Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you? Do you see lizard people as well?

You are right, I now see the light! The lizard people are on this thread

Fratton Fred

round tower huntsman wrote: »

the poppy is a fundraising exercise its not soley about remembering the fallen from ww1. its raises money for ba vets that have servedin every imperialist deed of the empire. you are basically supporting the brit war machine. if you wear a poppy you support the ba's actions in ireland,iraq,afghansitan etc............
no other way of putting it.

And the military who's phone number is the first speed dial number on the Irish defence minister's mobile.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And the military who's phone number is the first speed dial number on the Irish defence minister's mobile.

...the mask is slipped, it appears.

GRMA

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The British participation in the cirrent Afghan war is no different to the Irish presence in Chad.

In fact, the Afghan war is being carried out with the support of the Irish, except of course the Irish army is woefully underfunded and therefore cant play a useful role. If they could, it would take some pressure off the British army and therefore less severely wounded soldiers in Britain.

A few Irish soldiers coming home in body bags might educate a few people AMD stop some of the self righteous bull****.

You want Irish people coming hiome in body bags... stay classy.

As it is your army has sent plenty of Irish back to their homes in coffins

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

...the mask is slipped, it appears.

Still trying to judge me Nodin?

philologos

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I am not claiming you are politicising it, I am saying the red poppy is a politicised symbol... there is a difference.

You failed to answer the question about the white poppy, would you wear one?

I don't see any point to wear the white one. The red one isn't "politicised". It has it's origins in John McCrae's poem In Flanders Fields. I simply remember the dead at war on November 11th and around this time. I use it as an opportunity to think about war and the devastating affects that it might have.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Very few Irish nationalists in Britain and yet I see a politicised symbol so it must be something else

I've worn the poppy on occasion in Ireland prior to moving here.

round tower huntsman wrote: »

the poppy is a fundraising exercise its not soley about remembering the fallen from ww1. its raises money for ba vets that have servedin every imperialist deed of the empire. you are basically supporting the brit war machine. if you wear a poppy you support the ba's actions in ireland,iraq,afghansitan etc............

no other way of putting it.

I really don't mind giving a little to support ex-servicemen. That in and of itself doesn't mean that I applaud every war that the British Army have participated or fought in contrary to the popular armchair-republican position we're getting on this thread. There's no logical relation between wearing a poppy and automatically agreeing with every single conflict, or war that the British Army has fought in.

By the by, technically I'm funding the British war machine every time I pay tax. I guess to be really consistent I should just leave here?

Japer

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You are right, I now see the light! The lizard people are on this thread

Dub in Glasgow, good job you can see Lizard people. If it were not for the good UK armed forces who you denigrate, it is safe to assume Glasgow would be a very different - and worse - place under German or Russian rule.
Many a good and decent person in the UK armed forces, inc some of the hundreds of thousands of Irish who volunteered, has given their tomorrows so that places like Glasgow today as as good as they are. You would do well to understand that.

Fratton Fred

GRMA wrote: »

You want Irish people coming hiome in body bags... stay classy.

As it is your army has sent plenty of Irish back to their homes in coffins

The Irish government voted in favour of the Afghanistan action. Looks to me as though they are partly to blame for every isaf death over there, yet they don't want to send their own army in any meaningful numbers.

Sound fair to you?

A Dub in Glasgo

philologos wrote: »

I don't see any point to wear the white one

So that is a no then?

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Irish government voted in favour of the Afghanistan action.

That was 2001. NATO has been making a balls of it since. Would you be one of the 4% of British people who strongly approve of British involvement in Afghanistan?

Against a backdrop of headlines communicating the problems and costs of the conflict, the BES supplement asked a representative sample of respondents the simple question: 'Do you strongly approve, approve, disapprove, or strongly disapprove of Britain’s involvement in the War in Afghanistan?'

The results were decidedly negative: only 4 per cent of the over 20,000 respondents strongly endorsed British participation and another 18 per cent simply approved. In contrast, nearly one-third (30 per cent) disapproved of Britain's contribution to the military operation and more than one-in-five (21 per cent) strongly disapproved. Approximately one quarter (27 per cent) reported that they 'didn't know' whether they approved or disapproved.

http://www.idcr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/03_11.pdf

It's really quite pathetic how you're trying foist responsibility onto the Irish for British Soldiers coming home from Afghanistan in body bags.

