Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

billybudd

philologos wrote: »

That sounds a touch bigoted to be honest. Just because other Irish people hold a different opinion to you means that they can't be Irish in earnest. I guess I should just go stateless then

By the by, who says that people who live in Republican areas of the North should dictate what I and other Irish people do? That's rather a bizarre notion if you ask me .

As I've mentioned at least 3 times, the poppy has broader significance than glorifying British military action as you and others have ignorantly claimed.


I know quite a few Irish people who would identify themselves as supporting the Irish republic who would wear it.

I think what LordSutch is getting at is that Church of Ireland churches in Ireland (both Northern Ireland and the Republic) have held Remembrance Day services and have had poppies sold at their churches. Remembrance Sunday is a part of the church calendar.

The other logical question to ask is who the heck are you to tell people what to do? Since when did you become the ultimate definition of who is Irish?

Where did i tell people what to do? or what defines a Irish person? What defines a Irish person is being a citizen of Ireland and not what church they go to or what they celebrate.

The point i was making was that you can not lump everyone into the same catergory.

bobbysands81

Japer wrote: »

I was at a concert once + a bucket went around for the IRA / their supporters.

The difference is the Omagh bombers and PIRA are terrorist movements, and do / did not have the support of elected governments. Extremist republicans actually murdered police + army in this (26 county ) state.

According to the United States definition of a terrorist state Britain is one.

Nodin

Japer wrote: »

but you think it was ok to let Iraq invade and rape little Kuwait?

No. Whats that to do with the 2nd Iraq war?

Do you think it was ok to torture Greeks who wanted to be independent?
Do you think it was ok to gun down and torture Africans who wanted to be independent?

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

Well then, that wipes out the entire Protestant population of the South for a start, who must be something other than Irish in your estimation?.

Please don't project your politics onto the protestant population.

lelantos wrote:

No, incorrect. The NGA is a supposed non party affiliated organisation, but it was run by IRA members, so that wasn't true. The vast majority of sales went to Sinn Féin & other organizations.

You've a source for that?

philologos

Nodin wrote: »

Please don't project your politics onto the protestant population.

That's not the point. It's not about projecting anything. In the Anglican liturgical calendar in Ireland there is Remembrance Sunday. Are you saying by holding a Remembrance Sunday service in a CofI church every year that it is "projecting politics" onto their congregation, or is it just a time to remember the dead at war every year?

I think that people who criticise this generally don't understand the role that this plays in the CofI in particular.

Lelantos

Nodin wrote: »

Please don't project your politics onto the protestant population.



You've a source for that?

See above posts, associate members are Sinn fein & even sitting committe members have spoken at IRA & sinn fein meetings & gatherings. For anyone to say there is not a link..well its just not true.

Nodin

Lelantos wrote: »

See above posts, associate members are Sinn fein & even sitting committe members have spoken at IRA & sinn fein meetings & gatherings. For anyone to say there is not a link..well its just not true.

You stated

The NGA is a supposed non party affiliated organisation, but it was run by IRA members, so that wasn't true. The vast majority of sales went to Sinn Féin & other organizations.

Those are very specific allegations.

Do you have a source to show that (a) the NGA was run by IRA members and (b) that the "vast majority" of monies raised went to "Sinn Fein & other organizations".

indioblack

mattjack wrote: »

Only eight more days left , thank God and the spaghetti monster above for the poll results we will receive.Jesus wep't them Germans have a lot to answer for.

Not the Germans - just people who pleasure themselves with their sense of outrage - a storm in a teacup.

ejmaztec

Are we there yet?

indioblack

Spread wrote: »

Admittedly they moved at Dunkirk. Now if the British runers could emulate their forefathers ......... they might win some sprints in the Olympics.
Good morning Fred!

Dunkirk? This thread is certainly getting around. What would you rather have happened at Dunkirk - something like the Alamo?

indioblack

Spread wrote: »

If the mighty British Army couldn't defeat the IRA how do you think they'll beat insurrections that are better armed. FFS try and clean up some of the third world slums in your own country before tidying up the rest of the world. If the money spent on foreign adventures was diverted towards education the greater good would have been served and the per capita IQ raised a little.
The paranoia that emerges from Little Englanders is not healthy for the British psyche.

Just as the American army couldn't defeat the VietCong? There was a helluva lot of collateral damage there - and they used everything short of nuclear weapons.

