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Responsibility of parents, Warning, Some of the Q's are unpleasent
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25-10-2012 3:00pm#1Following a tread i had in after hours, i am courious to know what your parents fourm think about this statement.
Parents should be held accountable for the actions of their children, drawing the line at about the mid teens, regardless of the cause of their behaviour! This is my opinion! I want your own opinion, not just a back lash to mine!
ie.
If my child breaks your window accidently or on purpose i am held accountable to pay for the damages.
If my child is a bully in school it is up to me to fix the problem before it gets out of control and that other parents should be able to approch me about the issue and make sure it is resolved.
Do you feel that these things are my resposibility?
If so you you think that if a child were to rape/sexually abuse another child should the parent also be held accountable for that?
And if that child were to be abused by another indivudal, neighbour/friend/family/priest should the parent of that child, been a given that they(the parent) were not the abuser, also be accountable for not being aware of it happening?
Do you think you would notice that something was up with your child?
Would you see the warning sign?
Just so you know i am a parent myself and i feel that my childrens behaviour are a reflection on myself, good or bad, and i feel that i am responsible for the actions of my children. My children have not done these things, a story in newspaper has brought these things to mind!0
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Absolutely. If a child is involved in anti-social behaviour then the parents should be made to pay for it, the law cannot punish a child, a parent can.0
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Some parents don't have the skills to control children,whether their own fault or not.
Certainly parents have a responsibility in working towards reconciliation, restitution, prevention of known behaviours, etc.0 -
I'd agree to an extent.
If my child breaks a window I will of course pay for it because its the right thing to do. I would expect a parent to do the same for me. I don't blame the parent though, could be an accident, could be a prank that went wrong, could be a brat of a child who did it on purpose but blaming the parent isn't going to make that child change overnight.
Re the rape case you refer to I think there is a lot more possibly going on than "bad parenting"...bad parents don't usually raise rapists. Speaking as someone with a sibling who committed a sex offence I can say that his upbringing was the exact same as mine and the rest of my siblings. We all grew up to be decent human beings, he didn't. I think its more to do with something that just didn't form properly in his brain rather than my parents.0 -
I don't want to have to tip toe around the conversation, but i am aware that this isnt the after hours fourm where we can be underhand in our remarks and it is a controversial subject so,
Im going to put it out there that "most" of the children who commit crimes come from the lower class of society. By that i mean parents who are alcoholics, drug abusers, or just plain not intrested in their children etc. Thats for lack of a better term that i can think of right now, so a minority would be like your brother i think Eviltwin.
I can look up statistics if you like as i am only assumeing this but i imagine i would be right!
Not that that has any relevance to the conversation i suppose!
Would you agree tough, that other than being born with a mental defect that children are mainly infulenced by there immidate family/ guardians?0 -
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I'm agreeing that parents/guardians have a huge influence in a child's life. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.0
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Im going to put it out there that "most" of the children who commit crimes come from the lower class of society. By that i mean parents who are alcoholics, drug abusers, or just plain not intrested in their children etc.
I'm going to put it out there that you are a shameless snob and completely ignorant that alcoholics, drug abusers and "bad" parents come from all walks of life.
You got your answers on the other thread you started - how many replies will it take this time before you realise that parents can't always be held accountable. Still, at least this time you're not calling for them to be jailed :rolleyes:0 -
I'm going to put it out there that you are a shameless snob and completely ignorant that alcoholics, drug abusers and "bad" parents come from all walks of life.
You got your answers on the other thread you started - how many replies will it take this time before you realise that parents can't always be held accountable. Still, at least this time you're not calling for them to be jailed :rolleyes:
I never made any reference to where the parents came from? So what if you think im a snob, im not any of the above because i was rared well by my parents and have been fortunate to have a decent life which has not caused me to become any of the above. The statement had nothing to do with the why there are bad parents, just that there are!
And i did not hide the fact that i already had another tread runing of a simular nature either, this is different because it is directed a different way and at a different audience, and i was trying to be a little more sensitive which you spoiled be coming in and making a non relevant statement.0 -
Im going to put it out there that "most" of the children who commit crimes come from the lower class of society. By that i mean parents who are alcoholics, drug abusers, or just plain not intrested in their children etc.
