English refereeing's darkest day?

Pudsy33

Clattenburg got some decisions incorrect, but on both sides. The Torres sending off was wrong. Then again, he should have been red carded earlier. Also united should have had a penalty with the handball. The offside goal was his not his call.

PhlegmyMoses

niallo27 wrote: »

See you were doing great there until the end, a lot of them decisions were when liverpool were flying it under Rafa and I think under Rafa liverpool got a lot of decisions more than there fair share. I don't see why people can't discuss it without mentioning JFK or 911 or other ****e.

I'll tell you what I believe. It is only the decisions that people choose to care about and discuss that get remembered. It doesn't make your theories, based on supposition and subjective opinions on decisions any more legitimate.

United are box office. Their biggest rivals haven't won the league in 20-odd years and have a huge number of fans. Some of these fans need something, anything, to cling to.

Let us follow this through to its logical conclusion. Who is engineering these decisions for United? How is this happening?

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I'll tell you what I believe. It is only the decisions that people choose to care about and discuss that get remembered. It doesn't make your theories, based on supposition and subjective opinions on decisions any more legitimate.

United are box office. Their biggest rivals haven't won the league in 20-odd years and have a huge number of fans. Some of these fans need something, anything, to cling to.

Let us follow this through to its logical conclusion. Who is engineering these decisions for United? How is this happening?

I think perhaps refs are subconsciously being influenced by one of the biggest brands in the world in a billion euro industry, they are only human after all.

Will I Amnt

niallo27 wrote: »

When was the last time a ref cost utd a win or a draw, im not trying to stir, I just can't remember it.

Just because it didn't cost points doesn't mean anything.
If United didn't get back into the game the other night against Braga then we could point to that and the answer would be...a few days ago.
But we did get back into, went on and won it so it's not talked about much.
If we were of a lower standard, didn't win so much, it would be more noticeable and would cost us more points.

niallo27

cambo2008 wrote: »

Just because it didn't cost points doesn't mean anything.
If United didn't get back into the game the other night against Braga then we could point to that and the answer would be...a few days ago.
But we did get back into, went on and won it so it's not talked about much.
If we were of a lower standard, didn't win so much, it would be more noticeable and would cost us more points.

Ok when was the last time before the braga game so, I'll give you that one.

PhlegmyMoses

niallo27 wrote: »

I think perhaps refs are subconsciously being influenced by one of the biggest brands in the world in a billion euro industry, they are only human after all.

This is just how the argument has evolved throughout the years. What was the excuse in the 90s when we weren't a huge brand but were still getting called out as the darlings of officialdom?

Oh right, the FA was corrupt. But now that sounds a bit mental so it has become some kind of ethereal meta-theory about psychology and the subconscious.

Despite this incredible insight into the human psyche, the people who generally espouse this nonsense are fans of rival clubs or those directly impacted. Yet they don't question their own motives for making these claims. Neutral observers rarely make these kinds of comments.

Occam's Razor: Rival fans are a bit bitter and one-eyed in their commentary on this issue.

homerjay2005

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Other bad decisions today, Sterling not being sent off for a second booking and Torres not seeing red for the foul on Cleverly.

Chelsea got a fair few decisions in their favour today, Torres should have walked his first yellow, Evans was fouled for what should have been a pen at 2-1 and Luiz handballed at 2-2 in the box. yes the goal was offside but another ref could have sent off Torres quickernand awarded two pena to united.

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

This is just how the argument has evolved throughout the years. What was the excuse in the 90s when we weren't a huge brand but were still getting called out as the darlings of officialdom?

Oh right, the FA was corrupt. But now that sounds a bit mental so it has become some kind of ethereal meta-theory about psychology and the subconscious.

Despite this incredible insight into the human psyche, the people who generally espouse this nonsense are fans of rival clubs or those directly impacted. Yet they don't question their own motives for making these claims. Neutral observers rarely make these kinds of comments.

Occam's Razor: Rival fans are a bit bitter and one-eyed in their commentary on this issue.

Who said the FA were corrupt. As for your point about who spouts this nonsense of course it's rivals fans who make most noise, why would a neutral care that much, if Madrid got the balance of decisions in Spain I wouldn't say much about it as I'm a neutral.

djPSB

Top ten looks like this:

Chelsea-22
Mancs-21
City-21
Spurs-17
Everton-16
Arsenal-15
Fulham-14
West Ham-14
WBA-14
Newcastle-13

But should be like this only for the in competencies of the officials.

