Pregnancy from rape is 'God's will' - Apparentely

g'em

philologos wrote: »

g'em: how do you think society should understand children born through rape? I think my framework as a Christian helps me to understand how I should see other people irrespective of circumstances namely as people born in the image of God. As a result this motivates how Christians seek to love and respect others even those who viciously hate them or what they stand for.

How does society come into this? A child born from rape is treated exactly as any other would, they don't go around with labels stitched into their underpants saying "I'm a rape baby, love me!". That is not what I said above, so your strawman argument is sounding a tad rich.

Your Christian framework may extend to love and respect others but not, it seems, the extent that you will address my actual point. Let me reiterate what I said:

I, as a woman, am tired and sore from reading arguments (notably from men) trying to tell me that there is a plus side to rape. Rape is one of the most heinous crimes that exist and to try and put a positive spin on it is offensive and indecent.

philologos

Society comes into it certainly. This issue affects how we understand the human being. If you're going to strongly object to my position on a child conceived or born as a result of rape, I think you need to present an alternative. I believe that there is huge potential to someone who is born in even these horrific circumstances. I believe that great things can truly come from such people.

Irrespective of my gender this issue is up for discussion. There's nothing rich about my position, its looking at this in a fair manner rather than engaging in faux-outrage. Perhaps people should listen and think about this before lobbing ad-hominems in.

g'em

philologos wrote: »

Society comes into it certainly. This issue affects how we understand the human being. If you're going to strongly object to my position on a child conceived or born as a result of rape, I think you need to present an alternative. I believe that there is huge potential to someone who is born in even these horrific circumstances. I believe that great things can truly come from such people.

Irrespective of my gender this issue is up for discussion.

It's like talking to Maud Flanders wringing her hands wailing "won't somebody think of the children!!"

Right there is the reason why videos like the one in the OP strike fear into so many people; it's the chance that individuals like that will one day decide National policy on the rights and well being of women who are subject to crimes like rape.

philologos to make that child a woman needs to be raped. Where's your compassion for her in your Christian ethos? Or is the onus on her to accept the rape as an act of God? Like seamus said if the child is a blessing then so is the rape.

3ndahalfof6

Considering this seems to have been taken into a religious context, my question is, did Mary consent, or was she just told, you were violated but you must give birth,

if I am out of place just let me know I will leave.

philologos

Forget Maud Flanders. This is a real issue and a difficult one. There's no point in shying away from it. I think the key should be for police resources to reduce sexual assault, I think it's horrific.

However I understand that life born through rape is inherently no different to other life and should be valued.

Again I've made crystal clear rape is horrific, but the life that comes from it is still good irrespective of what circumstances it is conceived in.

What are you saying about that life?
As for lacking compassion what specifically are you referring to?

robman60

While I respect philologos view and agree with it in some ways, I think he's failing to get his point across properly.

Here's an example which I think gets the position across quite well. (It's actually a true story, too).

A woman, who was trying to start a family with her partner was raped. Some time after the rape she found out she was pregnant. Assuming that the father was the rapist, she aborted the child, but requested that a DNA test be carried out on the child to see whose the child was. To her horror, the child she'd aborted was actually her partner's. She was devastated because her child's life was over (this is how it was written in the article as far as I recall, please don't start telling me it wasn't a life or something, that's a separate debate). The question is, if you value life in the womb as a living individual of the human race, the means of conception cannot affect the value of the life.

As absolutely horrific and disgusting as rape is, it doesn't have an effect on how I value the innocent child. When I hear these silly statements - and by any standards, the statement is ludicrous - I think in some way this is what the person is trying to get across.


Edit: Philologos: You've made your position much clearer in the above post.

Also, I think it's worth adding that when people say the child conceived by rape is a blessing, it doesn't necessarily mean a religious blessing. Rather that the child's life and existence is an earthly blessing. That's how I interpret it, at least.

Fighting Irish

sure give him publicity

flutterflye

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

Considering this seems to have been taken into a religious context, my question is, did Mary consent, or was she just told, you were violated but you must give birth,

if I am out of place just let me know I will leave.

I reckon Mary just shagged someone who wasn't her husband, so had to make up a story.

B0jangles

robman60 wrote: »

As absolutely horrific and disgusting as rape is, it doesn't have an effect on how I value the innocent child.

When science is able to transfer a pregnancy from a rape victim into your body for you to bear for nine months and rasise thereafter, then how you "value the innocent child" is relevant.

Until that happens, you should have no expectation to have an input on whether a rape victim chooses to continue with a pregnancy. It's terribly easy to have strong, fixed opinions on things that can never happen to you personally.

3ndahalfof6

Would I be wrong in thinking if someone was raped they would have the option of the morning after pill, stopping any chance of life being started.

once again just let me know if I am reading the thread title wrong, I will abscond.

flutterflye

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

Would I be wrong in thinking if someone was raped they would have the option of the morning after pill, stopping any chance of life being started.

once again just let me know if I am reading the thread title wrong, I will abscond.

I guess maybe you'd be in shock and mightn't think of it?

philologos

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think anyone in modern society blames the child for what happened to their mother but you do seem to be validating the actions of the rapist making him out to be a tool for gods work.

Yes a child is "a blessing" and the mother will more than likely love them regardless but just because a child of rape can be good, normal and a benefit to the parent doesn't make the rapist a considerate person for bestowing that gift on his victim. The ends don't justify the means because that woman could have gone on to have a child in a more traditional family, with a mother and father and without all the anguish.

Unless there's evidence the children of rape turn out to be super productive members of society I think there's no evidence that children of rape are a necessity to gods plan.

I never said rape was good for the umpteenth time if you care to listen. I said good can come out of evil.

g'em

philologos wrote: »

Rape is a great evil, but life even as a result of pregnancy even from rape is a blessing.

I have no issue with that, and I don't see how it's objectionable.

That is what you said. You put a caveat on rape, you suggested that there can be a positive outcome to it, a blessing. It's like apologising to someone and putting "but..." at the end of it. "I'm sorry you were raped... but look at the blessing you have now!". It's justifying the crime.

philologos wrote: »

What are you saying about that life?
As for lacking compassion what specifically are you referring to?

I'm not saying anything about life, that's my point. This is about the crime, the injustice to a woman when she is raped. There is - to me - a lack of compassion towards the women subjected to this crime in the argument you are making because it's all about the blessing, the God aspect, the end justifying the means.

robman60

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

Would I be wrong in thinking if someone was raped they would have the option of the morning after pill, stopping any chance of life being started.

once again just let me know if I am reading the thread title wrong, I will abscond.

Yes, they could. Bear in mind though that this wouldn't be 100% successful.

I read recently that the MAP actually prevents conception from ever happening, which would also take any moral issues out of the equation. As far as I know this was just a hunch that a group of scientists had, not actual proof.

g'em

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

Would I be wrong in thinking if someone was raped they would have the option of the morning after pill, stopping any chance of life being started.

once again just let me know if I am reading the thread title wrong, I will abscond.

At the risk of opening a can of worms, this is where I have difficulty with those of the religious persuasion making points like the ones philologo's is making. If a child born of rape is a blessing it takes away a woman's choice to decide whether she wants the child for herself. Besides which the shame, disgust, fear, distress and confusion resulting from an act of rape often results in women not seeking any medical treatment at all, nevermind the MAP. So yes, they would have the option but I'd be unsure how many women would actually avail of it.

philologos

g'em wrote: »

That is what you said. You put a caveat on rape, you suggested that there can be a positive outcome to it, a blessing. It's like apologising to someone and putting "but..." at the end of it. "I'm sorry you were raped... but look at the blessing you have now!". It's justifying the crime.

No I don't justify the crime. If you choose to add assumptions to what I say that's your doing not mine. Good things can come from evil. Evil is still evil even if good comes out of it.

I'm not saying anything about life, that's my point. This is about the crime, the injustice to a woman when she is raped. There is - to me - a lack of compassion towards the women subjected to this crime in the argument you are making because it's all about the blessing, the God aspect, the end justifying the means.

If you're going to criticise me for viewing life irrespective of conception as a blessing then I believe I have the right at least to ask you what you make of it.