Lelantos

Nodin wrote: »

You stated



Those are very specific allegations.

Do you have a source to show that (a) the NGA was run by IRA members and (b) that the "vast majority" of monies raised went to "Sinn Fein & other organizations".

Again, look at the associate members of the organisation, see where the members of the groups meet, see who goes to those meetings. I'm guessing you're going to tell us next that Provo groups never made money from drugs & the NGA are our version of the women's institute.

gurramok

philologos wrote: »

By the by, who says that people who live in Republican areas of the North should dictate what I and other Irish people do? That's rather a bizarre notion if you ask me .

Its grossly offensive to commemorate, fund and praise soldiers who murdered their loved ones on the streets of Nationalist and Republican communities in NI.

GRMA

Why won't people wear a white poppy which remembers all victims of war? Like Frankie Boyle did www.anphoblacht.com/contents/22423

And not a British Nationalist symbol.

GRMA

Lelantos wrote: »

Again, look at the associate members of the organisation, see where the members of the groups meet, see who goes to those meetings. I'm guessing you're going to tell us next that Provo groups never made money from drugs & the NGA are our version of the women's institute.

So that's a No then, you're just making things up.

mattjack

ejmaztec wrote: »

Are we there yet?

If you say that one more time, this thread will go right back to the start.

indioblack

gurramok wrote: »

Its grossly offensive to commemorate, fund and praise soldiers who murdered their loved ones on the streets of Nationalist and Republican communities in NI.

Perhaps these people can be identified, their offences confirmed - and then they can be individually be excluded from any commemoration or funding.

gurramok

indioblack wrote: »

Perhaps these people can be identified, their offences confirmed - and then they can be individually be excluded from any commemoration or funding.

They haven't as none have been convicted of murder, a big cover up. Most of the perpetrators would be now retired soldiers, fully receiving their army pensions as if they did nothing wrong. Of course if your suggestion did actually happen, it would be a step forward in reconciliation on the poppy issue.

philologos

gurramok wrote: »

Its grossly offensive to commemorate, fund and praise soldiers who murdered their loved ones on the streets of Nationalist and Republican communities in NI.

People don't have a right not to be offended. The primary purpose of the Remembrance Sunday is to remember those who have lost their lives in armed conflict. If you're going to get offended over a few people deciding to remember the dead at war on November 11th or the nearest Sunday, and to wear a red poppy due to a poem written by a Canadian in 1915 that's your prerogative.

Don't expect everyone around you to conform to your expectations. People disagree with you, and this is why tolerance is welcome. Agreeing to disagree is one of the most valuable tools in Western society.

billybudd

philologos wrote: »

That's not the point. It's not about projecting anything. In the Anglican liturgical calendar in Ireland there is Remembrance Sunday. Are you saying by holding a Remembrance Sunday service in a CofI church every year that it is "projecting politics" onto their congregation, or is it just a time to remember the dead at war every year?

I think that people who criticise this generally don't understand the role that this plays in the CofI in particular.

A question, would you wear a double badge that remembers Irish & British victims of the war, one a lilly and one a poppy, side by side?

ejmaztec

mattjack wrote: »

If you say that one more time, this thread will go right back to the start.

(I've lost count of how many times it's already gone back to the start, it's been going round and round in circles for days):eek:

gurramok

philologos wrote: »

People don't have a right not to be offended. The primary purpose of the Remembrance Sunday is to remember those who have lost their lives in armed conflict. If you're going to get offended over a few people deciding to remember the dead at war on November 11th or the nearest Sunday, and to wear a red poppy due to a poem written by a Canadian in 1915 that's your prerogative.

Don't expect everyone around you to conform to your expectations. People disagree with you, and this is why tolerance is welcome. Agreeing to disagree is one of the most valuable tools in Western society.

The primary purpose as you describe is not the case. Its used for modern conflicts Britain has been engaging in like NI hence the problem with it in an Irish context.

LordSutch

billybudd wrote: »

A question, would you wear a double badge that remembers Irish & British victims of the war, one a lilly and one a poppy, side by side?

I might?

Although (personally speaking) the poppy by itself commemorates all those Allied & Irish who died in 1916, both at the Somme & at the Rising.

billybudd

Cool, maybe the poppy does, but like it or not it will never be mass worn here dues to our history.

