Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

Latchy

flanno_7hi wrote: »

Surely respect comes from within and by giving money to said charity you are helping a cause you believe but by wearing the poppy are you not just rubbing a lot of people's noses in something?

There must be many people in UK and elsewhere who will go out to buy a poppy and only doing so because they believe it's to remember and help those injured or maimed in battle but I well understand why some people there and in Ireland might see somebody wearing it as 'rubbing peoples nose in it' to .

philologos

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Good ol' Phil.

29 posts in this thread but claims he doesn't care about the issue.

It must hurt his brain continuously squaring those circles.

True to form.

How about you read my posts properly first?

The primary reason I posted on this thread is not to convince you to wear the poppy. I don't care if you do or if you don't. That's the issue I don't care about. I couldn't give a fiddlesticks as to what your choice is.

What I do care about is when people make entirely ignorant claims about the significance of the poppy as a symbol.

GRMA

Del.Monte wrote: »

There's more than enough reasons here - and uncomfortable too - http://theirishobserver.blogspot.ie/2010/11/serial-killers-murder-of-sir-norman.html and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporals_killings to keep on stoking anti-nationalist sentiment amongst Unionists but what's the point? Time to move on and, yes, the IRA did act in the name of Republicans even a la carte ones like gurramok.

What does this thread have to do with the IRA?

flanno_7hi

Latchy wrote: »

There must be many people in UK and elsewhere who will go out to buy a poppy and only doing so because they believe it's to remember and help those injured or maimed in battle but I well understand why some people there and in Ireland might see somebody wearing it as 'rubbing peoples nose in it' to .

That's the thing though. Here in the UK I am a guest in their country and as such i respect their reasons and right to buy/wear a poppy. People wearing the poppy will remind others to buy one.
In Ireland wearing a Poppy is inflammatory and as such I think it mostly (obviously an unsubstantiated opinion) gets peoples backs up. Surely the reason to wear one is to get more money for the charity whereas in Ireland I believe all it does is upset people?


Off topic a bit but did anyone see Frankie Boyle was wearing the white one on J. Ross's show? Was it Jon Snow who complained about people basically being forced to wear one on UK tv?

A Dub in Glasgo

flanno_7hi wrote: »

Off topic a bit but did anyone see Frankie Boyle was wearing the white one on J. Ross's show? Was it Jon Snow who complained about people basically being forced to wear one on UK tv?

Yes I did and well done to Boyle. A kick in the teeth for the (red) poppy 'fascists'


Why I refuse to buy into politics of the poppy brand

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9629864/Poppy-fascism-row-reignites-over-accusations-appeal-has-been-hijacked-by-politicians-and-B-list-celebrities.html

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/24616-jon-snow-attacks-poppy-fascism

Latchy

flanno.That's the thing though. Here in the UK I am a guest in their country and as such i respect their reasons and right to buy/wear a poppy. People wearing the poppy will remind others to buy one.

I to am a guest in the UK and like you ,I will see it from the point of view of the person who may /may not have military family history but nevertheless will wear the poppy , as is their right to do so .It's become the norm now to see celebs ( including Irish ones ) wearing poppy's on British tv chat shows and they are probably just pinned on their lapels without been asked if they want them on.

flanno_7hi wrote: »

In Ireland wearing a Poppy is inflammatory and as such I think it mostly (obviously an unsubstantiated opinion) gets peoples backs up. Surely the reason to wear one is to get more money for the charity whereas in Ireland I believe all it does is upset people?

It upsets people in Ireland because of the history and events of British occupation of the Republic and some still see as ( also open to debate) the occupation of Northern Ireland .

I think it goes without saying that it's important to respect the opinions of people who find it upsetting and while there has been some change in Ireland as a whole to remember the Irish souls who perished on the battlefields of WW1/2 and conflicts at home , as we can see , it's still a very delicate matter .

Hilly Bill

Wearing a poppy is no big deal, its the same as wearing that little sticker you get after giving money to a collector for the guide dogs for the blind, you either wear it or you dont. I would buy one and fully support it but wouldnt wear one , nor do i wear those little stickers.
The only gripe i have is when everyone on tv seems to be forced to wear one for PC reasons.

Big Respect to Jon Snow.

Snickers Man

Here's one reason to think about.

At a time when much of the British Army was recruited in Ireland, here's what they were up to.

And it was because of those actions that Britain got embroiled in the "Great War for Civilisation" [sic] and that other one.

