Seizing learners cars

mark renton

djimi wrote: »

People are posting the law, not their opinion.

Actually people have been posting their "opinion" on whether people should comply to a law which is not enforced.

djimi

john47832 wrote: »

Actually people have been posting their "opinion" on whether people should comply to a law which is not enforced.

How is it opnion to say that you should comply with the law?

awec

This post has been deleted.

CianRyan

Regardless of whether anyone does it or not, I'm sick of people comparing our laws to those of the UK.
They're their laws and their police force, if you want to be looked after by them, you are free to go live in the UK.

awec

This post has been deleted.

ABajaninCork

CianRyan wrote: »

Regardless of whether anyone does it or not, I'm sick of people comparing our laws to those of the UK.
They're their laws and their police force, if you want to be looked after by them, you are free to go live in the UK.

It's the law everywhere else, or didn't you know that either? Please give an example of a country who allows the nonsense we do here. The UK is used as an example only. Comments like this are childish.

awec wrote: »

Er, it's against the law HERE to drive unaccompanied too. You know that, right?

Clearly, the very idea of having to obey the law is an alien one to this poster as well as others.

CianRyan

awec wrote: »

Er, it's against the law HERE to drive unaccompanied too. You know that, right?

Seizing an impeding/crushing cars is not part of the law here, yet people are going mental in this thread jumping from one extremento another.
If you want to live with these rules, you can live and work in the UK today thanks to the EU.
If you'd rather stay in Ireland then either push for the laws to be changed and stop bitching on the Internet or you can move to the UK where you will clearly be happier.

awec

This post has been deleted.

CianRyan

Conversely, although it's written in the law that one must not drive unaccompanied, this law is not uphelp and is somewhat a legal grey area. I, among others are quite free to drive here. How ever, we are also well aware of the legal risk and we will take what ever punishment is given to us if the Garda that stops us deems us unfit to be on the road.
We are not above the law, we don't think we are or claim to be.

If you wish to stop us, get onto the Garda, Politiciants, Joe Duffy or become a Garda yourself and stop us.
Shouting at the computer won't stop us.
I should hopefully have my full licence soon anyway so I don't mind.

awec

This post has been deleted.

CianRyan

If it's not a grey area then why are all unaccompanied learners not arrested?
Do you understand what a legal grey area is?

pippip

CianRyan wrote: »

If it's not a grey area then why are all unaccompanied learners not arrested?
Do you understand what a legal grey area is?

That's not a legal grey area.

If it was a legal grey area the question and uncertainty would be whether or not it's illegal to drive unaccompanied. That bit is crystal clear.

the only grey area is non-legal and is why the law is not enforced to the same degree as other traffic laws.

CianRyan

pippip wrote: »

That's not a legal grey area.

If it was a legal grey area the question and uncertainty would be whether or not it's illegal to drive unaccompanied. That bit is crystal clear.

the only grey area is non-legal and is why the law is not enforced to the same degree as other traffic laws.

It works both ways actually.

Alanstrainor

I'm quite free to drive pissed off my head too...so long as I don't get caught...

pippip

CianRyan wrote: »

It works both ways actually.

If it was a "legal" grey area you would stand a chance of getting off once caught. Stop trying to make the law something it's not.

djimi

CianRyan wrote: »

If it's not a grey area then why are all unaccompanied learners not arrested?
Do you understand what a legal grey area is?

Its not a legal grey area at all; its written into law that anyone on a learners permit must only drive when accompanied by an instructor or someone who holds a full valid drivers license that they have held for two years. Its as absolutely black and white as it could possibly be.

The only reason that unaccompanied learners are not prosecuted is because for some unknown reason we have a police force who seem to feel that they can pick and choose which laws they want to uphold. This does not equate to a legal grey area, it simply points to an incompetant police force.

arleitiss

Jesus, no offence but there are so many assholes, I mean those who are ready to say:
Oh yeah, he's learner driving un-acompanied! Take his car? - yes sure they should do it.
Prison them? - yeah why not.
Fine them? - yeah go ahead.
I bet if government said:
Murder/life sentence un-acompanied drivers I bet all of these "assholes" would say yeah sure, why not.

