UN to investigate civilian deaths from US drone strikes

cyberhog · 26-10-2012 5:05am #1

The United Nations is to set up a dedicated investigations unit in Geneva early next year to examine the legality of drone attacks in cases where civilians are killed in so-called "targeted" counter-terrorism operations.

Earlier this summer, Emmerson, who monitors counter-terrorism for the UN, called for effective investigations into drone attacks. Some US drone strikes in Pakistan may amount to war crimes, Emmerson warned.

Emmerson maintained that the US stance that it can conduct counter-terrorism operations against al-Qaida or other groups anywhere in the world because it is deemed to be an international conflict was indefensible.

"The global war paradigm has done immense damage to a previously shared international consensus on the legal framework underlying both international human rights law and international humanitarian law," he said. "It has also given a spurious justification to a range of serious human rights and humanitarian law violations.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/25/un-inquiry-us-drone-strikes

While it's already evident to anyone that has been following the drone attacks that Obama is a war criminal it's good to see the UN are finally getting on this.

Manic Moran · 26-10-2012 8:26am

I doubt it'll be a complete investigation. It won't get very far without the intel and strike records and I don't see any particular likelihood of all of those being made available.

smurgen · 29-10-2012 11:12am

Manic Moran wrote: »

I doubt it'll be a complete investigation. It won't get very far without the intel and strike records and I don't see any particular likelihood of all of those being made available.

Why will the U.S not release these?

nagilum2 · 29-10-2012 2:58pm

smurgen wrote: »

Why will the U.S not release these?

What would be in the US's interest to release these? It might provide Al Qaeda with information on how targets are chosen.

It is not in the US's interest to release this information at all.

smurgen · 29-10-2012 4:53pm

nagilum2 wrote: »

What would be in the US's interest to release these? It might provide Al Qaeda with information on how targets are chosen.

It is not in the US's interest to release this information at all.

if they could show that the legally target suspects would it not mean that countries in which they operate in might comply more and accomodate more for such strikes?

nagilum2 · 29-10-2012 7:50pm

smurgen wrote: »

if they could show that the legally target suspects would it not mean that countries in which they operate in might comply more and accomodate more for such strikes?

They already operate with impunity - there's no upside to releasing this info. And who is to declare legality? They would never expose themselves to such a review for zero benefit.

Be like Nutella · 30-10-2012 4:32am

The narrative we've all been told about Drone Strikes is simply not accurate.

Some facts, some links for anyone interested. Most people in my experience who debate about this whole drone thing haven't a bleedin clue about what they're talking about... sounds very condescending but having spent the last couple years reading and debating about it on forums it's just a fact so here's a couple links for anyone who would like to learn more about this sh1t before making ignorant sweeping statements... of which I'm very capable of making myself.

At this stage it's over 8 years since Drones were first used to assassinate people. Waziristan in Pakistan is where the vast majority of this 'murdering' has been going on and if you want to get your head around the data then I would advise you to just focus on Pakistan for simplicity. More than 330 so called precision strikes have blown up more than 2600 men, women, children and elderly and injured an unknown number of others in Pakistan since July 2004. That's the ballpark number you're workin with.

Obama has launched the vast majority of these strikes and personally took it upon himself to ramp up the use of drones as indefensible killing machines which put no US lives at risk... or so the story goes!
Personally I think the whole thing is shockingly illegal (if one believes that that is even important... I tend to myself but opinions vary)... the whole thing is counter productive and creates more and more hate which creates more and more problems in the future than attacks it supposedly stops or prevents. What's sickening is that it is very clearly influenced by domestic politics. It's easy as hell to do, politically and physically and nobody really knows jack sh1t about it except what we tell them so let's just fukcin do it even if it's sickeningly immoral - is kind of how it's gone. It's a very unfortunate step in the wrong direction by humanity and it has set a massively dangerous precedent to other countries and their future use of drones on their own population and abroad For Future guaranteed abuse see Russia, China, N.Korea and South American countries and don't forget to remember how much of a hypocrite you sound when you complain then.

There's been a huge body of good investigative work done in this area by various groups and individuals the most comprehensive of which IMO has been these two pieces of work below (if anyone's interested)

1) The Bureau of Investigative Journalism did this body of work... very impressive, great graphs and a great map showing exactly where each strike hit which is very informative and allows you to actually zoom in on a real strike site - read an article of a local paper.. and then go on to research the intended target and weigh up the results of the strike yourself which I've done out of curiosity fr more than 100 strikes and again and again I find the whole thing to be bonkers insane and most importantly (to me anyway).. abhorrently immoral.

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/category/projects/drones/

and

2) Just recently a joint effort between Stanford and NYU produced an excellent report on the subject (if anyone is curious to know more about the whole thing I'd recommend this one having read it in the last few days it is very clear and concise and fairly presented especially in terms of how they break down numbers being bandied about by various groups in terms of civilian casualties and the complexities involved in that phrase)

http://livingunderdrones.org/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yMOzvmgVhc

anyone who gets bitten by the Drone bug like I've been should check out this dude:

Philip G. Alston
John Norton Pomeroy Professor of Law at New York University School of Law, and co-Chair of the law school's Center for Human Rights and Global Justice.
Alston has held a range of senior UN appointments for over two decades, including United Nations Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, a position he held from August 2004 to July 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Alston

YouTube him and you'll see many talks and lectures and news interviews with this guy.. speaks very well.. knows the subject better than anyone on the planet without question and was more than willing to converse by email when I contacted him, sound guy.