Judgement Day

Snickers Man wrote: »

Here's one reason to think about.

At a time when much of the British Army was recruited in Ireland, here's what they were up to.

And it was because of those actions that Britain got embroiled in the "Great War for Civilisation" [sic] and that other one.

Slow news day. Talking of clutching at straws to back up an argument. :rolleyes:

PS When are we (British) going to get compensation for being invaded by Romans, Vikings, Normans etc?

LordSutch

flanno_7hi wrote: »

In Ireland wearing a Poppy is inflammatory and as such I think it mostly (obviously an unsubstantiated opinion) gets peoples backs up. Surely the reason to wear one is to get more money for the charity whereas in Ireland I believe all it does is upset people?

Glad you ended that with a questionmark. I have never ever had any negative remarks passed about my Poppy on the streets of Dublin, and I haven't heard of any other incidents in recent years either, although I do know an elderly poppy seller who gets an earful from one old fella also in his 80s, who always makes a point of having a go at her.

flanno_7hi wrote: »

Off topic a bit but did anyone see Frankie Boyle was wearing the white one on J. Ross's show? Was it Jon Snow who complained about people basically being forced to wear one on UK tv?

White poppies have been around for ages, they are also a personal choice to signify 'Peace, Not War' which is nice, and as regards Jon Snow, well he has taken a personal stance on not wearing a poppy on TV because of what has been described as 'Poppy Fascism' - which means that people are forced to wear poppies on TV, whether they like it or not!

On this issue I agree with Jon Snow 100%.

Nodin

MagicSean wrote: »

The thread is about wearing a poppy, not buying one. There is surely a difference. If you buy one from a charity set up to fund British Army soldiers is that not completely different to wearing one to show respect for those that died in World War 1? I think it is.

I wouldn't object to supporting the soldiers on the ground anyway. A soldier has little choice in where he is sent. I think most are doing what they think is right. For many of them the army is all they know so why would they think any different to what they are told?

'They were only following orders'? Seriously?

philologos

flanno_7hi wrote: »

That's the thing though. Here in the UK I am a guest in their country and as such i respect their reasons and right to buy/wear a poppy. People wearing the poppy will remind others to buy one.
In Ireland wearing a Poppy is inflammatory and as such I think it mostly (obviously an unsubstantiated opinion) gets peoples backs up. Surely the reason to wear one is to get more money for the charity whereas in Ireland I believe all it does is upset people

I don't believe it really upsets that many in Ireland. If it did I've seen no evidence of it anyway. I wore it one year while a student in NUI Maynooth. Nobody batted an eyelid.

This people get upset at it lark is a nonsense.

A Dub in Glasgo

LordSutch wrote: »

White poppies have been around for ages, they are also a personal choice to signify 'Peace, Not War' .

Red poppy = War, not peace then?

golden lane

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Red poppy = War, not peace then?

red poppy's grew in france......very appropriate...

flanno_7hi

philologos wrote: »

I don't believe it really upsets that many in Ireland. If it did I've seen no evidence of it anyway. I wore it one year while a student in NUI Maynooth. Nobody batted an eyelid.

This people get upset at it lark is a nonsense.

I've seen my mother get upset about it, altho the british army used to raid her house in the middle of the night in the 70s so I guess she has a reason.

billybudd

Nodin wrote: »

'They were only following orders'? Seriously?

reminds me of a beautiful south song about the war ''They would have shot at rabbits if thats what they've been told''

bobbysands81

WileyCoyote wrote: »

No, this is a thread about the the elevent hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month of 1918, and showing respect to all those who died in that conflict, showing respect like those in Enniskillen did in 1987 when a bunch of yellow cowards blew them up!

No it's not.

You need to read up on what the poppy signifies and where the monies raised from selling it go.

It celebrates soldiers that have murdered Irish kids on Irish streets.

Why would any Irishman want to commemorate these murderers?

Why doesn't their own country look after them seeing as they put their lives on the line instead of them having to beg?

billybudd

Latchy wrote: »

Every major Army in History has behaved as such but that doesn't make it right ,no of course not but the poppy as a symbol means 'Remembrance ' .

Countrys like China and Japan will have remembrance events ie Nanking / Nagasaki but it's It just tragic and equally sad that the victims of such terrible crimes against humanity don't have something similar on a large scale which represents all peoples across the world .,Remembrance Sunday is not a day for military hype and glory ,on the contary it's plain and simple to remember the falling who gave their life's on the field of battle

Good point

Equally good point .