Chelsea-23
City-21
Mancs-19
Spurs-17
Everton-15
Fulham-14
West Ham-14
WBA-14
Arsenal-13
Newcastle-13

That's a big difference.

Will I Amnt

niallo27 wrote: »

Ok when was the last time before the braga game so, I'll give you that one.

There was more decisions went against us today than for us.
Torres should have gone earlier. Ivanovich could easily have gone at the start. Luiz handball was a penalty. Cahill pulling down a man in the box could have been a penalty.

It's a pointless argument. If we lost today I'd be kicking up a fuss over them decisions.
We won so you're kicking up a fuss about the ones that went our way.
That's the way of the world.

PhlegmyMoses

djPSB wrote: »

Top ten looks like this:

Chelsea-22
Mancs-21
City-21
Spurs-17
Everton-16
Arsenal-15
Fulham-14
West Ham-14
WBA-14
Newcastle-13

But should be like this only for the in competencies of the officials.

Chelsea-23
City-21
Mancs-19
Spurs-17
Everton-15
Fulham-14
West Ham-14
WBA-14
Arsenal-13
Newcastle-13

That's a big difference.

Why are United the only people losing points here? No other bad decisions this season for other teams? This is the kind of one-eyed ridiculousness I'm talking about.

SantryRed

djPSB wrote: »

Top ten looks like this:

Chelsea-22
Mancs-21
City-21
Spurs-17
Everton-16
Arsenal-15
Fulham-14
West Ham-14
WBA-14
Newcastle-13

But should be like this only for the in competencies of the officials.

Chelsea-23
City-21
Mancs-19
Spurs-17
Everton-15
Fulham-14
West Ham-14
WBA-14
Arsenal-13
Newcastle-13

That's a big difference.

I'm assuming you're a Liverpool fan. This is one of the most ridiculous posts ever on here.

Liam O

djPSB wrote: »

Top ten looks like this:

Chelsea-22
Mancs-21
City-21
Spurs-17
Everton-16
Arsenal-15
Fulham-14
West Ham-14
WBA-14
Newcastle-13

But should be like this only for the in competencies of the officials.

Chelsea-23
City-21
Mancs-19
Spurs-17
Everton-15
Fulham-14
West Ham-14
WBA-14
Arsenal-13
Newcastle-13

That's a big difference.

no it's not.

Does anyone believe if Hernandez had been called offside United would have just stopped attacking too? 15 minutes with a 2 man advantage and the 2 most prolific goalscorers in the league in recent years and a player in form like Hernandez? United would have scored another if they needed to imo.

djPSB

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Why are United the only people losing points here? No other bad decisions this season for other teams? This is the kind of one-eyed ridiculousness I'm talking about.

Arsenal and Everton lose points too??

Will I Amnt

djPSB wrote: »

Top ten looks like this:

Chelsea-22
Mancs-21
City-21
Spurs-17
Everton-16
Arsenal-15
Fulham-14
West Ham-14
WBA-14
Newcastle-13

But should be like this only for the in competencies of the officials.

Chelsea-23
City-21
Mancs-19
Spurs-17
Everton-15
Fulham-14
West Ham-14
WBA-14
Arsenal-13
Newcastle-13

That's a big difference.

Do this up yourself or what??

PhlegmyMoses

niallo27 wrote: »

Who said the FA were corrupt. As for your point about who spouts this nonsense of course it's rivals fans who make most noise, why would a neutral care that much, if Madrid got the balance of decisions in Spain I wouldn't say much about it as I'm a neutral.

I feel like you're missing my point here. I'll try to make it clear.

When United get a favourable decision: Referees are subconsciously being influenced.

When, say, Wigan get a favourable decision: This happens to everyone.

A bit of self-reflection is needed.

niallo27

cambo2008 wrote: »

There was more decisions went against us today than for us.
Torres should have gone earlier. Ivanovich could easily have gone at the start. Luiz handball was a penalty. Cahill pulling down a man in the box could have been a penalty.

It's a pointless argument. If we lost today I'd be kicking up a fuss over them decisions.
We won so you're kicking up a fuss about the ones that went our way.
That's the way of the world.

No I don't agree, the decisions your talking about are 50/50s . Them handballs are rarely given so you can't be surprised it wasn't given. Cahills was the same. They are never given. Cleverly probably saved Torres in fairness.

djPSB

cambo2008 wrote: »

Do this up yourself or what??

Yeah, based on the wrong offside decisions from the weekend. It's not that complex.

