need an IRISH passport to buy alcohol??

admiralofthefleet

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Some countries might not have as tight control over the issuing of passports as Ireland has.

like Israel?

Molloys Clondalkin

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

like Israel?

Israel Has extremely tight controls over its passports so whats your troll I mean point.

Adyx

Feathers wrote: »

The point I was addressing was that someone mentioned licensees have to be wary as the cops run spot checks, and that this is a reason they mightn't take foreign passports. I wasn't saying they were being discriminated against.

Is there a provision in the act for the Gardaí to send in kids with fake IDs of different quality to see how well they stand up? There's surely a big difference between checking if a 17 year old is asked for an ID at all vs persuading a licensee that a fake ID is genuine, then prosecuting him.

Unless Gardaí are doing the second, spot checks wouldn't be a reason to refuse foreign passports.

I know you weren't saying it was discrimination, that part of my post wasn't aimed at you. I don't know if they use fake ids or just no ids, I was simply pointing out that they are allowed use kids to do the spot checks. I think I took the main point of your post up wrong though so apologies for that. At the end of the day it doesn't matter because they're not obliged to accept any passport, Irish or not, as proof of age.

RADIUS

MadsL wrote: »

Are Zimbabwean passports inferior in some way to Irish ones?

You missed the point entirely. I was pointing out that EU passports surely have to be respected here, and I would understand suspicion cast on a 3rd world passport more so than on a passport with EU written all over it.

I could have said any 3rd world country but Zimbabwe came to mind.

Cushie Butterfield

antodeco wrote: »

It's actually illegal to carry your passport around with you,

Only if it has a blade or is sharply pointed. Standard-issue passports are perfectly legal.

MadsL

Feathers wrote: »

The point I was addressing was that someone mentioned licensees have to be wary as the cops run spot checks, and that this is a reason they mightn't take foreign passports. I wasn't saying they were being discriminated against.

Is there a provision in the act for the Gardaí to send in kids with fake IDs of different quality to see how well they stand up? There's surely a big difference between checking if a 17 year old is asked for an ID at all vs persuading a licensee that a fake ID is genuine, then prosecuting him.

Unless Gardaí are doing the second, spot checks wouldn't be a reason to refuse foreign passports.

It is a defence for licensees to have a reasonable belief that the ID is genuine. The Gardai do not go around with "different quality" of IDs, and it is not the retailers business to "verify" ID. The Gardai check if ID is asked for, and if not, prosecute the failure to either ask for ID or knowingly serve underage drinkers.

RADIUS wrote: »

You missed the point entirely. I was pointing out that EU passports surely have to be respected here, and I would understand suspicion cast on a 3rd world passport more so than on a passport with EU written all over it.

I could have said any 3rd world country but Zimbabwe came to mind.

So EU passports are more "respected" in your view. Interesting.

Ellis Dee

My Irish passport expired a couple of years ago and I'll be buggered before I pay €80 to have it renewed now that the new government has taken that benefit away from us senior citizens. Instead, I travel on a Finnish identity card, which I have presented innumerable times at Dublin Airport and the Garda immigration people have never even raised an eyebrow.

It is accepted in all EU Member States and several other countries as well. If it is good enough to get into the country, then it should be good enough for some silly little cow - who is probably barely literate - selling booze in Dunne's Stores.

http://www.infopankki.fi/File/6681e869-8d14-46b7-abfe-56e4928475e1/0/Henkil%C3%B6kortti.jpg

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

seamus wrote: »

It's not illegal nor discrimination. You can't expect a local shop to accept I.D. issued somewhere else which they have no way of verifying. There's a good risk that someone could present ID claiming to be a passport from some obscure country that's totally fake.

It's nothing to do with nationality. It's to do with quality of ID. If you rocked up with your Irish driving licence you'd be refused too.

Honestly, the lengths some people go to searching for things to get offended about.

So, waht if you're a foreigner on holiday?

Richard

Ellis Dee wrote: »

My Irish passport expired a couple of years ago and I'll be buggered before I pay €80 to have it renewed now that the new government has taken that benefit away from us senior citizens. Instead, I travel on a Finnish identity card, which I have presented innumerable times at Dublin Airport and the Garda immigration people have never even raised an eyebrow.