Finally if I was to offer one talk to watch I would recommend this one by
Professor Christian Enemark called:

Predators, reapers and post-heroic war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLBDqy6pj28

I'll recite a quick hypothetical situation he invents to challenge you.

Imagine a drone sensor operator working inside his air conditioned blacked out 40 foot container at Creech AFB, just outside Vegas, carries out the release of a hellfire missile from his drone, flying over a target all the way over in Pakistan, and kills an entire family, including a mid level AQ logistics guy in some shack on the side of a hill in Waziristan.
Now imagine that his father seeks revenge for his sons death by traveling to the US and lobbing a grenade through the front window of that drone sensor operator's nice 3 bed home in the suburbs near Creech and kills his wife and child in an effort to kill him while he's at work.
That is no simple philosophical conundrum... hence the talk this guy gives is one of the better ones and I'd strongly recommend it, especially if you have an interest in International Human Rights Law (IHRL) or the Laws of Conflict.

Lastly, here's a link to a short film that's been doing the rounds at the festivals that is centered around the subject. Plans are in the works for a feature film to be released late next year according to the producer who emailed me last week. Could turn out to be a good film actually, apart from anything else.

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Phillip/Desktop/Unmanned%20%20%20An%20AFI%20Film.htm

(pm me if ya want more info on the above)

KyussBishop · 30-10-2012 4:44am

Good post; additionally, I was just reading this article earlier on this, which is excellent:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/25/drones-wests-terror-weapons-doodlebugs-1

Glenn Greenwald also covers drone strikes and surrounding issues regularly:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/glenn-greenwald

Be like Nutella · 30-10-2012 4:55am

and to address the post directly..

The UN has carried out extremely important and effective investigations into abuses carried out by governments in many countries for decades now which have saved lives and improved situations in many examples such as in the Philippines for instance (in terms of extra judicial killings and torture etc) and if they (the UN) take on the US head on and demand Washington's cooperation and all the relative media that result then it's possible the result could be a more limited use of drones to murder people. Am I optimistic that this is what will happen? not really, unfortunately... however... with two of its own highly respected universities producing a very damning report on the whole drone strike thing and more and more books being written on the subject and better Op Eds appearing, more often, on the subject and more forums like this one right fukcin here talkin about it in any sort of useful manner with better facts and figures becoming available as various groups mine the data out there (which takes a hell of a lot of work) then I do see there being a good chance that humanity will learn more about this robotic murder and hopefully there'll be a consensus that it's counter productive and creates more and more jihadists pushing this Arab Spring more and more towards anti-american sentiment. The single main barrier to the true popularization of this issue is people's ignorance.. on a complex subject which involves legal logic, statistics, moral consideration and military knowledge and that type of complex article or Op Ed or interest piece or news piece don't sell ads in the 6-9pm news cycle! and unfortunately that's the way the world works.

Easier if Mr Mackey could just tell Barack that

"Drones are baaaad... okay."

Chuck Stone · 30-10-2012 5:57am

Go to 12:58 to get former US Army Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson's view on how drone strikes are helping radicalise increasing numbers of people who want to attack the US.

smurgen · 30-10-2012 2:57pm

nagilum2 wrote: »

They already operate with impunity - there's no upside to releasing this info. And who is to declare legality? They would never expose themselves to such a review for zero benefit.

what makes these drone strikes different from terrorist attacks like that on the Pentagon on 9/11?

nagilum2 · 30-10-2012 3:03pm

smurgen wrote: »

what makes these drone strikes different from terrorist attacks like that on the Pentagon on 9/11?

About a million things. :rolleyes:

Manic Moran · 30-10-2012 5:03pm

Now imagine that his father seeks revenge for his sons death by traveling to the US and lobbing a grenade through the front window of that drone sensor operator's nice 3 bed home in the suburbs near Creech and kills his wife and child in an effort to kill him while he's at work.

Perhaps you need to give me the timestamp so I can get the full effect, but from your information provided, no conundrum exists.

The drone operator is acting as an identified representative of a sovereign government. Pretty much universally governments are recognised as the sole authority to commit legitimate violence outside of immediate defence issues (eg home invasions etc, self defence etc). Father of the dead sons, however, is working either (1) as an unsanctioned vigilante and thus a criminal, or (2) as an enemy combatant.

If 1), that's as far as you need to go.

If 2), then the father is failing on another matter: The drone operator appears to have been at least targetting with reasonable likelihood of success, the enemy. As evidenced by the example that they killed the AQ logistics guy they were presumably aiming for. Whether or not they took reasonable precautions to avoid additional non-combatant casualties is information not provided. There is, however, very little likelihood that the drone operator would be working from his house and so even if the father had 'declared' himself to be an enemy by deed, he would fail any question of reasonable care.

A better question would be if the father actually did target the drone operator, either once he was at home, or maybe en route home from work. Still not a conundrum. I'm sure that Americans would absolutely freak out and go ballistic about the terrorists acting on US soil etc, but from my perspective, just because I'm in the US doesn't mean that I'm not a member of an armed force engaged in conflict. Unfortunately, Americans have succumbed to a feeling of inulnerability within the US, and there is little perceived threat outside of the mandatory threat awareness briefings we have to take every year. On the plus side, the local laws in NV permit our drone operator to be armed and thus not be defenceless if attacked. Most military personnel I know in the area take advantage of these laws.

