Choose paying back Mortgage or Choose Life?

Stheno

tipptopper wrote: »

In the name a jaysus, what's this?

Never seen trainspotting then?

UCDVet

Pottler wrote: »

And do not register anywhere on earth using your own name or any of your details from Ireland. Because if you do, the letters will start coming to your new address and the court actions will start in your new homeland. I know this as a family member works for a Bank and they will go to the ends of the earth after you! How fecked up is that?? The usual way is that you emigrate, apply for a social security number and bang, they have you. The whole "just go live somwhere else" thing is a myth, sadly.:(

The idea isn't that the Irish bank couldn't follow you; it's that other countries have different legal systems regarding debt. It doesn't matter if I owe Bank of Ireland 500k euro - what matters is what Bank of Ireland can legally do to me, to get that money bank.

This is a US website and the laws in the US can vary from state-to-state; regardless there are at least some cases where declaring bankruptcy in the US will wipe out forgein debt, in the eyes of the US government.
http://www.lawqa.com/qa/does-bankruptcy-erase-foreign-debts

Again - if you live in the US and the US legal system says you don't owe money to some Irish bank - there is little the Irish bank can do to extract those funds from you. You could have millions in a US bank account and they couldn't touch it, at least in theory.

Obviously, you'd want to research this and select the best country/state/providence/whatever for your purposes.

rugbyman

Op,

re all the whinging moaners who inhabitthis thread
funkhouser puts it well

"Creeps on internet message boards shouldn't. But they mostly do."

Op , i suggest you
1 wait for the new legislation re personal insovency
2 continue to prepare to LIVE, tot up your debt,present values(largely irrelevant
if you can pay or even half pay) amount of neg equity, and somehow forecast how much you will have paid in by end of say ten years.
(by the way when I say you havepaid in that is partly your renters paying in for you and in fact buying you the property)
3 consider which mortage co you are with, e.g. First nationwide , may not exist in a while
4 if you do decide to hand back the keys, bear in mind that you will be saving the mortage co a lot of time ,money and hassle
5 consider also. that while you say you are talking with the bank, are you in arrears, if not you are streets ahead of thousands
6 if you hand back, and go and live in N.I, while keeping your job, the bank can get an order against your wages, but the Judge is likely to be sympathetic to you. it wont be a lot.

this is a bit of a ramble, am tired, perhaps you might care to print your take home pay, value of houses, then and now, rents coming in and those of us who would like to help might be able to do so.

Regards Rugbyman

p.s. never mind those creeps

MadsL

UCDVet wrote: »

The idea isn't that the Irish bank couldn't follow you; it's that other countries have different legal systems regarding debt. It doesn't matter if I owe Bank of Ireland 500k euro - what matters is what Bank of Ireland can legally do to me, to get that money bank.

This is a US website and the laws in the US can vary from state-to-state; regardless there are at least some cases where declaring bankruptcy in the US will wipe out forgein debt, in the eyes of the US government.
http://www.lawqa.com/qa/does-bankruptcy-erase-foreign-debts

Again - if you live in the US and the US legal system says you don't owe money to some Irish bank - there is little the Irish bank can do to extract those funds from you. You could have millions in a US bank account and they couldn't touch it, at least in theory.

Obviously, you'd want to research this and select the best country/state/providence/whatever for your purposes.

Wow the Irish are good at screwing the Irish. Let's give the OP advice to really effectively saddle everyone else with the debt.

(UCDVet - I know you are not Irish)

OU812

I think that's one of the most sensible things I've ever read on boards regarding this situation. Well said.

funkhouser wrote: »

In any sane and functioning society debt like this, which has no chance of being repaid and should never have been lent in the first place, would be written down and the house sold or used by the bank for maximum return.

People who say "tough but you should remain in debt slavery and have no life ever again, you borrowed it so pay it back" (yawn) are extremely ignorant.