It is accepted in all EU Member States and several other countries as well. If it is good enough to get into the country, then it should be good enough for some silly little cow - who is probably barely literate - selling booze in Dunne's Stores.

http://www.infopankki.fi/File/6681e869-8d14-46b7-abfe-56e4928475e1/0/Henkil%C3%B6kortti.jpg

Although, to be fair, I don't think you'd need it as ID for buying alcohol.

MadsL

Richard wrote: »

Although, to be fair, I don't think you'd need it as ID for buying alcohol.

I wouldn't be suprised if in 10 years everyone gets asked for ID, as they do in the US to avoid giving offence

Here's me with a grey beard having to show ID. :mad:

Assassin saphir

Ellis Dee wrote: »

My Irish passport expired a couple of years ago and I'll be buggered before I pay €80 to have it renewed now that the new government has taken that benefit away from us senior citizens. Instead, I travel on a Finnish identity card, which I have presented innumerable times at Dublin Airport and the Garda immigration people have never even raised an eyebrow.

It is accepted in all EU Member States and several other countries as well. If it is good enough to get into the country, then it should be good enough for some silly little cow - who is probably barely literate - selling booze in Dunne's Stores.

http://www.infopankki.fi/File/6681e869-8d14-46b7-abfe-56e4928475e1/0/Henkil%C3%B6kortti.jpg

What an ignorant remark to make about shop workers!
I work in an store and for years people looked down their nose at me and alot of other people that worked in retail/ service. I'm not illiterate I hold a degree and have progressed to a senior position within the company from where I started.
It amazing how many people that would have thought retail work was beneath them or for people who were a bit dim are now running in with the cvs looking for a job.

Sorry mods for going off topic but this statement made by Ellis Dee made me mad.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

It is a defence for licensees to have a reasonable belief that the ID is genuine. The Gardai do not go around with "different quality" of IDs, and it is not the retailers business to "verify" ID. The Gardai check if ID is asked for, and if not, prosecute the failure to either ask for ID or knowingly serve underage drinkers.



So EU passports are more "respected" in your view. Interesting.

I think they meant they should be respected as in they should be accepted because EU members are supposed to be treated the same, not that the passport itself is more respected.

RADIUS

RADIUS wrote: »

if it was an EU passport surely it has legal status as a valid a form of photo ID.

The issue of what is a valid form of photo ID only crops up in Ireland and the UK. All other EU countries have official ID cards so theres no messing about with other forms of id (that can be easily forged). A passport should also be acceptable, unless it was in chinese or another script, but I think they always have an english heading for the date of birth category.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Molloys Clondalkin wrote: »

Israel Has extremely tight controls over its passports so whats your troll I mean point.

They like to forge other countries passports for use in assasinations and acts of terrorism. http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-passports-used-in-Hamas-killing-by-Israel-were-forged-94687919.html

Ravelleman

My understanding of all this is that a legal grey area has essentially emerged concerning identification.

Bizarrely, if someone working in an off licence or pub sells alcohol to a minor who has shown them a passport, which appears valid but really is not, they can still be held responsible and prosecuted. If the same worker asks for a Garda Age Card, which later turns out to be forged or whatever, they can use that as a defence in court. If it had been a passport they would not have been able to rely on that.

So it appears that the Age Card takes legal precedent over the passport in matters related to alcohol. Ludicrous but such is the country we live in.

I believe this was the conclusion on the 'Beer, Wine & Spirits' forum a couple of months ago.

Feathers

Ravelleman wrote: »

My understanding of all this is that a legal grey area has essentially emerged concerning identification.

Bizarrely, if someone working in an off licence or pub sells alcohol to a minor who has shown them a passport, which appears valid but really is not, they can still be held responsible and prosecuted. If the same worker asks for a Garda Age Card, which later turns out to be forged or whatever, they can use that as a defence in court. If it had been a passport they would not have been able to rely on that.

So it appears that the Age Card takes legal precedent over the passport in matters related to alcohol. Ludicrous but such is the country we live in.