I heard that suggestion on radio this morning and thought it was a interesting idea in that it may open a new chapter of mutual respect and friendship and people may be more open to wear it as it wouldnt have just one stigma attached to it.

Or maybe not.

philologos

gurramok wrote: »

The primary purpose as you describe is not the case. Its used for modern conflicts Britain has been engaging in like NI hence the problem with it in an Irish context.

Simply put from having seen observances in Ireland on the subject, I'd have to disagree with you. The poppy has broader significance. I've explained that to you and others multiple times, so I don't see much more fruit in resaying that again and again.

billybud: Honestly, I and others don't care. It doesn't matter if most people in Ireland join in. That's not what it is about. I haven't been trying to convince people to wear it because I don't care what they do on the matter. What I do care about is pure ignorance every year being spouted about it.

philologos

billybudd wrote: »

A question, would you wear a double badge that remembers Irish & British victims of the war, one a lilly and one a poppy, side by side?

The red poppy already does what I need it to do. It's based on a Canadian's poem after WW1 and it suitably reflects the futility of war. Why do I need to add more symbols when the red poppy is enough?

LordSutch

billybudd wrote: »

Cool, maybe the poppy does, but like it or not it will never be mass worn here dues to our history.

Interestingly it was sold here on a massive scale up until the 50s I think? (the details are in a previous poppy thread from two or three years ago), and apparently there were more poppies sold on the streets of Dublin than Glasgow & Manchester combined, Reason: 50.000 Irish fallen in the two World Wars, hence their relatives bought the poppies to remember them . . . . .

Not many immediate relatives alive today hence the dwindling poppy sellers/ poppy wearers on the streets today (ROI).

gurramok

philologos wrote: »

Simply put from having seen observances in Ireland on the subject, I'd have to disagree with you. The poppy has broader significance. I've explained that to you and others multiple times, so I don't see much more fruit in resaying that again and again.

You've been proved wrong yet again and you fail to read posts(or listen).
https://donations.britishlegion.org.uk/RBLDonation/?gclid=CManoo64tbMCFUqV4QodznUApw&mpch=ads

Whether adapting a home to make it suitable for a disabled young soldier, providing a free dedicated handyperson service for those unable to carry out small repairs and minor alterations in their homes or providing support such as pension advice or bereavement counselling - our welfare work is a lifeline for thousands of serving and ex-Service people and their families.

We couldn't do it without help from people like you. Please make a donation today, every gift really does make a difference.

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/poppy-appeal

Money raised goes to support our welfare work for the Armed Forces community.

Who we help
We help serving members of the Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force
We also help ex-Service men and women, their carers and families
Close to 9 million people are eligible to call on us for help
We aim to help the 500,000 most in need
Half the people we help are below retirement age

Beneficiaries' are people who satisfy any of the following:

Any man or woman who is currently serving as a Regular, Reserve or Auxiliary member of the Royal Navy, Army or Royal Air Force and who is aged 16 years or over and has received seven days' pay.
Any man or woman who has previously received seven days' pay as a Regular, Reserve or Auxiliary member of the Royal Navy, Army or Royal Air Force, and is aged 16 years or over.

Yes, lets donate to the welfare for the Bloody Sunday murderers.:mad:

Chuck Stone

gurramok wrote: »

You've been proved wrong yet again and you fail to read posts(or listen).

True to form.

Yes, lets donate to the welfare for the Bloody Sunday murderers.:mad:

The BA members who directed the massacre that day were decorated by the British Queen for it.

Decorated for directing a murder gang.

Lovely.

indioblack

gurramok wrote: »

They haven't as none have been convicted of murder, a big cover up. Most of the perpetrators would be now retired soldiers, fully receiving their army pensions as if they did nothing wrong. Of course if your suggestion did actually happen, it would be a step forward in reconciliation on the poppy issue.

No doubt there are secrets kept by the military and previous govenments concerning NI over the decades. Equally, there will be other groups and organisations involved who have their own share of dirty linen.
It would be neat to say "draw a line under the past" - but that would be daft considering that this thread is about commemorating events that mainly occured in the past.
I suspect that we will be here this time next year.
Perhaps it would be more productive to avoid using the poppy as a vehicle to address this issue - like Northern Ireland it is very emotive.