Obiously people on here who won't wear a poppy because of the funding it brings to ex-british service personnel are entitled to feel as they do and that is to be respected while also remembering that those in the main who do , have no agenda of sorts but simply wear one out of respect .

So Germany should have a remembrance day for its falling dead who gave their life on the field of battle?

A Dub in Glasgo

golden lane wrote: »

red poppy's grew in france......very appropriate...

So Red poppy = War, not peace then?

Fratton Fred

billybudd wrote: »

reminds me of a beautiful south song about the war ''They would have shot at rabbits if thats what they've been told''

They shot a lot of sheep in Cyprus apparently.

An old boss of mine was stationed in Nicosia during the uprising. He was doing national service as a rock ape.

The airfield had small explosive charges on the perimeter triggered ny trip wires, anything that set them off generally got cut to shreds by a handful of teenagers with machine guns. In the morning, there would usually be an irate farmer banging on the CO 's door wanting to know what happened to his sheep.

As the compensation was about twice the market rate for a sheep, there was mo shortage of targets for the recruits to shoot at.

billybudd

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They shot a lot of sheep in Cyprus apparently.

An old boss of mine was stationed in Nicosia during the uprising. He was doing national service as a rock ape.

The airfield had small explosive charges on the perimeter triggered ny trip wires, anything that set them off generally got cut to shreds by a handful of teenagers with machine guns. In the morning, there would usually be an irate farmer banging on the CO 's door wanting to know what happened to his sheep.

As the compensation was about twice the market rate for a sheep, there was mo shortage of targets for the recruits to shoot at.

Dont think the BA where too choosey in who they shot at:pac:


What was the going rate for an innocent catholic? less than the sheep i bet.

Chuck Stone

billybudd wrote: »

What was the going rate for an innocent catholic? less than the sheep i bet.

I'm not sure about the rates but you might earn a decoration by the British Queen.

Colonel Wilford told the [Saville] tribunal he saw or heard nothing which led him to believe paratroopers were out of control at any stage on Bloody Sunday. "Nor did I see any shameful and disgraceful acts," he said.

The Bloody Sunday families have always regarded it as an insult that Colonel Wilford was decorated by the Queen shortly after Bloody Sunday.

www.u.tv/BloodySunday

Thoroughly depraved.

Courtesy Flush

thecommietommy wrote: »

After all it's for a foreign army, I don't see anyone wearing an emblem for the French, American, Spanish army. Ok some say it's for charity for injured British soldiers, but surely if they join up it's up to the British govt to properly look after them when they are injured and not pestering people expecting charity ?

First world war. Wasnt a foreign army then. Many Irish men died in the trenches fighing for Britain.

ODriscoll

Courtesy Flush wrote: »

First world war. Wasnt a foreign army then. Many Irish men died in the trenches fighing for Britain.

That is a extremely simplistic overview of the history.

Many Irish soldiers in the British army of ww1 were in fact former Irish volunteers.

The Irish Volunteers were formed specifically to help force through Home Rule. A physical resistance against the UVF and Westminster (Britain) if necessary.
Thousands of Irish volunteers died in the mud of WW1, did so for Ireland and most certainly not for Britain. Many Irish volunteers fought and died because they imagined they were fighting for Ireland. They were cynically used by the Westminster Government who promised them home rule for Ireland. A promise that Westminster broke.
We should remember and never forget that act of cynical betrayal.

A Irish free state and later Republic, ignored the role of the Irish volunteers, and shamelessly left their memory to the likes of Kevin Myers to simplify and perverse. Myers has encouraged people like you to believe in a simple and perverse selective account of history.
You are certainly not paying those thousands of Irish men any respect in your ignorance or bias.

grenache

I have no objection to anyone wearing a poppy....nothing wrong with commemorating the brave actions of the ordinary combat soldier in the field.

But the whole irony of Britain in WWI fighting to free "little Belgium and Holland" really grates me....considering they wouldn't do the same for little Ireland.

philologos

flanno_7hi wrote: »

I've seen my mother get upset about it, altho the british army used to raid her house in the middle of the night in the 70s so I guess she has a reason.

Except the red poppy as a symbol isn't related to that?

MagicSean

Nodin wrote: »

'They were only following orders'? Seriously?