I believe this was the conclusion on the 'Beer, Wine & Spirits' forum a couple of months ago.

From what I can see, the act governing it specifically mentions both passport and drivers license as valid forms of 'age documents' as it puts it.

Do you have any references (off Boards.ie ) that show this has been overturned since? Not saying your wrong, just interested.

TBH, I think to protect the rights of people who are under 21, there should be a form of ID that shops are obliged to take, so long as the photo looks like you, hasn't expired etc. & which if turn out to be false, they won't get prosecuted.

The idea that drivers licence is specifically mentioned but most places won't take it is bizarre. If they're too easily forged it should be the problem of the government, not Dunnes Stores or anyone else.

kodoherty93

I have seen them accepting polish passports.

Tbh when I'm in a shop with those bitches (men/women) who think they're high and mightily with they're name badge. When they get anyway arrogant I just call the manager over and generally they will deal with it to prevent a svene

princemuzzy

she should have accepted it simple as that and in regard to the Garda checks sending in young people to try to buy alcohol if you ask said young person and they produce id fake or real you cannot be done for it as it would be entrapment

Ellis Dee

Assassin saphir wrote: »

What an ignorant remark to make about shop workers!
I work in an store and for years people looked down their nose at me and alot of other people that worked in retail/ service. I'm not illiterate I hold a degree and have progressed to a senior position within the company from where I started.
It amazing how many people that would have thought retail work was beneath them or for people who were a bit dim are now running in with the cvs looking for a job.

Sorry mods for going off topic but this statement made by Ellis Dee made me mad.

And what a hysterical and generalising response to my comment about about ONE shop assistant, who refuses to recognise a foreign passport in a country that is doing its damnedest to attract foreign visitors. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I respect everyone who does their job well - be it however so "menial" - and have only contempt for those who give customers bad service. I stand by my comment that the assistant in question must be at best semi-literate, because it does not take much education or intelligence to recognise a foreign passport, which will probably have English text in it as well.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone who refuses to sell alcohol to young (but over the legal age) Polish, Russian, German or Swedish visitors to our country deserves respect?:eek:

I suspect that you are the person who has a problem with snobbery and I suggest you try and acquire a bit more cop-on to add to the degree that you seem to think made you too good to be a shop assistant.:D

OneArt

antodeco wrote: »

Legally, passports are travel documents used for identification for travel purposes. It's actually illegal to carry your passport around with you, as it's property of the state. Most retailers only accept Age Cards because that is all they need to accept. After that, it's Drivers Licence.

That's hilarious, in Germany it's actually illegal for a non-citizen NOT to carry their passport.:eek:

Anyone

Given the possible consequences for selling alcohol to minors(fines,job loss,criminal record) I wouldnt sell to someone in posession of a form of ID I couldn't recognise either.

RADIUS

MadsL wrote: »

So EU passports are more "respected" in your view. Interesting.

What are you trying to imply?

If someone walks into a shop with a passport from some obscure (relatively speaking) non EU country than there is a bigger chance that the person behind the till wont recognize it.

If it has EU written all over it than the opposite is true.

BrendaN_f

RADIUS wrote: »

What are you trying to imply?

If someone walks into a shop with a passport from some obscure (relatively speaking) non EU country than there is a bigger chance that the person behind the till wont recognize it.

If it has EU written all over it than the opposite is true.

every passport i've ever seen has pretty much the exact same form and structure. when they check irish passports in shops, they look at the photo, and the DOB, there are no verification checks for authenticity or anything like that.

RADIUS

BrendaN_f wrote: »

every passport i've ever seen has pretty much the exact same form and structure. when they check irish passports in shops, they look at the photo, and the DOB, there are no verification checks for authenticity or anything like that.

Obviously. I think that goes without saying. You could hardly expect someone manning the local spar to verify passports.

dorkacle

seamus wrote: »

It's not illegal nor discrimination. You can't expect a local shop to accept I.D. issued somewhere else which they have no way of verifying. There's a good risk that someone could present ID claiming to be a passport from some obscure country that's totally fake.

