Air Rifle

Noel Kinsella

What is the law re- air rifles ? I think it has to be under 1 joule or something but is that powerful enough for shooting pigeons etc ??? Is there an airgun for hunting that does not require a licence ?
Thanks guys

Cass

Anything over one joule is classed as a firearm.

In relation to hunting with an air rifle with less than one joule power don't bother. It is nowhere near powerful enough to kill, and the only manufacturers of "guns" that weak are BB pellet guns. IOW the plastic ones you see for sale that fire the plastic BBs (4.5mm, etc).

Lastly there is the small matter of hunting without a firearm. Most laws regarding hunting require a shotgun, rifle, etc. IOW no slingshots, bows, spears, clubs, etc. It's to do with animal cruelty.

So basically it's a firearm or nothing.

extremetaz

Sub 1J devices are known as Airsoft guns - and they're absolutely not suitable for hunting anything. They're actually designed specifically to be safe to shoot at humans as they're used in a sport similar to paintball.

Air rifles range in power from ~5J up to 60J+ and are most definitely defined as firearms.

In the UK they are licence exempt up to ~16J (12ft.lb).


So in short, no, (in Ireland) there is no airgun suitable for hunting which does not require a licence.

tac foley

Ezridax wrote: »

Anything over one joule is classed as a firearm.

In relation to hunting with an air rifle with less than one joule power don't bother. It is nowhere near powerful enough to kill, and the only manufacturers of "guns" that weak are BB pellet guns. IOW the plastic ones you see for sale that fire the plastic BBs (4.5mm, etc).

Lastly there is the small matter of hunting without a firearm. Most laws regarding hunting require a shotgun, rifle, etc. IOW no slingshots, bows, spears, clubs, etc. It's to do with animal cruelty.

So basically it's a firearm or nothing.

Needs to be a sticky.

tac

Noel Kinsella

Thanks Guys.

rowa

If you already hold a firearms cert for a rifle or pistol or shotgun you should be able to have a 12 ft/lb (or 18 ft/lb as in spain) air rifle on an authorisation from the superintendent, the same as it is with a sound moderator.

hedzball

rowa wrote: »

If you already hold a firearms cert for a rifle of shotgun you should be able to have a 12 ft/lb (or 18 ft/lb as in spain) on an authorisation from the superintendent, the same as with a sound moderator.

wha??

extremetaz

hedzball wrote: »

wha??

+1 ... sounds like you're confusing your countries Rowa. Not aware of any such accomodations here.

rowa

extremetaz wrote: »

+1 ... sounds like you're confusing your countries Rowa. Not aware of any such accomodations here.

I am not confusing anything , i said you should be able to hold an air gun on an authorisation if it is under a certain power (normally 12 /lbs as in the uk) and you hold a firearms cert already (background checks and home security already inspected),
This is something the shooting orgs should be lobbying for.

Sparks

Technically, you already can; that's how "club guns" are managed for a few clubs; but I've never heard of it being done explicitly for an individual in lieu of a licence.

And frankly, I don't want it done on an authorisation - I just want the firearms act changed so that that 1 joule becomes either 16 joules (thus embracing paintball instead of the current situation it's in where strictly speaking, it's highly illegal to take part in, run a field for, or own a marker for the sport) or 8 joules (thus bringing us in line with most of the rest of the EU and allowing most target shooting airguns to be owned without licences). We've brought this up before, but it was shot down (pardon the pun) by the NARGC at the time.

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

Technically, you already can; that's how "club guns" are managed for a few clubs; but I've never heard of it being done explicitly for an individual in lieu of a licence.

And frankly, I don't want it done on an authorisation - I just want the firearms act changed so that that 1 joule becomes either 16 joules (thus embracing paintball instead of the current situation it's in where strictly speaking, it's highly illegal to take part in, run a field for, or own a marker for the sport) or 8 joules (thus bringing us in line with most of the rest of the EU and allowing most target shooting airguns to be owned without licences). We've brought this up before, but it was shot down (pardon the pun) by the NARGC at the time.

You want to be able to buy a air gun up to 16 j without any licence etc just as airsoft can be now ? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to be honest sparks, every lowlife in the country would be up to no good with them and drag legit shooters into the media in a negative way. Its something the doj would never stand for imho.

Sparks

That's exactly what paintball is doing at the moment rowa, often on Garda advice, and those aren't just paintball markers, they're strictly speaking restricted short firearms.
There's a tweak needed, and frankly, if the rest of the EU has survived for centuries without this level of control, and we survived for centuries without it as well (we've only had the law for the last couple of decades), then there's not much reason for it to my mind. I understand the "won't someone think of the children" argument that was used (no, seriously, that was the argument) to introduce the law, but I don't agree that it's true. We've had black widows, home-made bows and arrows and sticks for a lot longer than I can remember, all of which are quite adept at blinding when kids misuse them; I don't see us banning sticks though...

extremetaz

rowa wrote: »

I am not confusing anything , i said you should be able to hold an air gun on an authorisation if it is under a certain power (normally 12 /lbs as in the uk) and you hold a firearms cert already (background checks and home security already inspected),

are you saying "should" in the sense that this "ideally" should be the case or in the sense that it "is" the case and that an individual can seek such an accomodation?

I'm not being smart here - simply seeking clarification.

rowa wrote: »

You want to be able to buy a air gun up to 16 j without any licence etc just as airsoft can be now ? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to be honest sparks, every lowlife in the country would be up to no good with them and drag legit shooters into the media in a negative way. Its something the doj would never stand for imho.

...that's exactly what they do in the UK - and the industry has, in exact contradiction to the above, flourished.

That first quote of yours I have above makes reference to the arrangement except that it appears to assume an application of some sort is made. The UK arrangement is that Sub-12ft.lb rifles are exempt from registration - there is no paperwork required for them at all. No background checks, no security, nothing.

Far from destroying the sport and reputation of shooting, it's actually given the dealers a staple income and the entire industry has grown.

There are of course always a few idiots, but that's going to be the case in any given population.

rowa

extremetaz wrote: »

are you saying "should" in the sense that this "ideally" should be the case or in the sense that it "is" the case and that an individual can seek such an accomodation?

I'm not being smart here - simply seeking clarification.



...that's exactly what they do in the UK - and the industry has, in exact contradiction to the above, flourished.

That first quote of yours I have above makes reference to the arrangement except that it appears to assume an application of some sort is made. The UK arrangement is that Sub-12ft.lb rifles are exempt from registration - there is no paperwork required for them at all. No background checks, no security, nothing.

Far from destroying the sport and reputation of shooting, it's actually given the dealers a staple income and the entire industry has grown.

There are of course always a few idiots, but that's going to be the case in any given population.

Yes should , its a bit irish that you have to fulfill the same requirements for a relatively low powered air gun as you do for centrefire rifles up to .308"
I don't see the ags/doj signing off on letting airguns being exempt from some sort of registration, thats why i said an authorisation as it is with sound moderators etc. its different situation in the uk, they did look into licencing airguns but there are so many already in the hands of the public it would be impractical.
As far as i know ireland is the only country in europe that requires a licence for air guns , true ?

tac foley

Northern Ireland has precisely the same law regarding air guns as you do in the Republic.

As with you, ANY air gun over 1 joule is classed as a firearm.

Mainland UK, as previously noted - over 12 ft lbs for a rifle or 6 ft lbs for a pistol and it must be licensed.

tac

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

6 ft lbs is the limit in Germany for rifle OR pistol.

7.5 joules actually (which is a little over 5.5 ft-lbs); any airgun that qualifies (in Germany anyway) gets stamped with the freimark (the little F in the pentagon here):

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

7.5 joules actually (which is a little over 5.5 ft-lbs); any airgun that qualifies (in Germany anyway) gets stamped with the freimark (the little F in the pentagon here):

Thanks for that.

tac

recipio

As far as i know ireland is the only country in europe that requires a licence for air guns , true ?[/QUOTE]

That is true. If it ever comes up for negotiation again perhaps the DOJ mandarins might consider that Ireland is the total exception in the EU to which we apparently belong.
Like Dev, they have looked into their hearts and know what is good for us.

Sparks

recipio wrote: »

Like Dev, they have looked into their hearts and know what is good for us.

To be fair, the last time I remember trying to raise it, they were receptive and the NARGC rep literally stepped in and said there were more important things to talk about:

Sparks wrote: »

The idea of raising the muzzle energy threshold for airguns from the current 1 joule to the 12 ft-lb level of the UK or the 7-joule level of the German system was brought up, and again wasn't shot down - there's no perceived problem with things like paintball (and I made the point that paintball markers have twice the muzzle energy of an air rifle so if they're okay, we should be too, and I pointed out the problems of bringing in air rifles for competitions). However, while this is a possible thing that may happen (in, say, the Misc.Provisions Bill) it needs to be discussed at FCP level first. Des Crofton made the point that while this is definitely something we should be looking to do, practical limits on people may lead to the FCP having short-term, medium-term and long-term goals, and this may not make it to the short-term list.

Personally, I think we could have gotten this by now if we'd not been cut off at the knees like that.

tac foley

recipio wrote: »

As far as i know ireland is the only country in europe that requires a licence for air guns , true ?

That is true. If it ever comes up for negotiation again perhaps the DOJ mandarins might consider that Ireland is the total exception in the EU to which we apparently belong.
Like Dev, they have looked into their hearts and know what is good for us.[/QUOTE]

Not true, as I've posted before, and recently.

Northern Ireland also requires a firearms certificate for air-powered guns and gas powered guns of all kinds, regardless of the level of power - or lack of it.

The F for Frei - as posted by Sparks just now - shows that the airgun so-marked is available freely to those over the age of 18 in Germany, providing they have paid for it, of course. ;'=/
There remains the restriction on any airgun over their 7J limit.

tac

Noel Kinsella

A few old timers told me that 50-60 years ago anybody could have an air gun and that kids of 12-13 used to play with them ! Is this true ? When did the law change and why ?

tac foley

Noel Kinsella wrote: »

A few old timers told me that 50-60 years ago anybody could have an air gun and that kids of 12-13 used to play with them ! Is this true ? When did the law change and why ?

A lot changed in the RoI due to the things that were going on on the island of Ireland between late 1968 and, in spite of reportedly dying down a little, are still ongoing now.

tac

Zxthinger

I'm forced to choose three guns! Because of security SI and my current conditions at my house. Id love an air rifle but I'm not about to give up any guns as I see the current 3no as the minimum required for my sporting needs(.22, .220 and a 12g).

So I can't buy an air-rifle primarily as a direct result of the security SI and my current storage conditions! I can't justify the cost or effort of a home up grade to allow for an extra gun!

It seems that the issue is a simple one!
Why don't the DOJ or 'who ever' omit sub 12ft/lbs air rifles from the calculations for the security requirements.
They can still have them licensed! & thereby controlled and recorded.
They can still insist on secure storage in a gun-safe.

Later.

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

A lot changed in the RoI due to the things that were going on on the island of Ireland between late 1968 and, in spite of reportedly dying down a little, are still ongoing now.

Yes, but none of those things had anything to do with airguns being classed as firearms by the 1964 Firearms Act, which was introduced because of a rash of children shooting each other with airguns, as shown in the debates on the bill in the Dail and in the Seanad. The bill was put forward purely as a way to ban children from having airguns, nothing more.

recipio

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, but none of those things had anything to do with airguns being classed as firearms by the 1964 Firearms Act, which was introduced because of a rash of children shooting each other with airguns, as shown in the debates on the bill in the Dail and in the Seanad. The bill was put forward purely as a way to ban children from having airguns, nothing more.

Sparks, wasn't there a big roundup around 1972 when the £5 per rifle licence came in. I thought that was directly related to the 'troubles' in NI. More importantly it took air rifles out of the free market, needing approval from the Gardai for each one.

Sparks

recipio wrote: »

Sparks, wasn't there a big roundup around 1972 when the £5 per rifle licence came in. I thought that was directly related to the 'troubles' in NI. More importantly it took air rifles out of the free market, needing approval from the Gardai for each one.

That's the temporary custody order you're thinking of recipio; the air rifles would have been gone by that point, for the most part anyway.

You needed approval from the Gardai for each and every air rifle for the eight years prior to that point; and for each airgun over .22 calibre or 12 ft-lbs for the 40 years before the 1964 act (they weren't all that uncontrolled before the '64 act, not in practice; just the low-power ones didn't need the licence).

recipio

Not true, as I've posted before, and recently.

Northern Ireland also requires a firearms certificate for air-powered guns and gas powered guns of all kinds, regardless of the level of power - or lack of it.

The F for Frei - as posted by Sparks just now - shows that the airgun so-marked is available freely to those over the age of 18 in Germany, providing they have paid for it, of course. ;'=/
There remains the restriction on any airgun over their 7J limit.

Just out of interest, why has NI got similar restrictions to the ROI.? ( and to be a little pedantic, NI is a province, not a country ) Is it historical or actual cooperation between both jurisdictions ?
I have to reiterate we should have nothing to fear from UK type legislation but it would have to be introduced on both sides of the border.?

tac foley

recipio wrote: »

Just out of interest, why has NI got similar restrictions to the ROI.? ( and to be a little pedantic, NI is a province, not a country ) Is it historical or actual cooperation between both jurisdictions ?
I have to reiterate we should have nothing to fear from UK type legislation but it would have to be introduced on both sides of the border.?

It's true that Northern Ireland is a province and not a country, but it DOES have its own legislative government that has enough autonomy to tell the Westminster boys to go pound sand when it came the the revision of the firearms laws back in 1997/8. As such, Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK that allows its citizens to have any kind of REAL handgun, rather than the awful bloody mess of things we have here on the mainland, and, in a 180 degree POV, the only part of the UK that licenses ALL kinds of airguns.

tac

recipio

tac foley wrote: »

It's true that Northern Ireland is a province and not a country, but it DOES have its own legislative government that has enough autonomy to tell the Westminster boys to go pound sand when it came the the revision of the firearms laws back in 1997/8. As such, Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK that allows its citizens to have any kind of REAL handgun, rather than the awful bloody mess of things we have here on the mainland, and, in a 180 degree POV, the only part of the UK that licenses ALL kinds of airguns.

tac

Tac, I see UK mainland shooters talk about putting FAC airguns on a 'slot' on their licence. Do NI owners have to get specific permission for each gun or do they get a general licence. ? The attitude down here is a 'shure what do you need a second gun for' type of attitude.

tac foley

recipio wrote: »

Tac, I see UK mainland shooters talk about putting FAC airguns on a 'slot' on their licence. Do NI owners have to get specific permission for each gun or do they get a general licence. ? The attitude down here is a 'shure what do you need a second gun for' type of attitude.

Sir, in the UK a Firearms Cerificate [AKA FAC or simply 'ticket'], is a license to acquire and possess firearms and ammunition. It is issued to the PERSON, who then assumes full responsibility for the safe-custody and security of the firearm that are listed on it. A 'slot' on your 'ticket' simply means an addition that you have asked for on your FAC that you have not yet filled - hence, 'slot'. Moderators are also FAC items, BTW, although in some locales, if you are a stalker/pest control operator, they are compulsory items.

For example, to go target shooting in UK there is no other way you shoot a target firearm except by being a member of a club - ALL clubs are Home Office approved and regulated and inspected, too.

After your compulsory six-months probation, you apply for a FAC with all the firearms you wish to acquire - say, a .22, a .223, an under-lever in .38 and a black powder revolver, plus the amounts of ammunition that you think will do you to buy at any one time. I am allowed to have up to 700 rounds of each of my centre-fire calibres and, since I am only a fun .22 shooter, only 1000 .22RF. Others who are seriously into .22. like a few here, can have up to 10,000 .22RF in batches.

After a couple of weeks - maybe longer, back comes your FAC with all those permissions on it, and you go to the dealer and buy what you are allowed to.

If you decide that you need another firearm to do another type of target shooting then you apply for a variation to the FAC and get it.

The license lasts five years, BTW. In my county alone, a rural east anglian county, there are 19,000 licensed firearms holder....at a guess, I'd say that at least 50% of us reload - if you have an FAC then it is axiomatic that you can reload all the calibres on your ticket. Empty cases are just that, lumps of fancy brass. Nor do you have to register the ammunition you make, so long as you don't exceed the limit on your ticket.

The exception to that is hunting ammunition with fragmenting/expanding bullets - with them you have to log your loads on your FAC.

The rules apply to FAC-level airguns - over 12ft lbs = FAC.

Please note that there is no need here to register airgun ammunition - I have to say that I find it truly preposterous, as I found out when I tried to send a tin of match pellets to a poster here in Co. Cork.

Other 'good reasons' [ a legal term] for owning firearms are - pest control/game wardenship/management/deer-stalking and humane despatch, in the case of large animal veterinarians.

I'd be happier amwering any more questions anybody might have via PM - this is an Irish site, and the UK rules are in a different country, as I'm often reminded.

tac

PS - I have eighteen Section 1 firearms here in UK and around 20 or so airguns, but no FAC airgun.

recipio

Thank you for that detailed explanation. Its a shame the Irish authorities didn't adapt similar legislation. You are governed by logic, we are governed by paranoia.