Lelantos

round tower huntsman wrote: »

the poppy is a fundraising exercise its not soley about remembering the fallen from ww1. its raises money for ba vets that have servedin every imperialist deed of the empire. you are basically supporting the brit war machine. if you wear a poppy you support the ba's actions in ireland,iraq,afghansitan etc............
no other way of putting it.

Actually, another way of putting it is, absolute bull. Sad post, but its symptomatic of the thinking of some on here

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It's really quite pathetic how you're trying foist responsibility onto the Irish for British Soldiers coming home from Afghanistan in body bags.

Why?

They voted to send people to war. As much as it may hurt your self righteousness, of course Ireland is partly responsible.

Japer

The Irish government has a sad reputation for letting others do the dirty work, be that standing up to Nazism, standing up to Communism, or liberating Kuwait from the Iraquis.
However many Irish people - hundreds of thousands - are proud to have volunteered to serve in UK uniforms, some paying the ultimate price, inc one soldier from Co. Down only about a week ago, killed in Afghanistan.
Do not forget there are dozens of countries helping Afghanistan, at the request of the govt there. Nobody likes to see dead + injured come home though. Personally I think the world is a safer place thanks to the UK / US, and we shelter behind their umbrella as usual.

Nodin

Japer wrote: »

............. Personally I think the world is a safer place thanks to the UK / US, and we shelter behind their umbrella as usual.

There are people from Guatamala to Iraq who would disagree.

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They voted to send people to war.

That was 2001. Maybe you've missed the almighty balls the US/UK et al have been making of it since then?

The total value of American reconstruction aid to Afghanistan in the fiscal 2002 budget that the Congress approved amounted to $942.1 million. That was probably $500 million short of what was needed that year, but analysts might have argued that the country could not absorb more money at that time. The initial fiscal 2003 request, however, totaled just $151 million, with foreign military financing reduced to a laughable $1 million.

Bill Taylor, who was coordinating assistance to Afghanistan for the State Department, was outraged. He made his views clear in an unclassified e-mail distributed widely throughout the government: "Our request for FY 03 is $151 million. This is not serious. ... FMF goes from $57 million to $1 million? On this we train the ANA [Afghan National Army] next year?. . . [the] FY 03 OHDACA [overseas humanitarian, disaster, and civic aid-a DOD program] request of $12 million had been reduced to $6 million ... can this be right? ... Zal [Khalilzad] is here and I just showed him the chart[listing the FY 03 request]. His response was the right one: `You're not serious.'"

Source

Ireland is partly responsible.

You really are clutching at straws.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Irish government voted in favour of the Afghanistan action. Looks to me as though they are partly to blame for every isaf death over there, yet they don't want to send their own army in any meaningful numbers.

Sound fair to you?

And do the funds just go to those who served in Afghanistan? No, they do not.

Japer

Nodin wrote: »

There are people from Guatamala to Iraq who would disagree.

In Iraq there were none of them to be seen when the US / UK rolled in to Bagdad, without any casulties. No US or UK soldiers fell then, the only thing that fell were statues of Saddam, their leader who had previously invaded Kuwait years previously. You will never get 100% agreement on everything from everyone around the world. By respecting the Poppy appeal you are respecting fallen and wounded soldiers, sailors and airmen from many different wars, without necessarily supporting the wars themselves.

Chuck Stone

Japer wrote: »

In Iraq there were none of them to be seen when the US / UK rolled in to Bagdad, without any casulties. No US or UK soldiers fell then, the only thing that fell were statues of Saddam, their leader who had previously invaded Kuwait years previously. You will never get 100% agreement on everything from everyone around the world. By respecting the Poppy appeal you are respecting fallen and wounded soldiers, sailors and airmen from many different wars, without necessarily supporting the wars themselves.

I fucking hate that word 'fallen' when it's used to describe violent deaths. It's just more Orwellian language used to mask the brutality of war from the public.

They haven't fallen - they had their bodies ripped to shreds by shrapnel and bullets and spilled their young blood in foreign fields for obscure reasons.

Japer

Most of the fallen and injured served in those foreign fields so that you and others can live in relative peace and prosperity.

Chuck Stone

Japer wrote: »

Most of the fallen and injured served in those foreign fields so that you and others can live in relative peace and prosperity.

Those who've had their bodies and brains ripped to shreds by shrapnel and bullets since WWII? No.

You're just regurgitating the propaganda you've been fed and expecting others to swallow it.

Indeed the British and Americans have done their fair share of destroying democratic movements around the globe rather than respecting people's freedom to run their own affairs.

See here.

gurramok

Japer wrote: »

Most of the fallen and injured served in those foreign fields so that you and others can live in relative peace and prosperity.