Jesus christ, there is not a single person in this world who doesn't break law and follow every single rule.
Sometimes fully licensed drivers are more of an idiots than learners themselves who try to follow every rule not to get stopped, while those that are fully licensed just race across and freely not caring about laws.

Last week I saw some guy on a 5 series bmw, talking on phone in traffic (holding phone on this right ear), and he was slashing across lanes without indication. I almost hit him because it was slow moving traffic, when car in front of me moved forward I was ready to move off and then this guy just changed lane without any kind of indication whatsoever. - **** that, if you call those a "proper, drivers" well then there is something wrong with your head. I haven't seen any learner driver doing **** like that.
And that's only like 1 out of 500 other cases I saw these what you call "good, law obeying drivers"

Yes learner drivers are aware they are breaking law, yes they should be fined and given penalty points.
But being a total dickhead to them saying they should be taken car from and go totally broke isn't really fair as well.
Pretty much same as saying to fully licensed driver:
Oh you were speeding? well sorry we are taking your car and here is a 1000 euro bill. Thank you. - You still broke a law, knowing you did it.

I just bet, I can literally place 100 euro bet on this that 90% of these learner-haters got their license when either the license was way easier to get (I am not familiar with history of license obtaining), or got it when there was no such rules such as waiting 6 months and taking EDT.

That's what's called putting yourself into other peoples' shoes, I highly doubt that if you were in this situation you would break the law as well.

juan.kerr

arleitiss wrote: »

Jesus christ, there is not a single person in this world who doesn't break law and follow every single rule.

There's a big difference between breaking the off rule and deciding to completely ignore a law and break it every day. I wish the a**holes who continue to do so would realise that.

I asked before, what other countries allow unlicenced drivers to drive unaccompanied on public roads?

pippip

Flicked through as much as I could of this thread and two things came to mind which I couldn't see discussed. (point mt in the right direction if I missed it)

One is if they started seizing cars for this I'd imagine there would be a large number of pissed off parents due to the amount of learners driving the folks cars.

Also I believe the way around it would just be to break another law and not carry your licence. Get given ten days to produce and keep the car.

Then they could start seizing cars from anyone without a licence on them.

ABajaninCork

Well, actually I'm one of the ***holes of which you speak.

I learnt in the UK. I paid for lessons and took my test. I didn't drive unaccompanied. Just like any regular person. You are defending the indefensible. What makes learners here a breed apart? So far I've read:

Lessons too expensive
Test too expensive
Need car for work/visiting GF
What if it's raining (WTF???)
Live in a rural area (But can't/won't get a taxi or a lift)
Have car which is apparently taxed, insured and NCT'd, and has petrol but can't afford the E85 for a test.
***hole licensed drivers breaking the rules of the road

Yada, yada.

The law is the law for a reason. And NO I wouldn't break it. It's cheaper to observe the law, than it is to break it.

Simple economics.

djimi

arleitiss wrote: »

Oh yeah, he's learner driving un-acompanied! Take his car? - yes sure they should do it.

Question: its against the law for a learner driver to drive unaccompanied on a public road, so if a Garda pulls one over and has ascertained that they are breaking the law, why should they just take their details and allow them to drive off and continue to break the law? Im not suggesting that the car be crushed or anything, but if the law states that a learner cannot drive unaccompanied then they need to be treated the same as drunk drivers in that scenario, ie, keys taken off them and them not allowed to continue to drive the car as they had been doing. Otherwise whats the point in having a law if the Garda is going to allow them to keep on breaking it?

mark renton

djimi wrote: »

Question: its against the law for a learner driver to drive unaccompanied on a public road, so if a Garda pulls one over and has ascertained that they are breaking the law, why should they just take their details and allow them to drive off and continue to break the law?

You seem oblivious to the fact that you need to be asking yourself this question as you obviously dont understand why it happens

djimi wrote: »

Im not suggesting that the car be crushed or anything, but if the law states that a learner cannot drive unaccompanied then they need to be treated the same as drunk drivers in that scenario, ie, keys taken off them and them not allowed to continue to drive the car as they had been doing. Otherwise whats the point in having a law if the Garda is going to allow them to keep on breaking it?

