Bonus points for Irish LC Applicants - Outright Fraud?

hjkgfjsd

Was reading the fact that bonus points, up to 10%, a couple of grades, are given to candidates who sit an exam in Irish. How is this not fraud? It's effing up the points system/curve with people who are starting on a plane above other people. It's nonsense to award somebody a A in maths when they deserve a B, just because they wrote the exam in Irish, even with the same knowledge that the person who does not sit it in Irish gets a B. The SEC have alot to answer for this practice, do you think? Shocking. Absolutely shocking practice imo.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0207/1224311389656.html

Canard

I think it's 10% of what you didn't get. The number of people who'd even go up a grade is tiny...an NG to an F (10% -> 19%) is still 0 points.

Though I agree, it's awful, why should some get rewarded for sitting exams in their native tongues while the rest get no reward. :rolleyes:

JDOC1996

What's wrong with this? It's an incentive for students to to take a greater interest in our native language? And in my opinion, It's perfectly fair.

Canard

Well if it's so fair, why not just offer 25 extra points for HL Irish?
As the article points out not everyone gets the chance. It's also technically counterproductive. I know a guy who did his LC through Irish and is now doing engineering, he'd have gotten it without the bonus, but he doesn't know a lot of the maths terms in English - the language that it's all done in.

Peregrine

JDOC1996 wrote: »

What's wrong with this? It's an incentive for students to to take a greater interest in our native language? And in my opinion, It's perfectly fair.

It's not available to everyone
There's no way I can do it, my maths teachers can't speak any Irish at all and to do higher level Irish I have to stay back hours after school and be 1 of the 3 people that do it.

How is it fair on me that people who grew up with the fortune of being able to learn the language gets more points in Maths than me?

It actually adds shame to the disgraceful education people are offered in cities and older schools. And if I want a better education, €7000 a year please

Fair? I think not..

rainbowtrout

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

What are you talking about?

If you have no idea about a subject don't talk about it

It's 10% of the marks you get wrong. So if you get 60% and do the test in Irish you will get 64%
How is that messing up anything?
It's twice as hard to do the leaving through Irish. I'm doing 6 subjects through Irish, and we have to read the course through English then translate it into Irish and learn it. That's twice as much work as someone doing it through English and you only get at maximum 6% added on for doing this.

No, the OP was right. It's 10% of the marks you get in the exam up to 75%.

So if you get 60% in the exam, you will get 6% added on as the Irish bonus.

In this case you do go up a grade from a C2 to a C1.

Irish and English are given equal status as languages in this country, yet students who sit their exams in Irish are given preference. That is what the OP is getting at. If your teacher is teaching the course through English first and then translating it, then they shouldn't be, they should be teaching it through Irish from the start. If your parents have chosen to send you to a gaelscoil or you opted to go there yourself you knew what you were going to be doing. You could have opted to be educated through English.

anirishlad

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

What are you talking about?

If you have no idea about a subject don't talk about it

It's 10% of the marks you get wrong. So if you get 60% and do the test in Irish you will get 64%
How is that messing up anything?
It's twice as hard to do the leaving through Irish. I'm doing 6 subjects through Irish, and we have to read the course through English then translate it into Irish and learn it. That's twice as much work as someone doing it through English and you only get at maximum 6% added on for doing this.

I dont get it why are you doing it in irish then if its not worth it It makes absolutely no sense offering an extra 10% for doing a exam in a minority language.

Rayne Wooney

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No, the OP was right. It's 10% of the marks you get in the exam up to 75%.

So if you get 60% in the exam, you will get 6% added on as the Irish bonus.

In this case you do go up a grade from a C2 to a C1.

Irish and English are given equal status as languages in this country, yet students who sit their exams in Irish are given preference. That is what the OP is getting at. If your teacher is teaching the course through English first and then translating it, then they shouldn't be, they should be teaching it through Irish from the start. If your parents have chosen to send you to a gaelscoil or you opted to go there yourself you knew what you were going to be doing. You could have opted to be educated through English.

Thanks, you've cleared it up for me, we were given incorrect information by an examiner then.

We were told it's 10% of the marks you get wrong so that's where I got that from

copacetic

hjkgfjsd wrote: »

Was reading the fact that bonus points, up to 10%, a couple of grades, are given to candidates who sit an exam in Irish. How is this not fraud? It's effing up the points system/curve with people who are starting on a plane above other people. It's nonsense to award somebody a A in maths when they deserve a B, just because they wrote the exam in Irish, even with the same knowledge that the person who does not sit it in Irish gets a B. The SEC have alot to answer for this practice, do you think? Shocking. Absolutely shocking practice imo.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0207/1224311389656.html

Probably unlikely someone will move from B to A in Maths. You don't get 10% added for Maths, just 5%.

Bonus marks at the rate of 5 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- French, German, Italian, Spanish, Mathematics, Applied Mathematics, Accounting, Engineering, Construction Studies, Materials Technology (Wood), Metalwork, Junior Certificate Technology, Leaving Certificate Technology, Typewriting, Russian and Japanese

TheFlayedMan

Chuck on the 25 extra points for Irish, damn you!

An Coilean

The reason that there are bonus points for sitting the leaving in Irish is simple, sitting the leaving in Irish puts the student at a disadvantage to the student sitting it through English.

The student sitting it through will have access to text books for their subject, these are rarely available in Irish, so the student studying a subject through Irish has to spend much time translating material from English to Irish, or do without. The same is true for study aids such as 'Less Stress More Success' these are available for every subject in English, they are not available in Irish
Then there are Grinds, students studying subjects through English have the ability to take grinds, these are very rarely available in Irish.

Its not fraud, its simply redressing the balance.

haro124

Yeah but ya cant go from an A2 to an A1 with the bonus marks cos it stops at 75 % !!!


At the Certificate Examinations candidates shall, except where otherwise directed, have the option of answering either in Irish or in English, except in the case of the subjects Irish and English and questions in other language subjects where the use of the target language is specified. Candidates will be supplied with Irish or English versions of the examination papers as indicated on their entry forms. A candidate who answers in Irish at the written examination in the various subjects as set out below may be given bonus marks in addition to the marks gained in the subject.
Bonus marks at the rate of 10 per cent of the marks obtained will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- Latin, Greek, Classical Studies, Hebrew Studies, History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Biology, Science, Business, Economics, Economic History, Agricultural Science, Agricultural Economics, Home Economics, Music, Business Studies, History and Appreciation of Art, Civic, Social and Political Education, Religious Education, Arabic, LCVP Link Modules - written component only.
Bonus marks at the rate of 5 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- French, German, Italian, Spanish, Mathematics, Applied Mathematics, Accounting, Engineering, Construction Studies, Materials Technology (Wood), Metalwork, Junior Certificate Technology, Leaving Certificate Technology, Typewriting, Russian and Japanese.
Bonus marks at the rate of 3 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the subject Art, Craft, Design (Junior Certificate).

Gumbi

An Coilean wrote: »

The reason that there are bonus points for sitting the leaving in Irish is simple, sitting the leaving in Irish puts the student at a disadvantage to the student sitting it through English.

The student sitting it through will have access to text books for their subject, these are rarely available in Irish, so the student studying a subject through Irish has to spend much time translating material from English to Irish, or do without. The same is true for study aids such as 'Less Stress More Success' these are available for every subject in English, they are not available in Irish
Then there are Grinds, students studying subjects through English have the ability to take grinds, these are very rarely available in Irish.

Its not fraud, its simply redressing the balance.

Yes! Typically speaking, this is the case. It requires more effort to do the exam in Irish so this effort is rewarded.

Canard

It requires more effort to study 8 subjects, or 7 subjects at HL, but no one gets rewarded for that. Fair enough you do have to put in more work to do it through Irish, but I don't see any reason for rewarding it, there's no academic merit to it really...thats like saying someone who gets grinds deserves a few extra marks because they tried imo.

spurious

I have a feeling it may have been a way originally of ensuring a supply of teachers able to teach in Gaelcholáiste. I don't have any proof of that, just a fair idea of how the DES collective mind works.

finality

haro124 wrote: »

Bonus marks at the rate of 3 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the subject Art, Craft, Design (Junior Certificate).

Hahahaha you don't even write anything, everyone should do JC art "through Irish" :L

randylonghorn

hjkgfjsd wrote: »

How is this not fraud?

How IS it fraud?

You may not agree with the policy, that's fair enough.

But fraud?

Are the bonus points for HL maths fraud then?

They also are the result of a policy decision by the Department / government to provide a bonus as an incentive to students to take certain decisions relevant to their choices for LC.

HugsiePie

finality wrote: »

Hahahaha you don't even write anything, everyone should do JC art "through Irish" :L

Well there are support studies to be done........but all in all it's not very much :P

Peregrine

HugsiePie wrote: »

Well there are support studies to be done........but all in all it's not very much :P

That was basically sticking pictures down on a page. And write maybe 20 lines each for whatever artists you chose for options and theme

ConorCBS

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

That was basically sticking pictures down on a page. And write maybe 20 lines each for whatever artists you chose for options and theme

You can't pick and chose which subjects you do through Irish. You either to them all through Irish or you do them all through English.

Peregrine

ConorCBS wrote: »

You can't pick and chose which subjects you do through Irish. You either to them all through Irish or you do them all through English.

Ohh I knew it'd be something like that or else everyone would be doing Art in Irish

Still unfair

JDOC1996

No, you can do some of them through irish and a few through English, I'm doing an extra subject through English, and I'm in an Irish school.

machiavellianme

Same rules apply to everyone. You have the option of either language.
Its life. Not everything seems fair when you are the one losing out but you could do it through Irish the same as the next person. Knuckle down and start translating.

spurious

Here's what the SEC say about it: http://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=ca&sc=im

The 'extra' marks are not given for subjects like Art, plus you will get the Irish version of the paper.

Importantly,
Candidates who answer partly in Irish and partly in English will receive no bonus marks.

maedhbh_mac

Having just taken my leaving cert through Irish last year, I have to protest. It's not some kind of fraud being perpetuated against students who take their exams through English- it's simply a recognition that taking seven subjects through Irish is more difficult and is a worthy incentive, imo.

It encourages a practical application of a dying language which, like it or not, we do need to create incentives to learn in an applicable manner if we want it to continue to exist in any way, shape or form.

25 bonus points for HL Irish just isn't the same as allowing extra marks for taking every subject (and it has to be every subject) through Irish- you achieve a whole other standard of fluency above and beyond HL Irishby doing so.

There are plenty of gael choláistí out there, crying out for students interested in an all-Irish education; this immersive approach really can't be recommended highly enough.

Peregrine

maedhbh_mac wrote: »

Having just taken my leaving cert through Irish last year, I have to protest. It's not some kind of fraud being perpetuated against students who take their exams through English- it's simply a recognition that taking seven subjects through Irish is more difficult and is a worthy incentive, imo.

It encourages a practical application of a dying language which, like it or not, we do need to create incentives to learn in an applicable manner if we want it to continue to exist in any way, shape or form.

25 bonus points for HL Irish just isn't the same as allowing extra marks for taking every subject (and it has to be every subject) through Irish- you achieve a whole other standard of fluency above and beyond HL Irishby doing so.

There are plenty of gael choláistí out there, crying out for students interested in an all-Irish education; this immersive approach really can't be recommended highly enough.

Why can't I get it?

An Coilean

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Why can't I get it?

Of course you can, you just have to do your LC through Irish.

maedhbh_mac

^+1

Also worth noting that if you have a pretty decent standard of Irish, it's not actually all that difficult to take the exams through Irish. Yes, you need a pretty specialized vocab for some subjects (sciences are particularly gruesome), but because you're entitled to an English copy of each paper as well, really you've just to translate your answer.

So it's not unfeasible that, if you were prepared to learn the terminology for your subjects and had a good grounding in the language, you could take the exams through Irish without, strictly speaking, having to attend a gaelcholáiste.

Gumbi

maedhbh_mac wrote: »

^+1

Also worth noting that if you have a pretty decent standard of Irish, it's not actually all that difficult to take the exams through Irish. Yes, you need a pretty specialized vocab for some subjects (sciences are particularly gruesome), but because you're entitled to an English copy of each paper as well, really you've just to translate your answer.

So it's not unfeasible that, if you were prepared to learn the terminology for your subjects and had a good grounding in the language, you could take the exams through Irish without, strictly speaking, having to attend a gaelcholáiste.

I'd almost agree. Your grasp if Irish would have to be higher than a typically average honours level student in a non-Gaelcholáiste school, but yes, I would think you're correct.

Peregrine

Gumbi wrote: »

I'd almost agree. Your grasp if Irish would have to be higher than a typically average honours level student in a non-Gaelcholáiste school, but yes, I would think you're correct.

The only higher level Irish education I can have is after school 3 times a week with 2 other people which is supposed to be enough for just a pass

Definetly not sufficient for sitting the Leaving Cert in Irish.

It's the only education in Irish I can have.
How is this my fault and why is it that other people are getting extra points because they had better chances than me?

Until you can justify that, it's simply not fair

Gumbi

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

The only higher level Irish education I can have is after school 3 times a week with 2 other people which is supposed to be enough for just a pass

Definetly not sufficient for sitting the Leaving Cert in Irish.

It's the only education in Irish I can have.
How is this my fault and why is it that other people are getting extra points because they had better chances than me?

Until you can justify that, it's simply not fair

How is it fair that I have to pay to do Applied Maths outside school?