Thanks, explain how BA soldiers serving in NI secured Irish freedom?

Japer

Of course since independence our own government has a proud history in standing up to Nazism, standing up to Communism, helping to liberate Kuwait from the Iraquis, helping the govt of Afghanistan, trying to reduce the supply of heroin from manufacruring countries, going after Bin Laden etc.

Japer

gurramok wrote: »

Thanks, explain how BA soldiers serving in NI secured Irish freedom?

Hundreds of thousands of Irish people have volunteered to serve with UK forces....from when back in the day we were part of the UK..... to WW2 to help save Europe from Nazism.... to the troubles when they helped prevent terrorism / helped support the police force + rule of the law .

I'd prefer the freedom in these islands than to live under Nazism or under Stalin or his successors.

Chuck Stone

I think I'll watch the film 'Bloody Sunday' that's starting on ITV3+1 now.

Not that I need reminding of the massacre the murdering degenerates in the BA perpetrated against innocent civilians on the Streets of Derry that day.

Brave men indeed.

Japer

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I think I'll watch the film 'Bloody Sunday' that's starting on ITV3+1 now.

really? Thats the 510th time. No wonder you are indoctrinated. You need to move on / get a life.

If one car crashes and kills its driver, you do not ban all cars from the road.;)

Chuck Stone

Japer wrote: »

really? Thats the 510th time. No wonder you are indoctrinated. You need to move on / get a life.

Says the poppy advocate who can't stop bringing up decades past wars.

Facepalm.

Nodin

Japer wrote: »

Most of the fallen and injured served in those foreign fields so that you and others can live in relative peace and prosperity.

We weren't going to be invaded by Iraq, Palestine, Kenya, Nigeria, Burma, Mayalasia, India, Sudan, Egypt, Aden, Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, Uganda, Benin, Sierra Leone, Gambia, Tanganika, Somalia, Eritrea, Fiji, Papua and the rest. They were invaded by the British, which denied them peace and prosperity.

You will never get 100% agreement on everything from everyone around the world. By respecting the Poppy appeal you are respecting fallen and wounded soldiers, sailors and airmen from many different wars

Why should I respect the people involved in this?

Interrogation under torture was widespread. Many of the men were anally raped, using knives, broken bottles, rifle barrels, snakes and scorpions. A favourite technique was to hold a man upside down, his head in a bucket of water, while sand was rammed into his rectum with a stick. Women were gang-raped by the guards. People were mauled by dogs and electrocuted. The British devised a special tool which they used for first crushing and then ripping off testicles. They used pliers to mutilate women's breasts. They cut off inmates' ears and fingers and gouged out their eyes. They dragged people behind Land Rovers until their bodies disintegrated. Men were rolled up in barbed wire and kicked around the compound.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

or this?

The documents, released by Malaysian sources ahead of a judicial review related to the massacre, also reveal how a Metropolitan police investigation in 1970 into the allegations was "terminated" because an incoming Conservative government did not want the darker aspects of Britain's colonial past exposed.
The plantation workers were shot in cold blood by a 16-man patrol of Scots Guards in December 1948. Many of the victims' bodies were found to have been mutilated and their village of Batang Kali was burned to the ground. No weapons were found when the village was searched during a military operation against Chinese communists in the post-second world war Malayan emergency.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/09/malaya-massacre-villagers-coverup
or in the hundreds of other incidents over the last 70 years?

Lelantos

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I think I'll watch the film 'Bloody Sunday' that's starting on ITV3+1 now.

Not that I need reminding of the massacre the murdering degenerates in the BA perpetrated against innocent civilians on the Streets of Derry that day.

Brave men indeed.

What time is the Omagh bombing film on at?

Japer

Nodin wrote: »

We weren't going to be invaded by Iraq blah blah blah

but you think it was ok to let Iraq invade and rape little Kuwait?

Chuck Stone

Lelantos wrote: »

What time is the Omagh bombing film on at?

See: Whataboutery.

Regardless, nobody is out collecting money for the perpetrators of the Omagh Bomb unlike how poppy proceeds have the chance of falling in the laps of BA murderers.

Japer

Lelantos wrote: »

What time is the Omagh bombing film on at?

+1.
or the film on Bloody Friday, when the PIRA bombed shoppers in Belfast. Or the film on the Le Mon restaurant bombing, or the Darkley church atrocity?