Incurring debt is a two way arrangement and a bank's profit is partially a return on the risk they have taken in lending the money. If I lend a car salesman on 45k a year 500,000 euro to build a house and sell it for profit, going against all previous banking norms, I've taken on a lot more risk than I should have. After it goes belly up; property market or car market crashes or he becomes terrible at selling cars and ends up in a job on 30k a year I wouldn't expect anybody to tell me: "tell him it's all HIS fault, he should live in one room, rent out all the other rooms and should give all his money to the bank for the rest of his working life". The law shouldn't. Society shouldn't. Creeps on internet message boards shouldn't. But they mostly do.

Both parties should take a hit. The more risk a bank takes the bigger hit it should take. Yes, we now own the banks and there are loads of extremely greedy people who won't now pay mortgages just 'cos but a general principle "when the borrower is clearly in great difficulty and the lending was reckless the bank should shoulder a lot of the burden, morally and financially" should really start being recognised by everyone. We'll still be in this situation as a country in 20 years if we don't.

People with impossible debt burdens are not criminals of a lower caste and should not be forced into life long debt slavery.

Nulty

humanji wrote: »

Are you averse to faking your own death?

Great suggestion from the mod of Conspiracy Theories

steve9859

MadsL wrote: »

Wow the Irish are good at screwing the Irish. Let's give the OP advice to really effectively saddle everyone else with the debt.

(UCDVet - I know you are not Irish)

As much as I'd like too see everyone stand behind their obligations, you've also got too look after number one. Do you think the Irish state will reward the OP for being a hero?

If I were the OP, I'd certainly be exploring my options on the other side of the world

UCDVet

MadsL wrote: »

Wow the Irish are good at screwing the Irish. Let's give the OP advice to really effectively saddle everyone else with the debt.

(UCDVet - I know you are not Irish)

Even if I were Irish - it wouldn't change my opinion.

Lawmakers and elected officials should be fair, impartial and act in the best interest of the country/the public.

Individuals should act in their own best interest, in accordance with the law.

When it's time to pay income taxes - the 'system' should be setup in a fair way. As an individual who has to pay taxes - I can't expect someone not to claim a tax credit the system says they are entitled to.

If a person has the option/ability to live in multiple countries - they'd be a fool not to select the one that they feel is in their best interest. That means weighing the pro's and con's of the legal system/debt system and everything else.

Other countries have bankruptcy laws to protect individuals from exactly the situation the OP is faced with. The disadvantage to having these systems is (in theory) tighter conditions for getting loans and less favorable rates; because the lenders are assuming greater risk. In practice, I rarely see that, to be perfectly honest.

downpatrick

Choose life alright. Lots of people saying can't hand in the keys etc. Course you can. You can just go bankrupt either here, or if you want to wait less time for it to be expunged, just go live in the UK for a year and then declare bankruptcy over there. 3-4 years down the road it's like it never happened. Same as Ivan Yates. Not so bad, you made a mistake, doesn't mean you'll be punished for the rest of your life.

The sooner you do it though, the sooner you can start again. Best to face up to it and accept the loss.

Good luck with it

Pottler

I'd be gone, simple as. I'd register as Mr Potler in some far flung place and start over. Mistakes often happen on official forms, I'd be making one of those mistakes. Would I stay and pay? No, I honestly wouldn't, life is too short and when your dead you'll not hear the whinging..

downpatrick

Pottler wrote: »

I'd be gone, simple as. I'd register as Mr Potler in some far flung place and start over. Mistakes often happen on official forms, I'd be making one of those mistakes. Would I stay and pay? No, I honestly wouldn't, life is too short and when your dead you'll not hear the whinging..

But he doesn't even need to change identity, just live in england for a while and declare bankruptcy. Easy.

As long as his savings are nowhere near the 350K negative equity, its a no brainer

Pottler

downpatrick wrote: »

But he doesn't even need to change identity, just live in england for a while and declare bankruptcy. Easy.

As long as his savings are nowhere near the 350K negative equity, its a no brainer

So there's an answer - UK and wait, declare bankruptcy and start over. If it's good enough for Fleming et al, surely it's good enough for the smaller man?

Cee-Jay-Cee

davet82 wrote: »

i know someone in a similar situtation, they gutted the house sold everything copper piping the lot, stuck the keys in the letter box and got on a plane never to return.

i know they're happy now earning a good living else where in the world but will never be able to come back to Ireland.