Dozen Wicked Words

indioblack wrote: »

No doubt there are secrets kept by the military and previous govenments concerning NI over the decades. Equally, there will be other groups and organisations involved who have their own share of dirty linen.
It would be neat to say "draw a line under the past" - but that would be daft considering that this thread is about commemorating events that mainly occured in the past.
I suspect that we will be here this time next year.
Perhaps it would be more productive to avoid using the poppy as a vehicle to address this issue - like Northern Ireland it is very emotive.

There is no need to suspect, its a definite, its here EVERY year, same posters, same posts.

Jimoslimos

philologos wrote: »

The red poppy already does what I need it to do. It's based on a Canadian's poem after WW1 and it suitably reflects the futility of war. Why do I need to add more symbols when the red poppy is enough?

I don't believe for one minute that the futility of war can be truly represented by a charity that continues to subsidise the cost of war.

billybudd

philologos wrote: »

Simply put from having seen observances in Ireland on the subject, I'd have to disagree with you. The poppy has broader significance. I've explained that to you and others multiple times, so I don't see much more fruit in resaying that again and again.

billybud: Honestly, I and others don't care. It doesn't matter if most people in Ireland join in. That's not what it is about. I haven't been trying to convince people to wear it because I don't care what they do on the matter. What I do care about is pure ignorance every year being spouted about it.

Well by not caring your making yourself part of that ''pure ignorance'' .

philologos

billybudd wrote: »

Well by not caring your making yourself part of that ''pure ignorance'' .

Think about it this way, by not caring about whether or not you wear it, I'm saying I'll tolerate you not wearing it, it's not a huge concern to me.

It means I've no role interfering with your decision because genuinely I don't care if you do or don't wear it.

On the same note, my wearing the poppy doesn't involve you or gurramok for example. I already have clear reasons to wear the red poppy which I've thought through. In that sense I care little about what you think of my decision.

My non-caring on this issue allows the greatest freedom for others to think and decide for themselves. I don't care if you or others don't and that's a good thing.

indioblack

dooferoaks wrote: »

There is no need to suspect, its a definite, its here EVERY year, same posters, same posts.

For some reason I've found this years thread interesting - perhaps I'm being converted!
My annoyance with this business is the almost unspoken obligation on tv presenters to wear a poppy - even when reporting from the States!

billybudd

philologos wrote: »

Think about it this way, by not caring about whether or not you wear it, I'm saying I'll tolerate you not wearing it, it's not a huge concern to me.

It means I've no role interfering with your decision because genuinely I don't care if you do or don't wear it.

On the same note, my wearing the poppy doesn't involve you or gurramok for example. I already have clear reasons to wear the red poppy which I've thought through. In that sense I care little about what you think of my decision.

My non-caring on this issue allows the greatest freedom for others to think and decide for themselves. I don't care if you or others don't and that's a good thing.[/QUOTE


Fair enough, the reason i would not wear one is not because im Irish, its because i dont support murderous regimes who torture and inflict their might on less advantaged countries regardless if they did good things in 2 world wars.

Latchy

I've often attended and marched in the remembrance Sunday parade in London along with hundreds of other ex- Irish service men and women who served in Irish Defence Forces or British Forces and some who also have served in both .The Irish contribution from north and south of Ireland in the first and second world wars and conflicts since is well documented and it's right and fitting that people wish to remember all those who fought and died for the greater freedom of all on these islands and further afield .

billybudd

Latchy wrote: »

I've often attended and marched in the remembrance Sunday parade in London along with hundreds of other ex- Irish service men and women who served in Irish Defence Forces or British Forces and some who also have served in both .The Irish contribution from north and south of Ireland in the first and second world wars and conflicts since is well documented and it's right and fitting that people wish to remember all those who fought and died for the greater freedom of all on these islands and further afield .

I march once a year for the brave Mau-mau rebellion brothers and sisters who lost their lives in the 50's Kenya.

Latchy

billybudd wrote: »

I march once a year for the brave Mau-mau rebellion brothers and sisters who lost their lives in the 50's Kenya.

That will also be incorporated into the Remembrance Sunday parade as will other conflicts in former British colony's ( for those who fought on the British side of course ) .

Chuck Stone

philologos wrote: »

My non-caring on this issue....

Good ol' Phil.

29 posts in this thread but claims he doesn't care about the issue.

It must hurt his brain continuously squaring those circles.

True to form.

Latchy

BX 19 wrote: »

Because an estimated 30,000 people died in WW1 from Ireland. Simple as. nothing more.