Who was? Are you trying to make my comment out to be justifying genocide? I'm talking about the soldiers on the ground who are simply fighting to stay alive. You can try make it all about the minority of bad soldiers who do bad things if you want. I won't be arguing with such a pathetic attempt at misdirection

billybudd

philologos wrote: »

Except the red poppy as a symbol isn't related to that?

Philologos, it is used as the symbol for a charity that uses the proceeds to help with current and past BA personnel who were injured in active duty, surely as a rationale person you can see and understand how that symbol can inflame and upset people who have been affected by the long troubled history between our two nations.

philologos

billybudd wrote: »

Philologos, it is used as the symbol for a charity that uses the proceeds to help with current and past BA personnel who were injured in active duty, surely as a rationale person you can see and understand how that symbol can inflame and upset people who have been affected by the long troubled history between our two nations.

The symbol doesn't specifically glorify British troops. I've no problem supporting retired / injured servicemen with my money.

I'm just saying I've seen no evidence of people getting upset due to wearing it in Ireland. And even if they did, that's not a good enough reason to stop me remembering the war dead every year. There's nothing morally wrong about it.

thecommietommy

grenache wrote: »

I have no objection to anyone wearing a poppy....nothing wrong with commemorating the brave actions of the ordinary combat soldier in the field.

But the whole irony of Britain in WWI fighting to free "little Belgium and Holland" really grates me....considering they wouldn't do the same for little Ireland.

Yes as the expression goes, if WW1 was about the freedom of small nations how come the British empire was bigger at the end of it than before it.

lukesmom

No chance would I wear a poppy. It's a British tradition and I'm republican Irish.

Piliger

I wear a poppy every year. For the tens of thousands of Irish men who died in both world wars. For the soldiers who died saving us from Nazi tyranny, Irish/American/British. For the soldiers who died in those wars ... for reasons beyond fundamentalist political dogma.

summerskin

lukesmom wrote: »

No chance would I wear a poppy. It's a British tradition and I'm republican Irish.

So do you not take Bank Holidays? They're a British tradition too.

Nodin

MagicSean wrote: »

Who was? Are you trying to make my comment out to be justifying genocide? I'm talking about the soldiers on the ground who are simply fighting to stay alive. You can try make it all about the minority of bad soldiers who do bad things if you want. I won't be arguing with such a pathetic attempt at misdirection

When the orders are to be brutal, what then?

Nodin

philologos wrote: »

The symbol doesn't specifically glorify British troops. I've no problem supporting retired / injured servicemen with my money.
.

...despite what they may have been doing or involved in. But you won't wear a lilly.

Latchy

billybudd wrote: »

So Germany should have a remembrance day for its falling dead who gave their life on the field of battle?

You'll find the a debate on the subject here .

http://ask.metafilter.com/137803/Les-we-forget

Fratton Fred

thecommietommy wrote: »

Yes as the expression goes, if WW1 was about the freedom of small nations how come the British empire was bigger at the end of it than before it.

Because they were on the winning side. The empire may have grown as a result, but that wasn't what the war was about.

It's like saying people only go to Haiti to get a suntan not build homes for people.

Lelantos

Nodin wrote: »

When the orders are to be brutal, what then?

Then you join the IRA & do what they do best.

lukesmom

summerskin wrote: »

So do you not take Bank Holidays? They're a British tradition too.

I take IRISH bank holidays. You do realise Britain have different dates of bank holidays dont you??? So that was a pretty pointless reply to my post.

Nodin

Lelantos wrote: »

Then you join the IRA & do what they do best.

Whats that to do with the discussion?

By the way earlier, if you recall, you stated

lelantos wrote:

The NGA is a supposed non party affiliated organisation, but it was run by IRA members, so that wasn't true. The vast majority of sales went to Sinn Féin & other organizations.

Do you have a source/sources to show that (a) the NGA was run by IRA members and (b) that the "vast majority" of monies raised went to "Sinn Fein & other organizations"?

Do you have some proof, or will you do the decent thing and withdraw the allegations?

philologos

Nodin wrote: »

...despite what they may have been doing or involved in. But you won't wear a lilly.

Lily is attached to the specific 1916 rising which I don't believe was fruitful or productive. The poppy commemorates the war dead on a more general level. It's worn in many countries not just Britain.

I don't need to support every war to wear one. I notice you've not responded to my previous question to you about the CofI and it's liturgical calendar acknowledging Remembrance Sunday.