NTM

golden lane · 30-10-2012 5:13pm

it seems strange that, after 30 years of civilians being killed......and no doubt it will still go on in ireland........

that everybody outside ireland is a war criminal..........

smurgen · 30-10-2012 5:53pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Perhaps you need to give me the timestamp so I can get the full effect, but from your information provided, no conundrum exists.

The drone operator is acting as an identified representative of a sovereign government. Pretty much universally governments are recognised as the sole authority to commit legitimate violence outside of immediate defence issues (eg home invasions etc, self defence etc). Father of the dead sons, however, is working either (1) as an unsanctioned vigilante and thus a criminal, or (2) as an enemy combatant.

If 1), that's as far as you need to go.

If 2), then the father is failing on another matter: The drone operator appears to have been at least targetting with reasonable likelihood of success, the enemy. As evidenced by the example that they killed the AQ logistics guy they were presumably aiming for. Whether or not they took reasonable precautions to avoid additional non-combatant casualties is information not provided. There is, however, very little likelihood that the drone operator would be working from his house and so even if the father had 'declared' himself to be an enemy by deed, he would fail any question of reasonable care.

A better question would be if the father actually did target the drone operator, either once he was at home, or maybe en route home from work. Still not a conundrum. I'm sure that Americans would absolutely freak out and go ballistic about the terrorists acting on US soil etc, but from my perspective, just because I'm in the US doesn't mean that I'm not a member of an armed force engaged in conflict. Unfortunately, Americans have succumbed to a feeling of inulnerability within the US, and there is little perceived threat outside of the mandatory threat awareness briefings we have to take every year. On the plus side, the local laws in NV permit our drone operator to be armed and thus not be defenceless if attacked. Most military personnel I know in the area take advantage of these laws.

NTM

how would you expect the father to react to deaths of his sons and prehaps find some closure? I ask this because for me, when it comes to these drone strikes there is zero accountability. Your loved one is killed and there is nothing you can do about it.How is this legal?

smurgen · 30-10-2012 5:57pm

nagilum2 wrote: »

About a million things. :rolleyes:

Such as? I assume that the main excuse for drone strikes is that they are targetting legitimate military targets and any civilians killed are collateral damage. How is this different from ramming a plane full of innocent civilians (collateral) into the pentagon (legitimate military target)?

Jonny7 · 30-10-2012 6:53pm

smurgen wrote: »

Such as? I assume that the main excuse for drone strikes is that they are targetting legitimate military targets and any civilians killed are collateral damage. How is this different from ramming a plane full of innocent civilians (collateral) into the pentagon (legitimate military target)?

That escalated quickly.

There's an ongoing war being conducted between the Pakistan army/air force/militias and the Taliban. Tacitly, Pakistan supports these US drone strikes simply because they face something much worse in Warziristan and the fact that these strikes are more effective than any of their current methods (various offensives).

Personally, I am against the drone strikes, because they provide too much of a scapegoat and a recruitment poster, pumping kids through the Madrassas. Ironically though if the strikes stop, the problems don't get any better, and can be argued will only get worse for those in NW Pakistan.

MrMister · 30-10-2012 7:43pm

The US does “signature” drone strikes where they bomb people without even knowing who they are. Bomb and hope that someone bad died. And then they'res the "double tap" strikes where after they blindly bomb some people they wait for first-responders and family etc to come rushing in to tend to the fallen and then bomb them again. Disgusting.

They say that very few innocent civilians are killed but the US counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent. In effect, if you happen to be in an area that they decide to strike and are killed you are counted as an enemy combatant.

These American attacks that have killed untold numbers of innocent civilians are acts of terrorism. Ergo, they have, by argument , legitimised attacks on their own personnel and leadership. And so it goes, round and round. If you lost your innocent little brother or sister in an attack - would you become a militant against the country that did it? The US is creating terrorists for their children to fight so the MIC can stay bloated forever. And just like in Orwells 1984, continual war will be normalised and the people desensitised.

Jonny7 · 30-10-2012 11:10pm

MrMister wrote: »

The US does “signature” drone strikes where they bomb people without even knowing who they are. Bomb and hope that someone bad died. And then they'res the "double tap" strikes where after they blindly bomb some people they wait for first-responders and family etc to come rushing in to tend to the fallen and then bomb them again. Disgusting.

One report says 2% of deaths are militants, the other says 80%. Relatives are highly unlikely to admit any of their kin are involved with the Taliban, whereas Pakistani officials are more likely to cover up civilian deaths.

Be like Nutella · 30-10-2012 11:56pm

All the usual view points are there... the military logic, the legal bollox, the realist 'they can do what they like they're America ffs', the sweeping everybody's a terrorist stuff, and the sunshine and lolipops idealist hippy stuff....and so forth... I'm not saying anyone's wrong in what they say it's just it always goes like this and people get entrenched and nothing is really discussed because sh1t gets convoluted real fast.. and then the inevitable personal argument breaks out and...

so...

what do yee all really think of how moral drone strikes are? is it right or wrong? and in which situation is it cool to wack haji's with hellfires?.. I jest but you get the idea... who believes the US should continue to do the drone thing or not?

