Brian Lenihan's official letter asking for our bailout has been released.

squod

poeticseraphim wrote: »

No one had a clue about the secret loans except Neary the regulator (and those involved)who had known for years and was advising in writing that Lenihan garantee the banks.

Are we talking specifically about Anglo here? Have you listened to the Burtons interview about the meetings? Secret loans or no, we were being put in hoc for billions for some poxy little bank for no apparent reason.

Can see me spending time lookin up articles and quotes from four years back. Seems peoples memories are short.

poeticseraphim

squod wrote: »

Are we talking specifically about Anglo here? Have you listened to the Burtons interview about the meetings? Secret loans or no, we were being put in hoc for billions for some poxy little bank for no apparent reason.

Can see me spending time lookin up articles and quotes from four years back. Seems peoples memories are short.

In 2009 Richard Bruton of the opposition's Fine Gael responded by calling the recapitalisation plan a "€7 billion gamble on the wrong horse".

This was AFTER the gauruntee.

The Fine Gael finance spokesman Richard Bruton called for the board and senior management of the Financial Regulator to be sacked.They largely were or they resigned.

The Financial Regulator hired a partner from Ernst & Young, to advise on the €440 billion bank guarantee scheme in January 2009, despite the fact that serious questions have been asked about why Ernst & Young did not spot the massive loans that former chief executive Seán FitzPatrick concealed from his shareholders for eight years. Consultants Mazars, which reviewed their operations said "that regulatory expertise was lacking in some areas".

The Chief Executive of the Financial Regulator said that "a lay person would expect that issues of this nature and this magnitude would have been picked up" by the external auditors, Ernst & Young.[9] After receiving legal advice Ernst & Young declined to appear before a parliamentary committee.[10]

This in turn led to inaccurate figures for the total directors' loans given for eight consecutive years in the end of year Anglo accounts. 2008 was the first occasion on which FitzPatrick revealed his true figure, that of €87 million or twice the total of the other twelve directors' loan figures.[11]

The situation has been described as Ireland's version of Enron, the American energy company which went bankrupt in 2001, and it has been said that the principals would be immediately arrested if this had occurred in the United States.

The Garantee happened in September 2008...Richard Bruton started to question the ministers decision in December 2008.

The loans only became known on the 17th of deember 2008...
It emerges that Lenihan had insisted upon a review of these unknown loans ...the regulator wantd to simply continue ...without Lenihans intervention into an area he had no reason to assume his regulator was not dealing with we would not have known for months later...as is happening in Spain..have him to be grateful for on that

It is sept 2008 the garantee is in place and it is Dec 2008 richard Bruton and Mary hanafin start to question Anglo Irish recapitalization....

The six other banks had already also been garanteed in sept 2008 by th way

Their objectins were raised retrospetively BECAUSE OF THE REVIEW DONE AND ASKED BY LENIHAN HIMSELF they only found out because of him....

He was the one who actually found a lot of this stuff out and brought it to light beleive it or not...

Yes he made a mistake.....but people were behaving illegally..

Pottler

dj jarvis wrote: »

sure what is done is done

the focus of our Muppet Government is to get the rates lowered, and the term length into 40 plus years , best of a bad deal , becasue anyone that thinks we are going to get a right off is deluded.

we , and our children and even our grand children will be paying for this for a long time

as much as i want to see people jailed - it WILL NOT change the above

I don't agree. The public purse was robbed in order to pay private losses. And make no mistake, it was robbed, and is still being robbed. If all the Banking bets had paid off, would they have shared the gains so quickly and freely? Ask yourself that. What's done is not always done. it can be reviewed and overturned, but that takes guts and a strong government, neither of which we have, now, but maybe in the near future??

squod

poeticseraphim wrote: »

BECAUSE OF THE REVIEW DONE AND ASKED BY LENIHAN HIMSELF they only found out because of him....

He was the one who actually found a lot of this stuff out and brought it to light beleive it or not...

Yes he made a mistake.....but people were behaving illegally..

This is the political equivalent of saying the dog ate my homework. There's been a load of guff and guille going on that's beyond question.