The vast majority of the many millions of people of all religions and none who who served in the UK's armed forces were decent people. Not all, but most. I respect their sacrifices. More than a few were Irish people, neighbours, relations friends . You do not have to support the wars they fought in to respect those brave people.

DonLimon

Japer wrote: »

but you think it was ok to let Iraq invade and rape little Kuwait?

Does this mean I have to take off my Saddam Hussein badge as well?

Japer

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Regardless, nobody is out collecting money for the perpetrators of the Omagh Bomb

I was at a concert once + a bucket went around for the IRA / their supporters.

The difference is the Omagh bombers and PIRA are terrorist movements, and do / did not have the support of elected governments. Extremist republicans actually murdered police + army in this (26 county ) state.

Lelantos

Chuck Stone wrote: »

See: Whataboutery.

Regardless, nobody is out collecting money for the perpetrators of the Omagh Bomb unlike how poppy proceeds have the chance of falling in the laps of BA murderers.

I wonder where all the sales of easter lilly's went over the years then?

Chuck Stone

Japer wrote: »

but you think it was ok to let Iraq invade and rape little Kuwait?

The invasion of Kuwait by Iraq that the US said it had no issue with?

Journalist Edward Mortimer wrote in the New York Review of Books in November 1990

It seems far more likely that Saddam Hussein went ahead with the invasion because he believed the US would not react with anything more than verbal condemnation. That was an inference he could well have drawn from his meeting with US Ambassador April Glaspie on July 25, and from statements by State Department officials in Washington at the same time publicly disavowing any US security commitments to Kuwait, but also from the success of both the Reagan and the Bush administrations in heading off attempts by the US Senate to impose sanctions on Iraq for previous breaches of international law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie

Japer wrote: »

The difference is the Omagh bombers and PIRA are terrorist movements, and do / did not have the support of elected governments.

State violence good, non-state violence bad is it?

Neat packages for simple minds.

gurramok

Japer wrote: »

I was at a concert once + a bucket went around for the IRA / their supporters.

The difference is the Omagh bombers and PIRA are terrorist movements, and do / did not have the support of elected governments. Extremist republicans actually murdered police + army in this (26 county ) state.

And you have no problem with your army(BA) murdering Irish kids in NI, sums up your warped view that state forces can kill at will no matter what age the victims were.

GRMA

Lelantos wrote: »

I wonder where all the sales of easter lilly's went over the years then?

Vast majority went to the NGA which looks after the graves and monuments of Irish patriots.

billybudd

Japer wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands of Irish people have volunteered to serve with UK forces....from when back in the day we were part of the UK..... to WW2 to help save Europe from Nazism.... to the troubles when they helped prevent terrorism / helped support the police force + rule of the law .

I'd prefer the freedom in these islands than to live under Nazism or under Stalin or his successors.

actually it was mostly to support their family as there was no jobs or income to be made here during that time.

Lelantos

GRMA wrote: »

Vast majority went to the NGA which looks after the graves and monuments of Irish patriots.

No, incorrect. The NGA is a supposed non party affiliated organisation, but it was run by IRA members, so that wasn't true. The vast majority of sales went to Sinn Féin & other organizations.

GRMA

Lelantos wrote: »

No, incorrect. The NGA is a supposed non party affiliated organisation, but it was run by IRA members, so that wasn't true. The vast majority of sales went to Sinn Féin & other organizations.

SF have/had their own lilies. So did the Workers party. However the NGA sold by far the most. Party members are not allowed to be on the committee in the NGA.

Spread

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Was there?

It's funny, according to Nodin, no one has a problem with UN missions.

Unless it's the British, obviously. It's a shame the Irish don't have the balls to actually use their army properly then the poppy wouldn't be so relevant.

If the mighty British Army couldn't defeat the IRA how do you think they'll beat insurrections that are better armed. FFS try and clean up some of the third world slums in your own country before tidying up the rest of the world. If the money spent on foreign adventures was diverted towards education the greater good would have been served and the per capita IQ raised a little.
The paranoia that emerges from Little Englanders is not healthy for the British psyche.

Lelantos

GRMA wrote: »

SF have/had their own lilies. So did the Workers party. However the NGA sold by far the most. Party members are not allowed to be on the committee in the NGA.

Oh, that has never been true, puppets sitting on the committee, all you have to do is see who the "associate" members are.

GRMA

Lelantos wrote: »

Oh, that has never been true, puppets sitting on the committee, all you have to do is see who the "associate" members are.

Where did they get the money to maintain graves and monuments then?