Of course they can come back to ireland, its just that if they do return they will have no credit rating and will never get a mortgage or be able to work legitimately...so its not all that bad as there are feck all jobs anyway. Your friend is one of the lucky ones, they managed to get out and are now happy elsewhere.

Scanlas The 2nd

OP sell one of the houses and put it all on red. 50/50 chance of doubling your money and clearing your debts. If you lose just don't pay back the mortgage.

Or just sell the house and use the cash to pay off as much as you can of the mortgage.

Celly Smunt

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

OP sell one of the houses and put it all on red. 50/50 chance of doubling your money and clearing your debts. If you lose just don't pay back the mortgage.

Or just sell the house and use the cash to pay off as much as you can of the mortgage.

Pfft all on black,everything always all on black.

Bullseye1

Bravo, I agree. Unfortunately because Cowan and Lenihan took the decision to nationalise the banks in this country large sections of the tax paying population are adverse to any debt forgiveness as it will "cost us, and we were not stupid enough to buy and weren't we very clever just renting". Yet anyone running their own business will tell you when you have a population on life support with less than €100 disposable income at the end of each month your chances of staying in business is alot tougher and as some are finding out not possible.

I have no doubt in the coming years we will see the biggest right down of debt in history.

funkhouser wrote: »

In any sane and functioning society debt like this, which has no chance of being repaid and should never have been lent in the first place, would be written down and the house sold or used by the bank for maximum return.

People who say "tough but you should remain in debt slavery and have no life ever again, you borrowed it so pay it back" (yawn) are extremely ignorant.

Incurring debt is a two way arrangement and a bank's profit is partially a return on the risk they have taken in lending the money. If I lend a car salesman on 45k a year 500,000 euro to build a house and sell it for profit, going against all previous banking norms, I've taken on a lot more risk than I should have. After it goes belly up; property market or car market crashes or he becomes terrible at selling cars and ends up in a job on 30k a year I wouldn't expect anybody to tell me: "tell him it's all HIS fault, he should live in one room, rent out all the other rooms and should give all his money to the bank for the rest of his working life". The law shouldn't. Society shouldn't. Creeps on internet message boards shouldn't. But they mostly do.

Both parties should take a hit. The more risk a bank takes the bigger hit it should take. Yes, we now own the banks and there are loads of extremely greedy people who won't now pay mortgages just 'cos but a general principle "when the borrower is clearly in great difficulty and the lending was reckless the bank should shoulder a lot of the burden, morally and financially" should really start being recognised by everyone. We'll still be in this situation as a country in 20 years if we don't.

People with impossible debt burdens are not criminals of a lower caste and should not be forced into life long debt slavery.

woodoo

What some here would want you to do is rent out both houses and live in a ditch. Work and use all available money (bar beans and bread) to pay off your sinful debts. Do that for the rest of your miserable days.. Why? Because you made a financial mistake.. in the eyes of the sanctimonious carries a punishment lasting longer than a murder or pedophilia conviction.

What i recommend you do is bide your time and then wash your hands of the debt by declaring yourself bankrupt.

mdebets

There is a way you could do it, but it takes some planning and a little while.

First you create a second identity (with the whole lot, fake birth certificate, passport, etc.) of an Irishman being born and living somewhere very remote (South America or Africa would be good, but preferable in a country with no Irish embassy). Then you write a will, giving everything to your new persona when you die, and take out a life insurance for accidental death (make sure that the sum covers your two houses an more, for your expenses) and make your new persona the beneficiary. Get a very distinctive ring or amulet, made from a metal of a very high melting point.

Get a corpse of your age, size and height, put it in your car and drive the car down a very high cliff (without you off course, but make sure that the ring or amulet is in the car, as you want to be identified by it. Also make sure that the teeth of the corps are destroyed enough, so that he can't be identified by it). Have some petrol stored near by, just in case the car isn't burning enough (but make sure too buy it in a way that you won't be identified as buying it later on).

Now you have to leave the country (you have to get a fake passport in a third name for that). Avoid the airport, but use a ferry with a motorbike (so you can wear a helmet without suspicion, so you don't show up on the cameras at the port).
You now travel to the country, in which your second persona is living and wait for the lawyer to show up, telling you that you have just inherited a large sum of money from a distant cousin.

Now you need to go to a plastic surgeon (South America might be a good idea for that, they have experience with this sort of things) and get your face altered, so that you are not recognisable any more.

Once you have fully healed, you go to the Irish embassy in the country, claiming to be a tourist, who has just lost his passport, but has his birth certificate with him, to get a new passport.

Now you are free to travel back and enjoy the money you have left from the insurance after all the house and the surgery has been paid off.

Some steps need some refining, but I leave that up to you.

OU812

^ or... Have a devestating accidental fire in one of the properties & use the insurance to clear the mortgage. Much simpler.

K-9

The banks lended you money based on the value of a property appreciating in value.

Go and rent op, hand the keys back. You've no assets of any value, nothing left to take of you.

You've 2 properties to maintain, give them back and let the banks worry about assets in negative equity.

K-9

As for personal responsibiliy, the guy is trying to fulfill his obligations, there comes a time you go no more, like companies do with liquidation or examinership. Banks just get Government funding.

Once we start giving more protection to companies with limited liability protection and banks with Government, tax payer protection, and expect the ordinary citizen to pay back every penny, well...... that's an unjust society, regardless of your political outlook.

MadsL

K-9 wrote: »

The banks lended you money based on the value of a property appreciating in value..

Errm. Not really sure that that is is how it works.

Wacker The Attacker

Why didnt people choose life before they took out their mortgage?

Wacker The Attacker

K-9 wrote: »

The banks lended you money based on the value of a property appreciating in value.

Go and rent op, hand the keys back. You've no assets of any value, nothing left to take of you.

You've 2 properties to maintain, give them back and let the banks worry about assets in negative equity.

This what they call financial suicide.

The bank(s) will either (a) never lend op a rex for the rest of their natural lif and\or (b) chase them for the shortfall

Wacker The Attacker

K-9 wrote: »

As for personal responsibiliy, the guy is trying to fulfill his obligations, there comes a time you go no more, like companies do with liquidation or examinership. Banks just get Government funding.

Once we start giving more protection to companies with limited liability protection and banks with Government, tax payer protection, and expect the ordinary citizen to pay back every penny, well...... that's an unjust society, regardless of your political outlook.

When was life or society ever fair?

Wacker The Attacker

Pottler wrote: »

I'd be gone, simple as. I'd register as Mr Potler in some far flung place and start over. Mistakes often happen on official forms, I'd be making one of those mistakes. Would I stay and pay? No, I honestly wouldn't, life is too short and when your dead you'll not hear the whinging..

Running away wont fix your problems. It just transfers them to another jurisdiction

trodsky

TOOYOUNGTODIE wrote: »

you wont have money in your pocket.

your going on a one way ticket to 'instalment order' city. population you!!
They will get an order directly against you wages!!

only way to ''hand back the keys'' and have any chance of a life, is to leave this island.

Thats what I did. Left the house and left the country. Havent heard a word since. I'm sure theres a letter or 2 in the hallway

Wacker The Attacker

mariano rivera wrote: »

I wanted an Afterhours view on this as its not just a financial question but a lifestyle question

My story is this:

I built a house back in the boom years

My intention was to sell the house and with the profit have money towards buying my own house

Bank gives me a mortgage for a second house on the back off the house that i have yet to sell

Anyways, boom busts

Now left with two houses in negative equity

Approx. negative equity of 350k

I know, my own fault, my risk etc.

In the last 4 to 5 years, have done deals with the bank

Thankfully, I still have a job, that pays ok

But, I am skint, skint, skint with these payments

No money for anything out of the norm. have to watch every penny.

Unless I live until I am 200 years old, I have no chance of paying back this money

So, I am thinking of handing the keys back to the bank and rent some place and actually have a few bob in my pocket

Don’t care about credit rating or letters form the bank anymore

Just want start living again?

I'm sure you would have handed the profit back to the person you sold the house to so that they could start living again

K-9

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

This what they call financial suicide.