Comparing driving unaccompanied to drink driving. A little dramatic?

mark renton

djimi wrote: »

How is it opnion to say that you should comply with the law?

o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/



Noun:

• A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
• The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.

areyawell

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You deserve to be caught and fined/prosecuted.

Maybe I will be got and the Gaurd will let me off with a warning. Great success. When any my friends got stopped all they got was a warning.I couldn't care less about been fined. I will get my full license eventually, probably in the next two months. If you are got speeding, doing something stupid then the gaurd will fine you.

monkeypants wrote: »

This is why your car should be seized. Thanks for making the best argument in the thread so far.

Car been seized would you ever stop. THIS WOULD NEVER EVER HAPPEN. Until there's more Guards on the road and they implement stricter laws I will continue to do so. If you are caught on the motorway as a learner driver you get six months off the road and a 2000 euro fine(I think, open to correct figures If I'm wrong here). If this was the same on all roads then I would not drive on any road. I am not bragging that I drive with a provisional but like I said the benefit outweighs the risk.

djimi wrote: »

People are posting the law, not their opinion. Its not opinion that learners drivers should not be driving freely on public roads unaccompanied; thats just plain common sense and its backed up by the law. I always find it so bemusing how learners in these debates seem to think that they have some kind of valid counter-arguement; they dont. Break the law all you want but do not try and justify doing so, do not try and vilify those who say that what you are doing is wrong, and do not come whinging when you do eventually come across the one Garda who bothers to prosecute and slap a heavy fine.

I am not bragging and giving out to anyone here. I am trying to state facts. If I get caught and I will gladly pay my 2 or 3 hundred euro fine. The same as 90% of other provisional license holder in the country. I need my car and would be unable to do my masters otherwise.

mitosis

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Well, there's a simple answer to that, isn't there? Learn to drive, pass your test, then you won't have that problem - will you? Simple.

I'm sick and tired of the same crap being trotted out. Only in Ireland, have I heard such asinine nonsense.

Gards SHOULD seize and CRUSH the bloody cars. It might concentrate some minds then.

With the unqualified drivers still in them!

areyawell

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I'm quite free to drive pissed off my head too...so long as I don't get caught...

That is entirely different. If a guard knows you are drunk you will get prosecuted and put off the road for a year or two.

If a guard catches a learner driver he will just give them a warning unless they are doing something stupid like speeding or doing something erratic when driving, then he will prosecute them to the fullest extent.

If guards really felt that learner drivers were a threat then they would prosecute them.

awec

This post has been deleted.

awec

This post has been deleted.

juan.kerr

We should build a full scale Monster Truck arena.

Then any learner drivers caught driving unaccompanied are sent into the arena in their cars (with half a litre of petrol/diesel), then send out Jurassic Attack and Grave Digger to do the crushing.

The revenue from the crowds would go to the exchequer and it might re-introduce the missing 'feel good' factor that spurs us on to recovery.

mark renton

awec wrote: »

Not even slightly.

:rolleyes:

awec wrote: »

What your opinion is is irrelevant. The law is the law. Even if you disagree with it you still have to abide by it.

The understanding of the word "opinion" was added for another poster as they, like yourself, seem oblivious to the fact that you are posting your "opinion" - others are posting their experience

The difference? Experience is what happens in the real world, and the other happens in somebodys mind

areyawell

awec wrote: »

Both are acting illegally and both are just as morally devoid as the other. Both should be treated like the criminals that they are and both should feel the full force of the law.

If guards were stricter in this country with harsher laws the same as the UK then no one would drive on there provisional license. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if they brought in harsher penalties. Its a law that would be ENFORCED and would have no choice but to stay off the road.

Guards here don't care and until that changes I will drive on my learners permit. Why would I leave my car at home for six months when I can drive on the road without any repercussions? Please don't reply back that "Its the law and you shouldn't be doing it"

Mo60

areyawell wrote: »

Please don't reply back that "Its the law and you shouldn't be doing it"

Why?

Are you above the law and entitled to do as you wish, even though it's illegal?

juan.kerr

Mo60 wrote: »

Why?

Are you above the law and entitled to do as you wish, even though it's illegal?

These idiots probably think they are Nico Toscani from 'Above the Law' - the Seagan classic.

areyawell

Mo60 wrote: »

Why?

Are you above the law and entitled to do as you wish, even though it's illegal?

No, I don't feel like I'm above the law. Oh no its illegal I should be sent to jail with the keys thrown away. If the government taxed 70% of your wages for the rest of your life would you bend over and let them do it because its the law?
Do you agree with these propery taxes coming in and water charges? Ah sure I'll just agree with it since its the law.
Christ people get off your high morals. Oh no I broke a law boohoo. Its not like I'm going around murdering, raping, robbing people now is it?

Supergurrier

There is an awful smell of entitlement in here.

Like i said i did this but there is no way i would be posting saying "shurre everyone is doing it/im a grand driver/whats there to prove"

Drove along head down minding my own business and if i was caught tehre would have been no arguement i was doing the wrong thing from me, was unemployed for a couple of years and tbh it was tight and i kept putting the test off as you do.

However alot of blame lies with the authorities not cracking down, i would have been off to the test centre suitable chastised if i was caught, but i wasn't and it's very unlikely anyone will be day to day as in 6 years driving i haven't been asked for my license even once.

I think this can be filed under "A law which isn't enforced isn't really a law"

Still the test isn't that hard and i would encurage anyone with the time to do it asap, it's not a joke or a money scam or driving like a granny for an hour, it's
proof of your ability to operate a 1 ton + metal box that speeds along at 100km/ph+

awec

This post has been deleted.

Mo60

areyawell wrote: »

No, I don't feel like I'm above the law. Oh no its illegal I should be sent to jail with the keys thrown away. If the government taxed 70% of your wages for the rest of your life would you bend over and let them do it because its the law?
Do you agree with these propery taxes coming in and water charges? Ah sure I'll just agree with it since its the law.
Christ people get off your high morals. Oh no I broke a law boohoo. Its not like I'm going around murdering, raping, robbing people now is it?

So you only obey the law if you agree with it?

areyawell

awec wrote: »

I'm not posting my opinion. It is illegal and wrong to drive without a valid license.

That is a fact, not my opinion.


You clearly do. Why do you feel the law doesn't apply to you? You're happy to ignore it, so what makes you so special?

You are breaking the law and your attempts to excuse it are childish at best. Do you think you're cool because you ignore it? Does it increase your social status among your peers or something?

Yes I am ultra cool driving to college every day as I have no other way of getting to college along with thousands of others that do it in this country. Why do you think I am cool saying this? A lot of my friends and other people I know drive on there provisional, its not a big deal. Also yes it is a law, a law which isn't enforced so I don't mind breaking it.

corktina

areyawell wrote: »

Yes I am ultra cool driving to college every day as I have no other way of getting to college along with thousands of others that do it in this country. Why do you think I am cool saying this? A lot of my friends and other people I know drive on there provisional, its not a big deal. Also yes it is a law, a law which isn't enforced so I don't mind breaking it.

oh yes it is as you will find should the gards catch up with you.Sooner or later the majority of us law-abiding drivers will demand illegal drivers are driven off the road

areyawell

Mo60 wrote: »

So you only obey the law if you agree with it?

Twisting things again to try and catch me out. I don't agree that people should be prosecuted for smoking weed. Law here should be the same as England. Does that mean I smoke weed. No it does not.

areyawell

corktina wrote: »

oh yes it is as you will find should the gards catch up with you.Sooner or later the majority of us law-abiding drivers will demand illegal drivers are driven off the road

Got stopped by gaurds numerous times. Just told me to drive on and same thing happened to my friends. If they do catch up on me I will pay my fine and happily stay driving on the road on my learners permit.
law abiding drivers will get learner drivers off the road really? Hasnt happened in 30 years and wont happen anytime soon

Mo60

areyawell wrote: »

Twisting things again to try and catch me out. I don't agree that people should be prosecuted for smoking weed. Law here should be the same as England. Does that mean I smoke weed. No it does not.

You have still not answered my question.

areyawell

Mo60 wrote: »

You have still not answered my question.

It depends on the law obviously. If it enforced I will gladly obey the law like the learner drivers policy is enforced in England. If it not enforced like the learner driver policy is in Ireland then I will break the Law.

If robbing people was not enforced do you think I would go around robbing people? No I would not! It depends on the situation and the consequences.

My local stays open some Saturdays till around 3AM. This is breaking the law and some nights I choose to stay till that time even though closing time is 12:30AM. I choose to stay even though its breaking the law.

Mo60

areyawell wrote: »

It depends on the law obviously. If it enforced I will gladly obey the law like the learner drivers policy is enforced in England. If it not enforced like the learner driver policy is in Ireland then I will break the Law.

If robbing people was not enforced do you think I would go around robbing people? No I would not! It depends on the situation and the consequences.

My local stays open some Saturdays till around 3AM. This is breaking the law and some nights I choose to stay till that time even though closing time is 12:30AM. I choose to stay even though its breaking the law.

So, short answer, you only obey the law if you agree with it.

areyawell

Mo60 wrote: »

So, short answer, you only obey the law if you agree with it.

NO!!!!!!! It depends entirely on the situation!! How are you not getting this? I do not agree with the Law that people with newer cars with low emissions pay very low tax while people with older cars pay much higher tax. Does this mean I do not pay the tax on my older car?? No it does not I pay my tax on my car!!!

awec

This post has been deleted.

Mo60

areyawell wrote: »

NO!!!!!!! It depends entirely on the situation!! How are you not getting this?

o


So it depends on the situation whether you break the law ???

slimjimmc

areyawell wrote: »

NO!!!!!!! It depends entirely on the situation!! How are you not getting this?

In your own words

areyawell wrote: »

If it enforced I will gladly obey the law like the learner drivers policy is enforced in England. If it not enforced like the learner driver policy is in Ireland then I will break the Law.

So you choose to ignore the law because it's not strongly enforced and you have been getting away with it so far, otherwise why not obey it regardless of the risk of getting caught?

areyawell

awec wrote: »

Here's hoping you aren't studying law at college given the unbelievable difficult you seem to have in understanding what you are doing is blatantly illegal.


Why do you pay tax but not get a driving license? Why do you see a difference between not paying motor tax and not getting a valid license to drive?

No, I am studying my masters in Software Engineering. Without my car I would be unable to attend college as I cannot afford to live where the college is. I know what I am doing is illegal but as I said in all my posts it is illegal but not enforced. I am willing to risk driving to college every day for a 200 euro fine. It is illegal and I fully understand it is illegal and that I should not be doing it but until it is enforced I will continue to do it as I do not believe me staying at home ,missing college for a year is worth it when I see hundreds of other learner drivers on the roads everyday.
Because If you are caught without tax it is a much steeper fine around the 1000 euro fine and guards will seize and impound your car. I will be applying for my full license very soon when I have all my lessons done and the six months policy is up.

slimjimmc wrote: »

In your own words

So you choose to ignore the law because it's not strongly enforced and you have been getting away with it so far, otherwise why not obey it regardless of the risk of getting caught?

Because if you caught its a 200-300 euro fine. What would I rather to do or any sane person rather to do? Defer my masters for a year for the sake of getting a 200-300 fine? Who in the right mind would risk there masters with no gauruntee of getting it the following year all for 200-300 fine if you do get caught and most guards just let you off.

slimjimmc

areyawell wrote: »

Because If you are caught without tax it is a much steeper fine around the 1000 euro fine and guards will seize and impound your car.
:
:
Because if you caught its a 200-300 euro fine.

You do realise the maximum fine for driving unaccompanied is €1000, and the maximum fine for no L-plates (which many unaccompanied drivers don't display) is also €1000.
It may not happen often but I have read press reports where such high penalties have been handed down. You're not risking a mere €300 you're risking a fine of up to €1000 on each account.