Yes .

It's a symbol remembering those who died, and nothing more.

Yes it's all about remembering the millions who died .

Snickers Man

marwelie wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poppy_Appeal

Anyone who watches Our War on BBC would be moved to wear one. To possibly sacrifice yourself in war for your country (and im not talking ROI/UK/NI stuff here) when you're barely out of school is the most selfless act anyone can commit.

You're talking about the Hitler Jugend here, I take it?

Lelantos

GRMA wrote: »

So that's a No then, you're just making things up.

When the NGA have no associate members who are Sinn fein members, when the NGA stop talking about international politics, when the NGA stop claiming to be unaffiliated with any party, yet show up at every IRA or Sinn fein commemoration, gathering & campaign trail, then maybe you can say I'm making things up, until then, its you that's not being truthful.

indioblack

billybudd wrote: »

philologos wrote: »

Think about it this way, by not caring about whether or not you wear it, I'm saying I'll tolerate you not wearing it, it's not a huge concern to me.

It means I've no role interfering with your decision because genuinely I don't care if you do or don't wear it.

On the same note, my wearing the poppy doesn't involve you or gurramok for example. I already have clear reasons to wear the red poppy which I've thought through. In that sense I care little about what you think of my decision.

My non-caring on this issue allows the greatest freedom for others to think and decide for themselves. I don't care if you or others don't and that's a good thing.[/QUOTE


Fair enough, the reason i would not wear one is not because im Irish, its because i dont support murderous regimes who torture and inflict their might on less advantaged countries regardless if they did good things in 2 world wars.

So why would a murderous regime want to do good things?

Snickers Man

Latchy wrote: »

I've often attended and marched in the remembrance Sunday parade in London along with hundreds of other ex- Irish service men and women who served in Irish Defence Forces or British Forces and some who also have served in both .The Irish contribution from north and south of Ireland in the first and second world wars and conflicts since is well documented and it's right and fitting that people wish to remember all those who fought and died for the greater freedom of all on these islands and further afield .

You're not "remembering"; you're "commemorating". There's a difference.

The verbs "to commemorate" and "to forget" are not antonyms.

billybudd

Latchy wrote: »

Yes .

Yes it's all about remembering the millions who died .

Well no, for every poppy sold today a portion is given to soldiers injured in active duty in todays ''wars'', so march all you want and remember all the Irish who gave up their life for a free europe all you want, but this thread is about the wearing of a poppy and all that this involves.

Latchy

Snickers Man wrote: »

You're not "remembering"; you're "commemorating". There's a difference.

The verbs "to commemorate" and "to forget" are not antonyms.

Oh really ...

Well dude I have friends who died in conflicts and while I don't need you to point out the difference , I'll be personally '' remembering '' them at the '' commemoration '' .

billybudd wrote: »

Well no, for every poppy sold today a portion is given to soldiers injured in active duty in todays ''wars'', so march all you want and remember all the Irish who gave up their life for a free europe all you want, but this thread is about the wearing of a poppy and all that this involves.

Wearing of a poppy is to remember those millions who have died in active service , not just of Irish people but of 'All ' who died in service . The portion of money given to soldiers injured in active duty in today's ''wars'' is a separate issue

billybudd

Latchy wrote: »

Oh really ...

Well dude I have friends who died in conflicts and while I don't need you to point out the difference , I'll be personally '' remembering '' them at the '' commemoration '' .

Wearing of a poppy is to remember those millions who have died in active service , not just of Irish people but of 'All ' who died in service . The portion of money given to soldiers injured in active duty in today's ''wars'' is a separate issue

Yes i know, seperate issue? how so, should i wear half a poppy for the half who died in a noble war?

Hidalgo

Japer wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands of Irish people have volunteered to serve with UK forces....from when back in the day we were part of the UK..... to WW2 to help save Europe from Nazism.... to the troubles when they helped prevent terrorism / helped support the police force + rule of the law .

I'd prefer the freedom in these islands than to live under Nazism or under Stalin or his successors.

Because the culmination of Stalin's grand plan was to invade Ireland was it??

Never realized we were that important in the grand scheme of things

gurramok

Latchy wrote: »

Oh really ... I'll be personally '' remembering '' them at the '' commemoration '' .

Will you be remembering the Bloody Sunday soldiers at the commemoration?