I've not praised rape once which makes your objection based on your own assumption rather than what I said which to be honest irks me a bit. You're misrepresenting what I've said.

shopaholic01

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

Would I be wrong in thinking if someone was raped they would have the option of the morning after pill, stopping any chance of life being started.

once again just let me know if I am reading the thread title wrong, I will abscond.

Emergency contraception is not 100% effective, even if taken within the recommended timeframe.

It's also highly unlikey that a woman who has been raped will think logically.

super_furry

Plus I've little doubt that many of the same advocates of forcing raped women to bear the child of their rapist, would consider the morning after pill a form of abortion.

Death and Taxes

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

Would I be wrong in thinking if someone was raped they would have the option of the morning after pill, stopping any chance of life being started.

once again just let me know if I am reading the thread title wrong, I will abscond.

Yes , you would be wrong, the morning after pill does NO guarentee "stopping life being started" as you put it.

3ndahalfof6

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Emergency contraception is not 100% effective, even if taken within the recommended timeframe.

It's also highly unlikey that a woman who has been raped will think logically.

I am replying to your post because there have been similar reply's, I am not sure how long it would take for a life to be created, (is it different for every woman)

I do understand that a woman put in this position might (and would) tell nobody about it, but I would be thinking this would be in the minority,

if they have family (married or other) distress would be noticed and possible bruising and scars, so it would be their friends or family asking questions (if they think the person is acting unusual)

I would be guessing (the not telling anyone) would be a small number, so while the person who has been violated would or might feel shame, there is a good chance they would talk to someone about their experience,

and any good advice available would be shown to them, (to let them make an early decision)

what is the percentage of births from rape, is there one?

in this I mean, the amount of rapes that take place how many lives are created.

otto_26

professore wrote: »

If you are a religious person (which I am NOT) this is a perfectly reasonable and logical standpoint.

It's common and OK for a mother to kill her unborn child.

If you are a non-religious person this is a perfectly reasonable and logical standpoint.

kowloon

flutterflye wrote: »

I reckon Mary just shagged someone who wasn't her husband, so had to make up a story.

Reminds me of that woman who claimed her daughter got pregnant because someone spunked in the swimming pool. I suspect the daughter may have had sexy time and lied about it.
Or maybe it was a miracle, who knows?

robman60

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

what is the percentage of births from rape, is there one?

Amazingly, the percentage of pregnant rape victims who don't abort is higher than that of the general pregnancy rate. 15-25% of pregnant rape victims in the USA get abortions, while the rate of abortion for all pregnancies is a startlingly high rate of 22%. 6% of Irish pregnancies are aborted.

B0jangles

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

I do understand that a woman put in this position might (and would) tell nobody about it, but I would be thinking this would be in the minority,

You would be wrong.

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

I would be guessing (the not telling anyone) would be a small number, so while the person who has been violated would or might feel shame, there is a good chance they would talk to someone about their experience,

You would be wrong.

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

what is the percentage of births from rape, is there one?

Pregnancies resulting from rape occur at the same rate as from normal consensual sex - around 5% if I remember correctly.

krudler

philologos wrote: »

I never said rape was good for the umpteenth time if you care to listen. I said good can come out of evil.

You said god can use a tool of evil for good, so using that logic, a woman who god wants to have a baby, she has it through sexual assault, not a loving relationship, making god a complete asshole. you're really not doing god any favours with these arguments.

shopaholic01

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

I am replying to your post because there have been similar reply's, I am not sure how long it would take for a life to be created, (is it different for every woman)

I do understand that a woman put in this position might (and would) tell nobody about it, but I would be thinking this would be in the minority,

if they have family (married or other) distress would be noticed and possible bruising and scars, so it would be their friends or family asking questions (if they think the person is acting unusual)

I would be guessing (the not telling anyone) would be a small number, so while the person who has been violated would or might feel shame, there is a good chance they would talk to someone about their experience,

and any good advice available would be shown to them, (to let them make an early decision)

what is the percentage of births from rape, is there one?

in this I mean, the amount of rapes that take place how many lives are created.

A lot of women delay reporting rape - shock, trauma, humilation, fear of being judged etc. EC really needs to be used within 72 hours.

