Star Wars: The Force Awakens [** SPOILERS FROM POST 4472 ONWARD **]

orubiru

khamilto wrote: »

Disappointing. 6/10 at best.

Incoherent mess, no depth whatsoever

I could go on and on and ****ing on. The problem is, this isn't nitpicking. It's showing just how incoherent the story is. There is no consistency, no attempt at creating a setting. It is incredibly lazy in every single facet of its creation, relying on the Star Wars name and constant inane action to sustain it.

The worst of it is, it has worked. People seem incapable of detaching Star Wars the nostalgia from Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

The movie never gave itself a chance to a breathe. A chance for suspense to build, for characters to expand beyond 'plucky young girl' 'naive young guy' 'childish son fighting to escape his parents' shadow'.

It has JJA stamped all over it. Sumptious visuals, no imagination, and utterly facile in every aspect.

There wasn't a single poignant or moving scene in the movie, and the death at the end had no impact because it was a) telegraphed so obviously & b) the characters mattered not at all. Not to mention the movie was an almost clone of Star Wars 4+5, recreated and condensed into one movie.

The main thing I am interested in is what action/adventure movies you would consider to be far superior to this one? I think a lot of your criticisms can be applied, in general, to this genre of movie so I am wondering which ones in the genre would be exempt from such criticism?

I didn't address each bullet point because it would have taken too long to go over them all. Which is probably why the movie doesn't do it either. How would you fit all of that in there?

Basically it all comes under the umbrella of "why does the movie not explain these things". Would you have preferred many expository scenes involving walking and talking?

It's possible to do that with basically any movie. A lot of writers will adopt a "show, don't tell" approach and that's what has essentially been employed here. The First Order and The Resistance are in opposition to each other. One of these has a weapon of mass destruction and are going to use it, the other wants to stop them.

The drama is in the conflict and constant breaks to explain just how and why this conflict is dramatic is arguably worse than just telling the audience "these are the goodies, these are the baddies, have fun!".

When you say the story is "incoherent" I'm not sure how that's the case. It's a pretty straight forward story actually. You say yourself that parts of it were telegraphed and if it's a clone of 4 + 5 then surely it was coherent enough for you to recognize that it was following the plot of 2 other movies?

Would you agree that these type of action, adventure, sci-fi and fantasy movies have a lot of limitations because it's not possible to make any real storytelling "deep cuts" in a format that this primarily based on action and "cool stuff"?

You wouldn't be able to make a movie like Capote or There Will Be Blood or Birdman with a coat of Star Wars paint and expect that film to be successful. There is simply no way to mash all those elements together into a 2 hour film and keep the audience happy. Which is really where the idea of genres comes from, I suppose.

I'd argue that Star Wars is hardly the place for radical, genre mashing, movie making, right?

When you say "the worst of it is, it has worked. People seem incapable of detaching Star Wars the nostalgia from Star Wars: The Force Awakens" are you saying that the original Star Wars was the perfect coherent story you were looking for? If not then why make the point at all.

I would have said that people enjoy The Force Awakens precisely because it taps into the essence of what Star Wars is. Fundamentally, it's a Star Wars movie. There's no need to detach the nostalgia.

Kunkka

Watched it on Sunday in Dundrum at 11am so there were a load of kids at it. There were some as young as 6 I reckon! When Han was killed a load of kids started crying and one particularly was inconsolable, every time Kylo Ren came on the screen afterwards he kept saying "I hate you" while crying. If I was watching it by myself I probably would have expressed my feelings in the same way

Overall I loved the movie but it didn't draw me in straight away to be honest. I didn't warm to the new characters as quick as I thought I would. There was a lot of cheese in it but I think when Han came in to it he brought up the standard of said cheese so I was fine with the others after that. The scene on the walkway will be up there with other epic movie moments, I knew it was coming when I seen that set up. I was still in shock though. My only gripe is I thought we'd see more of Luke but at least it's set up nicely. Can't wait for the next one!

golfball37

Dricmeister wrote: »

1. Empire
2. Star Wars (i.e. A New Hope)
3. The Force Awakens
4. Revenge of the Sith
4. Return of the Jedi
6. Attack of the Clones
7. The Phantom Menace

Revenge of the Sith is underrated.

I'd swap 6 and 7 but otherwise agree.

orubiru

tommyboy2222 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABcXyZn9xjg

Love it.

I think one of the bad things about the Plinkett reviews is that they encouraged a popular misconception that the way to criticize a movie is by totally trashing and nit picking every single little thing.

The fact that they have millions of views kind of cements the idea that outright destroying something in a humorous or over the top fashion is a good way to be popular.

Unfortunately, for people who think like that, the Red Letter Media guys actually have some fairly good ideas and a solid understanding of movie making. The majority of their criticisms seem so harsh because they are so spot on and actually quite insightful.

This is quite different from the mean spirited "heh, heh, you totally trashed that movie" attitude doing the rounds which basically just involves looking at surface details and saying, for example, "how come Immortan Joe has all the water!? Oh my god this movie is garbage". No.

Hyzepher

Went to watch it again last night.

Not sure if it has come up on the thread already but on watching it the second time I got the feeling that Han was helping Ren kill him. It was if Ren was stating that he knew what he had to do but couldn't do it. The camera pans down the the handle of the light sabre and there is definitely a struggle. It looked like Han was pulling the weapon towards him.

eviltimeban

Kunkka wrote: »

he kept saying "I hate you" while crying.

Was it Hayden Christiansen?? :pac:

Mr Freeze

Hyzepher wrote: »

Not sure if it has come up on the thread already but on watching it the second time I got the feeling that Han was helping Ren kill him. It was if Ren was stating that he knew what he had to do but couldn't do it. The camera pans down the the handle of the light sabre and there is definitely a struggle. It looked like Han was pulling the weapon towards him.

Trying to wrestle it from Ren's hands, don't think it was anything else.

Hyzepher

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Trying to wrestle it from Ren's hands, don't think it was anything else.

i thought that initially when I saw it first but while watching it again the dialogue and the framing of the shot made me think it was something else.

py2006

Woo hoo, going to see it again in a couple hours :P

Mickeroo

Hyzepher wrote: »

i thought that initially when I saw it first but while watching it again the dialogue and the framing of the shot made me think it was something else.

The whole scene was framed to make it look like Ren wanted Han to take the light saber away from him when in fact his dialogue was all about him struggling with the fact he knew he had to kill his father. Part of Ren probably did want Han to take it and he does go to hand it to him but when Han actually tries to take it Ren relents and kills him. Was a really brilliant scene and a great tragic death for Han (even if it seemed fairly obvious how it was going to play out at the same time).

No way in hell Han actually wanted him to do it imo, it's the point where he's fully lost to the darkside as far as I can see in much the same way Luke had the strength not to give in to the dark side and kill his own father Ren fully commits and goes through with the act.

Effects

Hyzepher wrote: »

The camera pans down the the handle of the light sabre and there is definitely a struggle. It looked like Han was pulling the weapon towards him.

What would the point in that be? Helping Ren to become everything Han didn't want him to become.

Hrududu

Hyzepher wrote: »

Went to watch it again last night.

Not sure if it has come up on the thread already but on watching it the second time I got the feeling that Han was helping Ren kill him. It was if Ren was stating that he knew what he had to do but couldn't do it. The camera pans down the the handle of the light sabre and there is definitely a struggle. It looked like Han was pulling the weapon towards him.

I can't really get on board with that. For that to be the case Han would be getting Ren to kill him to send him further towards the dark side. Which is the opposite of what Han would want.

In The Phantom Menace's defence (never thought I'd type that) the score is epic. Duel of the Fates is one of the best pieces of music from any Star Wars film.

iDave

Is it wrong I was hoping Duel of Fates would get a rumble as Ren squared up to Rey?

faceman

A friend of mine, who cares not for Star Wars, put this on Craigslist yesterday. I lol'd!

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/crs/5370508073.html

Effects

faceman wrote: »

A friend of mine, who cares not for Star Wars, put this on Craigslist yesterday. I lol'd!

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/crs/5370508073.html

She obviously does care if she's going out of her way to pretend she doesn't.

Relikk

Hyzepher wrote: »

Went to watch it again last night.

Not sure if it has come up on the thread already but on watching it the second time I got the feeling that Han was helping Ren kill him. It was if Ren was stating that he knew what he had to do but couldn't do it. The camera pans down the the handle of the light sabre and there is definitely a struggle. It looked like Han was pulling the weapon towards him.

