Star Wars: The Force Awakens [** SPOILERS FROM POST 4472 ONWARD **]

cork guitar player

Into The Blue wrote: »

It's just a bit of a joke. Settle down there lad.

And stop calling me lad sonny Jim, too grey for that

cork guitar player

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Same can be said about the prequels which you claimed broke your heart...

Prequels were bollix Thelomen ,for a million reasons.

Here, edumacate yourself:

faceman

cork guitar player wrote: »

Its pure si fi escapisinm. Its not the The Seven Seals for Gods sake.

You could level the same criticism at ROTJ for building another death star with a dodgy trench..

The film was fantastic.


I love deep hard Sci-Fi, but this is Star Wars make, kingdom of dreams etc,

Just because its sci-fi escapism doesn't mean we have to accept any film's weakness. Thats just lazy film making.

Are you missing the two occasions I have said the film was enjoyable? Its enjoyable but i personally feel its not as good as its being made out to be.

Into The Blue

Aannnywaay,

how about those millennium falcon contrails? Nearly creamed myself.

That shot, and the apocalypse now tie fighter shot were my two "fück me this is class attention to detail" moments.

Thelomen Toblackai

cork guitar player wrote: »

Prequels were bollix Thelomen ,for a million reasons.

Here, edumacate yourself:

So any criticism of this new movie is thinking too hard on a pure sci fi escapism movie. But here's an hour long youtube critique on why the prequels that broke your heart were bollix ?

Take your own advice, don't think too hard. They're just sci fi movies. Or stop being such a hypocrite and let others have criticisms of the new ones.

cork guitar player

faceman wrote: »

Just because its sci-fi escapism doesn't mean we have to accept any film's weakness. Thats just lazy film making.

Are you missing the two occasions I have said the film was enjoyable? Its enjoyable but i personally feel its not as good as its being made out to be.

Fair enough Faceman, the movie did not take any risks at all, but Im thankful for that. It maybe by the numbers, its a machine to do a job. But its a fantastic machine.

The next film will be very interesting for all of us I think, and I hope some big departure from the past.

Nostalgia trip has been 190% fulfilled, and I needed it.

golfball37

Felt like a real trip down memory lane this evening. Fantastic movie.

cork guitar player

Into The Blue wrote: »

Aannnywaay,

how about those millennium falcon contrails? Nearly creamed myself.

That shot, and the apocalypse now tie fighter shot were my two "fück me this is class attention to detail" moments.

Yes man, yes, awsome :pac:

cork guitar player

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

So any criticism of this new movie is thinking too hard on a pure sci fi escapism movie. But here's an hour long youtube critique on why the prequels that broke your heart were bollix ?

Take your own advice, don't think too hard. They're just sci fi movies. Or stop being such a hypocrite and let others have criticisms of the new ones.

Ok so

thegreengoblin

Forgot to mention Kylo Ren's violent freakouts. Loved the scene where he finds Rey has escaped and starts smashing the place up. The two stormtroopers' quick u-turn was hilarious, I'm stilll laughing at it! :pac:

Kirby

faceman wrote: »

Kylo Ren is fantastic. One of the strongest characters in any of the Star Wars movies.

Is he though? I think not. I'll run through my thoughts on it. Spoilers from here on.

He starts out with a bang coming down to the planet. He is scary and foreboding and oozes power. He has the look and the voice and he commands all around him. He plucks that blaster shot out of the air and you think "This guy is dangerous".

And then all that disintegrates through the course of the movie.

He is shortly unmasked and talked down to by both the new emperor but also a first order minion. He loses his menace. This is really hammered home in the final fight sequence where he fights

Rey and Finn

. He fumbles around like a novice. He struggles with this pair of amateurs that have barely held a lightsabre before. We have already been told that he

betrayed Luke and killed all the other Jedi trainees

. We have seen him demonstrate his power and yet here he is, fumbling around in the snow.

Cast your mind back to Empire Strikes Back. Luke shows up at Sky city to face vader with only a small amount of training from Yoda. He is clearly outmatched and Vader fights 80% of the fight one handed in a show of arrogance and superiority. It's easy for him, as it should be. Thats a villain and how to portray it. He's clearly better than luke and you sit there watching him toy with him. "It was all too easy" he says. Because it was.

That is how the fight in end should have gone down.

Finn should have been played with like a piece of meat and Rey should not have been able to defeat him so easily.

It neuters the villain. He just isnt scary any more. Perhaps they will bring him back stronger after he is trained by his new master but thats a story for another movie. In this one, they missed the mark with him.

Having him be

Han's son

is fine from a narrative standpoint. It creates tension and conflict and raises the stakes beyond mere "good guys versus evil guy". Having him lose the rag a few times in fits of rage is also good as it shows he's unstable. And being tempted by the light. He's not a cookie cutter bad guy. That makes him interesting. But Vader he is not.

I have quite a few problems with the movie overall and thought it was only okay....but talk of Kylo Ren being a strong villain doesnt sit right with me.

py2006

Have to say guys, Rey was phenomenal in this. Such a great performance.

cork guitar player

py2006 wrote: »

Have to say guys, Rey was phenomenal in this. Such a great performance.

Getting hard now to discuss the movie without being spoilery....

He is like an amateur Darth Vader. I was 'meh' at the start of the film, he not so super evil, and his anger issues, which were a great dep[arture from super cool bad guys. But I foooking hate him now and want to see him burn in ****e, we have to wait a year...

faceman

cork guitar player wrote: »

Fair enough Faceman, the movie did not take any risks at all, but Im thankful for that. It maybe by the numbers, its a machine to do a job. But its a fantastic machine.

The next film will be very interesting for all of us I think, and I hope some big departure from the past.

Nostalgia trip has been 190% fulfilled, and I needed it.

Actually i respectively disagree about the risk taking. I think there were some great risk taken with character choices. Ren being one. We've never had a character like that in a Star Wars movie, let alone a villain.

I enjoyed the nostalgia too. Some people felt it was overpowering, I thought Abrams got it right.

Kirby wrote: »

Is he though? I think not. I'll run through my thoughts on it. Spoilers from here on.

He starts out with a bang coming down to the planet. He is scary and foreboding and oozes power. He has the look and the voice and he commands all around him. He plucks that blaster shot out of the air and you think "This guy is dangerous".

And then all that disintegrates through the course of the movie.

He is shortly unmasked and talked down to by both the new emperor but also a first order minion. He loses his menace. This is really hammered home in the final fight sequence where he fights

Rey and Finn

. He fumbles around like a novice. He struggles with this pair of amateurs that have barely held a lightsabre before. We have already been told that he

betrayed Luke and killed all the other Jedi trainees

. We have seen him demonstrate his power and yet here he is, fumbling around in the snow.

Cast your mind back to Empire Strikes Back. Luke shows up at Sky city to face vader with only a small amount of training from Yoda. He is clearly outmatched and Vader fights 80% of the fight one handed in a show of arrogance and superiority. It's easy for him, as it should be. Thats a villain and how to portray it. He's clearly better than luke and you sit there watching him toy with him. "It was all too easy" he says. Because it was.

That is how the fight in end should have gone down.

Finn should have been played with like a piece of meat and Rey should not have been able to defeat him so easily.

It neuters the villain. He just isnt scary any more. Perhaps they will bring him back stronger after he is trained by his new master but thats a story for another movie. In this one, they missed the mark with him.

Having him be

Han's son

is fine from a narrative standpoint. It creates tension and conflict and raises the stakes beyond mere "good guys versus evil guy". Having him lose the rag a few times in fits of rage is also good as it shows he's unstable. And being tempted by the light. He's not a cookie cutter bad guy. That makes him interesting. But Vader he is not.

I have quite a few problems with the movie overall and thought it was only okay....but talk of Kylo Ren being a strong villain doesnt sit right with me.

I see where you are coming from. Here's my thoughts.

Hes a strong character because he's not a vanilla villain. He has true conflict within, a trait of anyone who is young who turned on his family to join the dark side.

The use of the mask was fantastic. His character was hiding behind the mask. Once removed it exposed his humanity, something he was trying to hide. He wanted to be Vadar. He idolised Vadar. Yet his mother and his uncle were from the light side of the force. His father a hero of the rebellion.

I believe its impossible to see where the character can go because of how well they demonstrated his conflict. Driver did a great job in the role. Remember the OT and Luke? Despite the temptation presented to Luke, the overwhelming pressure from the dark side, we always knew he wouldn't turn. But with Ren, he's unpredictable. Its too early to guess if he will turn back or go darker.

These are the kind of discussions I love and Im delighted its finally happening once again with Star Wars.

cork guitar player

faceman wrote: »

Actually i respectively disagree about the risk taking. I think there were some great risk taken with character choices. Ren being one. We've never had a character like that in a Star Wars movie, let alone a villain.

I enjoyed the nostalgia too. Some people felt it was overpowering, I thought Abrams got it right.



I see where you are coming from. Here's my thoughts.

Hes a strong character because he's not a vanilla villain. He has true conflict within, a trait of anyone who is young who turned on his family to join the dark side.

The use of the mask was fantastic. His character was hiding behind the mask. Once removed it exposed his humanity, something he was trying to hide. He wanted to be Vadar. He idolised Vadar. Yet his mother and his uncle were from the light side of the force. His father a hero of the rebellion.

I believe its impossible to see where the character can go because of how well they demonstrated his conflict. Driver did a great job in the role. Remember the OT and Luke? Despite the temptation presented to Luke, the overwhelming pressure from the dark side, we always knew he wouldn't turn. But with Ren, he's unpredictable. Its too early to guess if he will turn back or go darker.

These are the kind of discussions I love and Im delighted its finally happening once again with Star Wars.

I dig your comments on the mask, maybe thinking is cool

errlloyd

When can we dispense with spoiler tags?

Ren is meant to be flawed. That is exactly the point. He is untrained and distant from his master. Furthermore he hasn't actually fully embraced the dark side. The absolute biggest difference between this and A New Hope is that in ANH, Luke was nothing more than a talented pilot (no combat skills) and Vader was fully trained. The trilogy was about luke catching up. Could Luke become as powerful as Vader in time.

In this new series both Ren and Rei are starting from the same place. Ren has some training, and Rei at least has some combat experience from her life as a scavenger (this is why she is naturally quicker on the uptake than Luke). The first movie was their initial shadow box. Now they've both fled the scene with the realisation that neither are strong enough, both have sought out their masters.

This is what makes these movies the logical third step. Original trilogy was about the dark side being dominant and the light catching up. The prequels were about the light being dominant and the dark catching up. This series starts with the force pretty much in the balance.

Hopefully both protagonist and antagonist will develop side by side in episode 8.

Now for the love of Christ, is a parsec supposed to be a measurement of speed or time, and how the **** doesn't she know he did it in 12.

Kirby

faceman wrote: »

The use of the mask was fantastic. His character was hiding behind the mask. Once removed it exposed his humanity, something he was trying to hide.

You can unmask him without making him seem like a chump though. And thats what they did. It's in stark contrast to when Vader is unmasked. And I dont mean his literal unmasking at the end of ROTJ. I mean when they humanised him by revealing he was Luke's father. Thats why he didnt kill him and it adds a new significance to their fight and their later fight in Jedi. But it didnt make him weak.

Personally I just felt there was a huge disconnect between this Jedi slaughtering powerhouse we are shown at the beginning, and the childish sabre tween we see at the end. It was jarring and disappointing. He just wasnt believable as a powerful villain anymore.

errlloyd wrote: »

Now for the love of Christ, is a parsec supposed to be a measurement of speed or time, and how the **** doesn't she know he did it in 12.

And to fly my inner nerd flag, the parsec thing was a mistake by Lucas as it pertains to distance....not time. It was skillfully retconned in the books. The kessel run being a run between planets through a series of black holes. Most people went around them but Han went through them. So he by skirting dangerously close to the black holes, he travelled less distance. Like running around a running track in Lane 1 instead of Lane 8. Thats the explanation they came up with anyway to save Lucas some embarassment.

Whyohwhy?

'Awful moments' what are you smoking ?? thats just shi t stirring[/quote]
It's not. Definitely not.
It is a good movie, it fcukin great for a fan , it's not a problem great movie though.

Unless you're a die hard fan(which I am) It's not that fantastic.
It really isn't. It pretty fcukin good, could have been better. But I love it... So, so much!!!

faceman

cork guitar player wrote: »

I dig your comments on the mask, maybe thinking is cool

I do overthink but mostly because I love talking movies.

I once wrote a piece in college about how the Alien trilogy is all about sex...

faceman

Kirby wrote: »

You can unmask him without making him seem like a chump though. And thats what they did. It's in stark contrast to when Vader is unmasked. And I dont mean his literal unmasking at the end of ROTJ. I mean when they humanised him by revealing he was Luke's father. Thats why he didnt kill him and it adds a new significance to their fight and their later fight in Jedi. But it didnt make him weak.

Personally I just felt there was a huge disconnect between this Jedi slaughtering powerhouse we are shown at the beginning, and the childish sabre tween we see at the end. It was jarring and disappointing. He just wasnt believable as a powerful villain anymore.

And to fly my inner nerd flag, the parsec thing was a mistake by Lucas as it pertains to distance....not time. It was skillfully retconned in the books. The kessel run being a run between planets through a series of black holes. Most people went around them but Han went through them. So he by skirting dangerously close to the black holes, he travelled less distance. Like running around a running track in Lane 1 instead of Lane 8. Thats the explanation they came up with anyway to save Lucas some embarassment.

Interesting. The downside is we have to wait 2 more years to see how it develops.

DrumSteve

Really enjoyed it.

Also Domhnall Gleeson is a magnificent bastard in this.

Grayditch

Adam Driver was brilliant. Shame we didn't get to see his inner conflict played out a little more. So much stuff seemed too rushed, I think.

DrumSteve wrote: »

Really enjoyed it.

Also Domhnall Gleeson is a magnificent bastard in this.

I really don't think he was good in this.

Kirby

faceman wrote: »

I do overthink but mostly because I love talking movies.

I once wrote a piece in college about how the Alien trilogy is all about sex...

Thats because it was. They cut a lot of it out but some of it can still be seen. Parker and Lambert are both stripped naked after the alien kills them so its implied he had his way with them.

johnny_ultimate

Kylo is a 'great villain' because he isn't solely defined by his villainy. He is instead perhaps better described as a 'great character... Who happens to be a villain'.

If you haven't rewatched A New Hope recently, I recommend it, particularly to pay particular attention to Darth Vader. He's frankly kind of rubbish, one-dimensional and not quite as menacing as you remember. It's Empire that started really adding shades of humanity and... 'Nuance' is too strong, but definitely uncertainty. Darth Maul was worse again - menacing in appearance for sure, but ultimately maddeningly enigmatic and shallow, as if Lucas assumed a memorable appearance would be enough (it wasn't).

For the first time with Kylo, we have a character of a villainous nature who feels genuinely multi-dimensional from the off. He's not a perfect, flawless killer, and that's what makes him totally fascinating. He's angry, frustrated and conflicted - powerful but immature. He's torn between different sides. He's prone to failure and acts of impulse just as much as his startling torture and force abilities.

He commits the most heinous act in the entire Star Wars saga (well, all those genocides aside, ahem), but it's the confused, unhinged psychology of the character that makes it more than mere murder, and instead something loaded with meaning and consequence. It was essential he was unmasked for those incredibly close-ups of his face as he made up his mind.

It's refreshing that he's partially 'defeated' here, because it gives him an 'enemy' and motivation and the opportunity to mature as a character. In a sense, it's an interesting variation on the situation Luke found himself in at the end of Empire. I'm not going to predict where Johnson is going to take Kylo's story, but certainly there's the potential to significantly build upon the foundation established here, especially if used in contrast with Rey's own burgeoning powers.

With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to look back at Darth Vader as a more multifaceted character than he initially is - and I don't even think he's even half as menacing as his reputation would suggest (The Imperial March does a lot of heavy lifting, and that doesn't even show up until film two). With Kylo Ren, there's a confidence in the writing (and the performance) that makes it seem to me that they have big plans for the character even beyond the stellar arc he enjoys here. I very much look forward to finding out what said plan plays out.

The Randy Riverbeast

Ren is a bit confusing. At the start he was a bad ass, then he went down hill. I can understand him not being so powerful when you consider he probably isn't properly trained, he has doubts, he took a hit before the fight at the end and Finn and Rey were somewhat trained but stopping the blaster wouldnt really fit in.

BlitzKrieg

Kylo Ren is Anakin Skywalker done right as an actual character and not as an infuriating dipsh*t, genuine internal conflict and a sense of him trying to fill something much bigger then what he is currently both traits we were meant to see in anakin but instead got whiny moany idiot. He's not meant to be on the level of vader yet and I expect there to be more to the whole betrayel of luke backstory then what we've been shown so far.

I liked more of it then I disliked. I think it hit spot on what the prequels missed, which was genuinely likeable characters, it could have all the other problems of the prequels but likeable characters carry it a long way. It's a credit to the film's new elements that my favourite part of the film is the first third where its entirely new characters. I do think it misses a few steps in the middle in terms of plotting and the last third is a bit shaky, but nothing I'd consider damning.

it's a credit where a lot of my issues and thoughts are to do with where the films go next which gives them plenty of room to surprise or impress me.

one of those missing story beats is the odd shift from Fin to Ray in the middle of the film as he was supposably the one awakening in the first part and then it's flipped on its head and she's the one awakening which was fine and does lead to that great climax but they left Fin hanging oddly with no sort of place to go from here in the story, it did feel like ray walked away with everything at the end, she's got the falcon, chewie, the technical smarts and the jedi powers while Fin ends the film unconcious with his only link being he's friend's with the resistance's top ace. I'm genuinely curious how he comes back into the story for 8 if he does at all. As for Ren, he didnt lose his hand so thats a tradition that was missed but he's all cut up now so that mask is going to carry more weight

DrumSteve

Grayditch wrote: »

Adam Driver was brilliant. Shame we didn't get to see his inner conflict played out a little more. So much stuff seemed too rushed, I think.



I really don't think he was good in this.

Oh he definitely hammed it up, his character was just a dastardly bastard. No redeeming features.

One thing I will say, I felt like I was waiting for something big to happen and it didn't.

It looked great, the acting was generally quite good, but it felt like something was missing.

mystic86

To those who have seen it, how long in total do the scenes filmed in Skellig Michael add up to? Thanks

Into The Blue

4 ish min

mystic86

Into The Blue wrote: »

4 ish min

Thanks, and is it impressive looking?