I don't have percentages on births resulting from rape - try Google. Is it really relevant anyway? If a woman beomes pregnant as a result of being raped she should be allowed to consider an abortion/have an abortion without being judged, or being told to accept the child as a 'gift from god' or 'good from evil'.

3ndahalfof6

shopaholic01 wrote: »

A lot of women delay reporting rape - shock, trauma, humilation, fear of being judged etc. EC really needs to be used within 72 hours.

I don't have percentages on births resulting from rape - try Google. Is it really relevant anyway? If a woman beomes pregnant as a result of being raped she should be allowed to consider an abortion/have an abortion without being judged, or being told to accept the child as a 'gift from god' or 'good from evil'.

it might be relevant if we are to consider the age of the person raped, if it is someone who is 10, 11, 12, 13, or 23, 24, 29.

how they have been thought (or mind trained), my mind at the age of 13 is so different to my mind at the age of 23, when I was 13 I felt like I wanted to have the child, it is a life, but now that I am 23, I think of so many different things,

how my decision will effect me and the unborn child, truly difficult decision, depending on how old you are this could be very important,

while at a young age you may be told what to do (and agree at the time)

it is not so easy to make the call (for want of a better word) because you know this is a new life who knows nothing of how they were created and with your love would be a beautiful human.

UCDVet

vicwatson wrote: »

This guy is completely deluded

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1024/breaking28.html

My favourite line in the story is

I actually like this guy. I can respect people who are logically consistent in their beliefs. I *hate* people who claim one thing and then immediately turn around and claim a contradictory belief as it suits them.

If someone believes in an all powerful God, like Christians/Jews/Muslims and a bunch of others - you pretty much HAVE to accept that everything in God's will. If it wasn't God wouldn't allow it. The fact that X happens means God wanted X to happen.

Hence the famous, 'God works in mysterious ways'.

If you claim to believe in a Christian style God - like the majority of Irish do - you believe that God COULD stop any rape, crime, illness or tragedy. The natural extension to that is that rape, along with pregnancy from it, along with cancer, and birth defects and natural disasters are all the will of God.

Eutow

philologos wrote: »

I never said rape was good for the umpteenth time if you care to listen. I said good can come out of evil.

Okay, you believe good things can come from evil, even from something as horrific as rape. You obviously believe that abortion is "evil", so if a woman chooses to abort a child do you consider that good can come out of this act? By your logic you should.

Also, what about a miscarriage? Miscarrriages happen all the time and would be higher percentage wise I assume than the number of women undergoing abortions. So, assuming God planned for that to happen, God is now commiting abortions on people, an evil act in your eyes. That would make God evil then wouldn't it?

hatrickpatrick

Didn't even need to click the link to know this was a comment from a US Republican.

Funniest part is that tomorrow morning they'll be attacking Obama's "big government" and in the afternoon they'll be trying to pass more legislation restricting the sexual freedom of people all over the US in one way or another. If they're not going on about abortion it's contraception, internet porn, gay marriage, you name it.

For a so-called "pro freedom, anti big government" party they're an absolute shower of hypocrites.

jill_valentine

Bear in mind, more than one of this chap's colleagues - men old enough to be married and have children of their own - believe that a woman's body can prevent pregnancy during a "legitimate" rape. So, according to that logic, getting pregnant after a rape is both God's will, and at least partly due to the woman's consenting on some level by failing to do her duty and magically Shut That Down.

If and when their viewpoint is borne out in law, it means that in the 30-odd states which allow rapists to seek paternal access rights, the victims of these crimes could be legally shackled to their attackers for 18 years after the "miracle" occurred. Boggles the ****ing mind, to be honest.

phoenix999

Another GOP caveman. If Americans are dumb enough to elect flip flopper Romney as President, then they deserve the **** storm that will follow.

Eutow

jill_valentine wrote: »

Bear in mind, more than one of this chap's colleagues - men old enough to be married and have children of their own - believe that a woman's body can prevent pregnancy during a "legitimate" rape. So, according to that logic, getting pregnant after a rape is both God's will, and at least partly due to the woman's consenting on some level by failing to do her duty and magically Shut That Down.