It's nothing to do with nationality. It's to do with quality of ID. If you rocked up with your Irish driving licence you'd be refused too.

Honestly, the lengths some people go to searching for things to get offended about.

Well when I was in the US they wouldn't accept my Garda ID, an told me to come back with my passport...

So what do you use in a foreign country!?

BrendaN_f

RADIUS wrote: »

Obviously. I think that goes without saying. You could hardly expect someone manning the local spar to verify passports.

exactly, so how exactly is it easier to accept an irish passport as opposed to a non-irish one?

RADIUS

BrendaN_f wrote: »

exactly, so how exactly is it easier to accept an irish passport as opposed to a non-irish one?

I never said it was. A passport is a passport but surely in the EU an EU passport MUST be as acceptable as an Irish one by law. Whereas non EU passports may not retain the same clout outside of a a port of entry as forms of ID.

BrendaN_f

RADIUS wrote: »

I never said it was. A passport is a passport but surely in the EU an EU passport MUST be as acceptable as an Irish one by law. Whereas non EU passports may not retain the same clout outside of a a port of entry as forms of ID.

europe or EU? how many shop assistants can list the EU countries?

RADIUS

BrendaN_f wrote: »

europe or EU? how many shop assistants can list the EU countries?

EU of course, I am talking legally here, not some shopkeepers opinion.

In my opinion , this being the EU any EU passport (They have EU written all over them) should be as Valid a form of photo ID as an Irish one. In fact all passports should be viewed equally but as this is EU at the very least, a Polish passport should be as good as an Irish one or a French one for the purpose of proving your age.

Lapin

antodeco wrote: »

It's actually illegal to carry your passport around with you, as it's property of the state.

This statement falls somewhere between being utter bollocks and complete horseshít.

jluv

Ellis Dee wrote: »

And what a hysterical and generalising response to my comment about about ONE shop assistant, who refuses to recognise a foreign passport in a country that is doing its damnedest to attract foreign visitors. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I respect everyone who does their job well - be it however so "menial" - and have only contempt for those who give customers bad service. I stand by my comment that the assistant in question must be at best semi-literate, because it does not take much education or intelligence to recognise a foreign passport, which will probably have English text in it as well.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone who refuses to sell alcohol to young (but over the legal age) Polish, Russian, German or Swedish visitors to our country deserves resp

I suspect that you are the person who has a problem with snobbery and I suggest you try and acquire a bit more cop-on to add to the degree that you seem to think made you too good to be a shop assistant.:D

Perhaps this person was following the directive laid out by the company and does not have the authority to accept what they feel is correct? Perhaps it's an issue to be taken up with the company and not the person fulfilling their job description..

MadsL

Ravelleman wrote: »

My understanding of all this is that a legal grey area has essentially emerged concerning identification.

Bizarrely, if someone working in an off licence or pub sells alcohol to a minor who has shown them a passport, which appears valid but really is not, they can still be held responsible and prosecuted. If the same worker asks for a Garda Age Card, which later turns out to be forged or whatever, they can use that as a defence in court. If it had been a passport they would not have been able to rely on that.

So it appears that the Age Card takes legal precedent over the passport in matters related to alcohol. Ludicrous but such is the country we live in.

I believe this was the conclusion on the 'Beer, Wine & Spirits' forum a couple of months ago.

Given that it a defence under the Act to show that you had reasonable grounds to believe the person was over 18, what is the lagal basis for this, and can you point me to any case where this has happened?

RADIUS wrote: »

What are you trying to imply?

If someone walks into a shop with a passport from some obscure (relatively speaking) non EU country than there is a bigger chance that the person behind the till wont recognize it.

If it has EU written all over it than the opposite is true.

Do you think it would therefore be acceptable to accept the EU passport and not the African one?

RADIUS

MadsL wrote: »

Given that it a defence under the Act to show that you had reasonable grounds to believe the person was over 18, what is the lagal basis for this, and can you point me to any case where this has happened?



Do you think it would therefore be acceptable to accept the EU passport and not the African one?

I've been over this , read my previous posts if you want. I said Zimbabwe and for some reason people want to make an issue out of it.