What you're telling me is that he made a mistake, what I'm saying is that he did not.

Show Time

Stinicker wrote: »

They talk of Dermot MacMurrough but this man, Bertie Ahern and the entire Fianna Fail cabinet will long be remembered as the greatest traitors ever in Irish history.

I shed no tear the day lendahand died and quite frankly the smell of karma was quite refreshing that day.

The cnut knew he had a big fat pension to care for his spawn.

Stinicker

steve9859 wrote: »

Jesus Christ....you write that like you genuinely believe that he did it on purpose. That he had a painless way out and instead he thought 'no, let's not do that, let's screw everyone'.

He had a painless way out, burn the bondholders, let the developers bank Anglo Irish fail and protect the interests of the people. Instead Fianna Fail chose to protect their close cronies and cripple the nation with debt. When Lehman bros. failed George W. Bush did nothing, he stood by and watched a bank fail, that was the right thing to do, however if that happened in Ireland too many Fianna Fail cronies would be brought to task for their wreckless borrowing and might even face the prospect of being held responsible for the callous actions.

These crowd stole the wealth of the nation and nationalised the private gambling losses of the rich.

K-9

squod wrote: »

You'd have to ask why they did it. Why Joan Burton was told to f'off when she said the very idea of bailing Anglo was madness. I followed the story very closely in the lead up to, during and after the treason of Sept 2008.

Like that bloke in the video said. It was done unilaterally, in the dead of night, without consulting Europe .

People were worried about Anglo in the months leading up to the guarantee, the Department of Finance line is they never recommended the guarantee of Anglo.

Personally I think Lenihan knew Anglo had big problems but didn't think it would lead to the collapse of Anglo overnight, which was going to happen on that night. He went for a brave option, to guarantee all the Irish institutions including bondholder debt, something McWilliams had recommended a couple of months earlier. There's a thin line between bravery and stupidity though, a politician will pay the price for that, a pop economist doesn't.

Once the guarantee was made and NAMA set up, both dependent on ECB funding, the ECB called the tune. 2 years later they finally got sick of the Irish incompetence, things like trying to convince them Anglo was still viable and eventually, the ECB called, they wanted their money back.

As for what happened on the night of the guarantee, we;ll probably never know the full story as there is no paper trail.

K-9

Stinicker wrote: »

He had a painless way out, burn the bondholders, let the developers bank Anglo Irish fail and protect the interests of the people. Instead Fianna Fail chose to protect their close cronies and cripple the nation with debt. When Lehman bros. failed George W. Bush did nothing, he stood by and watched a bank fail, that was the right thing to do, however if that happened in Ireland too many Fianna Fail cronies would be brought to task for their wreckless borrowing and might even face the prospect of being held responsible for the callous actions.

These crowd stole the wealth of the nation and nationalised the private gambling losses of the rich.

It would not have been painless, that's a myth. It still would have cost us Billions, maybe not €30 Billion but banks do cost money when you wind them up. Deposits need to be honoured, senior bondholders paid out, even at a discount, assets like property loans revalued, worth a pittance of land and property security held.

tayto lover

Stinicker wrote: »

He had a painless way out, burn the bondholders, let the developers bank Anglo Irish fail and protect the interests of the people. Instead Fianna Fail chose to protect their close cronies and cripple the nation with debt. When Lehman bros. failed George W. Bush did nothing, he stood by and watched a bank fail, that was the right thing to do, however if that happened in Ireland too many Fianna Fail cronies would be brought to task for their wreckless borrowing and might even face the prospect of being held responsible for the callous actions.

These crowd stole the wealth of the nation and nationalised the private gambling losses of the rich.

Does anyone know anyone who had a mortgage or account in Anglo?
I have never even seen a branch in any Irish town.
I believe it was for developers and politicians use to a large degree.

tayto lover

K-9 wrote: »

People were worried about Anglo in the months leading up to the guarantee, the Department of Finance line is they never recommended the guarantee of Anglo.

Personally I think Lenihan knew Anglo had big problems but didn't think it would lead to the collapse of Anglo overnight, which was going to happen on that night. He went for a brave option, to guarantee all the Irish institutions including bondholder debt, something McWilliams had recommended a couple of months earlier. There's a thin line between bravery and stupidity though, a politician will pay the price for that, a pop economist doesn't.

Once the guarantee was made and NAMA set up, both dependent on ECB funding, the ECB called the tune. 2 years later they finally got sick of the Irish incompetence, things like trying to convince them Anglo was still viable and eventually, the ECB called, they wanted their money back.

As for what happened on the night of the guarantee, we;ll probably never know the full story as there is no paper trail.

Your last sentence says everything.
COVER-UP.

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

Does anyone know anyone who had a mortgage or account in Anglo?
I have never even seen a branch in any Irish town.
I believe it was for developers and politicians use to a large degree.

I'd be surprised as they were a commercial bank, so thinking like that is pointless.

Deposits would be important, amounts owed to other Irish banks, the Central Bank, stuff like that. It was an important player in providing finance for the property sector, which accounted for about 25% of the economy and 100's of thousands of direct and indirect jobs.

Doesn't mean it should have been guaranteed, but reducing it to, "sure I don't know anybody who'd a mortgage with it" really misses the bigger picture.

tayto lover

K-9 wrote: »

I'd be surprised as they were a commercial bank, so thinking like that is pointless.

Deposits would be important, amounts owed to other Irish banks, the Central Bank, stuff like that. It was an important player in providing finance for the property sector, which accounted for about 25% of the economy and 100's of thousands of direct and indirect jobs.

Doesn't mean it should have been guaranteed, but reducing it to, "sure I don't know anybody who'd a mortgage with it" really misses the bigger picture.

Maybe so but I can't help thinking that they were more interested in the property developers than the workers as the building game was well on the wane at that stage.
Isn't that where Phil Hogan went for his mortgages too, to Seanie?

poeticseraphim

Stinicker wrote: »

He had a painless way out, burn the bondholders, let the developers bank Anglo Irish fail and protect the interests of the people. Instead Fianna Fail chose to protect their close cronies and cripple the nation with debt. When Lehman bros. failed George W. Bush did nothing, he stood by and watched a bank fail, that was the right thing to do, however if that happened in Ireland too many Fianna Fail cronies would be brought to task for their wreckless borrowing and might even face the prospect of being held responsible for the callous actions.

These crowd stole the wealth of the nation and nationalised the private gambling losses of the rich.

It would have meant burning the Americans....are you crazy


America did not let the banks fail they had TARP.

We had American bondholder ..and the fed on us...without the ecb to back us up we could not have.

It would not have been painless.

A third of the bondholders were Irish...it would have wiped out savings and pensions.

Capital flight would have destroyed us...not just immediately but long term...we would have been frced out of the EURO and would hav had to bring the deficit which is /was huge under control immediately, which we hav not done now..welfare ,public srvices wiped out ..no urrency..savings wiped out...all overnight ..a bank run...and we were forced out of the markets ...sound like a good idea?

We should have gone for the bailout way before ...forced the banks to recognise some losses and recapitalized them immediately within a range of sustainable debt.



The thing regardless of what we did we would still have to suffer austerity.

We should have insisted that the blame was shared with credit agencies and eu regulation and the irish regulator.

Thee ironic thing is if you think that Lenihan and co were to blame the fault lies firmly with the Irish govt....and really that means it is the countries debt. If it is the fault of the Irish finance minister then as far as the world is concerned it should be a solely Irish problem. We cannot expect other countries to pick up the tab for an irresponsible govt. If sovereign decisions alone led to this then we have no case.

I don't believe this is the case, i believe fraud led to this on a massive scale and we were lied to be the international banking community and they are supposed to be reegulaqted by others too. And poor eu rgulation.

The whole basis of debt write off is not it is privsate debt...it does not matter it was still under Irish regulation..we burn them they have a right to sue. Regardless of any garantee you cannot walk away from the states responsibilty to regulate. But if you believe that also EU regulation let us down alongside international credit agencies and fraud we have a right to say it was not simply our carlessness. If you think the Irish govt was to blame then the Irish govt has to pay.