If and when their viewpoint is borne out in law, it means that in the 30-odd states which allow rapists to seek paternal access rights, the victims of these crimes could be legally shackled to their attackers for 18 years after the "miracle" occurred. Boggles the ****ing mind, to be honest.

It's frightening to think about. Not only is a raped woman that got pregant from the rape told "don't worry, a good thing came from it" but she will also be told that "you consented on some level because you got pregnant" and you did not "Shut That Down".

Also, if God plans for a raped woman to be come pregnant it kind of goes against religious people's view about the "Traditional Family".

Chuck Stone

philologos wrote: »

There's nothing rich about my position, its looking at this in a fair manner rather than engaging in faux-outrage.

You keep trying to present an image of being fair and morally superior and you keep failing miserably.

Tell me do you subscribe to this:

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven

Matthew 5:43-48

Do you think a raped woman should love the rapist? Do you think a child of rape should love the man who raped his Mother?

Would you encourage your wife/GF to follow the above and love her rapist if she were ever unfortunate enough to be on the end of a rape?

You would like ****.

Morag

professore wrote: »

If you are a religious person (which I am NOT) this is a perfectly reasonable and logical standpoint.

Religious =|= christian/catholic

Morag

Eutow wrote: »

Also, if God plans for a raped woman to be come pregnant it kind of goes against religious people's view about the "Traditional Family".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

Frito

I was musing on the irony of an omniscient deity failing to record (for posterity) it's opposition to abortion in the instance of rape. Then I was struck by a vision of an arthritic Moses being unable to hew a tablet large enough. So I might conclude that abortion in this instance might actually be god's will. My giddy gosh, now there's a thought. It is just speculation though, isn't it Mr. Mourdock?

a posse ad esse

jaja321 wrote: »

A blessing for who? I'm not sure many rape victims would see it that way.

Maybe a blessing to the unborn child whose life has been spared. I know someone personally who was conceived through rape. Although not something to be proud of when you later find out who your biological father really was but this person was grateful to his mother who did keep him and raised him well.

Sarky

Ahaha. Oh phil, you card.

B.A._Baracus

Ahh yes. Yet another "religion" thread. Que people of faith vs atheists. :rolleyes:
While in reality it was just one man who said these comments.

K-9

a posse ad esse wrote: »

Maybe a blessing to the unborn child whose life has been spared. I know someone personally who was conceived through rape. Although not something to be proud of when you later find out who your biological father really was but this person was grateful to his mother who did keep him and raised him well.

Its a strange one alright, Thank God you were raped Mam, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

Saying rape is Gods will, or the body will naturally flush itself of the baby seems extreme to me, I'm a bit liberal like that.

philologos

Eutow wrote: »

Okay, you believe good things can come from evil, even from something as horrific as rape. You obviously believe that abortion is "evil", so if a woman chooses to abort a child do you consider that good can come out of this act? By your logic you should.

Also, what about a miscarriage? Miscarrriages happen all the time and would be higher percentage wise I assume than the number of women undergoing abortions. So, assuming God planned for that to happen, God is now commiting abortions on people, an evil act in your eyes. That would make God evil then wouldn't it?

Good question. My position doesn't require me to accept that good can come out of evil in every case. But rather good can come from evil in some cases. This is all that I have mentioned so far. I've not said that in all cases good comes from evil, I have said in some cases it can do.

In a sense, if someone has done what is evil, and is convicted of that evil and turns and repents (in the Christian understanding, turning away from sin and accepting Jesus as ones Saviour) and learns from it going forward. I think in a sense that is good coming from evil. Trials, and difficult periods in between although horrible to go through, can actually seem to have a place in the long run in ones life. Not always, but it can do.

A miscarriage is a natural event. As for what implications that can have in the long run, I don't know exactly to be honest with you. Christians would believe that disorder and chaos came into creation as a result of the fall.

Eutow wrote: »

Also, if God plans for a raped woman to be come pregnant it kind of goes against religious people's view about the "Traditional Family".