I personally think that drone strikes are bad because they are exactly what they are... semi-accurate assassination tools used wrongly and illegally and over-used and abused and in an incredibly and provably unaccountable manner which simply creates more fukcin hatred and drags America down the moral ladder as low as the Phoenix officer assassination program did back in nam and to compare drone strikes to other methods of warfare is not productive or logical as drone strikes are surely the most farthest we have gone away from the paradigm of swinging a stick at the other guys head... we're into a whole new ball game.. one which has no parallel and which has the capacity to be abused so badly and set such dangerous paradigms for other actors across the world as to boggle the mind in its utter blatantly short-sighted stupidity. . 2600 people blown to bits including women, children and elderly in a non-battlefield area where approx 1 million people live ... by flying robots operated by joystick from Vegas... right ranting now must stop

The type of warfare that drones allow/enable is pure wrong... has been abused and will be abused. What the US has done in Waziristan is war crimes. Obama is mostly to blame and yet I hope he wins the election.. just shows ya how fukced up this world is.

So are drone strikes moral 'enough' to do?
Do they make America or the world a safer place?

Be like Nutella · 31-10-2012 12:10am

golden lane wrote: »

sitting by a cosy fireside and assuming that the world is a nice place........

is a very naieve way to look at the world.....

true... but I don't think anyone here does.

The world is completely ****ed up and there is so much irrational based hatred which inspires actual real violence it makes ya lose faith in anything ... but that's why we think about and discuss things... even if there's never a black and white right answer.

I think Obama is a war criminal for being personally responsible for some of these strikes yet if I had lost a brother on 9/11 I can guarandamtee you I'd have another perspective.

Be like Nutella · 04-11-2012 3:53pm

" US Congressman Dennis Kucinich has said that he plans to hold a Congressional briefing on the drone programme on November 16.

In a press statement, the congressman said that the drone programme has been conducted with no oversight from Congress or any judicial body, and there has been no due process. “Congress has even been denied the right to be informed of and view the legal memos which the administration uses as its basis to justify these killings. Despite increasing calls for transparency and the legal justification from both Members of Congress and a broad range of advocacy organisations, the targeted killing through drone strikes is so routine that the Obama Administration has spent much of the past year codifying and streamlining the processes that sustain much of it, he said. "

http://tribune.com.pk/story/460517/drone-strikes-us-congressman-to-press-for-programme-details/#comment-1064269

"“Congress cannot stand idly by as these actions are being taken in the name of the American people. That is why I am hosting a briefing on Friday, November 16, 2012 to discuss the implications of our drone policy here at home, and abroad,” said the Congressman."

I'll be watching this closely - This is the first ripple from the media pressure which has resulted from the NYU/Stanford report and the spotlight on Imram Khan.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/10/25/imran-khan-interview.html

It may have been brushed under the carpet in the campaigns but after Tuesday it's open season on this drone crap... all it takes is a few reporters to take it by the teeth and focus on it. Problem is, the media are such Obama ass lickers and his drone war is his main muscle flex in the 'PR War' on Terror .. it ain't Bush doctrine Neocon strategy or anything like it (as some assert) but that's why Obama chose the drone route... in his head it keeps the game small and is politically cheap... or at least it will be until Rep Kucinich shouts about it in congress. My guess is there'll be some backroom chatting with him before he shouts it from the rafters and a shake up of the oversight situation... maybe a real 'honest' Op Ed in the Times and a slow down of strikes for a month or two like they did last christmas when that Pakistan/US troop goatfuk caused waves... but waves pass. We'll see anyway. It'll take more than Kucinich to slow down this robot murder juggernaut. (remember this is an industry worth 5 billion per year right now to US companies and heading towards 10 billion per year within next 5 years... the drone strikes are the poster child of all that lobbying and contract gettin - which the air force quadrennial review has pretty much guaranteed - the spending of that money is only going to look good when bad guys are gettin blown up in the hills of Pakistan... Obama's happy with it (or so he seems I bet he's woken up once or twice at night thinking of his own family torn to shreds by a Hellfire missile as they eat dinner)... the CIA gained size and power and funding since Obama green lighted the major ramp up of Drone War... and all those M.I.C. companies cannot stop makin money off of this thing... it's creating jobs... guaranteeing American superiority in military technology and it's taking men out of harms way in a war weary embarrassed country who fears war now as a result of Lord Cheney and that simpleton Bush's colossal mistaken adventures in the mid east. Anybody with half a brain with any knowledge about how things work in the MIC or in Washington or with the CIA knows that drones are it... they're the future - not just a part of it... drones ARE the teeth! But that don't mean we shouldn't shout about what's wrong with how they're used and what they enable mankind to do to each other easier than anything ever allowed us to do before. Watch the whites of their eyes....Point........Mouse-click...weapon release.... dead (and anyone near them... IF they're even the right target in the first place... which we'll never know because the whole fukin thing is unaccountable on a criminal and completely undemocratic level... and that is why Kucunich has an issue... I hope he nails them and gets headlines for it! How it unfolds will be a great example of how the Washington machine works.. they could silence him, quiet him, assure him, make a deal with him, mute the main papers, anything they want to achieve their goal of continuing the status quo. Once this becomes an issue... a human issue and people start to think about it (and less about domestic budgets as the campaigns finish) then the show is at risk.