Would you have asked me a similar question if I said Ukraine instead of Zimbabwe?

MadsL

RADIUS wrote: »

I've been over this , read my previous posts if you want. I said Zimbabwe and for some reason people want to make an issue out of it.

Would you have asked me this question if I said Ukraine instead of Zimbabwe?

Yes.

Care to answer my question now?

candy-gal1

yep, some shops can certainly be very fecking fussy with passports, I was refused mine last year because it was out of date :eek:
Maybe im wrong but i thought that was a tad ridiculous imho.

RADIUS

MadsL wrote: »

Yes.

Care to answer my question now?

I pointed you to my previous posts on this as I have expressed my opinion quite thoroughly.

RADIUS

candy-gal1 wrote: »

yep, some shops can certainly be very fecking fussy with passports, I was refused mine last year because it was out of date :eek:
Maybe im wrong but i thought that was a tad ridiculous imho.

If it's out of date then it's not valid.

MadsL

RADIUS wrote: »

I pointed you to my previous posts on this as I have expressed my opinion quite thoroughly.

Nice dodge.

RADIUS

MadsL wrote: »

Nice dodge.

MadsL what are you getting at here?

I will quote myself

RADIUS wrote: »

EU of course, I am talking legally here, not some shopkeepers opinion.

In my opinion , this being the EU any EU passport (They have EU written all over them) should be as Valid a form of photo ID as an Irish one. In fact all passports should be viewed equally but as this is EU at the very least, a Polish passport should be as good as an Irish one or a French one for the purpose of proving your age.

The answer to your question is written on this very page.

If you really don't want to bother yourself reading then here is your answer:

No.

MadsL

RADIUS wrote: »

MadsL what are you getting at here?

I was asking if this below was an observation or an expectation...

RADIUS wrote: »

If someone walks into a shop with a passport from some obscure (relatively speaking) non EU country than there is a bigger chance that the person behind the till wont recognize it.

And finally you clarified that you would not support one passport as "superior" to another when you said:

RADIUS wrote: »

No.

Nothing else. Carry on.

Assassin saphir

Ellis Dee wrote: »

And what a hysterical and generalising response to my comment about about ONE shop assistant, who refuses to recognise a foreign passport in a country that is doing its damnedest to attract foreign visitors. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I respect everyone who does their job well - be it however so "menial" - and have only contempt for those who give customers bad service. I stand by my comment that the assistant in question must be at best semi-literate, because it does not take much education or intelligence to recognise a foreign passport, which will probably have English text in it as well.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone who refuses to sell alcohol to young (but over the legal age) Polish, Russian, German or Swedish visitors to our country deserves respect?:eek:

I suspect that you are the person who has a problem with snobbery and I suggest you try and acquire a bit more cop-on to add to the degree that you seem to think made you too good to be a shop assistant.:D

It's nothing to do with literacy it about following a companies policy. Some stores accept different ids. Hardly the fault of the person serving. If you have an issue with it take it up with the company.

This is also the case to foreign passports, not my rules but I'm not going to risk my job by taking them if a company says not to.


Where did I say that I was too good to be a shop assistant?? I enjoy my job. It was your comment about some " silly little cow, probably illiterate" that I thought was uncalled for all because she works in Dunnes. She is only following company rules/policies, doing her job and you feel you have a right to judge her and imply that she is stupid.

RADIUS

MadsL wrote: »

I was asking if this below was an observation or an expectation...




And finally you clarified that you would not support one passport as "superior" to another when you said:



Nothing else. Carry on.

I am sure the PC brigade will thank you for holding me to account.

ResearchWill

Feathers wrote: »

From what I can see, the act governing it specifically mentions both passport and drivers license as valid forms of 'age documents' as it puts it.

Do you have any references (off Boards.ie ) that show this has been overturned since? Not saying your wrong, just interested.

TBH, I think to protect the rights of people who are under 21, there should be a form of ID that shops are obliged to take, so long as the photo looks like you, hasn't expired etc. & which if turn out to be false, they won't get prosecuted.