I'm not so sure that this categorisation is correct. Sure, children of substance abusers living in poverty probably have it a lot worse than most and lack guidance on appropriate behaviour, but that is not to say they are the only ones that engage in criminal behaviour. Education and opportunity are very important factors in child behaviour.
Children of ordinary and wealthy substance abusers also get into trouble.
Children of ordinary and wealthy people who aren't substance abusers also get into trouble.
Part of the difference is that the trouble that children of poorer, less capable families tends to be more public and there is less ability for restitution.
People with money rarely get convicted of property crimes, simply because they can buy themselves out of the situation.0 -
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I don't want to have to tip toe around the conversation, but i am aware that this isnt the after hours fourm where we can be underhand in our remarks and it is a controversial subject so,
Im going to put it out there that "most" of the children who commit crimes come from the lower class of society. By that i mean parents who are alcoholics, drug abusers, or just plain not intrested in their children etc. Thats for lack of a better term that i can think of right now, so a minority would be like your brother i think Eviltwin.
I can look up statistics if you like as i am only assumeing this but i imagine i would be right!
Not that that has any relevance to the conversation i suppose!
Would you agree tough, that other than being born with a mental defect that children are mainly infulenced by there immidate family/ guardians?
You seem to think that only children from low class families commit crime, yes some do but children who were brought up in nice houses with respected parents also commit crime.
I would imagine if i gave you a choice of a poor kid and a rich kid and said one of them robbed an old lady you would automatically say its the poor kid because your mind is closed to the idea a well brought up kid could do such a thing.
Yes parents influence their children but sometimes the kids do not want to learn right from wrong, I know quite a few adults who came from good homes but have committed crimes.
I would never assume my kids are angels who will never do anything wrong because life has a way of disappointing us.0 -
HeyThereDeliah wrote: »You seem to think that only children from low class families commit crime, yes some do but children who were brought up in nice houses with respected parents also commit crime.
Nope i dont think that at all.
I would imagine if i gave you a choice of a poor kid and a rich kid and said one of them robbed an old lady you would automatically say its the poor kid because your mind is closed to the idea a well brought up kid could do such a thing.
No to that one too, i am very open minded when it comes to things like that.
Yes parents influence their children but sometimes the kids do not want to learn right from wrong, I know quite a few adults who came from good homes but have committed crimes.
Completely agree.
I would never assume my kids are angels who will never do anything wrong because life has a way of disappointing us.
I will not be assuming such a thing as i am well aware Karma has a way of biting us in the ass.
Like i said it was for lack of a better term and i was only useing "lower class" as a term, and not looking to upset anyone and useing, Alcoholics, drug addicts ect as an example.0 -
I don't know how you could call yourself open minded considering the posts you have made here and in the other thread.
I'm out of this thread.0 -
what do you define as a 'lower' class of society? Statistically speaking, I am a single parent , in a council estate, and my son, in his teenage years, got into trouble with the law. On the other hand, I have always worked hard, disciplined my children, provided for them, guided them, and now they are both doing well at university. So , which class would you put me in?I don't want to have to tip toe around the conversation, but i am aware that this isnt the after hours fourm where we can be underhand in our remarks and it is a controversial subject so,
Im going to put it out there that "most" of the children who commit crimes come from the lower class of society. By that i mean parents who are alcoholics, drug abusers, or just plain not intrested in their children etc. Thats for lack of a better term that i can think of right now, so a minority would be like your brother i think Eviltwin.
I can look up statistics if you like as i am only assumeing this but i imagine i would be right!
Not that that has any relevance to the conversation i suppose!
Would you agree tough, that other than being born with a mental defect that children are mainly infulenced by there immidate family/ guardians?0 -
Just so you know i am a parent myself and i feel that my childrens behaviour are a reflection on myself, good or bad, and i feel that i am responsible for the actions of my children.
I know many kind, generous, caring, trustworthy, well behaved children who have degenerate, anti-social, neglectful, criminal parents. Should we conclude that their wonderful behaviour is a good reflection on their parents? Whilst nobody can deny that parents can have a significant influence on their children, and that they must be held to some degree responsible for their children, I think many over-estimate these things.Would you agree tough, that other than being born with a mental defect that children are mainly infulenced by there immidate family/ guardians?
I'd be interested to know what you consider a relevant mental defect to be.0 -
what do you define as a 'lower' class of society? Statistically speaking, I am a single parent , in a council estate, and my son, in his teenage years, got into trouble with the law. On the other hand, I have always worked hard, disciplined my children, provided for them, guided them, and now they are both doing well at university. So , which class would you put me in?
Im going to put it out there that "most" of the children who commit crimes come from the lower class of society. By that i mean parents who are alcoholics, drug abusers, or just plain not intrested in their children etc. Thats for lack of a better term that i can think of right now, so a minority would be like your brother i think Eviltwin
Please read the treads!0 -
Miss Lockhart wrote: »I know many kind, generous, caring, trustworthy, well behaved children who have degenerate, anti-social, neglectful, criminal parents. Should we conclude that their wonderful behaviour is a good reflection on their parents? Whilst nobody can deny that parents can have a significant influence on their children, and that they must be held to some degree responsible for their children, I think many over-estimate these things.
I'd be interested to know what you consider a relevant mental defect to be.
That was in reply to Eviltwins post in which he said
"Speaking as someone with a sibling who committed a sex offence I can say that his upbringing was the exact same as mine and the rest of my siblings. We all grew up to be decent human beings, he didn't. I think its more to do with something that just didn't form properly in his brain rather than my parents".0 -
That was in reply to Eviltwins post in which he said
"Speaking as someone with a sibling who committed a sex offence I can say that his upbringing was the exact same as mine and the rest of my siblings. We all grew up to be decent human beings, he didn't. I think its more to do with something that just didn't form properly in his brain rather than my parents".
I know - I can read the thread.0 -
well that is what i considered in that particuluar instance to be a relevant mental defect.
nothing more!0 -
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I don't want to have to tip toe around the conversation, but i am aware that this isnt the after hours fourm where we can be underhand in our remarks and it is a controversial subject so,
Im going to put it out there that "most" of the children who commit crimes come from the lower class of society. By that i mean parents who are alcoholics, drug abusers, or just plain not intrested in their children etc. Thats for lack of a better term that i can think of right now, so a minority would be like your brother i think Eviltwin.
I can look up statistics if you like as i am only assumeing this but i imagine i would be right!
Not that that has any relevance to the conversation i suppose!
Would you agree tough, that other than being born with a mental defect that children are mainly infulenced by there immidate family/ guardians?
I don't have a clue about stats but you could be right. That might be though that people on lower incomes don't have the know how or funds or knowledge to know when something is wrong with their kids and get it checked out. Thats not bad parenting, its uneducated parenting but sadly some people only have their own parents as role models so that kinda puts them on a bad foot to start with. I don't blame them for that. There should be more support out there for people who maybe are struggling.
I am sure though that what makes a rapist a rapist is something in their brain. When you think about it, our brains which are these hugely complex things are formed in the womb in a very short amount of time. When you think about the things that can "go wrong" in the womb to having a special need or having a birth mark its pretty obvious there are some babies being born whose brains aren't working the way the should, perhaps they are the ones who grow up to be the serial killers/rapists etc in society.
I come from a middle class family and growing up I only ever hung out with middle class kids, I went to quite a posh school with other wealthy kids. Granted there was very little in typical anti social behaviour like joyriding, graffitti etc but I can think of a few names who are in prision now....one for fraud, one for rape, one for beating a guy so badly he is now disabled.
Ironically my sibling would consider the kind of working class kids who hang around corners drinking to be "scumbags" while he can totally rationalise what he did. I would like to think that the working class kids with a bit of intervention can aspire to more, with my sibling I don't think he will ever change. I don't think he can. Looking back there were signs early on that he might have taken this path but EVERYONE missed them, parents, family, teachers, friends....who really thinks their child is going to grow up to be rapist?
But to your original question, please tell me what good it would have done to put parents in prison?0 -
Miss Lockhart wrote: »And what mental defect is that exactly?That was in reply to Eviltwins post in which he said
"Speaking as someone with a sibling who committed a sex offence I can say that his upbringing was the exact same as mine and the rest of my siblings. We all grew up to be decent human beings, he didn't. I think its more to do with something that just didn't form properly in his brain rather than my parents".well that is what i considered in that particuluar instance to be a relevant mental defect.
nothing more!
Second time to answer that question!0 -
I don't have a clue about stats but you could be right. That might be though that people on lower incomes don't have the know how or funds or knowledge to know when something is wrong with their kids and get it checked out. Thats not bad parenting, its uneducated parenting but sadly some people only have their own parents as role models so that kinda puts them on a bad foot to start with. I don't blame them for that. There should be more support out there for people who maybe are struggling.
I am sure though that what makes a rapist a rapist is something in their brain. When you think about it, our brains which are these hugely complex things are formed in the womb in a very short amount of time. When you think about the things that can "go wrong" in the womb to having a special need or having a birth mark its pretty obvious there are some babies being born whose brains aren't working the way the should, perhaps they are the ones who grow up to be the serial killers/rapists etc in society.
I come from a middle class family and growing up I only ever hung out with middle class kids, I went to quite a posh school with other wealthy kids. Granted there was very little in typical anti social behaviour like joyriding, graffitti etc but I can think of a few names who are in prision now....one for fraud, one for rape, one for beating a guy so badly he is now disabled.
Ironically my sibling would consider the kind of working class kids who hang around corners drinking to be "scumbags" while he can totally rationalise what he did. I would like to think that the working class kids with a bit of intervention can aspire to more, with my sibling I don't think he will ever change. I don't think he can. Looking back there were signs early on that he might have taken this path but EVERYONE missed them, parents, family, teachers, friends....who really thinks their child is going to grow up to be rapist?
But to your original question, please tell me what good it would have done to put parents in prison?
Like i said in my original tread here in the parents fourm, i (IMO) would think that your family are in the smallest category of where sometimes someone takes the wrong path in life.
I am not a psychologist, so i am not going to add or presume anything about your family.
Would you mind telling what age he was when this incident happened. As my original statement was only ment to apply to children around 13 and under. I think after that age there are too many worldly and outside infulences to be taken into consideration that have nothing to do with perental guidence.
The jail arguement is in a different discussion in a different tread, nothing to do with this one as i was asking questions here, not giving opinions.0 -
Like i said in my original tread here in the parents fourm, i (IMO) would think that your family are in the smallest category of where sometimes someone takes the wrong path in life.
I am not a psychologist, so i am not going to add or presume anything about your family.
Would you mind telling what age he was when this incident happened. As my original statement was only ment to apply to children around 13 and under. I think after that age there are too many worldly and outside infulences to be taken into consideration that have nothing to do with perental guidence.
The jail arguement is in a different discussion in a different tread, nothing to do with this one as i was asking questions here, not giving opinions.
He was in his late 30's but as I said looking back there were lots of "signs", things that happened as early as his early teens that now make sense. At the time though they were put down to boys being boys, normal teenage curiousity etc. And not just by the family either, by the extended family, teachers etc.
My brother didn't just wake up one day at 35 and decide "I'm going to abuse a child today", it had been there for years, he told us that himself.
Now I would consider myself to be a fairly clued up parent but I am not so dumb as to think if my son at 8/9 wants to rape another child that he is going to act that way in front of me. There might be things that give it away but how is any parent to know what they are. We're not experts, you're not taught how to recognise your child is a psychopath along with how to change nappies or toilet train.
You're assuming the parents of these boys did something to make their sons act this way, maybe they did but I think its probably more complex than this and where is the logic is jailing the parents.0 -
He was in his late 30's but as I said looking back there were lots of "signs", things that happened as early as his early teens that now make sense. At the time though they were put down to boys being boys, normal teenage curiousity etc. And not just by the family either, by the extended family, teachers etc.
I really dont want you to think i am judging or assumeing anything about your family, like i said yours IMO would be in the small category of families who just lost someone along the way.
My brother didn't just wake up one day at 35 and decide "I'm going to abuse a child today", it had been there for years, he told us that himself.