Again the figures are something like this (and not a million miles off)

Approx 3000 dead
(by Hellfire missile firing robots... not one single US troop risked hhis/her life at any point during those ops... which to me is war without honour, validation, moral reason or heroism.. IMO integral to any state directed violence.. especially when the reason cited is pre-emptive defensive global war on so called terror who would put US lives at risk or carry out another 9/11 type act on the US)

Hundreds of Taliban killed/assassinated while in hiding/resting in Waziristan

About 100 AQ targets killed (and a few hundred low level AQ guys of absolutely no strategic significance bar creating blood-lust AND increasing the likelihood of future jihadist vengeance... which has already occurred many times within Pakistan and Afghanistan as a direct result of the drone strikes in Waziristan including at least 1 attempt within the US itself)

Scroll through this
http://pakistanbodycount.org/drone_attack
if you want to get up close and personal with this inhuman drone war we're all numbed to because we never see the names of the places or how many children/women/elderly died in each strike (which have happened nearly weekly for over 8 years now) It shows the numbers killed and their categorization (which isn't totally accurate but is not miles away either.... I know because I've read a number of analysis's on the collated stats)
Just quickly scroll down through them from July 2004 and you'll quickly get your first real feeling for how many strikes have killed so many people in so many places killing so many civilians. (note: there is purposeful confusion out there for what the US 'counts' as a 'combatant' in a strike site... basically any male over 15 is fair game and doesn't get toe tagged a 'civilian casualty'... google it and read an article if you doubt my facts because of my very clear bias against the use of drones in Pakistan.

Not enough people here or anywhere or journalists or news networks or politicians here and in Europe or anywhere are talking about this thing enough it's as if we just couldn't be arsed learning about what is essentially war crimes IMO (or as close to as you can get according to a huge number of respected opinions out there... all-be-it not loud enough). See ya need to spend a whole 20 mins to cop on to how this thing has gone and what the issue with it are and that's too much for most people these days. Easier to just say Muslims in whats-his-namistan are probably terrorists... Pakistan won't publically let the US do the drone strikes... but do anyway through the backdoor (partly because they haven't a choice says 'billions of dollars in aid') and Jihadists can be anywhere and they're all going to try and do another 9/11 so fuk the law... fuk morals... this is assymetric warfare Von Clausewitz global bullsh1t war on'Terror' whatever the fuk that's supposed to mean in reality.. so let's just let the US do what they want where they want when they want how they want and just complain about 'Bad' countries when they do bad stuff coz the US wouldn't do 'bad stuff'... they're the good guys right? they have all our interests at heart right? boll-ox

This thing is fuked up and there needs to be more coverage, more discussion... more oversight... more transparency... more moral debate... more go dam accountability...due process... real democratic due process as opposed to backdoor loophole assholery. If Obama has two testicles between his legs he'll own this thing and go down with it if that's what he needs to do... if he believes in it then he needs to stand up and face Kucinich and deal with reporters questions and represent 'his' personal drone war (Harold Koh, Eric Holder and Brennan and a few others are directly to blame too but the book stops with Barack.. he personally rocked the drone thing almost as his arse hit his antique oval office chair)

and yet... I still hope to god he wins on Tuesday... It's hard to reconcile Obama the decent humble compassionate guy I actually believe he is with Obama the Lord of the murderous and strategically mistaken Drone War.. such is the complexity of leadership and politics... nothing is quite what it seems and nothing is ever black n white!

Manic Moran · 05-11-2012 8:52am

which to me is war without honour, validation, moral reason or heroism

What sort of a daft argument is that?! That sort of thinking in war went out with the Pfalz D3. Do the maximum possible damage to the enemy with the minimum possible loss, using any and every legal means at your disposal. Heroism usually implies that someone screwed up in order to get into a situation that heroism is required to begin with. You can make the argument about the political liabilities of drone strikes vs their benefits, but your romantic view of warfare has little comparison to what those of us carrying a rifle might think is preferable.

Jonny7 · 05-11-2012 12:09pm

Be like Nutella wrote: »

" US Congressman Dennis Kucinich has said that he plans to hold a Congressional briefing on the drone programme on November 16.

In a press statement, the congressman said that the drone programme has been conducted with no oversight from Congress or any judicial body, and there has been no due process. “Congress has even been denied the right to be informed of and view the legal memos which the administration uses as its basis to justify these killings. Despite increasing calls for transparency and the legal justification from both Members of Congress and a broad range of advocacy organisations, the targeted killing through drone strikes is so routine that the Obama Administration has spent much of the past year codifying and streamlining the processes that sustain much of it, he said. "

http://tribune.com.pk/story/460517/drone-strikes-us-congressman-to-press-for-programme-details/#comment-1064269

"“Congress cannot stand idly by as these actions are being taken in the name of the American people. That is why I am hosting a briefing on Friday, November 16, 2012 to discuss the implications of our drone policy here at home, and abroad,” said the Congressman."

