Quick Question about Worthless Filthy Cheaters

partyatmygaff

Maybe_Memories wrote: »

My attitude is fine actually.

This is the real world. People cheat. I'm not saying go ahead and do it, I'm just saying other people cheating has no affect on the OP whatsoever.

Even if it came down to a cheater getting a job interview or whatever over the OP they would quickly get caught out in the interview.

You say that as if the OP thinks the same as you do and it's easy to see he doesn't.

You're happy enough with doing well and don't care too much how you stand relative to the rest of your class. That's fine and well but the OP sounds like their main aim is to do well and do it better than everyone else to boot. It's not hard to appreciate why he'd be a bit annoyed if everyone else took the easy way out and did as well as he did doing it the "proper" way. Sure, he'll probably know more than them but how's he going to prove that if he can't pull ahead of them in exams?

That said, it's a bit OTT to go on a crusade against an online MCQ. I'd wager that a huge amount of people of people who have these mastering(something).com 10% continuous assessment tests "cheat" during them. Your lecturers know that and that's why they're only worth 10% of your final grade. There's no way you're going to prevent people from cheating on an open-book exam you can sit wherever you like whenever you like no matter who you report.

Lawliet

partyatmygaff wrote: »

That's fine and well but the OP sounds like their main aim is to do well and do it better than everyone else to boot.

And that's a fairly immature reason to care. I suspect the OP doesn't give a toss about justice or fairness, they just don't want other people doing well because they want to be the best, and this supposed cheating is a convenient way to decry other people's success.

And I say supposed cheating because the OP hasn't explained exactly what these people are doing, and I wouldn't consider using the internet, lecture notes and the like to figure how to do a question on an open book test cheating.

Tragedy

So people who play competitive sports are immature if they care that others are cheating?
I guess you must love Lance Armstrong so :pac:

Lawliet

Tragedy wrote: »

So people who play competitive sports are immature if they care that others are cheating?
I guess you must love Lance Armstrong so :pac:

No it's not immature to care that others are cheating you out of something. I think it is fairly immature to think of assignments and exams as a competition to beat your classmates at.

Tragedy

Lawliet wrote: »

No it's not immature to care that others are cheating you out of something. I think it is fairly immature to think of assignments and exams as a competition to beat your classmates at.

Then why do we have grades other than Pass or Fail? Or why do many colleges rank grades based on how well students did in relation to classmates?

You really shouldn't throw the immature tag at others tbh.

CJC86

Lawliet wrote: »

No it's not immature to care that others are cheating you out of something. I think it is fairly immature to think of assignments and exams as a competition to beat your classmates at.

I think you should absolutely treat exams as a competition. Whether they admit it or not, every course is graded on a curve; so if you want to do well, you should aim to be at the upper end of that curve. It can make the difference between getting the job or postgrad that you want, or not.

I wouldn't be competitive about assignments though.

Edit: Tragedy posted the above while I was writing my reply Beat me to it.

Grimebox

CJC86 wrote: »

I think you should absolutely treat exams as a competition. Whether they admit it or not, every course is graded on a curve; so if you want to do well, you should aim to be at the upper end of that curve. It can make the difference between getting the job or postgrad that you want, or not.

I wouldn't be competitive about assignments though.

Edit: Tragedy posted the above while I was writing my reply Beat me to it.

I will gladly not admit to this. Absolute rubbish

partyatmygaff

Lawliet wrote: »

No it's not immature to care that others are cheating you out of something. I think it is fairly immature to think of assignments and exams as a competition to beat your classmates at.

How is it immature?

It's not immature to want to be the best. That's just high ambition and there's nothing wrong or immature about that.

DeDoc

Wow. Lots of naivety on show here.

Cheating matters a lot. If 10 people get firsts and 9 have cheated then the one who didn't has a devalued result. There are 9 people there who will get found out - and guess what happens to the reputation of the place that gave them their first? Ah, shure that place is rubbish - yer man over there was able to get a first, so a first from there isn't worth much.

Its not really that different to tax cheats - ultimately everyone pays a price for it

T-K-O

hey



(gotta get that post count up)

Tragedy

Grimebox wrote: »

I will gladly not admit to this. Absolute rubbish

What course does every student achieve firsts in?

stealinhorses

DeDoc wrote: »

Wow. Lots of naivety on show here.

If 10 people get firsts and 9 have cheated then the one who didn't has a devalued result.

The thing about Mastering Physics is, you won't get a first if you cheated your way to the full 10%. Even with that score, going into the two exams at the end of the year and not knowing what to do because you cheated all year long, means that you'll barely scrape a pass if you did OK in labs.

It really makes no difference to people who are aiming for a first, because if they're good they will get over 8% for MP anyway. Besides, the assignments get a bit easier in second semester.

It all comes down to the end of year exams in the end.

Lawliet

partyatmygaff wrote: »

How is it immature?

It's not immature to want to be the best. That's just high ambition and there's nothing wrong or immature about that.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to improve yourself and aim to be your personal best, but caring about other people's results is silly and isn't going to achieve anything.

partyatmygaff

Lawliet wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with wanting to improve yourself and aim to be your personal best, but caring about other people's results is silly and isn't going to achieve anything.

Say if he wanted to go on and do a P.hD or something after he left college, don't you think he'd want to stand out from the crowd a bit results-wise?

Tragedy

Lawliet wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with wanting to improve yourself and aim to be your personal best, but caring about other people's results is silly and isn't going to achieve anything.

In your opinion.

blubloblu

I think beyond the effect on your ranking in the class, there is a case to be made for putting a stop to unethical behaviour.
The kind of tacit approval you're all advocating leads to a corrupt environment, whether in college or wider society.

ViveLaVie

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Say if he wanted to go on and do a P.hD or something after he left college, don't you think he'd want to stand out from the crowd a bit results-wise?

Standing out from the crowd and doing well is great but it's rather pathetic if the motivation behind it is being able to lord it over others and take pleasure in the fact that they didn't do as well.

OP how exactly is it cheating if it's an open book test? The lecturers are well aware that people can google answers. They have decided to assess people through it anyway. Your problem should be with the system.

CJC86

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Standing out from the crowd and doing well is great but it's rather pathetic if the motivation behind it is being able to lord it over others and take pleasure in the fact that they didn't do as well.

OP how exactly is it cheating if it's an open book test? The lecturers are well aware that people can google answers. They have decided to assess people through it anyway. Your problem should be with the system.

Who said anything about wanting to lord it over others? People are saying its good to stand out from the crowd to get a better job/postgrad.

Thread's been derailed by now. OP hasn't come back to clarify how how people are cheating.

ViveLaVie

CJC86 wrote: »

Who said anything about wanting to lord it over others? People are saying its good to stand out from the crowd to get a better job/postgrad.

Thread's been derailed by now. OP hasn't come back to clarify how how people are cheating.

I was under the impression the OP said he wanted to excel only to beat others and I inferred 'lording it over' from that. Apologies if I'm wrong.

Lawliet

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Say if he wanted to go on and do a P.hD or something after he left college, don't you think he'd want to stand out from the crowd a bit results-wise?

People are really missing my point here.
Worrying about other people's results, begrudging them for doing just as well or better than you, and getting worked up that people are "cheating" on an open book test, that's not going to get you anywhere. Ignoring all that nonsense and doing your best is a lot more productive.

Lawliet

Tragedy wrote: »

In your opinion.

Everyone already knows it's my opinion by virtue of the fact that I said it, no need to restate the obvious.

partyatmygaff

Lawliet wrote: »

People are really missing my point here.
Worrying about other people's results, begrudging them for doing just as well or better than you, and getting worked up that people are "cheating" on an open book test, that's not going to get you anywhere. Ignoring all that nonsense and doing your best is a lot more productive.

We're all agreed that worrying about cheating on an "open book" test where cheating is rampant and probably already known to lecturers is a bit pointless.

On the other hand, if you want to go on to do a postgrad and absolutely have to stand out as a good candidate, you'd be foolish to not rate yourself relative to the rest of your class. No one said anything about begrudging either, you can be happy that someone did well but still want to do better.

languagenerd

In relation to the OP - forget about it. It'll come back to bite them in the Annual Exams, when everything you've learned from doing them properly will stand to you. It is annoying, in fairness, when someone's getting the same/better marks than you without doing the work, but in any case you have no way of proving it (from what you've said.). Focus on yourself and your own grades, forget everyone else because it's your degree you're getting at the end, not theirs.

In relation to grades being marked on a curve - I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. With essays (and oral exams, in the language subjects), it is easy to see how one essay might look better then it is if surrounded by a lot of exceptionally bad ones, or might look worse if the one before it was exceptionally brilliant - but in exams, there's a marking scheme. They set a bar for exams (and more for each grade), and you have to hit that to pass/get the grade. In one of my subjects, nobody got a First for two years running. Surely if it was graded on a curve, the top however many students would have got one?

Tragedy

Lawliet wrote: »

People are really missing my point here.
Worrying about other people's results, begrudging them for doing just as well or better than you, and getting worked up that people are "cheating" on an open book test, that's not going to get you anywhere. Ignoring all that nonsense and doing your best is a lot more productive.

People aren't missing your point, they're just disagreeing with it. Restating that "competing with others in your class is silly, therefore if they cheat it doesn't matter" isn't going to make people suddenly decide that it's fine for others to cheat.

But by all means, do keep posting that others are silly/immature.

Interferon Gamma

partyatmygaff wrote: »

On the other hand, if you want to go on to do a postgrad and absolutely have to stand out as a good candidate, you'd be foolish to not rate yourself relative to the rest of your class.

You seem to be under the impression that class rank impacts postgraduate applications a lot more than it actually does. (And I say that as someone who's first in their class.)

I'm currently applying for PhDs and any dialogue I've had with staff in Trinity and in the places I'm applying to, have glossed over my ranking in favour of asking about my internship in the US, my volunteer work in labs and my research interests. Prior to this year, I was actually bottom of my class (with a 2.2). So from my own experience I say the personal statement you write is far more important.

Evan93

If ye get back to the heart of the matter & cut out the whole philosophical discussion on the nature of cheating and treat the OP's case individually one has to ask what is the nature of the assignment. Anyone has had experience with mastering physics knows it's a load of nonsense. It reflects the final exam to an extent & if you cheat your way through the online assignments then you'll be weeded out during the actual exam. & to be fair a 1st year online assignment isn't gonna affect in any manner what degree you get, whether it be a 1st or whatever. Cause in fairness the stuff gets harder as you go on and if you cheat consistently then you won't last long with exams and whatever. Yeah cheating is wrong if it costs somebody a scholarship or something but in this case it's a bit silly. & also is the cheating literally copying somebody's answers or a discussion etc. in maths and physics it's quite common that students collaborate on their work and in a very, very strict sense somebody might see that as a cheating. And also, mastering physics, once again, should be taken with a pinch of salt, it's a not so good system that needs to be fixed. So I'd recommend taking a chill pill, relax, don't get so angry at other people and all sorts of other remedies. In the long run it's just dust in the wind.

God of Justice

Okay so here's one of the links that one of the cheaters so kindly referred me to a while back Here , but now that I actually open some of the pdf files it appears that the links are broken (first time I've checked, so it might be a recent (welcome) change).

So either Mr Hegner's finally caught wind of the cheaters or... I've just wasted all your time, sorry! Although it still doesn't explain why yer man would have referred me to this page...

But a cursory google search reveals these tantalising pages Masterphysicssolutions.net and Engineering Hero so I guess those cheaters are just spoiled for choice. Well at least Trinity itself isn't offering the answers.

So yeah in summary, it's not like they're just browsing through their book or searching wikipedia for relevant equations (I mean, even I do that, and it doesn't feel like cheating :P) but they are in fact (or at least, have the ability to) blindly copying down the answers off the web. And that I don't approve of.

And btw, yes, my chief concern is being the best and lording it over others. Sorry.

EDIT: I completely agree that the system is more to blame than the students. But I can't fight the system, man.

Sparticle

This thread is hilarious. I bet you're one of the people who covers their answers and refuses to help others in tutorials.

You're all in this together. I've shared my answers around for MP last year and have gotten methods for reaching answers in return. The entire system is geared towards students helping students.

Here's a hypothetical. Imagine there is a question on finding the distance to a Kuiper Edgeworth object and nobody knows how to do it. One guy figures it out and posts it on the internet. Now everyone knows how to approach the question and due to the random variables has to work through it themselves. They have learned how to do the question. The problem was successful in teaching students about using trigonometry to find astronomical distance.

The same thing is achieved by asking your tutor or lecturer for help. Is that cheating?? **** no.

At the end of the day the student has found out how to do a problem instead of just sitting around twiddling his/her thumbs.

You also learn the material better if you can explain it to others. Help your fellow students OP and stop being THAT GUY/GIRL.

+ It's about 5% IIRC

UnholyGregor

Yeah god of justice, I agree totally, what right do those bastards have to put in their own time and effort into seeing other approaches to questions that they may have been struggling with. I mean especially on a website like mastering physics, where the variables have been randomized so "cheating" is technically not viable. God who knows, if people like you weren't around to arbitrate such injustices, god knows what might become of the course, someday the depraved bastards might even stoop to the depths of using those "cheating tomes" I've heard about in the library.

Your name is more apt than you probably intended, you arrogant, self righteous, academically insecure, fag muffin.