU no longer wishes to collect it.

I'm going to throw in another point here too: should the union now be demanding that the university allow fees to be paid in installments? The biggest argument against the referendum has been the increase, which is going to be added to a (more than likely) increased registration fee after next months' budget.

It would be fairer to allow the total fees to be paid in 2 or 3 installments to make life easier on students.

Nockz

Shame that next to nothing is known about what would happen CSIS.

bazkennedy

Nockz wrote: »

Shame that next to nothing is known about what would happen CSIS.

have you asked buildings or csis about this?

canned_ulkc

CSIS will be rehoused somewhere - it's really another one of those things that nobody can answer until there is a decision on the referendum.

creepellai

Chimaera wrote: »

So I think it's a question of whether the Uni would have the balls to keep charging the levy when the SU no longer wishes to collect it.

Surely there'd be uproar if this happened. I'm sure the SU could find something to spend the money on if the university continue to collect it (that is if there is a no vote).

canned_ulkc

I would hope that there would be uproar if that ends up being the case....

creepellai

Let's just really hope theres a Yes vote!

wnolan1992

Nockz wrote: »

Shame that next to nothing is known about what would happen CSIS.

Heard a rumour that CSIS could be moved to the ERB, and the Engineering guys would move to Tierney.

But that's just wild speculation.


I was speaking to Adam on ULFM in the last hour, and he said that almost 2500 people had voted at that stage, which is brilliant.

Really fascinated to see the outcome of this, because there was a definite swell of No voters yesterday and today just from talking to people and my Facebook feed.

bazkennedy

broke 3500 a few minutes ago apparently which is a new SU record

Gael23

If this gets voted down and the current levy stays in place, there will be uproar. I dont know if there is any provision in place to ensure that can't happen?

wnolan1992

bazkennedy wrote: »

broke 3500 a few minutes ago apparently which is a new SU record

That's fantastic, you'd never know... we might hit the 4000 mark and have a higher turnout that than the Children's Referendum. :pac:


Surely people just wouldn't pay the €72? What justification could the college possibly give for demanding a levy that's expired?

canned_ulkc

Damn - just did something and wiped my post

I heard a similar rumour too...

highlydebased

Most of Tierney is in use, is it not?

Knowing UL they'll probably build a new CSIS!

canned_ulkc

Well they've a planning application in for a building worth €50m that's going to be connected to the MSSI so there's still money around.....

supackofidiots

voted no.

that student centre idea is crazy and ridiculous, and college is expensive enough as it is without adding more cost onto vulnerable families. bear in mind lots of other fees will be increasing as well over the next few years.

can't see 66% of people voting in favour of it tbh.

take out the student centre, set a new levy of 50 quid and fix maguires and arena. whoever came up with the student centre idea must have been born with a silver spoon hanging out of their arsehole.

wnolan1992

Just got messaged on FB being asked how to vote. What's interesting is that guy has never shown any interest in anything else the SU has ever done...

The world and their mothers are voting it seems. :pac: