FC Barcelona linked to Lance Armstrong's doping doctor

Cienciano

Tyler Hamilton was talking to Del Moral about drugs and the Dr. said "you guys take nothing in comparison to footballers".

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

I'm surprised that a lot of people sticking their head in the sand and laughing at anyone suggesting that this is happening. The sport is run by FIFA ffs, one of the most corrupt organisations going.

By changing the doping laws, their biggest fear is finding something, and then losing fans, ultimately losing money.

Does it happen? I don't know for sure, but it would be very interesting to find out.

No one is "sicking their head in the sand", just rightly laughing at the idea that taking a drug for medical reasons is the same as doping.

GavRedKing

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a common enough occurrence, especially with FIFA's track record, I doubt I'm alone in that.

What is funny is saying Messi was doping by undergoing standard treatment for a hormone deficiency.

This. ^

Bodhisopha

Dempsey wrote: »

No its not illegal but it raises several ethical issues and I dont know why people are so quick to dismiss them and/or refuse to discuss them in a mature manner. Whats to stop another club going one further with this, taking another kid with lots of potential, claim that he has some sort of medical issue, and pumping him full of all sorts of things that are legal for him to take until he turns professional. Clubs could more or less 'guarantee' a players development into a good footballer that they could recover their initial investment from. Does the 'its ethical because its legal' argument cover that sort of practice? No so why not discuss this grey area that clubs could be already exploiting in a hush hush manner?




Pretty sure he would have gotten a UCL medal posthumously if he didnt survive his treatment :pac:

Please explain how this would benefit a perfectly healthy kid in his future career as a professional footballer. Be specific, please.

folan

back to the original thread (its not actually just about Messi)

its clear that the medical centre at which Dr del Moral, banned from sport for their involvment in the cycling doping scandal, has been involved in one of the biggest football clubs in the world.

most people would see this as a somewhat suspect outfit, and wonder what, if any, implications this could have on the massive club that is Barce.

Fifa et Uefa et al aren't most people though. Will they see fit to investigate closely, or have investigated by an independent body, the involvement of these two organisations and what implications it has had on their successes and failures as a club? should such an investigation take place?

Seaneh

Much like the fact that Usain Bolt employed Angel Heredia (the man who supplied PED's to MArion Jones amongst others) for two and a half years leading up to the London Olympics, this will be swept under the carpet because it doesn't suit the authorities of either code to investigate it properly.

There is doping in football, a **** ton of it, I'd wager there is more doping in Football, NFL and NBA between them than in any other sport in the world purely based on the amount of money involved in them. Several doctors who were involved in doping in cycling and athletics are on record as saying they worked with elite footballers and NFL stars (Angel Heredia for one).

norrie rugger

ScienceNerd wrote: »

One is used to gain an unfair advantage, the other is used to ensure normal growth development.

World of difference.

I do not get this though.

Messi is a genetically gifted footballer but not physically big enough to play.
Why is he allowed treatment to combat his genetic disadvantage, in stature?

Should a guy that is the perfect build, for football, be allowed to get muscle developing treatment, to combat his low genetic stamina/speed levels?

Seaneh

norrie rugger wrote: »

I do not get this though.

Messi is a genetically gifted footballer but not physically big enough to play.
Why is he allowed treatment to combat his genetic disadvantage, in stature?

Should a guy that is the perfect build, for football, be allowed to get muscle developing treatment, to combat his low genetic stamina/speed levels?

it's not just a disadvantage though, he had an actual deficiency which can cause medical problems like osteoporosis and serious heart development problems, it wasn't just to give him a boost in his height.

That said, I honestly don't think Barca gave a ****e about his health and were just using it as a way of helping themselves by increasing their chances of producing a player good enough to play for the first team.

Pro. F

Cruyff's total footballing team's from the 70s were drugged up to their eyeballs apparently. I think it was their coach who later came out and told all. I read it in Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid but I can't find anything online to link to.

Their pressing style of defence was reliant on all sorts of drugs to keep up the crazy work rate. Now Cruyff works with Barca, they defend in a similar way and they have an association with an outed doping doctor. Just another sordid doping story from the beautiful game.

astrofool

What Messi got was medical treatment, and he should have got it, by Barcelona or otherwise.

However, if a country were found to go to the Olympics with an athlete who'd been taken HGH previously, even if for a hormone deficiency, they likely would not have been allowed compete.

The problem being who regulates what a deficiency is, 5% below, 10% below, and what the top up should be, did Barca only give him the bare minimum, or did they increase his levels beyond normal.

SantryRed

Seaneh wrote: »

it's not just a disadvantage though, he had an actual deficiency which can cause medical problems like osteoporosis and serious heart development problems, it wasn't just to give him a boost in his height.

That said, I honestly don't think Barca gave a ****e about his health and were just using it as a way of helping themselves by increasing their chances of producing a player good enough to play for the first team.

Obviously.

The_Kew_Tour

Cienciano wrote: »

Tyler Hamilton was talking to Del Moral about drugs and the Dr. said "you guys take nothing in comparison to footballers".

When he was referring to footballers it was not American football by any chance? I'm not saying that it just might been different code

Dempsey

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Please explain how this would benefit a perfectly healthy kid in his future career as a professional footballer. Be specific, please.

Increasing anyone's training capacity and shortening their recovery time would be useful in any sport.

Seaneh

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

When he was referring to footballers it was not American football by any chance? I'm not saying that it just might been different code

Why would a spanish doctor be talking about american football?
And nobody called american football players "footballers"

Bodhisopha

Dempsey wrote: »

Increasing anyone's training capacity and shortening their recovery time would be useful in any sport.

As a youngster who has not yet turned pro? Not really, no, the physical demands are far less that of a professional. Try again.

The_Kew_Tour

Seaneh wrote: »

Why would a spanish doctor be talking about american football?
And nobody called american football players "footballers"

Ok

Dempsey

Bodhisopha wrote: »

As a youngster who has not yet turned pro? Not really, no, the physical demands are far less that of a professional. Try again.

You boost the player before he turns pro so that it benefical whilst he is pro. Are you really trying to make out that a 16 y/o newly turned pro player built like a 18-20 y/o with a similar training capacity to a 18-20 y/o isnt more useful than a 16 y/o with the training capacity of a typical 16 y/o? There is an advantage and clubs can make millions from it much clubs and players can make more money in fees and wages by simply lying about a players actual age.

norrie rugger

Seaneh wrote: »

it's not just a disadvantage though, he had an actual deficiency which can cause medical problems like osteoporosis and serious heart development problems, it wasn't just to give him a boost in his height.

That said, I honestly don't think Barca gave a ****e about his health and were just using it as a way of helping themselves by increasing their chances of producing a player good enough to play for the first team.

I have a deficiency in skill, should I be able to increase that through "Treatment"

Bodhisopha

Dempsey wrote: »

You boost the player before he turns pro so that it benefical whilst he is pro. Are you really trying to make out that a 16 y/o newly turned pro player built like a 18-20 y/o with a similar training capacity to a 18-20 y/o isnt more useful than a 16 y/o with the training capacity of a typical 16 y/o? There is an advantage and clubs can make millions from it much clubs and players can make more money in fees and wages by simply lying about a players actual age.

Your fear is that teams will lie about perfectly healthy kids having hormone deficiencies so they can administer them treatment that can have multiple negative side effects, simply to boost their training capacity as non professionals? For you this all boils down to training capacity at the age they turn pro, when they are likely to be playing less games than at any other stage of their professional career? Have i got that right?

Sounds ridiculous to me.

Dempsey

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Your fear is that teams will lie about perfectly healthy kids having hormone deficiencies so they can administer them treatment that can have multiple negative side effects, simply to boost their training capacity as non professionals? For you this all boils down to training capacity at the age they turn pro, when they are likely to be playing less games than at any other stage of their professional career? Have i got that right?

Sounds ridiculous to me.

It can be any condition, not just hormone deficiencies. How many footballers & rubgy players have the special dispensation to use asthma inhalers and how many actually need these inhalers? The use of restricted substances is well abused in professional sport, why not banned substances. You think they give a shít about the ethics when there when you are talking about millions of pounds at stake? No chance, what they tell the media and public is a PR exercise.

Francie Barrett

Seaneh wrote: »

There is doping in football, a **** ton of it, I'd wager there is more doping in Football, NFL and NBA between them than in any other sport in the world purely based on the amount of money involved in them.

When you look at the likes of Xavi, who plays 60-70 games a year, you have to wonder. When he plays he usually covers the most amount of ground out of any player on the field with an average of 12km a game. Not only that, but he plays more games than other top midfielders (Pirlo, Schweinsteiger, Gerrard, etc.) while simultaneously running them into the ground.

If Xavi hasn't been involved in doping, then he is one of the most incredible athlete's to ever kick a football.

noodler

Des wrote: »

Was Eric Abidal's cancer treatment "performance enhancing"

With it - Champions League winner
Without it - Dead

What you call a "slam-dunk" post!



Seriously though, I guess this boils down to the fear that certain drugs will be used under the guise of obscure medical issues in order to justify them.

If Messi was just a small child then he shouldn't (imo) have been given hormones, if he had a genuine deficiency as we are led to believe (but I'd wager cannot prove) then fair enough.

5starpool

The whining and paranoia in this thread is hilarious.

mitosis

folan wrote: »

back to the original thread (its not actually just about Messi)

its clear that the medical centre at which Dr del Moral, banned from sport for their involvment in the cycling doping scandal, has been involved in one of the biggest football clubs in the world.

most people would see this as a somewhat suspect outfit, and wonder what, if any, implications this could have on the massive club that is Barce.

Fifa et Uefa et al aren't most people though. Will they see fit to investigate closely, or have investigated by an independent body, the involvement of these two organisations and what implications it has had on their successes and failures as a club? should such an investigation take place?

Be careful what you wish for. Anyone who would see Barcelona examined for evidence of doping should consider where it will leave their own club. FIFA and Uefa have too much at stake to instigate an investigation. Consider the money that clubs/associations will lose if and when football doping culture is exposed.

Seaneh

Francie Barrett wrote: »

When you look at the likes of Xavi, who plays 60-70 games a year, you have to wonder. When he plays he usually covers the most amount of ground out of any player on the field with an average of 12km a game. Not only that, but he plays more games than other top midfielders (Pirlo, Schweinsteiger, Gerrard, etc.) while simultaneously running them into the ground.

If Xavi hasn't been involved in doping, then he is one of the most incredible athlete's to ever kick a football.

Most matches he looks ****ed after about the 65th minute, in fairness...

The_Kew_Tour

mitosis wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for. Anyone who would see Barcelona examined for evidence of doping should consider where it will leave their own club. FIFA and Uefa have too much at stake to instigate an investigation. Consider the money that clubs/associations will lose if and when football doping culture is exposed.

Cant agree with that. Why should cheats be left get away with something just cause it might ruin a good image?

I be disgusted if a player from team I supported was found taking performance enhancing drugs.

Predalien

Francie Barrett wrote: »

When you look at the likes of Xavi, who plays 60-70 games a year, you have to wonder. When he plays he usually covers the most amount of ground out of any player on the field with an average of 12km a game. Not only that, but he plays more games than other top midfielders (Pirlo, Schweinsteiger, Gerrard, etc.) while simultaneously running them into the ground.

If Xavi hasn't been involved in doping, then he is one of the most incredible athlete's to ever kick a football.

Football isn't an endurance sport and 12km over 95 mins isn't particularly amazing. Also Gerrard shouldn't be grouped with Pirlo and Schweinsteiger!

folan

mitosis wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for. Anyone who would see Barcelona examined for evidence of doping should consider where it will leave their own club. FIFA and Uefa have too much at stake to instigate an investigation. Consider the money that clubs/associations will lose if and when football doping culture is exposed.

id be more than happy to see the same level of investigation brought to City.

and tbh, i would have assumed that most fans would share my view about their clubs. i would prefer cheats to be found.

Kolo had a nice hefty ban for being daft and taking a banned substance. rightly so.

Francie Barrett

Predalien wrote: »

Football isn't an endurance sport and 12km over 95 mins isn't particularly amazing.

Plays more games than other top midfielders and covers more distance over 90 minutes. If you are not impressed, then all the other top midfielders in the world are lazy and unfit, right?

Predalien wrote: »

Also Gerrard shouldn't be grouped with Pirlo and Schweinsteiger!

dreamers75

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I be disgusted if a player from team I supported was found taking performance enhancing drugs.

What if it turned out all of them did with or without their knowledge?

folan

dreamers75 wrote: »

What if it turned out all of them did with or without their knowledge?

as in they had been secretly drugged by the management?

pretty bond-eske, but i see your point.

Turtwig

Mother of God!

I was on ocular steroids for years when I was younger. Without them I'd likely have been left blind in one eye. Leo Messi's treatment wasn't for a performance enhancement reasons it was to give him a shot at the same quality of living as the rest of us.
The fact he prospered into a very good footballer has little to do with the treatment for a deficiency. It's a bit like feeding him vitamin C supplements if he had a nutrient absorption deficiency and then claiming because he didn't get his Vitamin C naturally that he could be viewed in the same light as people who doped for performance reasons. Jeez.

folan

Jernal wrote: »

Mother of God!

I was on ocular steroids for years when I was younger. Without them I'd likely have been left blind in one eye. Leo Messi's treatment wasn't for a performance enhancement reasons it was to give him a shot at the same quality of living as the rest of us.
The fact he prospered into a very good footballer has little to do with the treatment for a deficiency. It's a bit like feeding him vitamin C supplements if he had a nutrient absorption deficiency and then claiming because he didn't get his Vitamin C naturally that he could be viewed in the same light as people who doped for performance reasons. Jeez.

and for other players who possibly take performance enhancing drugs on the Barcelona squad, say the likes which Dr del Moral supplied to some cyclists with, seeing as his center is linked with the club? should the whole situation not be investigated before we assume its just a Messi witch hunt?

clubberlang12

Does anyone here actually have access to Messi's medical records? Does anyone know the extend of his deficiency? Does anyone know the levels of HGH he was prescribed? I would hazard my extremely small wage that the answer to this is a convincing no to all the above.

The only thing that is ridiculous in this thread is the tit-for-tat going on. Yes, some people are making very vague points with regard Messi. Some have made some very good points. That goes for either side of the debate. That somehow certain posters here seem to be the authority on everything medical about Messi is laughable.

My opinion is this. Why did Barcalona pay for his medical treatment? Who benefited the most? Has it being against set regulations? No. Is there an ethical question to answer about this approach? Yes, i believe there is? People comparing Messi getting HGH treatment and putting it on the same level as cancer treatment or the possibility of nearly going blind need to get a reality check here. Would Messi have survived without the treatment? I would think that is an emphatic yes. Would someone with cancer survive without treatment? I'll let ye answer that.

I'm not concerned about Messi as a sole target here. I'm more concerned about the widespread approach to doping in football. Some people here seem to be burying their heads in the sand if they do not think that it is rife in one of the most financially motivated sports in the world. The attitude that it is wrong in other disciplines but isn't wrong in soccer is a sad, sad view to have on it. Is it any wonder that one of the most corrupt agencies in sport oversee possibly the most laxy-daisy overseeing of drug testing procedures in the world of sport says it all despite calls for it to fall in with other sports testing procedures.

Bodhisopha

Dempsey wrote: »

It can be any condition, not just hormone deficiencies. How many footballers & rubgy players have the special dispensation to use asthma inhalers and how many actually need these inhalers? The use of restricted substances is well abused in professional sport, why not banned substances. You think they give a shít about the ethics when there when you are talking about millions of pounds at stake? No chance, what they tell the media and public is a PR exercise.

Why bother lying about a condition if you can't keep treating him for his "condition" once he turns pro? If you're going to be dishonest why not keep it under wraps and give a player banned substances throughout his career?

dfx-

5starpool wrote: »

The whining and paranoia in this thread is hilarious.

Richard Hillman will be along again soon to tell us once more about how genetically and culturally superior Madrid is..

And wait until the_monkey sees the thread, he has probably prepared a dossier going back years. :pac:

Turtwig

clubberlang12 wrote: »

My opinion is this. Why did Barcalona pay for his medical treatment? Who benefited the most? Has it being against set regulations? No. Is there an ethical question to answer about this approach? Yes, i believe there is? People comparing Messi getting HGH treatment and putting it on the same level as cancer treatment or the possibility of nearly going blind need to get a reality check here. Would Messi have survived without the treatment? I would think that is an emphatic yes. Would someone with cancer survive without treatment? I'll let ye answer that.

Medicine isn't about survival. It's about quality of life. Messi would have probably survived, but he'd have been more prone to serious health issues than he is now. Both mental and physically, leaving aside his footballing success - let's assume he didn't make it as a footballer, he'd likely be a in very bad place if it wasn't for the treatment he received.

I don't doubt for one second doping is happening in football and it might be that Messi himself is doping. But attacking the HGH treatment angle of this is unfair on all those who go through such treatments just to improve their quality of life. The tone I get from people's objections here is that going for treatments is unnatural unless it aids in survival. That belies a total ignorance in medicine. Next time you get sick before a sporting event don't take any medications. That seems what people are suggesting here. Which is mind boggling to say the least.

(And yes you can survive cancer without treatment too. It's rare but it does happen.)

ArmaniJeanss

folan wrote: »

and for other players who possibly take performance enhancing drugs on the Barcelona squad, say the likes which Dr del Moral supplied to some cyclists with, seeing as his center is linked with the club? should the whole situation not be investigated before we assume its just a Messi witch hunt?

Is this not a massive leap, suddenly its become 'his' clinic which was linked with the club?

As I understand it the doctor was just another consultant at said Valenica based clinic. The fact that Barcelona (and presumably Valencia, Levante and other Spanish sports stars) would have used this clinic is flimsy grounds for starting an investigation.

clubberlang12

Jernal wrote: »

Medicine isn't about survival. It's about quality of life. Messi would have probably survived, but he'd have been more prone to serious health issues than he is now. Both mental and physically, leaving aside his footballing success - let's assume he didn't make it as a footballer, he'd likely be a in very bad place if it wasn't for the treatment he received.

I don't doubt for one second doping is happening in football and it might be that Messi himself is doping. But attacking the HGH treatment angle of this is unfair on all those who go through such treatments just to improve their quality of life. The tone I get from people's objections here is that going for treatments is unnatural unless it aids in survival. That belies a total ignorance in medicine. Next time you get sick before a sporting event don't take any medications. That seems what people are suggesting here. Which is mind boggling to say the least.

(And yes you can survive cancer without treatment too. It's rare but it does happen.)

But how do you know the extend of his deficiency? This is my point. People crying out about him having a quality of life because of it. You simply don't know the quality of life he may have had without treatment. I'm not attacking anyone receiving treatment for any illness. IT should be their right to receive it. But the ethics of this is why did Messi receive it? We all know why. He was an extremely talented young boy. Did Barca do it as a token of goodwill? No. Does it go on with other young boys at other clubs? I would think yes. Is it because of Messi's profile that it attracted attention? Of course it is.

folan

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Is this not a massive leap, suddenly its become 'his' clinic which was linked with the club?

As I understand it the doctor was just another consultant at said Valenica based clinic. The fact that Barcelona (and presumably Valencia, Levante and other Spanish sports stars) would have used this clinic is flimsy grounds for starting an investigation.

maybe you think its a massive leap. but there are many, myself included, who dont think it is, and have suspicions about doping in football in general. this is a link that is a little too close for comfort to the top teams in Spain.

especially when he is described as

On the official website of the sports and medical centre at which Dr Luis García del Moral has been based, it is claimed that as well as working with Armstrong, Del Moral had also been a “medical adviser” to Barcelona and Valencia football clubs.

so it seems the clinic is claiming him, and pimping the fact that he had been involved in the two teams.

Seaneh

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Is this not a massive leap, suddenly its become 'his' clinic which was linked with the club?

As I understand it the doctor was just another consultant at said Valenica based clinic. The fact that Barcelona (and presumably Valencia, Levante and other Spanish sports stars) would have used this clinic is flimsy grounds for starting an investigation.

The link isn't just to the clinic, it's directly to the doctor.

bohsman

clubberlang12 wrote: »

But how do you know the extend of his deficiency?

Because it was prescribed. Nobody here is in a position to second guess medical advice given years ago.

mitosis

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Cant agree with that. Why should cheats be left get away with something just cause it might ruin a good image?

I be disgusted if a player from team I supported was found taking performance enhancing drugs.

You misunderstand me. I'm all for clearing the dopes out, but can you really see the associations killing off a good thing? I'm getting at the Barcelona haters here who'd have them examined without considering their own club will be just as exposed.

Strange that while the Dutch and Italians have had multiple cases, the only doping suggestion I can think of in English football is a player missing a test and a player getting caught as soon as he moved to another league? It's even more suspect than a lot of players being caught.

Dempsey

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Why bother lying about a condition if you can't keep treating him for his "condition" once he turns pro? If you're going to be dishonest why not keep it under wraps and give a player banned substances throughout his career?

The risk to the club is minimal because legal=ethical in sport

clubberlang12

bohsman wrote: »

Because it was prescribed. Nobody here is in a position to second guess medical advice given years ago.

Is this the level this thread has fallen to? "Because it was prescribed". Wow. So any prescription given by any doctor or medical practitioner can not be queried?Because of course, nothing sinister like that has ever been done before!

ArmaniJeanss

Seaneh wrote: »

The link isn't just to the clinic, it's directly to the doctor.

Whats the actual link to the doctor?
I've seen it alleged on twitter that the doctor was associated with Barcelona in some capacity, but no actual evidence of this.

dreamers75

dreamers75 wrote: »

What if it turned out all of them did with or without their knowledge?

I can imagine Fergie now, sneaking into Giggs and Beckhams rooms on away trips spiking their water with the latest high tech steroids.

Jernal

Jernal wrote: »

Mother of God!

I was on ocular steroids for years when I was younger. Without them I'd likely have been left blind in one eye. Leo Messi's treatment wasn't for a performance enhancement reasons it was to give him a shot at the same quality of living as the rest of us.
The fact he prospered into a very good footballer has little to do with the treatment for a deficiency. It's a bit like feeding him vitamin C supplements if he had a nutrient absorption deficiency and then claiming because he didn't get his Vitamin C naturally that he could be viewed in the same light as people who doped for performance reasons. Jeez.

Hey don't be upsetting the tinfoil hat crowd /doctors in the thread!

bohsman

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Is this the level this thread has fallen to? "Because it was prescribed". Wow. So any prescription given by any doctor or medical practitioner can not be queried?Because of course, nothing sinister like that has ever been done before!

Sorry, didn't realise this was the conspiracy theories forum. Maybe Barca were spraying the stuff out in chemtrails to give all Catalans a sinister advantage but Messi would have missed out from the years he was in Argentina so they had to give him extra. His height despite having taken the stuff would tell me he probably did need it but I'm not a doctor so don't want to speculate.

Dempsey

rarnes1 wrote: »

I can imagine Fergie now, sneaking into Giggs and Beckhams rooms on away trips spiking their water with the latest high tech steroids.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18887653

"Yea, yea, dont mind the tang its multivitamin water!" :pac:

dagdha

Messi was recieving the treatment when he was still in Argentina but his club at the time could'nt afford to keep the treatment up, his father was working two jobs at the time trying to earn as much money so that they could keep the treatment going but they could'nt afford it. That's when Barcelona came in and agreed to pay for the treatment as they could see the talent he possessed, other clubs looked at him aswell but they were'nt convinced.

Barcelona obviously got a great player and they could see potential but I'm sure they did'nt think he was going to become possibly the best player in the history of the game. The way some posters are talking in this thread it's as if Barca kidnapped him and injected him against the will of him and his parents. Ask any kid if they would like to go to one of the best football academies in the world with the chance of playing for one of the best teams in the world while getting his medication paid for and they would jump at the chance.

Barcelona were doing it for their benefit as they were potentially getting a first team player down the line but they still made a gamble just like every club which scout youth players for their academy, some kids make it and the vast majority don't.

It was a win win situation for the Messi family, their son might make it as a professional player and worst case scenario he has his medical bills paid for by the club taking the expense for the medical bills off the family.

Barcas gamble paid off, they got a world class player and Messi gets paid handsomely for it.