I'll be watching this closely - This is the first ripple from the media pressure which has resulted from the NYU/Stanford report and the spotlight on Imram Khan.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/10/25/imran-khan-interview.html

It may have been brushed under the carpet in the campaigns but after Tuesday it's open season on this drone crap... all it takes is a few reporters to take it by the teeth and focus on it. Problem is, the media are such Obama ass lickers and his drone war is his main muscle flex in the 'PR War' on Terror .. it ain't Bush doctrine Neocon strategy or anything like it (as some assert) but that's why Obama chose the drone route... in his head it keeps the game small and is politically cheap... or at least it will be until Rep Kucinich shouts about it in congress. My guess is there'll be some backroom chatting with him before he shouts it from the rafters and a shake up of the oversight situation... maybe a real 'honest' Op Ed in the Times and a slow down of strikes for a month or two like they did last christmas when that Pakistan/US troop goatfuk caused waves... but waves pass. We'll see anyway. It'll take more than Kucinich to slow down this robot murder juggernaut. (remember this is an industry worth 5 billion per year right now to US companies and heading towards 10 billion per year within next 5 years... the drone strikes are the poster child of all that lobbying and contract gettin - which the air force quadrennial review has pretty much guaranteed - the spending of that money is only going to look good when bad guys are gettin blown up in the hills of Pakistan... Obama's happy with it (or so he seems I bet he's woken up once or twice at night thinking of his own family torn to shreds by a Hellfire missile as they eat dinner)... the CIA gained size and power and funding since Obama green lighted the major ramp up of Drone War... and all those M.I.C. companies cannot stop makin money off of this thing... it's creating jobs... guaranteeing American superiority in military technology and it's taking men out of harms way in a war weary embarrassed country who fears war now as a result of Lord Cheney and that simpleton Bush's colossal mistaken adventures in the mid east. Anybody with half a brain with any knowledge about how things work in the MIC or in Washington or with the CIA knows that drones are it... they're the future - not just a part of it... drones ARE the teeth! But that don't mean we shouldn't shout about what's wrong with how they're used and what they enable mankind to do to each other easier than anything ever allowed us to do before. Watch the whites of their eyes....Point........Mouse-click...weapon release.... dead (and anyone near them... IF they're even the right target in the first place... which we'll never know because the whole fukin thing is unaccountable on a criminal and completely undemocratic level... and that is why Kucunich has an issue... I hope he nails them and gets headlines for it! How it unfolds will be a great example of how the Washington machine works.. they could silence him, quiet him, assure him, make a deal with him, mute the main papers, anything they want to achieve their goal of continuing the status quo. Once this becomes an issue... a human issue and people start to think about it (and less about domestic budgets as the campaigns finish) then the show is at risk.

Again the figures are something like this (and not a million miles off)

Approx 3000 dead
(by Hellfire missile firing robots... not one single US troop risked hhis/her life at any point during those ops... which to me is war without honour, validation, moral reason or heroism.. IMO integral to any state directed violence.. especially when the reason cited is pre-emptive defensive global war on so called terror who would put US lives at risk or carry out another 9/11 type act on the US)

Hundreds of Taliban killed/assassinated while in hiding/resting in Waziristan

About 100 AQ targets killed (and a few hundred low level AQ guys of absolutely no strategic significance bar creating blood-lust AND increasing the likelihood of future jihadist vengeance... which has already occurred many times within Pakistan and Afghanistan as a direct result of the drone strikes in Waziristan including at least 1 attempt within the US itself)

Scroll through this
http://pakistanbodycount.org/drone_attack
if you want to get up close and personal with this inhuman drone war we're all numbed to because we never see the names of the places or how many children/women/elderly died in each strike (which have happened nearly weekly for over 8 years now) It shows the numbers killed and their categorization (which isn't totally accurate but is not miles away either.... I know because I've read a number of analysis's on the collated stats)
Just quickly scroll down through them from July 2004 and you'll quickly get your first real feeling for how many strikes have killed so many people in so many places killing so many civilians. (note: there is purposeful confusion out there for what the US 'counts' as a 'combatant' in a strike site... basically any male over 15 is fair game and doesn't get toe tagged a 'civilian casualty'... google it and read an article if you doubt my facts because of my very clear bias against the use of drones in Pakistan.

Not enough people here or anywhere or journalists or news networks or politicians here and in Europe or anywhere are talking about this thing enough it's as if we just couldn't be arsed learning about what is essentially war crimes IMO (or as close to as you can get according to a huge number of respected opinions out there... all-be-it not loud enough). See ya need to spend a whole 20 mins to cop on to how this thing has gone and what the issue with it are and that's too much for most people these days. Easier to just say Muslims in whats-his-namistan are probably terrorists... Pakistan won't publically let the US do the drone strikes... but do anyway through the backdoor (partly because they haven't a choice says 'billions of dollars in aid') and Jihadists can be anywhere and they're all going to try and do another 9/11 so fuk the law... fuk morals... this is assymetric warfare Von Clausewitz global bullsh1t war on'Terror' whatever the fuk that's supposed to mean in reality.. so let's just let the US do what they want where they want when they want how they want and just complain about 'Bad' countries when they do bad stuff coz the US wouldn't do 'bad stuff'... they're the good guys right? they have all our interests at heart right? boll-ox

This thing is fuked up and there needs to be more coverage, more discussion... more oversight... more transparency... more moral debate... more go dam accountability...due process... real democratic due process as opposed to backdoor loophole assholery. If Obama has two testicles between his legs he'll own this thing and go down with it if that's what he needs to do... if he believes in it then he needs to stand up and face Kucinich and deal with reporters questions and represent 'his' personal drone war (Harold Koh, Eric Holder and Brennan and a few others are directly to blame too but the book stops with Barack.. he personally rocked the drone thing almost as his arse hit his antique oval office chair)

and yet... I still hope to god he wins on Tuesday... It's hard to reconcile Obama the decent humble compassionate guy I actually believe he is with Obama the Lord of the murderous and strategically mistaken Drone War.. such is the complexity of leadership and politics... nothing is quite what it seems and nothing is ever black n white!