Just because a debt is privatised does not mean a bondholder or the fed or the ECB will not hold the state responsible for not regulating the industry. The fact is this happened in other countries besides Ireland.

IF it is all Lenihans fault then the state has to pay...if it is not then we do have a case for debt negotiation.

poeticseraphim

And anyway even without the bank debt our own sovereign debt was still going to mean we would need a bailout anyway.

And the reports were the Fed was worried about its exposure to Irish banks and would not have agreed to an IMF bailout without tying bank debt to sovereign debt.

And our own debt at the time before the garantee as a soverign state required a bailout.

So there it is possible he ha no choice.

This is what Brian Lucey reported ..I think

opinion guy

In my opinion this letter being released now is a warning shot across the bow to Europe.

This letter doesn't matter. The letter that does matter is the ECB one. I'd put money on Kenny is using it to play hardball. How else do you explain the turnaround by Merkel and the French over the weekend if Kenny doesn't have a secret weapon to threaten them with ?

I reckon after they f**ked Enda the previous week, he flew in person to show them the letter/promise them it was coming out. Hence the turn around.

I reckon this letter being released now is a not so subtle kick in the ribs for Fianna Fail and a subtle message to Europe saying 'Do. Not. ****. With. Us.'

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe so but I can't help thinking that they were more interested in the property developers than the workers as the building game was well on the wane at that stage.
Isn't that where Phil Hogan went for his mortgages too, to Seanie?

I'm not looking at it from now, I'm looking at it from then.

You made the point about mortgages and Anglo, who do you think was a big player in lending to the local builder and property speculator? The developer the mortgage payer paid his mortgage to?

The whole thing was a bubble and ponzi scheme, somebody provided the finance for the sucker at the bottom to actually have a product to buy a lemon.

lightspeed

dj jarvis wrote: »

what we really want is the letter from the ECB, basically telling us we had no choice , that if we did not ask for help the banking system in Europe would collapse

they called our bluff - they knew full well that we were singled out as Europe whipping boys , i would wager that we released these letters in a hope that the ECB would release the "demand" letter sent by jean "crunt " junkers

if it is shown publicly , then the EU will HAVE NO CHOICE but to cut the rates being charged for the bail out, they will look REALLY bad if they dont

so the EU is one big family ? well if this is how the other members of the " family " treat you, then we should get a divorce

why would they care about looking really bad? Irish politicians rarely care about how bad they look to the electorate, why do you imagine anybody from the ECB or troika etc. would give a damn?

Any deal made is going to be dictated and based on german politics, not irish.

Fishooks12

The amount of uniformed crap being spouted on this thread. Like an Eirgi rally.

phoenix999

opinion guy wrote: »

In my opinion this letter being released now is a warning shot across the bow to Europe.

This letter doesn't matter. The letter that does matter is the ECB one. I'd put money on Kenny is using it to play hardball. How else do you explain the turnaround by Merkel and the French over the weekend if Kenny doesn't have a secret weapon to threaten them with ?

I reckon after they f**ked Enda the previous week, he flew in person to show them the letter/promise them it was coming out. Hence the turn around.

I reckon this letter being released now is a not so subtle kick in the ribs for Fianna Fail and a subtle message to Europe saying 'Do. Not. ****. With. Us.'

Yes that's the letter that we want to see. I expect it's only a matter of time. Mary O'Rourke stated that the stress of the whole affair contributed to Lenihan's pancreatic cancer.

hatrickpatrick

The threat from the ECB needs to be released, the sooner the better.
The people who are claiming it doesn't matter or won't make a difference aren't seeing the big picture - if the ECB truly did blackmail us into the bailout, it will add fuel to the fire of not only the Irish people but people all across Europe who are currently suffering austerity to rise up against the financial elite who are running the entire system purely for their own benefit.

Someone will accuse me of conspiracy theorism for writing that, of course, but IMO it doesn't take a genius to realize that everything that's happening in the Eurozone today has absolutely nothing to do with the wellbeing of anyone in Europe and everything to do with the pockets of the anonymous "investors" in the banks, who are the only people who are suffering absolutely no losses whatsoever in this mess.