The bank(s) will either (a) never lend op a rex for the rest of their natural lif and\or (b) chase them for the shortfall

a)The OP doesn't seem that worried about it, having money in his pocket seems more of an issue.

b) From what? The OP hasn't told us of any huge assets anywhere!

Madsl wrote:

Errm. Not really sure that that is is how it works.

Indeed, that isn't how it is supposed to work.

JimiTime

funkhouser wrote: »

In any sane and functioning society debt like this, which has no chance of being repaid and should never have been lent in the first place, would be written down and the house sold or used by the bank for maximum return.

People who say "tough but you should remain in debt slavery and have no life ever again, you borrowed it so pay it back" (yawn) are extremely ignorant.

Incurring debt is a two way arrangement and a bank's profit is partially a return on the risk they have taken in lending the money. If I lend a car salesman on 45k a year 500,000 euro to build a house and sell it for profit, going against all previous banking norms, I've taken on a lot more risk than I should have. After it goes belly up; property market or car market crashes or he becomes terrible at selling cars and ends up in a job on 30k a year I wouldn't expect anybody to tell me: "tell him it's all HIS fault, he should live in one room, rent out all the other rooms and should give all his money to the bank for the rest of his working life". The law shouldn't. Society shouldn't. Creeps on internet message boards shouldn't. But they mostly do.

Both parties should take a hit. The more risk a bank takes the bigger hit it should take. Yes, we now own the banks and there are loads of extremely greedy people who won't now pay mortgages just 'cos but a general principle "when the borrower is clearly in great difficulty and the lending was reckless the bank should shoulder a lot of the burden, morally and financially" should really start being recognised by everyone. We'll still be in this situation as a country in 20 years if we don't.

People with impossible debt burdens are not criminals of a lower caste and should not be forced into life long debt slavery.

If I was allowed a sig this big, this would be it! Well said sir/madam!

OU812

To be honest a credit rating isn't anything to be all caught up about.

I'd say maybe 20% of the country has a bad one right now.

So you won't get a credit card or another loan. Not the worst thing in the world. There's prepay credit cards to tackle one of those issues & do you really want to be able to get into MORE debt? Bad credit rating seems like a helpful thing to be honest.

Scanlas The 2nd

I wouldn't pay it back, it's the wrong thing to do by I don't have a problem being immoral at times for my own sled interests.

donegal_road

mariano rivera wrote: »

I wanted an Afterhours view on this as its not just a financial question but a lifestyle question

My story is this:

I built a house back in the boom years

My intention was to sell the house and with the profit have money towards buying my own house

Bank gives me a mortgage for a second house on the back off the house that i have yet to sell

Anyways, boom busts

Now left with two houses in negative equity

Approx. negative equity of 350k

I know, my own fault, my risk etc.

In the last 4 to 5 years, have done deals with the bank

Thankfully, I still have a job, that pays ok

But, I am skint, skint, skint with these payments

No money for anything out of the norm. have to watch every penny.

Unless I live until I am 200 years old, I have no chance of paying back this money

So, I am thinking of handing the keys back to the bank and rent some place and actually have a few bob in my pocket

Don’t care about credit rating or letters form the bank anymore

Just want start living again?

sympathies are with you OP. You only get one life, I'd be out of here if I were you. This country cant sustain the level of debt that it is carrying, something will have to give sooner or later.

Seaneh

mariano rivera wrote: »

I wanted an Afterhours view on this as its not just a financial question but a lifestyle question

My story is this:

I built a house back in the boom years

My intention was to sell the house and with the profit have money towards buying my own house

Bank gives me a mortgage for a second house on the back off the house that i have yet to sell

Anyways, boom busts

Now left with two houses in negative equity

Approx. negative equity of 350k

I know, my own fault, my risk etc.

In the last 4 to 5 years, have done deals with the bank

Thankfully, I still have a job, that pays ok

But, I am skint, skint, skint with these payments

No money for anything out of the norm. have to watch every penny.

Unless I live until I am 200 years old, I have no chance of paying back this money

So, I am thinking of handing the keys back to the bank and rent some place and actually have a few bob in my pocket

Don’t care about credit rating or letters form the bank anymore

Just want start living again?

Where do you live and where do you work?