PhlegmyMoses

djPSB wrote: »

Arsenal and Everton lose points too??

Oh right, so it's based purely off today. And based on your subjective opinions of decisions.

A bit pointless, no?

Paul Tergat

That 'table' thing is one of the funniest things ive seen posted. WP sir.

Further lol at the 'not complex'. Ahahahaha

PhlegmyMoses

djPSB wrote: »

Yeah, based on the wrong offside decisions from the weekend. It's not that complex.

You're telling us.

Will I Amnt

djPSB wrote: »

Yeah, based on the wrong offside decisions from the weekend. It's not that complex.

What about the rest of the games??
And did you go through every game this weekend and analyse every decision made by a referee??
If not you're little project is bullshìt.
Actually it is anyway.

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I feel like you're missing my point here. I;ll try to make it clear.

When United get a favourable decision: Referees are subconsciously being influenced.

When, say, Wigan get a favourable decision: This happens to everyone.

A bot of self-reflection is needed.

I think if you look at balance of decisions Wigan get for and against, it probably evens out to human error on the parts of the refs, I think if you look at the balance of decision when it come to utd then human error is less likely.

djPSB

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Oh right, so it's based purely off today. And based on your subjective opinions of decisions.

A bit pointless, no?

No today and yesterday.

Arsenal got a goal which should not have counted.

United got a goal which should not have counted.

Liverpool got a goal which should have counted.

Not based on my opinion. Based on the rules of the game and video evidence.

djPSB

cambo2008 wrote: »

What about the rest of the games??
And did you go through every game this weekend and analyse every decision made by a referee??
If not you're little project is bullshìt.
Actually it is anyway.

Nah didn't go through every game.

Just the important ones.

You think the facts are fictional or what?

PhlegmyMoses

djPSB wrote: »

No today and yesterday.

Arsenal got a goal which should not have counted.

United got a goal which should not have counted.

Liverpool got a goal which should have counted.

Not based on my opinion. Based on the rules of the game and video evidence.

Okay. But why just this weekend? Please don't try to barrel ahead with this. you surely see that it lacks substance.

Quazzie

djPSB wrote: »

No today and yesterday.

Arsenal got a goal which should not have counted.

United got a goal which should not have counted.

Liverpool got a goal which should have counted.

Not based on my opinion. Based on the rules of the game and video evidence.

I get what you're saying, but did you look at the Arsenal game. They were really on top of QPR when they scored, and with seven minutes left plus stoppage, can you guarantee that the wouldn't have scored anyway?

Will I Amnt

niallo27 wrote: »

No I don't agree, the decisions your talking about are 50/50s . Them handballs are rarely given so you can't be surprised it wasn't given. Cahills was the same. They are never given. Cleverly probably saved Torres in fairness.

Torres on Cleverley was not 50/50.
If the ref does his job properly Luiz concedes a penalty, hand was well out from his side.Letter of the law, Cahill concedes a penalty. This thread is about referees incompetency. Saying that you don't normally get them doesn't hold up in that argument.

Liam O

djPSB wrote: »

Nah didn't go through every game.

Just the important ones.

You think the facts are fictional or what?

Are Liverpool and Everton not two mid table teams? Hardly important tbh...

You watch Swansea and City in it's entirety too?

adox

"Mancs" might be a cryptic clue.

djPSB

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Okay. But why just this weekend? Please don't try to barrel ahead with this. you surely see that it lacks substance.

I am using this weekend as an example.

It's not a dig at any team in particular, just showing the effects of the poor officiating.

PhlegmyMoses

niallo27 wrote: »

I think if you look at balance of decisions Wigan get for and against, it probably evens out to human error on the parts of the refs, I think if you look at the balance of decision when it come to utd then human error is less likely.

Okay, it really is time for people to start putting their money where their mouth is on this. Take the last 5 years and do the research on every team. Otherwise your posting these kinds of claims is wasting everyone's time. It's based on a hunch. You are talking about complex theories on the subconscious without doing cursory research.

This crops up every time United get a decision and it's becoming tiresome trying to debate this in a mannerly and mature fashion when the basic premise of the other argument is without substance.

niallo27

cambo2008 wrote: »

Torres on Cleverley was not 50/50.
If the ref does his job properly Luiz concedes a penalty, hand was well out from his side.Letter of the law, Cahill concedes a penalty. This thread is about referees incompetency. Saying that you don't normally get them doesn't hold up in that argument.

No I didn't include Torres in the 50/50, I think the ref just say it as sloppy and not deliberate. If you played by the letter of the law you would 10 pens in a game, that's why I said you don't normally get them.

killwill

djPSB wrote: »

Nah didn't go through every game.

Just the important ones.

You think the facts are fictional or what?

Every fupping game is important for crying out loud. You don't win the league by just beating the top 4 or 5 teams.

Melion

Some Liverpool fans embarrassing themselves here

djPSB

Quazzie wrote: »

I get what you're saying, but did you look at the Arsenal game. They were really on top of QPR when they scored, and with seven minutes left plus stoppage, can you guarantee that the wouldn't have scored anyway?

It doesn't matter how much they were on top. That's a hypothetical situation.

The factual information is, they scored one goal and it shouldn't have counted.

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Okay, it really is time for people to start putting their money where their mouth is on this. Take the last 5 years and do the research on every team. Otherwise your posting these kinds of claims is wasting everyone's time. It's based on a hunch. You are talking about complex theories on the subconscious without doing cursory research.

This crops up every time United get a decision and it's becoming tiresome trying to debate this in a mannerly and mature fashion when the basic premise of the other argument is without substance.

Ok I have work in the morning so I won't have that research for you tonight, anyway I'm off to bed, good chatting to ya.

Quazzie

djPSB wrote: »

It doesn't matter how much they were on top. That's a hypothetical situation.

The factual information is, they scored one goal and it shouldn't have counted.

But that one moment changed everything that happened after it. Surely you can't be that obtuse to not recognise that.

djPSB

killwill wrote: »

Every fupping game is important for crying out loud. You don't win the league by just beating the top 4 or 5 teams.

So you think when an official makes a mistake in a Stoke v Sunderland game, that it's as crucial as a mistake in a Chelsea v United game?

adox

djPSB wrote: »

It doesn't matter how much they were on top. That's a hypothetical situation.

The factual information is, they scored one goal and it shouldn't have counted.

The factual information is they scored one goal and it counted.

niallo27

Melion wrote: »

Some Liverpool fans embarrassing themselves here

Are you talking about me, I don't think I said anything that mental here.

Will I Amnt

We were robbed of 3 points at Old Trafford last year against Newcastle.

Here's how the table should have finished.

1. Mancs
2. Other Mancs

killwill

Melion wrote: »

Some Liverpool fans embarrassing themselves here

Especially considering the result of the Chelsea/United game will have no bearing whatsoever on Liverpool FC or it's fans come next May.

djPSB

cambo2008 wrote: »

We were robbed of 3 points at Old Trafford last year against Newcastle.

Here's how the table should have finished.

1. Mancs
2. Other Mancs

Yep correct.

That's my point.

Refereeing decisions shouldn't play such a huge part.

Will I Amnt

djPSB wrote: »

Yep correct.

That's my point.

Refereeing decisions shouldn't play such a huge part.

Hmmmm!! If that's your point I give up.
I just chose 1 match.

PhlegmyMoses

djPSB wrote: »

Yep correct.

That's my point.

Refereeing decisions shouldn't play such a huge part.

No. City had decisions go against them last year too. You can't boil it down to one game. You also can't boil it down to decisions. Decisions regularly go against United where they still win the game. If you want an example, the last time United met Chelsea in the CL, Luiz should have been sent off early on. We still won and got to the final (which we shall never mention again) so the decison had no bearing on the result.

djPSB

cambo2008 wrote: »

Hmmmm!! If that's your point I give up.
I just chose 1 match.

My point is that refereeing mistakes are playing a massive part in games and that shouldn't be the case.

Will I Amnt

djPSB wrote: »

My point is that refereeing mistakes are playing a massive part in games and that shouldn't be the case.

It's always been the case. When it goes against your team and for the team you hate you will get all vocal about it.
This will die down and be forgotten about until the inevitable next time.

K-9

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Ya how many people here can remember decisions good or bad that involved clubs like Sunderland, WBA, Norwich, Swansea, Aston Villa, Fulham.

I say you could count in one hand.

Amazing how everyone remembers when United get decisions. Just the ones in their favour.

Then again if your obsessed........

I don't get this point, if the decisions supposedly go against the "small" teams, video replays would benefit them?

Seems to be the "I support a small team" chip on the shoulder.

Xavi6

K-9 wrote: »

Seems to be the "I support a small team" chip on the shoulder.

That would explain all the whinging Pool fans today :pac: