Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

Japer

Spread wrote: »

No country likes to be overrun/invaded.

so what are you doing in the USA? Ask the native Americans how they feel....or any of the people who have a grievance with the USA before lecturing others on " colonial ruling nations".

If you believe "No country likes to be overrun/invaded. ", why was your USA so slow in coming to the aid of such overrun / invaded countries in WW1 and WW2?

Fratton Fred

Spread wrote: »

Fred - old bean! You come across as a typical British right on sort of chap. The way you try and try again to legitimise the barbarism of colonial rule would give the impression that you have not sank back in your armchair with a cup of Rosie and thought the process through. No country likes to be overrun/invaded. No amount of talk about roads/bridges being built, educating the ignorant or exchanging cultural values (one way of course) makes sense. The fact is that empire building was all about rape, loot and pillage. Not your fault that you don't get it as this historical axiom is anathema to most British minds who's history lessons were, er, taught by teachers that had been educated in that system.
But like most colonial ruling nations ......... the chicks come home to roost and, in the face of seismic change, are left pining for the old days when Britannia ruled the waves and Johnny Foreigner knew his place.
Get with the programme Fred and take the pressure off your spleen. Try eating Mr Kipling instead of reading Rudyard .......... leaves a far nicer taste in the mouth

Spread, my old mucker, how's she cuttin?

I have not once tried to defend empires, or the British one. If I have I would be grateful if you could point to it.

Now, here's a bit of news for you.

No, The British Empire was not the worst. Not the best and not benevolent, but not the worst. Also, no, the Irish were not treated worse than the jews under Hitler or whatever such sob story people like to come up with.

No, the Famine wasn't genocide and yes, a lot of Irish people did quite nicely under the British and carried out their own bit of Empire building. Ask yourself why, for example, the people of Montserrat celebrate St Patrick's day. Not because they love the Irish (Although obviously, the whole world do ) but because they chose that day to rise up against their imperial slave owners who, as like most Irish people, would be celebrating that day.

The Idyl Race

gurramok wrote: »

Even closer to home, we had mass starvation under British rule, aka the Famine.

We also had mass emigration, destitution, slums, tuberculosis, the Magdalen homes and Letterfrack under Irish rule. Up to the end of DeValera's rule as Taoiseach, was independence any better than what had gone before? Ireland was still run for the benefit of a tiny minority except this time they were Catholics. Whoop de do.

partyguinness

Japer wrote: »

so what are you doing in the USA? Ask the native Americans how they feel....or any of the people who have a grievance with the USA before lecturing others on " colonial ruling nations".

If you believe "No country likes to be overrun/invaded. ", why was your USA so slow in coming to the aid of such overrun / invaded countries in WW1 and WW2?

You sound like you are losing the run of yourself. That last point is a whole different thread.

Fratton Fred

Japer wrote: »

so what are you doing in the USA? Ask the native Americans how they feel....or any of the people who have a grievance with the USA before lecturing others on " colonial ruling nations".

If you believe "No country likes to be overrun/invaded. ", why was your USA so slow in coming to the aid of such overrun / invaded countries in WW1 and WW2?

From what I have learnt on this thread, the Native Americans would be perfectly entitled to burn Spread out of his house tonight and murder his children. After all, they would only be "Fighting Back".;)

Spread

Japer wrote: »

so what are you doing in the USA? Ask the native Americans how they feel....or any of the people who have a grievance with the USA before lecturing others on " colonial ruling nations".

If you believe "No country likes to be overrun/invaded. ", why was your USA so slow in coming to the aid of such overrun / invaded countries in WW1 and WW2?

A bit of a leap Japer ............ retired and came out here about 18 months ago so unless they introduce the draft to foreigners over 60, I won't be invading anywhere

Fratton Fred

The Idyl Race wrote: »

We also had mass emigration, destitution, slums, tuberculosis, the Magdalen homes and Letterfrack under Irish rule. Up to the end of DeValera's rule as Taoiseach, was independence any better than what had gone before? Ireland was still run for the benefit of a tiny minority except this time they were Catholics. Whoop de do.

Up until the second world war, most countries were run for the benefit of a few. Lets face it, the seven main founding fathers of the US, who signed a deceleration stating that "all men were equal under god" all owned farms and plantations worked by slaves.

Obviously "All Men" only applied to the white christian ones.

The Idyl Race

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Up until the second world war, most countries were run for the benefit of a few. Lets face it, the seven main founding fathers of the US, who signed a deceleration stating that "all men were equal under god" all owned farms and plantations worked by slaves.

Obviously "All Men" only applied to the white christian ones.

It says a lot though that life in Britain, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand was a lot more attractive to Irish people, both before and after independence, even before the War.

Dalken

Im over and back to England working, no one expects you to wear one in my experience. It's part of British culture and it seems they start wearing them earlier and earlier every year. I wouldnt be offended to see an Irish person here wear a poppy thats their business, it doesn't hurt anyone. I don't know why people here still go on about it every year, its time we grew up a bit in this country and stopped wondering about our past and what the Brits might be up to...they sure as hell know or care f*ck all about what we do.

Spread

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Spread, my old mucker, how's she cuttin?

I have not once tried to defend empires, or the British one. If I have I would be grateful if you could point to it.

Now, here's a bit of news for you.

No, The British Empire was not the worst. Not the best and not benevolent, but not the worst. Also, no, the Irish were not treated worse than the jews under Hitler or whatever such sob story people like to come up with.

No, the Famine wasn't genocide and yes, a lot of Irish people did quite nicely under the British and carried out their own bit of Empire building. Ask yourself why, for example, the people of Montserrat celebrate St Patrick's day. Not because they love the Irish (Although obviously, the whole world do ) but because they chose that day to rise up against their imperial slave owners who, as like most Irish people, would be celebrating that day.[/QUOTE]

Ungrateful fuckers. After all we did for them. Educated them, taught them Irish, showed them ye olde equivelent of Riverdance (camera cue to row of drunken Irish plantation owners shooting under the dancers' toes) etc.
This is not the way I would think .......... but it is possibly your train of thought. Because (I'm not blaming you) that was the way you were taught Fred!

marwelie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poppy_Appeal

Anyone who watches Our War on BBC would be moved to wear one. To possibly sacrifice yourself in war for your country (and im not talking ROI/UK/NI stuff here) when you're barely out of school is the most selfless act anyone can commit.

bobbysands81

K-9 wrote: »

Yeah that's great, didn't really address my point but wasn't expecting it tbh.

Ask me a question and I'll answer it.

bobbysands81

Japer wrote: »

All the European countries had Empires : Belgium, Germany, France, Spain. Portugal etc. We were part of the UK, and Irish people made up a third of the admonistration of India, for example. In the 20th century, we had much to fear from the like of Germany and Russia, and hundreds of thousands of Irish people fought against those empires....if they did not / nobody did, its almost certain your life would be a lot worse.;)

We don't know what Germany and Russia 'might' have done. All we know is that British Governmental policies are/were directly (through murder) and indirectly (through intentional neglect) responsible for the deaths of millions of Irish people.

Yet you'd swear by reading your posts that Britain in the past was a friendly ally and not a murderous regime on this island.

Chuck Stone

marwelie wrote: »

Anyone who watches Our War on BBC would be moved to wear one.

I watched all three and all it did for me was underscore how futile the deaths of those young people were. I find it bemusing how the people of the UK don't demand that their forces be taken out of that hell hole. That's why, for me at least, the poppy represents mass slaughter of ordinary people, often for obscure reasons.

Also, the poppy seems to have been manipulated to 'manufacture consent' as it were. I pity the fool in the public eye in the UK who'd refuse to wear one on principle. Methinks the outcry to conform would be the end of his career.

I'd imagine people like Eamon Holmes, Dara O Brin and Lious Walsh (sp?) are all too aware of the hissy fit the poppy fascists would throw if they failed in their duty to wear the poppy. Further, is it a coincidence that Girls Aloud's Nadine Coyle (of Derry) disappears from the UK at this time of year? Or is it that she refuses want to wear a poppy but knows that the poppy fascists would want her metaphorical head if she dared appear on the British airwaves 'naked' of poppy.

Indeed this poppy fascism is the antithesis of what the people laid down their lives for on the beaches of Normandy and plains of Europe in WWII. For the above reason and the slaughter of my kin-folk on the streets of the north by the British Army I will never wear a poppy.

bobbysands81

Judgement Day wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81544990&postcount=519

You must have difficulty with basic English mate, because that's disgraceful intentional misrepresentation of what I said.

bobbysands81

marwelie wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poppy_Appeal

Anyone who watches Our War on BBC would be moved to wear one. To possibly sacrifice yourself in war for your country (and im not talking ROI/UK/NI stuff here) when you're barely out of school is the most selfless act anyone can commit.

Even more selfless if you're a Volunteer and not gaining financially from it surely?

bobbysands81

marwelie wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poppy_Appeal

Anyone who watches Our War on BBC would be moved to wear one. To possibly sacrifice yourself in war for your country (and im not talking ROI/UK/NI stuff here) when you're barely out of school is the most selfless act anyone can commit.

Maybe some British politicians should watch that and ensure their 'heroes' get the treatment that their sacrifices deserve instead of these people being forced to beg by selling poppies.

Why don't their Government look after them
Properly?

Fratton Fred

Spread wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Spread, my old mucker, how's she cuttin?

I have not once tried to defend empires, or the British one. If I have I would be grateful if you could point to it.

Now, here's a bit of news for you.

No, The British Empire was not the worst. Not the best and not benevolent, but not the worst. Also, no, the Irish were not treated worse than the jews under Hitler or whatever such sob story people like to come up with.

No, the Famine wasn't genocide and yes, a lot of Irish people did quite nicely under the British and carried out their own bit of Empire building. Ask yourself why, for example, the people of Montserrat celebrate St Patrick's day. Not because they love the Irish (Although obviously, the whole world do ) but because they chose that day to rise up against their imperial slave owners who, as like most Irish people, would be celebrating that day.[/QUOTE]

Ungrateful fuckers. After all we did for them. Educated them, taught them Irish, showed them ye olde equivelent of Riverdance (camera cue to row of drunken Irish plantation owners shooting under the dancers' toes) etc.
This is not the way I would think .......... but it is possibly your train of thought. Because (I'm not blaming you) that was the way you were taught Fred!

Even by your standards, that's a load of bollocks.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Even more selfless if you're a Volunteer and not gaining financially from it surely?

All depends if you can use it as a front for drug dealing and fuel smuggling I guess.

Spread

marwelie wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poppy_Appeal

Anyone who watches Our War on BBC would be moved to wear one. To possibly sacrifice yourself in war for your country (and im not talking ROI/UK/NI stuff here) when you're barely out of school is the most selfless act anyone can commit.

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori:
mors et fugacem persequitur virum
nec parcit inbellis iuventae
poplitibus timidove tergo.

You gotta be joking. Unless your brains are downstairs. But that mix of testosterone and hero worship is very powerful. Out here, you join the army to fund your education (which makes you a sort of prostitute) or you can't get a job in civvy street. That's why the rich recruiting grounds are in the Appalachians, north of England etc. and other unemployment black spots.

old hippy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Maybe some British politicians should watch that and ensure their 'heroes' get the treatment that their sacrifices deserve instead of these people being forced to beg by selling poppies.

Why don't their Government look after them
Properly?

Interesting point. One of Britain's biggest exports is weapons. It generates a staggering income for this country - the sellers really do profit from wars and it's an industry that we don't see enough protests about. The most comic episode was when you had an expo coming up just before the last Iraq war and Prince Andrew and his business chums were milling about and almost bumped into the Iraqu delegation! A phenomenal amount of money swirls around the industry and yet when it comes to the grunts - well, we see that they are badly equipped and often treated with contempt by the Govt.It's a big, bad business - and one that I feel deserves more scrutiny than the poppy situation.

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

All depends if you can use it as a front for drug dealing and fuel smuggling I guess.

Give me the names of IRA men with convictions for drug dealing.

Hidalgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Up until the second world war, most countries were run for the benefit of a few. Lets face it, the seven main founding fathers of the US, who signed a deceleration stating that "all men were equal under god" all owned farms and plantations worked by slaves.

Obviously "All Men" only applied to the white christian ones.

Yep, it was only around the turn of the last century that the idea of the state looking after its people began to take shape. And it took a long time to do so.

Prior to that, the idea of aiding people that were sick or destitute was abhorrent as it was believed by the elite that these problems were caused by idleness of the peasants.
Politics was for the elite not the masses.

Japer

bobbysands81 wrote: »

We don't know what Germany and Russia 'might' have done.

Time you at least read up on it so, and educated yourself. In living memory of many people in this country, the Nazis cared precious little for small country or millions of innocent people of a different ethnic group / sexual deviation / whatever. If you saw a concentation camp or read about the Gulags you would at least know a bit about what they did do.

R P McMurphy

Hidalgo wrote: »

Yep, it was only around the turn of the last century that the idea of the state looking after its people began to take shape. And it took a long time to do so.

Prior to that, the idea of aiding people that were sick or destitute was abhorrent as it was believed by the elite that these problems were caused by idleness of the peasants.
Politics was for the elite not the masses.

Thomas Paine ... French revolution ...

LordSutch

This year will be President Michael D Higgins 1st year at the Remembrance day service in St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin, and it will be interesting to see if he bucks the trend of previous ROI Presidents and actually wears a poppy on the big day! Previous years have seen Irish Government ministers, foreign dignitaries, commonwealth leaders, embassy officials + nearly everybody else in the cathedral wearing poppies as a mark of respect on Remembrance Sunday, but the President of the ROI has always abstained, which is of course his/her choice . . . .

Might he actually wear a Poppy & buck the trend?

I doubt it.

GRMA

LordSutch wrote: »

This year will be President Michael D Higgins 1st year at the Remembrance day service in St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin, and it will be interesting to see if he bucks the trend of previous ROI Presidents and actually wears a poppy on the big day! Previous years have seen Irish Government ministers, foreign dignitaries, commonwealth leaders, embassy officials + nearly everybody else in the cathedral wearing poppies as a mark of respect on Remembrance Sunday, but the President of the ROI has always abstained, which is of course his/her choice . . . .

Might he actually wear a Poppy & buck the trend?

I doubt it.

Would be surprised if he does considering the soldiers that that poppy glorifies and remembers came very close to murdering his Da.


Is it not enough that he goes to the remembrance day event or are all those who want o attend to have a poppy forced on them?

LordSutch

GRMA wrote: »

Would be surprised if he does considering the soldiers that that poppy glorifies and remembers came very close to murdering his Da.

Wow, I didn't know that!

GRMA wrote: »

Is it not enough that he goes to the remembrance day event or are all those who want o attend to have a poppy forced on them?

As I said in my previous post "Its his/her choice as president" but given what you have just disclosed about his Dad, It really would be a bloody miricle if he wore one, although after the Queen's now famous 'bow' to the Irish Republican fallen, then I guess anything is possible?

Its a personal choice.

GRMA

LordSutch wrote: »

Wow, I didn't know that!



As I said in my previous post "Its his/her choice as president" but given what you have just disclosed about his Dad, It really would be a bloody miricle if he wore one, although after the Queen's now famous 'bow' to the Irish Republican fallen, then I guess anything is possible?

Its a personal choice.

I'm not entirely sure but I think his dad was sentenced to death at one point. He was definitely in the IRA though.

He ended up in the poorhouse in later years... to die. Michael D Higgins had a very poor childhood.

drumaneen

platinums wrote: »

If however, there were, lets say a *shamrock* that went to support the 3,600 Irish people and their relatives that were affected by those wars then yes I would support that. [/URL]

There is ... See http://rbl-limerick.webs.com. Support away.

DEFTLEFTHAND

The President should wear the poppy imo. We've established the Republic as a country and we should forget about past indiscretions and push forward. I'm not this 'West Brit' character which is often thrown at people like me, My Great grandfather's house was burnt down by the black and tans. He was a doctor who aided injured IRA men. They showed up at the door one night and politely ordered everybody out of the house including my grandmother in her pram.

In the here and now 2012, Ireland and Britain are as close as they've ever been since the 26 counties left the empire. We should strive to continue a strong relationship with our neighbours and remember the Irish who died on the battlefields.

32 counties is not possible at this time, remember that Westminster doesn't want to keep NI just like the majority in the Republic doesn't want to take them.

markesmith

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Give me the names of IRA men with convictions for drug dealing.

Yeah, I want these too. Let's be specific here.

Otherwise you're just blowing smoke up our holes, as always.

BTW I voted that Yes, we should wear poppies.

A gunshot in Sarajevo was heard in Dublin, two years later.

Rantandrave

Do they even sell em over here

nice_very

heres a thought.... if the 30,000 who fought with the british in WW1, had fought instead with the easter 1916 rebels, we could be living in a very different country

K-9

nice_very wrote: »

heres a thought.... if the 30,000 who fought with the british in WW1, had fought instead with the easter 1916 rebels, we could be living in a very different country

There are actually a good few examples of guys who fought in WW1, came back and fought in the War of Independence.

People can change their minds, not have fixed opinions, I know its a revelation in threads like this. Buying a Poppy and a Lily can actually work.

LordSutch

Rantandrave wrote: »

Do they even sell em over here

Yes - See post#331 (page 23) last paragraph.

. . . Dunno for how much longer though, as the elderly ladies who sell them in Dublin and countrywide are getting fewer and fewer as the years pass by. Obviously you can get a poppy at this time of year in any Church of Ireland/ Methodist or Preysbyterian Church (small contribution always welcome), but Poppy sellers on the streets are slowly becoming a thing of the past in the ROI.

maringo

I wear a poppy in memory of a grandfather who was killed at the Somme. Many young Irishmen joined up due to the poverty and deprivation here at the time and the lack of jobs. Their wage meant that their family could eat. I'm sure some of them joined up to stop the Nazis taking over Europe but who knows what motivated them. I'm sure some joined for the adventure but soon discovered the dirty reality of war in the trenches.

caste_in_exile

I always break into fits when I see em.. I think they look like like a bloody bullethole garnished with some cress

thecommietommy

LordSutch wrote: »

Yes - See post#331 (page 23) last paragraph.

. . . Dunno for how much longer though, as the elderly ladies who sell them in Dublin and countrywide are getting fewer and fewer as the years pass by. Obviously you can get a poppy at this time of year in any Church of Ireland/ Methodist or Preysbyterian Church (small contribution always welcome), but Poppy sellers on the streets are slowly becoming a thing of the past in the ROI.

Certainly never seen them been sold in public in the south never mind the six counties. And even in the north, somehow I cann't see them been sold in nationalist areas of Belfast, Tyrone etc Can you imagine trying to sell poppies outside of a GAA ground in say, South Armagh or Dundalk or clubs with names like Na Piarsaigh in Cork !!!!!!

Judgement Day

thecommietommy wrote: »

Certainly never seen them been sold in public in the south never mind the six counties. And even in the north, somehow I cann't see them been sold in nationalist areas of Belfast, Tyrone etc Can you imagine trying to sell poppies outside of a GAA ground in say, South Armagh or Dundalk or clubs with names like Na Piarsaigh in Cork !!!!!!

Continue to delude yourself if it makes you happy but if I can buy one outside a local supermarket - in Enniscorthy - every year....:rolleyes:

thecommietommy

Judgement Day wrote: »

Continue to delude yourself if it makes you happy but if I can buy one outside a local supermarket - in Enniscorthy - every year....:rolleyes:

Interesting, maybe you could post a pic to prove me wrong ....... I'm sure their are lots of Brit army fans in the town where the Battle of Vinegar Hill happened and subsequent massacres, burnings and transportation of the local population.
Continue to delude yourself

Judgement Day

thecommietommy wrote: »

Interesting, maybe you could post a pic to prove me wrong ....... I'm sure their are lots of Brit army fans in the town where the Battle of Vinegar Hill happened and subsequent massacres, burnings and transportation of the local population.
Continue to delude yourself

I don't need a history lesson about Vinegar Hill and 1798 - I had relatives on both sides - and if you care to come down sometime I'll buy you a pint and introduce you to some poppy wearers.

bobbysands81

maringo wrote: »

I wear a poppy in memory of a grandfather who was killed at the Somme. Many young Irishmen joined up due to the poverty and deprivation here at the time and the lack of jobs. Their wage meant that their family could eat. I'm sure some of them joined up to stop the Nazis taking over Europe but who knows what motivated them. I'm sure some joined for the adventure but soon discovered the dirty reality of war in the trenches.

But you're also wearing it commemorating murderers who shot dead and murdered children on the streets of Ireland.

LincolnsBeard

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I find it bemusing how the people of the UK don't demand that their forces be taken out of that hell hole.

We understand how the world works. It must be lovely to bury your head in the sand, believe that the Americans are the real fascists and that the world would operate just wonderfully without them.

It wouldn't.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Indeed this poppy fascism is the antithesis of what the people laid down their lives for on the beaches of Normandy and plains of Europe in WWII. For the above reason and the slaughter of my kin-folk on the streets of the north by the British Army I will never wear a poppy.

Look at you pathetically trying to use WW2 as an excuse to not wear the Poppy. You won't wear the poppy because of the troubles. It has nothing to do with WW2 you worm.

It's just a struggle for you to balance your beliefs knowing that the army you hate did everybody a great service in WW2.

Spread

Judgement Day wrote: »

Continue to delude yourself if it makes you happy but if I can buy one outside a local supermarket - in Enniscorthy - every year....:rolleyes:

Yes, as Brittas Bay gets more common the West Brits are moving south

Spread

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

....................................................................................
.........................................................




Look at you pathetically trying to use WW2 as an excuse to not wear the Poppy. You won't wear the poppy because of the troubles. It has nothing to do with WW2 you worm.

It's just a struggle for you to balance your beliefs knowing that the army you hate did everybody a great service in WW2.

Admittedly they moved at Dunkirk. Now if the British runers could emulate their forefathers ......... they might win some sprints in the Olympics.
Good morning Fred!

bodhrandude

My grandfather fought in the first world war and he was a Leitrim man, I wouldnt begrudge him if he wore a poppy to remember the people he fought with.

GRMA

We owe a bigger debt to the Russians for destroying Nazism. If this was really about the debt we owe to people who stopped Nazism people wouldn't wear a British nationalist symbol which only remembers British soldiers - of all generations, from WW1 till now.

Chuck Stone

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

We understand how the world works.

You do? Is that why the empire collapsed? Is that why ye left Iraq with your tail between your legs? Is that why ye'r getting picked off by the Taliban and will inevitably leave there with your tail between the legs again and have wasted all those young lives for SFA?

It must be lovely to bury your head in the sand, believe that the Americans are the real fascists and that the world would operate just wonderfully without them. It wouldn't.

It must be nice to have the keys to alternate realities. While you're there could you tell me what Britain would have looked like if Hitler didn't attack Russia and instead invaded Britain?

Look at you pathetically trying to use WW2 as an excuse to not wear the Poppy. You won't wear the poppy because of the troubles. It has nothing to do with WW2.

The troubles is one reason of many. I wouldn't wear a Easter Lilly either fwiw. There's too much glorification of conflict and death associated with these symbols imo. Also, I'm not the only one who thinks that poppy fascism has gotten out of hand:

'When you wish to wear yours is your business. Compelling people to wear poppies because YOU think they OUGHT to is precisely the Poppy fascism, or intolerance, that I have complained of in the past.

'On yer bike Stan, with or without a poppy, it’s all your own free choice..Hitler lost the war!'

Jon Snow.

you worm.

Careful now.

It's just a struggle for you to balance your beliefs knowing that the army you hate did everybody a great service in WW2.

Ah yes. Let's forget all the nasty things the BA has done down through the years and focus on WWII. Cherry picking nonsense.

MatthewWC

BX 19 wrote: »

Because an estimated 30,000 people died in WW1 from Ireland. Simple as. It's a symbol remembering those who died, and nothing more.

This man speaks the truth, some **** stirring on here

Yea i'd wear one