IF you live close enough to the boarder I'd recommend renting a flat on the otherside of it for the next 6 months, transfer all your bank accounts, bills, tv, phone, everything to that address and then file for bankruptcy in the uk, filing south of the boarder is ****ing horrendous and punitive and honestly a bit of a pisstake, file over the boarder and you will be treated much fairer.


Other option is to rent both properties out at just enough to cover the repayments, and then just rent a smaller gaff yourself that you can afford from your wages and live like everyone else.

That's my advice anyway.

Wacker The Attacker

K-9 wrote: »

a)The OP doesn't seem that worried about it, having money in his pocket seems more of an issue.

b) From what? The OP hasn't told us of any huge assets anywhere!



Indeed, that isn't how it is supposed to work.

The OP's gamble has backfired. Time for him to face up to his responsibilities. The fact that he has no money in his pocket doesnt entitle him or anyone else to a free pass.

For every instance of reckless lending that exists in Ireland there is a reckless borrower.

steve9859

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

The OP's gamble has backfired. Time for him to face up to his responsibilities. The fact that he has no money in his pocket doesnt entitle him or anyone else to a free pass.

For every instance of reckless lending that exists in Ireland there is a reckless borrower.

A very self righteous post. If the alternative is to live in a ditch paying off the banks for the rest of your life, then I would certainly look get out.

The OP will not get rewarded by you, the State or anyone else for being a hero. Rather they will just consign themselves to a pretty miserable life. You only live once, and you have to look after number one, 'cause no-one else is going to.

So how about you imagine yourself in their shoes. Are you so sure that you would be the martyr in their situation?

K-9

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

The OP's gamble has backfired. Time for him to face up to his responsibilities. The fact that he has no money in his pocket doesnt entitle him or anyone else to a free pass.

For every instance of reckless lending that exists in Ireland there is a reckless borrower.

He'll be handing the keys back, it isn't as if he's profiting from it and he has reached deals with them previously.

The guy could be paying back a mortgage for 30 years.

tipptopper

Lord jaysus there is some amount of arseholes on this site. You’d swear none of you ever made a mistake in your lives. So the op over borrowed, big swinging mickey. Ye wasn’t the first to do it, he won’t be the last.


Some posters here saying if he runs he’ll never be able to return to Ireland, bullsh1t.
I left Ireland 5 years ago in a lot of debt. I went to live in England and started a new life, got a good job and over time was able to build a credit rating to buy a house for myself. I never forged documents to change my ID, I am the same person as I was at home only in a different country.


It took me a long time to get on my feet, when I left I was suicidal and will openly admit that. Several times I was close to ending it all. I was lucky enough to meet a lass who helped me get back on my feet(emotional support wise).
In the first 3 years over here, I got 3 letters from the bank I owed money to (my home address) and that was it. None of them threatening I might add.


I contacted them when I was in a fit state emotionally to deal with what I had ran from and from my experience, it seemed that If I hadn’t contacted them they certainly weren’t in any hurry trying to recoup the money.


I was lucky enough in that I had a bit of land and sold it to pay back my debt but for posters to suggest banks will follow you to the end of the earth is total bull sh1t. In the early years before I had repaid the money I went home several times and never once was a garda at the ferry to arrest me.


Op, do what you think is right. People on here can spout whatever sh1t they want, they’ve yet to make a mistake in life so they can’t be judged.
Your debt is just going to be another one in a long line left by seanie fitz and his likes.
Some will run and leave the debt, some will pay it back, whatever you do is up to you, best of luck.

Emeraldy Pebbles

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole I built a house to sell and use the profits to build my own house is one of the most ridiculous things that people do.

It's straight-up gambling. Except that for some reason, people always expect they'll win.

jackal

Just hold on for a while longer and take advantage of the new bankruptcy legislation. You will be fúcked for a few years and your credit history will be muck, but you will get a fresh start.

No point continuing this "extend and pretend" mentality. A couple of big expenses and you are going to fall behind on the mortgage and get hopelessly under water on the debts.