Nodin

lukesmom wrote: »

I take IRISH bank holidays. You do realise Britain have different dates of bank holidays dont you??? So that was a pretty pointless reply to my post.

It's a new variation on the usual

'I won't buy a poppy to support British service personnell'

'Ahh but HITLER'.

Nodin

philologos wrote: »

Lily is attached to the specific 1916 rising which I don't believe was fruitful or productive. The poppy commemorates the war dead on a more general level. It's worn in many countries not just Britain.

I don't need to support every war to wear one. I notice you've not responded to my previous question to you about the CofI and it's liturgical calendar acknowledging Remembrance Sunday.

Hiding behind a church cuts no ice with me. Its to remember all those dead in WW1, II and subsequent conflicts. If you think kicking Greeks, Asians and Africans around the place for the Empire was "fruitful or productive" there's little hope for ye.

Lelantos

lukesmom wrote: »

I take IRISH bank holidays. You do realise Britain have different dates of bank holidays dont you??? So that was a pretty pointless reply to my post.

We share common days, and council staff can take bank hols & public hols are different. Not to mention the civil servants also take the Kings Bday & Empire Day hols

summerskin

lukesmom wrote: »

I take IRISH bank holidays. You do realise Britain have different dates of bank holidays dont you??? So that was a pretty pointless reply to my post.

But you do realise that the tradition of "Bank Holidays" started in Britain in the 19th century, ergo it is a British tradition, one which the Irish copied some time later.

Your reply, therefore, is pointless....

philologos

Nodin wrote: »

Hiding behind a church cuts no ice with me. Its to remember all those dead in WW1, II and subsequent conflicts. If you think kicking Greeks, Asians and Africans around the place for the Empire was "fruitful or productive" there's little hope for ye.

Can you answer my question as I asked a few pages ago?

Lelantos

Nodin wrote: »

Whats that to do with the discussion?

By the way earlier, if you recall, you stated



Do you have a source/sources to show that (a) the NGA was run by IRA members and (b) that the "vast majority" of monies raised went to "Sinn Fein & other organizations"?

Do you have some proof, or will you do the decent thing and withdraw the allegations?

Wherever i lived as a child & thru life the sale of easter lillies was always stated by the sellers as being in support of the political prisoners & sinn fein.
The NGA are a non party affilliated group.....except they are present at sinn fein & ira memorials & gatherings. They have associate members of sinn fein & ira but no other political party.
Now, its a bit of an oxymoron, a bitter provo asking a citizen of Ireland to do the decent thing is it not?

Nodin

philologos wrote: »

Can you answer my question as I asked a few pages ago?

This?

Are you saying by holding a Remembrance Sunday service in a CofI church every year that it is "projecting politics" onto their congregation, or is it just a time to remember the dead at war every year?

.....by having an official day to remember all those British service personell who died in WW1, II and subsequent conflicts, its putting one foot in the door of politics and acting as an agent of the state, IMO.

Nodin

Lelantos wrote: »

Wherever i lived as a child & thru life the sale of easter lillies was always stated by the sellers as being in support of the political prisoners & sinn fein.
The NGA are a non party affilliated group.....except they are present at sinn fein & ira memorials & gatherings. They have associate members of sinn fein & ira but no other political party.
Now, its a bit of an oxymoron, a bitter provo asking a citizen of Ireland to do the decent thing is it not?

Again, you seem to be confusing hearsay, guff and nonsense as proof. We'll try again. You said

The NGA is a supposed non party affiliated organisation, but it was run by IRA members, so that wasn't true. The vast majority of sales went to Sinn Féin & other organizations.

Do you have a source/sources to show that

(a) the NGA was run by IRA members

(b) that the "vast majority" of monies raised went to "Sinn Fein & other organizations"?

Do you have some proof, or will you do the decent thing and withdraw the allegations?

Death and Taxes

Lelantos wrote: »

Wherever i lived as a child & thru life the sale of easter lillies was always stated by the sellers as being in support of the political prisoners & sinn fein.
The NGA are a non party affilliated group.....except they are present at sinn fein & ira memorials & gatherings. They have associate members of sinn fein & ira but no other political party.
Now, its a bit of an oxymoron, a bitter provo asking a citizen of Ireland to do the decent thing is it not?[/QUOTE]

Im not on the same side of this arguement as Nodin, but those comments were uncalled for!