No, i doubt very much he did however i am not here to discuss adult behaviour. Did he go to jail for his crime? there is no need for you to answer any of these questions as im sure it is a very delicate subject for you, if so someone took resposibility and that is all i am talking about. He was old enough to make his own decision in the act that he comitted and im sure no one suffered the concequences only himself (excluding the pain it caused your family)
Now I would consider myself to be a fairly clued up parent but I am not so dumb as to think if my son at 8/9 wants to rape another child that he is going to act that way in front of me. There might be things that give it away but how is any parent to know what they are. We're not experts, you're not taught how to recognise your child is a psychopath along with how to change nappies or toilet train.
You're assuming the parents of these boys did something to make their sons act this way, maybe they did but I think its probably more complex than this and where is the logic is jailing the parents.
I am not assuming anything here, and i never said anything here, in this fourm about jail as that is not what this conversation was started for.
Sorry dont really have the hang of devideing up the quotes and wrote in between yours so that is the only reason for the highlighting edit.0 -
I am not assuming anything here, and i never said anything here, in this fourm about jail as that is not what this conversation was started for.
Sorry dont really have the hang of devideing up the quotes and wrote in between yours so that is the only reason for the highlighting edit.
So how would you make the parents accountable then?0 -
So how would you make the parents accountable then?
In your brothers case only himself can be held accountable.
You have childern, if something like that happened to one or both of your children would you not then be looking for some kind of responsibility to be taken by someone?
As a child cannot be tried by a court of law one would only assume that the reason for that is because as a child they cannot be held accountable for their own actions, which lays the blame where?
Move past the priests and school teachers etc, as ive already had that onslaught from after hours, where does a childs roots begin, who is (mostly) responsible for their safety, role modeling, teaching of being a good human being.
Once again leaving out the ones who maybe just didnt develop right in the womb, as i do happen to agree with you that some just dont get off to the best start from contraception, which once again i would think is a small minority and that how the child is brought up is for the most part the major part in becoming a "normal" functioning part of society.0 -
I never made any reference to where the parents came from? So what if you think im a snob, im not any of the above because i was rared well by my parents and have been fortunate to have a decent life which has not caused me to become any of the above. The statement had nothing to do with the why there are bad parents, just that there are!
And i did not hide the fact that i already had another tread runing of a simular nature either, this is different because it is directed a different way and at a different audience, and i was trying to be a little more sensitive which you spoiled be coming in and making a non relevant statement.
TBF, you've spoiled two of your own threads by making assumptions about people who don't fit in to your lifestyle and somewhat myopic outlook.0 -
In your brothers case only himself can be held accountable.
You have childern, if something like that happened to one or both of your children would you not then be looking for some kind of responsibility to be taken by someone?
As a child cannot be tried by a court of law one would only assume that the reason for that is because as a child they cannot be held accountable for their own actions, which lays the blame where?
Move past the priests and school teachers etc, as ive already had that onslaught from after hours, where does a childs roots begin, who is (mostly) responsible for their safety, role modeling, teaching of being a good human being.
Once again leaving out the ones who maybe just didnt develop right in the womb, as i do happen to agree with you that some just dont get off to the best start from contraception, which once again i would think is a small minority and that how the child is brought up is for the most part the major part in becoming a "normal" functioning part of society.
The only person who should be held accountable is the person who is responsible for the crime. Now if it turns out the parents were neglectful in their duties there should be some santions there but jailing the parents in lieu of the child doesn't solve the problem.
I actually wouldn't like to see the kids in jail, jail is not the place for children imo but I would like to see them off our streets and in some kind of care system where they could be if possible rehabilitated.0 -
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The only person who should be held accountable is the person who is responsible for the crime. Now if it turns out the parents were neglectful in their duties there should be some santions there but jailing the parents in lieu of the child doesn't solve the problem.
I actually wouldn't like to see the kids in jail, jail is not the place for children imo but I would like to see them off our streets and in some kind of care system where they could be if possible rehabilitated.
Im delighted for your compassion but im afraid in circumstances where a heinous crime has been comitted by a child I dont believe there can be any rehabilation. So what then? Fine jailing the parents wont solve that problem.
And i also dont think adults of that nature can be rehabalitated either, im sure they have the capabality to choose wheather they repeat the crime or not but i think the compulsion (as a grown person) out ways any sence of morality for those people!
But that is only my opinion.0
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