This is an interesting point. Christians recognise that there are cases where children would be without mother and a father. Christians also recognise that as a result of the fall, this world is not going to be perfect. There are ideals that people should strive to certainly, for example raising a child with a mum and a dad, but there are circumstances where this would be impossible.

However bringing a child into a world, irrespective of the circumstance of conception is giving this child the life that we've all received. No doubt in many ways it would be inherently more difficult, but I have no reason to believe that this child shouldn't be given the same opportunities as we have insofar as it is practicable.

philologos

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You keep trying to present an image of being fair and morally superior and you keep failing miserably.

No I don't actually. Christianity doesn't encourage me or anyone else to do this. In fact, I believe wholeheartedly that I've sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). As a result of doing this, I'm guilty before God. Thankfully due to God sending Jesus into the world to save me from that sin and condemnation I'm forgiven before Him. I'm not morally superior, just a wretch saved by grace (Ephesians 2:1-10).

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Do you think a raped woman should love the rapist?

Forgiveness is at the centre of the Christian faith. The Lord's prayer says that one should forgive those as they have been forgiven (Matthew 6:12). It's at the centre of Jesus' teaching that people should forgive. I believe this extends to the most horrific situations, and I understand that this is hugely difficult. As a Christian, I believe a rapist can change. That's why I wouldn't support the death penalty for those individuals. I believe they can be transformed if they choose to believe in Jesus Christ. The same is true of anybody.

Christianity is a radical faith.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Do you think a child of rape should love the man who raped his Mother?

See above.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Would you encourage your wife/GF to follow the above and love her rapist if she were ever unfortunate enough to be on the end of a rape?

I would encourage people to forgive, yes in every case. As a Christian, I have to follow Jesus, even when it is unbearably difficult. I believe that He knows best considering that He is the one who was Lord over all Creation in the beginning. If I can't trust Him in the hard times, what does that say about me as a Christian?

eviltwin

I can't stand Christians talking about terrible things being part of "gods plan", I don't understand how someone can rationalise something so terrible as a rape or the death of a young child or something equally tragic.

I think rape is probably one of the worst things that can happen to a person and for a woman who finds herself pregnant as a result and who decides she wants to abort the baby then she should be able to do so without being made to feel she is gulity or somehow worse than her rapist for making that choice.

She has been through a horrific experience and should be treated with complete respect and compassion and not be judged.

philologos

eviltwin wrote: »

I can't stand Christians talking about terrible things being part of "gods plan", I don't understand how someone can rationalise something so terrible as a rape or the death of a young child or something equally tragic.

Why should these events by definition be beyond reason?

eviltwin wrote: »

I think rape is probably one of the worst things that can happen to a person and for a woman who finds herself pregnant as a result and who decides she wants to abort the baby then she should be able to do so without being made to feel she is gulity or somehow worse than her rapist for making that choice.

She has been through a horrific experience and should be treated with complete respect and compassion and not be judged.

Where have I mentioned guilt in respect to the woman, or claimed that she was "worse" than the rapist? Please point it out to me. Actually, the last thing that I as a Christian would anticipate doing if I found out that a friend or family member aborted would be to "judge" actually. If I've sinned and have been forgiven, why would I if you think about it logically?

eviltwin

philologos wrote: »

Why should these events by definition be beyond reason?

Because why does there have to be a reason? Sometimes bad things happen and there is no explanation. Having to hear someone justify the deaths of those two kids in Galway last week as being "gods will" makes me sick. I don't know why "god" would want to give a family a baby only to take it away in such awful circumstances and destroy so many lives in doing so.

Where have I mentioned guilt in respect to the woman, or claimed that she was "worse" than the rapist? Please point it out to me. Actually, the last thing that I as a Christian would anticipate doing if I found out that a friend or family member aborted would be to "judge" actually. If I've sinned and have been forgiven, why would I if you think about it logically.

I didn't mean you specifically more the people who came out with the claim a baby by rape is gods will. The implication there, as I see it, is that to have an abortion regardless of the circumstances of the pregnancy is an evil thing to do and the woman should just carry on with it because God intended her to become pregnant. I think for a woman who is going through emotional hell the last thing she needs to do is have to worry about being judged by God for doing what she feels she needs to for her own mental and emotional well being.