LordSutch

Bohemian1890 wrote: »

IMO any Irish person who wears it is not worthy of calling themselves Irish.

Well then, that wipes out the entire Protestant population of the South for a start, who must be something other than Irish in your estimation?

Thing is though, that even Sinn Fein has moved on and have made the decision to let those who wish to commorate the Irish dead from the two world wars to do so without ridicule, God knows even Martin McGuinness & Co don't keep banging the drum about the brit loving poppy wearing 'West Brits' wearing their Poppies, and yet there are those here in this very thread who are soo bitter, so anti British, and so Anti the memory of our very own Irish WWI & WWII fallen, as to be obnoxious in the extreme.

If people want to wear poppies at this time of year then let us, I will have mine on today (poppy seller at my church). and I will keep it in my lapel from now until after the 11th, always have done always will do, and I have never encountered any problems on the streets of Dublin, Dun Laoghaire or Blackrock for that matter!

Its a personal choice, and in my case I have family connections to both World Wars (as many other Irish people do) hence my decision to commemorate their memory by wearing my poppy, whilst also making a small donation/contribution to the Irish Poppy appeal fund in Dublin.

billybudd

LordSutch wrote: »

Well then, that wipes out the entire Protestant population of the South for a start, who must be something other than Irish in your estimation?

Thing is though, that even Sinn Fein has moved on and have made the decision to let those who wish to commorate the Irish dead from the two world wars to do so without ridicule, God knows even Martin McGuinness & Co don't keep banging the drum about the brit loving poppy wearing 'West Brits' wearing their Poppies, and yet there are those here in this very thread who are soo bitter, so anti British, and so Anti the memory of our very own Irish WWI & WWII fallen, as to be obnoxious in the extreme.

If people want to wear poppies at this time of year then let us, I will have mine on today (poppy seller at my church). and I will keep it in my lapel from now until after the 11th, always have done always will do, and I have never encountered any problems on the streets of Dublin, Dun Laoghaire or Blackrock for that matter!

Its a personal choice, and in my case I have family connections to both World Wars (as many other Irish people do) hence my decision to commemorate their memory by wearing my poppy, whilst also making a small donation/contribution to the Irish Poppy appeal fund in Dublin.

I doubt the proud nationalist protestant people do.

LordSutch

Do what?

billybudd

LordSutch wrote: »

Do what?

Wear a poppy, and furthermore being a protestant in Ireland does not mean you are automatically aligned to the crown or even have a family heritage to it, it is a religion and not a national identity.

philologos

Bohemian1890 wrote: »

Ask any honest, law abiding Nationalist that lived in a Nationalist area in the north of Ireland during the troubles should it be worn by an Irish person and you'd see what they'd tell you. IMO any Irish person who wears it is not worthy of calling themselves Irish.

That sounds a touch bigoted to be honest. Just because other Irish people hold a different opinion to you means that they can't be Irish in earnest. I guess I should just go stateless then

By the by, who says that people who live in Republican areas of the North should dictate what I and other Irish people do? That's rather a bizarre notion if you ask me .

As I've mentioned at least 3 times, the poppy has broader significance than glorifying British military action as you and others have ignorantly claimed.

billybudd wrote: »

Wear a poppy, and furthermore being a protestant in Ireland does not mean you are automatically aligned to the crown or even have a family heritage to it, it is a religion and not a national identity.

I know quite a few Irish people who would identify themselves as supporting the Irish republic who would wear it.

I think what LordSutch is getting at is that Church of Ireland churches in Ireland (both Northern Ireland and the Republic) have held Remembrance Day services and have had poppies sold at their churches. Remembrance Sunday is a part of the church calendar.

The other logical question to ask is who the heck are you to tell people what to do? Since when did you become the ultimate definition of who is Irish?

LordSutch

billybudd wrote: »

Wear a poppy, and furthermore being a protestant in Ireland does not mean you are automatically aligned to the crown or even have a family heritage to it, it is a religion and not a national identity.

Correct, although Christian denomination would be a better term than religion.

Fratton Fred

Spread wrote: »

If the mighty British Army couldn't defeat the IRA how do you think they'll beat insurrections that are better armed. FFS try and clean up some of the third world slums in your own country before tidying up the rest of the world. If the money spent on foreign adventures was diverted towards education the greater good would have been served and the per capita IQ raised a little.
The paranoia that emerges from Little Englanders is not healthy for the British psyche.

From an Irishman living in the states, priceless.

Who are the IRA again? Are they the ones that wanted a united Ireland?

Yeah, looks like they won alright.