The banks will have to engage soon with people who are simply looking at a miserable life paying off a debt at the expense of everything else. Its not realistic. The banks have been given provisions for bad loans, time to start using them.

intellectual dosser

Can the OP not take some comfort in the knowledge that this is as bad as it should get. Its possible that the global economy could dip again but there seems to be less people preaching that now than there was a year ago.

Yesterday it was reported that house prices are starting to go up ever so slightly. OP - your houses are more likely to be valued higher at some point in the future - its doom and gloom now but things are only going to get better. They may not reach the value you bought them for, but at least a point where you could offload one to give you relief on your repayments.

There's also the incoming legislation to better protect people in your situation, I'd also think the govt are going to have to act in your favour to prevent the thousands of people in your situation from being unable to repay their debts (>brokebanks>anotherbailout). Maybe some sort of tax relief or something.

Squiggle

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Yesterday it was reported that house prices are starting to go up ever so slightly. OP - your houses are more likely to be valued higher at some point in the future - its doom and gloom now but things are only going to get better.

Where is the growth going to come from? Exports? They rose by 50%from 2000 to 2010 with employment falling by 50000 in the sector during the same period ! Check the latest PMI numbers from Europe - only a politician or the deluded could be optimistic by reading them. Retail sales in Ireland have fallen qtr on qtr for 3.5 years ! There were 33000 less people working at the end of the 2nd quarter compared to the 1st qtr. not reflected in the unemployment rate because of emigration. There is more austerity on the way, €3.5bn in this budget alone which will further reduce domestic demand - less demand for goods and services means less demand for labour that's need to produce them ! Make no mistake we are majorly fúcked and will remain so for a generation unless we are to properly address the issue of debt overhang.

Brain Stroking

funkhouser wrote: »

In any sane and functioning society debt like this, which has no chance of being repaid and should never have been lent in the first place, would be written down and the house sold or used by the bank for maximum return.

People who say "tough but you should remain in debt slavery and have no life ever again, you borrowed it so pay it back" (yawn) are extremely ignorant.

Incurring debt is a two way arrangement and a bank's profit is partially a return on the risk they have taken in lending the money. If I lend a car salesman on 45k a year 500,000 euro to build a house and sell it for profit, going against all previous banking norms, I've taken on a lot more risk than I should have. After it goes belly up; property market or car market crashes or he becomes terrible at selling cars and ends up in a job on 30k a year I wouldn't expect anybody to tell me: "tell him it's all HIS fault, he should live in one room, rent out all the other rooms and should give all his money to the bank for the rest of his working life". The law shouldn't. Society shouldn't. Creeps on internet message boards shouldn't. But they mostly do.

Both parties should take a hit. The more risk a bank takes the bigger hit it should take. Yes, we now own the banks and there are loads of extremely greedy people who won't now pay mortgages just 'cos but a general principle "when the borrower is clearly in great difficulty and the lending was reckless the bank should shoulder a lot of the burden, morally and financially" should really start being recognised by everyone. We'll still be in this situation as a country in 20 years if we don't.

People with impossible debt burdens are not criminals of a lower caste and should not be forced into life long debt slavery.

Wonderfully idealistic but complete poppycock.

You seem to misunderstand the nature of mortgage debt.

It isnt a "two way arrangement" and was never intended to be. Mortgages are a product/service offered by the lender no different to any lender. The Banks arent philanthropical. They are there to make money. Ever look at a letter of loan offer? Have a look at what is being borrowed and then look at the total cost of the borrowing. That should tell you all you need to know.

I feel sorry for the OP but it was a business decision that flopped. Whether that was unlucky or not is irrelevant. If the OP had made a profit on his endeavour, was he planning on giving the Bank a little more than agreed in the mortgage as a gesture of goodwill?

People need to wake up, get real and stop the whining. If you take out a mortgage you have to pay it back. Shock horror.

allibastor

mariano rivera wrote: »

I don't want to emigrate

I am Irish and want to live in Ireland

Second house is rented out

I have 2 people living with me who pay rent

All the money going to the bank

BTW, i am not looking for sympathy

Lately, I have been thinking that, I have one life to live.

If i could ask,

Whats is your family situation? Do you ahve Wife, Kids all that stuff. Just to know so be able to offer better answers instead of comments and other rubbish

Pottler

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Running away wont fix your problems. It just transfers them to another jurisdiction

I'm going nowhere btw, no mortgage as it happens, was just putting myself in the OPs position.

mariano rivera

allibastor wrote: »

If i could ask,

Whats is your family situation? Do you ahve Wife, Kids all that stuff. Just to know so be able to offer better answers instead of comments and other rubbish

I am single


Surprised really, sure what girl wouldn't want to be burdened with thousands of euros worth of debt!

:p



Thanks very much for the genuinely helpful replies. I am surprised that i got such a response from AH

(Y'all getting soft )

I not going to emigrate. Do a certain extent i have a F*ck 'em mentality


As much as i made my own mistakes, i am not having some bank/ money lender force me out of my country. Anyways, the debts will still be here

I work hard, pay my taxes, contribute to my community so they are not pushing me out.

I will stick with it for a while, maybe speak to a solicitor

Let me re-iterate a couple of things

- It was my decision to take out these loans, i am not looking for sympathy
- However, I only have one life to live. I really don't care about the small print on a legal document. These documents THAT I SIGNED do NOT ascertain who i am as a person or what type of citizen i am


Hopefully, there might be some debt forgiveness but i really dont think so
Banker do as bankers do. They will bleed me (and everyone else in this situation) for as long as they can. This is the nature of their business. And i am ok with that


However,

I am reaching a stage where i they can all go to hell

Take money from my wages if you wish

Send me letters

Threaten me with legal action

Call my phone

They can all go to HELL HELL HELL


One life to live!



Thanks again for replies

problemchimp

Is there anything to be said for another mass?

Kess73

problemchimp wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for another mass?

That did not work out too well with the milkfloat incident.:D

population

OP I know you are talking about staying but if you do go abroad and you have no money and no assets and the bank know this, I just cannot see them spending all that money looking for you, trying to investigate you, trying to get you to go to court in another country etc with all the costs involved. Why do it when they will not get any money back and in fact will only add to their own debt? Blood from a stone etc.

I could be wrong on that, I am no solicitor or accountant but if someone said to me 'Give me 30k to chase this guy and get him to court and I guarantee you at least 100 euros back' I would politely tell them where to go with their scheme

Japer

funkhouser wrote: »

In any sane and functioning society debt like this, which has no chance of being repaid and should never have been lent in the first place, would be written down and the house sold or used by the bank for maximum return.

People who say "tough but you should remain in debt slavery and have no life ever again, you borrowed it so pay it back" (yawn) are extremely ignorant.

Incurring debt is a two way arrangement and a bank's profit is partially a return on the risk they have taken in lending the money. If I lend a car salesman on 45k a year 500,000 euro to build a house and sell it for profit, going against all previous banking norms, I've taken on a lot more risk than I should have. After it goes belly up; property market or car market crashes or he becomes terrible at selling cars and ends up in a job on 30k a year I wouldn't expect anybody to tell me: "tell him it's all HIS fault, he should live in one room, rent out all the other rooms and should give all his money to the bank for the rest of his working life". The law shouldn't. Society shouldn't. Creeps on internet message boards shouldn't. But they mostly do.

Both parties should take a hit. The more risk a bank takes the bigger hit it should take. Yes, we now own the banks and there are loads of extremely greedy people who won't now pay mortgages just 'cos but a general principle "when the borrower is clearly in great difficulty and the lending was reckless the bank should shoulder a lot of the burden, morally and financially" should really start being recognised by everyone. We'll still be in this situation as a country in 20 years if we don't.

People with impossible debt burdens are not criminals of a lower caste and should not be forced into life long debt slavery.

Excellent post. Some banks / building societes got greedy to grow their loan book by unsustainable amounts each year, and lent money which should never have been lent. That in itself helped inflate the bubble / increase prices. The bankers got their bonuses. Nobody in the banks or the regulators office or the central bank was punished yet. However ordinary people investing their savings and trying to provide for their retirement got burnt. ...these people should not be forced into life long debt slavery when there are top public servants responsible for the mess ( Bertie Aherm, the top central bankers, the regulator ) and top bankers all on 6 figure ( over €100,000 ) pensions.