You are aware that the Taliban and Pashtun militants kill and maim more than the drone strikes?

There are two sides to this. Which Kucinich and Imran Khan and these various select websites seem to carefully ignore.

Be like Nutella · 05-11-2012 6:01pm

Drone strikes herald the age of post-heroic war. Heroism IS important and its loss from the battlefield is sad and symbolic about how we treat the whole concept of war and how we treat the enemy. War is not nor should ever be like a computer game i.e. find the solution to win... press the button.. game over... never has been and never should be, but these drone strikes in Pakistan and other places in this 'so called' war is a completely new dehumanized strategic 'game' with absolutely no short term push back from the enemy. Fish in a barrel is not war.. it's barely more than a massacre, like 9/11 was... a massacre. There are clearly grave implications for ethics in war because this so called 'war on terror' is not a war as anybody understands it... the phrase was concocted to justify a whole range of measures. Nobody with half a brain should consider the entire globe an active battlefield in this so called 'war on terror'. This whole thing is about 'just war'... necessity and proportionality and due process. Surprise attacking 40 people in a sovereign nation with which you are not at war, using robotic weapons operated from hundreds or thousands of miles away with no risk at all to yourself using intelligence best guesses which are often wrong is nothing to do with 'just war' no matter how they try and condition us to believe it is with their phrases and terms they use.

"We few drone operators, we happy drone operators, we band of drone pilot and sensor operators 7000 miles from any so called battlefield ..."

a far cry from St Crispin's day...

Jonny7 · 06-11-2012 9:51am

Be like Nutella wrote: »

Drone strikes herald the age of post-heroic war. Heroism IS important and its loss from the battlefield is sad and symbolic about how we treat the whole concept of war and how we treat the enemy. War is not nor should ever be like a computer game i.e. find the solution to win... press the button.. game over... never has been and never should be, but these drone strikes in Pakistan and other places in this 'so called' war is a completely new dehumanized strategic 'game' with absolutely no short term push back from the enemy. Fish in a barrel is not war.. it's barely more than a massacre, like 9/11 was... a massacre. There are clearly grave implications for ethics in war because this so called 'war on terror' is not a war as anybody understands it... the phrase was concocted to justify a whole range of measures. Nobody with half a brain should consider the entire globe an active battlefield in this so called 'war on terror'. This whole thing is about 'just war'... necessity and proportionality and due process. Surprise attacking 40 people in a sovereign nation with which you are not at war, using robotic weapons operated from hundreds or thousands of miles away with no risk at all to yourself using intelligence best guesses which are often wrong is nothing to do with 'just war' no matter how they try and condition us to believe it is with their phrases and terms they use.

"We few drone operators, we happy drone operators, we band of drone pilot and sensor operators 7000 miles from any so called battlefield ..."

a far cry from St Crispin's day...

The people they are aiming for are strapping bombs onto kids. Two sides.

BlaasForRafa · 06-11-2012 5:11pm

Jonny7 wrote: »

The people they are aiming for are strapping bombs onto kids. Two sides.

And shooting girls for wanting to go to school. Your right, both sides can show incidents of extremity to show how bad the other side is.

Be like Nutella · 07-11-2012 12:54am

Everybody knows how fuked up the Taliban and AQ and their affiliates are... there's no question there. Plus, they only represent a tiny minority... so they're just straight up a bunch if diks yes .. we all know and agree with that. That has nothing to do with this.

And, if I'm totally honest if I was pres and my guys came to me asking to take out a top AQ guy on some hill in Waziristan with a drone strike on the basis that a) this guy was central to a known and imminent plot to launch an attack on the US and b) if we take him out right now we WILL stop an attack as a result then hell yeah I'd give the order once the Intel was sound and the evidence was there AND there was no risk to innocent civilians... boom... he's dead end of story... I could live with that decision.

But that's not what has been goin on... at all... in any way shape or form. There's these things called 'kill lists' and they're fuked up beyond all reasoning. There's kill lists drawn up by this department or that department or the DOD or the CIA or JSOC or SOCOM or NSA etc etc and they overlap and have gotten blown out of proportion to the point that the whole thing stinks. There's a huge lack of good intel comin from the ground in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The CIA have admitted numerous times that they completely suck at intel in these regions... especially ever since all their guys covers got blown to fuk when a laptop went missing in Iran back in 2003. They have admitted many times that their solid ground HUMINT virtually dried up years ago in this region and has been notoriously difficult to re-establish. Intel is based on sources which are very questionable and many cases proven to be worth p1ss. Guys giving intel based on feuds between familes and vendettas and for pure money making reasons coz these guys are p1ss poor. Cases of guys attaching transmitters to so called 'militants' jeeps who then get smoked by drones for no reason other than the source was asked for a target.. so he gave them one. It's a complete mess and there's no clear way of validating anything that they do let alone investigating it after the fact. The CIA took ownership of all the drones way back and have hundreds on the go right now... controlled and owned by the CIA in their budget and operated by military drone operators in a quasi very vague CIA paramilitary structure. And it's all been on purpose, not in some bullsh1t conspiracy effort but a clear and provable effort to put as many barriers as possible between the American people, their representatives in congress, the media .... and the guys that order and control these strikes.
Every time they were asked over the last 6/7 years about drone strikes the white house press guys could always deny any knowledge and pawn it off as a national security issue which they can neither confirm or deny because they could say that it was a matter of intelligence which they do not comment on and so they even denied operating any drones at all anywhere which is obviously just not good enough. Obama side stepped democratic process to do whatever he wanted to do.. I'm not making this sh1t up for giggles... it's all there to be learned watch this fukin thing and open your mind to how fuked up this whole process has been and don't blindly deny it just coz you hate bad guys... I hate bad guys too and every AQ guy ready to blow himself and innocent people up anywhere should stick a gun in his mouth and take the short cut to paradise if ya ask me.