The idea that drivers licence is specifically mentioned but most places won't take it is bizarre. If they're too easily forged it should be the problem of the government, not Dunnes Stores or anyone else.

This case sets out all the law in this area, it is clear the only defence to supplying alcohol is Garda national age card, the section you referred to relates I believe to allowing a person on the premises but as I said the case sets out all the law in this area. BTW the case is going to the Supreme Court.

http://courts.ie/judgments.nsf/6681dee4565ecf2c80256e7e0052005b/491cd9c28228ffbe802576bf004b7705?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,Waxy

MadsL

ResearchWill wrote: »

This case sets out all the law in this area, it is clear the only defence to supplying alcohol is Garda national age card, the section you referred to relates I believe to allowing a person on the premises but as I said the case sets out all the law in this area. BTW the case is going to the Supreme Court.

http://courts.ie/judgments.nsf/6681dee4565ecf2c80256e7e0052005b/491cd9c28228ffbe802576bf004b7705?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,Waxy

Are you saying that reasonable belief is not a defence??

candy-gal1

RADIUS wrote: »

If it's out of date then it's not valid.

Ah I know, but it wasnt like I was using it to travel or in a different country or something, It was purely as proof of my age so I would think that all theyd need to see on it was that a. it was a real passport, not a faked one.
b. my photo and my DOB
Plus I would have been using that said passport for quite a bit as my form of ID before that too, and it being out of date. Just thought that was a bit wierd.

ResearchWill

MadsL wrote: »

Given that it a defence under the Act to show that you had reasonable grounds to believe the person was over 18, what is the lagal basis for this, and can you point me to any case where this has happened?



Do you think it would therefore be acceptable to accept the EU passport and not the African one?

As requested http://courts.ie/judgments.nsf/6681dee4565ecf2c80256e7e0052005b/491cd9c28228ffbe802576bf004b7705?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,Waxy

I have discussed this case on boards loads of times, it answers your question clearly.

ResearchWill

MadsL wrote: »

Are you saying that reasonable belief is not a defence??

No I am saying that a district court judge and a high court judge said that reasonable belief is not a defence, the case sets that out very very very clearly.

Senior Counsel for the Notice Parties submitted that the subsequent legislative history of the section demonstrates a clear intention on the part of the Legislature to revise the offence by deliberately removing the “other reasonable grounds for believing” aspect of the defence and confining it to the production of an Age Card. This intention was carried into effect by the unequivocal provisions of s. 14(1)(b) of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000. Considered in this context the phrase “it shall be a defence” did not mean one of a number of defences but indicated a single defence. By way of contrast Senior Counsel for the Notice Parties pointed to the fact that in s. 34 of the Act of 1988, as substituted by s. 14 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003, in relation to what he claimed was the less serious offence of allowing a person under the age of 18 years to be in the bar of a licensed premises, the defence of “using all due diligence” was retained. Further, Senior Counsel for the Notice Parties pointed to the fact that in s. 34A of the Act of 1988, as inserted by s. 15 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003, which made it an offence for persons aged between 18 years and 21 years, to be allowed to be in the bar of a licensed premises between certain hours, proof of age may be established by the production of what is called an “Age Document”, which the section defines as including, an age card, a passport, a drivers licence and an E.U. identity card.

MadsL

RADIUS wrote: »

I am sure the PC brigade will thank you for holding me to account.

You were doing well until this shite.

MadsL

ResearchWill wrote: »

No I am saying that a district court judge and a high court judge said that reasonable belief is not a defence, the case sets that out very very very clearly.

Wow, that is quite shocking.

Especially in a tourist economy. Perhaps we should issue age cards at the airport?
I'm not a lawyer, but is that case not a technical one meaning you have to pick a defence rather than have both defences, and that's why they lost the case.

Reasonable belief still being a defence.

Rasmus

To the OP: I doubt it is illegal to refuse a foreign passport and I'd say she made it up on the spot that it is Dunnes policy- maybe that particular store has been having problems with kids with unsuitable IDs etc . Would the case have been that the woman decided that because you ostensibly appeared Irish that you may be in possession of a mate's passport?
What did you do in the end? I'd be asking for the manager..