As for Christians judging women who have abortions, don't make me laugh. It happens all the time as anyone who cares to read the abortion threads on the religion boards can see.

curlzy

jill_valentine wrote: »

Bear in mind, more than one of this chap's colleagues - men old enough to be married and have children of their own - believe that a woman's body can prevent pregnancy during a "legitimate" rape. So, according to that logic, getting pregnant after a rape is both God's will, and at least partly due to the woman's consenting on some level by failing to do her duty and magically Shut That Down.

If and when their viewpoint is borne out in law, it means that in the 30-odd states which allow rapists to seek paternal access rights, the victims of these crimes could be legally shackled to their attackers for 18 years after the "miracle" occurred. Boggles the ****ing mind, to be honest.

OH FFS, I really really wish I didn't know that. Please someone tell me this is incorrect? I mean that's beyond evil, we'll have to make up a new word, a word that sums up being tied to your rapist for 18 years after the "blessing". Honestly, f*ck people and f*ck this pl*net.

Leftist

philologos wrote: »

Forgiveness is at the centre of the Christian faith. The Lord's prayer says that one should forgive those as they have been forgiven (Matthew 6:12). It's at the centre of Jesus' teaching that people should forgive. I believe this extends to the most horrific situations, and I understand that this is hugely difficult. As a Christian, I believe a rapist can change. That's why I wouldn't support the death penalty for those individuals. I believe they can be transformed if they choose to believe in Jesus Christ. The same is true of anybody.

Christianity is a radical faith.



See above.



I would encourage people to forgive, yes in every case. As a Christian, I have to follow Jesus, even when it is unbearably difficult. I believe that He knows best considering that He is the one who was Lord over all Creation in the beginning. If I can't trust Him in the hard times, what does that say about me as a Christian?

What if the woman who was raped wasn't christian? why should she forgive anyone based on your religious opinion?

Would you forgive a man who raped you?

philologos

Leftist wrote: »

What if the woman who was raped wasn't christian? why should she forgive anyone based on your religious opinion?

Would you forgive a man who raped you?

1. What if the woman wasn't a Christian? - Then she would have to use whatever worldview she had already adopted to make sense of it, wouldn't she? (Not that I believe that that worldview is necessarily reflective of the truth)

2. Would I forgive a man who raped me? - I would hope so. I've not said that this was easy by any means, but I would genuinely hope so because that is what Jesus has commanded of me. There's nothing in this world as powerful as forgiveness or self-sacrifice in my opinion.

g'em

philologos wrote: »

2. Would I forgive a man who raped me? - I would hope so. I've not said that this was easy by any means, but I would genuinely hope so because that is what Jesus has commanded of me. There's nothing in this world as powerful as forgiveness or self-sacrifice in my opinion.

This is why these discussions will always become so heated and so difficult, and ne'er the twain shall the two sides meet.

You are basing your views and beliefs on what your religion tells you to believe. It can be argued that it's not really your own free will. As you've said above forgiveness is "commanded of [you]" by a higher power. That's what you believe, I have no choice but to respect that. Thankfully we are allowed to hold our independent beliefs and the worst thing that happens is that we have an argy bargy on an internet forum.

There is something entirely more sinister and worrying here though that jill_valentine has alluded to. The man in the OP is a US Senate candidate. He is expressing his belief that children created by rape should not be aborted because they are a blessing, God decrees it so. Now it's no longer you, philologos, and me, g'em, having a discussion on the internet, now it's about a man who will potentially be involved in the decision making for a whole nation. This is a man potentially making decisions on the rights of women who do not share his beliefs. What he believes in a religious capacity cannot and should not become National policy. It's not what the US Constitution is built on. This is what is so utterly terrifying about the current state of US affairs. Republican are declaring that if in power they will make decisions about what a woman can or cannot do to their body according to what their religion dictates, not the woman's.

If I lived in the US should I as a woman have to adhere to the religious beliefs of a government? It's essentially asking me to put my own free will aside. Putting your own beliefs aside can you understand, in the much greater scheme of things, how the beliefs that you share with this man have such a horrifying prospective impact on 50% of the population?