And the problem is that every feckin drone strike (and there's been over 400!!!!!!!... four fuking hundred!!! has created more and more hatred and more jihadism. It doesn't make sense apart from anything else it may have wiped out a lot of top management in AQ but at too great a cost, morally and strategically... and the driver was not - good intentions - the driver was pure politics and blood thirsty military leadership who always love to take advantage of billions in funding for snazzy new toys and in this case these new toys ALLOWED them to do more killin, with less barriers, with less political capital than by other means. It's the old mantra... why did they do it? because they CAN! Hate cannot be destroyed with missiles, hate cannot be crushed with a boot. Hate is real and justified in some instances. 9/11 was an evil act. But so can be described so many actions of US Foreign policy and inactions. This Drone War is just not worth it.

Think about this… when I press on ‘Post’ now I do so as easy as a 22 year old releases a Hellfire from her console at Creech Air Force base which will 1 second later dismember 14 Pakistani people with an 80% chance of including some mid level completely replaceable AQ logistics guy whose two younger brothers will hate the US so venomously they will so easily be coerced into attaching a bomb vest and walking into a Tel Av-iv cinema and blowing up 61 people. Drones don't solve sh1t, they kill innocents, their use is cowardly and they are too easily abused and over used and there has been a concerted effort for years now to keep their use unaccountable and undemocratic. Hopefully congressman Kucinich asks some tough questions on November 16th in Congress and blows the lid on the stupidity and immorality of this so called 'drone war' and hopefully the notion of 'global war on terror' (fukin GWOT as they call it in Washington) can be debated and realized to be a nothing phrase which seems to allow the US to do anything they want because everything is one big fukin war... and all is fair in...

hey, look I don't expect any red meat bush-ite military minded guys here, especially the ones that served to agree with me here. I'm sure when you see the enemy and see what he has done you wish nothing more than to blow him to fuk and if there's collateral damage then so be it, fuk them all right? well I'm glad I don't think like that and I know what I'm talkin about... I couldn't give a sh1t if I've served or not I've learned about the issue, read all the reports and looked at the thing from all sides and it stinks to high heaven.
Too many strikes,
Too unaccountable,
Too un-democratic,
Too little oversight,
Too many lies,
Too many denials,
Not enough debate in congress or in the media,
bullsh1t data (i.e. one top US official actually said he believes there has not been one single innocent civilian killed by drones!!!... and manages to sleep at night...impressive).

The UN are gettin into this thing... an investigation has started, the NYU/Standford report is causing waves... check it out if you want to actually learn rather than shout 'just kill the fukers' with fingers in your ears. The information is there. Read about it watch it.. listen to it... look at the weapons, look into the industry and the lobbying for drone war in Washington... look at how Obama took this drone thing and ran with it as soon as he arrived in the white house.... hell he had a drone plan before he even sat down and he made sure to use his powers to construct a narrow unaccountable decision structure which could not be investigated or questioned. The CIA is supposed to do 'intelligence' not fukin mass assassinations using robot weapons. Last time they stepped outside their sand box was with the Phoenix program back in Vietnam... and they got completely fuked by it... and rightly so. The CIA should not control and operate military weapons... it is not their job or within their remit and what they're doing is unconstitutional once you see past the bullsh1t chinese walls they've constructed. The oversight has been non-existent. The media have had no access and it's all been straight up on purpose... very clearly purposefully intended to block any investigation or as they'd call it - arm chair criticism. I get that AQ need an ass kicking... and long may their asses be kicked but not like this. What has been going on is wrong and counter productive. And I'm not saying I have a better idea coz I fukin don't but that doesn't justify all the thousands killed by drones AND - kill/capture night operations across Afghanistan for the last 6,7,8 years... and we are talking thousands..

Give this a look if you want to get your head into this thing because this thing is more complicated than a few Op Eds or water cooler debates can make it seem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yMOzvmgVhc

I know I sound like a condescending a$$hole but honestly most haven't read sh1t all on this subject and that is essentially what I want people to do, obviously. As somebody wiser than me said, "The issue requires nuance, not absolutism."... but I genuinely think, even though it was not the intention to kill thousands and so many innocent people... that IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED and that IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG and will be shown to be so... which believe it or not actually matters i.e. mistakes becomes lessons which make you stronger IF you admit to them and work out how to do better in the future. Drones have only arrived, the next level of drone use could be even more immorally abused on an even larger scale (instead of weekly, try daily or hourly and instead of Hellfire missles try X-47b's carrying 4500 lbs of anything you fukin want... operating in swarms off carrier groups in the gulf.. and that ain't no exaggeration go google it... **** it I'll put the link down below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF_3ebtb9Hc

UN to investigate civilian deaths from US drone strikes

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