He was definitely only trying to get it out of his hands but, Kylo was struggling to let it go and started pulling back. I don't believe Han was trying to help Kylo kill him.

errlloyd

There are a few things about Han's death I think are important.

• I don't think he actually wanted to talk to Ren or bring him home. When he ran away he accepted Ren was lost, when he came back Leia asked him to bring Ren home, that is why Han stepped out.
• I think he knew Ren might kill him, but I think he also knew that giving Ren the illusion that he had the permission to kill Han stopped it being a cold murder. To everyone else it would seem like betrayal, but that dialogue "Will you help", "Anything". In many ways Han still died for Ren, and that might help him away from the dark side.
• In the end I think Ren regretted it.

Optimus Prime

Ive seen it a couple of times now and looking at the flashback i honestly think its Kylo that leaves her on Jakku.

In the flashback when its raining, Rey is on the ground about to be hit by what looks like a knight of ren with a stick or something, he is killed from behind by kylo.

When the ship leaves her on the planet as it flys off, the sky darkness and it heads towards a red light. symbolically like the red light on rens face when he kills han.

Wailin

faceman wrote: »

There are 3 baddies....

Kylo Ren is one of the best characters in a Star Wars movie. Driver did an excellent showing his conflict.

Dear Lord.........no, he didn't, he was awful. Even Christensen was far better displaying his emotions tearing him apart. As for the other 2 baddies, well, best left alone I think.

Mr Freeze

errlloyd wrote: »

In the end I think Ren regretted it.

I do not want to see him redeemed in any way though.

Hopefully he is lost to the Dark Side now and thats that, no Vader style last minute redemption.

I was dreading seeing Han die (it was spoiled for me on social media the day before seeing it), I kinda knew it was going to happen anyways as Ford had said he would only return if Han is killed off.

But it was a hard scene watch and an unforgivable act by Ren, he can't turn back good (over the course of the next 2 films) after killing Han Solo and have the audience accept him as good/turned from the Dark.

Mickeroo

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Ive seen it a couple of times now and looking at the flashback i honestly think its Kylo that leaves her on Jakku.

In the flashback when its raining, Rey is on the ground about to be hit by what looks like a knight of ren with a stick or something, he is killed from behind by kylo.

When the ship leaves her on the planet as it flys off, the sky darkness and it heads towards a red light. symbolically like the red light on rens face when he kills han.

I thought that bit was Ren killing off the rest of Luke's trainees.

iDave

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Ive seen it a couple of times now and looking at the flashback i honestly think its Kylo that leaves her on Jakku.

In the flashback when its raining, Rey is on the ground about to be hit by what looks like a knight of ren with a stick or something, he is killed from behind by kylo.

When the ship leaves her on the planet as it flys off, the sky darkness and it heads towards a red light. symbolically like the red light on rens face when he kills han.

Also Kylo gets very annoyed when he finds out Finn escaped with 'a girl'.

Foxtrol

Mickeroo wrote: »

I thought that bit was Ren killing off the rest of Luke's trainees.

Yeah, looked to me like a youngling with a helmet visor on, similar to the ones that were killed by Anakin in the temple in ROTS. So likely kids from Luke's academy.

Sad Professor

I’d be cautious about reading too much into the Forceback sequence. Remember Yoda in Empire: “Through the Force, things you will see, other places, the future… the past, old friends long gone.” It’s not necessarily all memories of events Rey was present for. The beginning of the Forceback is the gantry hallway on Bespin where Luke and Vader had their first duel, which it’s fair to say Rey wasn’t present for.

I still like the idea that Kylo knows or suspects who Rey is and that he might have been involved with her abandoned on Jakku. It ties into the mythic narrative of the jealous, evil family member exiling the true heir so that they can take their place.

Nerdlingr

So.... Seven movies in...Is there anyone going to bring 'balance to the force'? (as foreseen in the prophecy)

mrcheez

I'm sure this question has been asked several times already, but where in Dublin is best place to see it?

Odeon? Cineworld? ... want the full ISENSE 3D (or whatever) experience. We don't have IMAX here right?

Also I gather we need to bring our own 3D glasses, are they the RealD 3D glasses?

Sad Professor

mrcheez wrote: »

I'm sure this question has been asked several times already, but where in Dublin is best place to see it?

Odeon? Cineworld? ... want the full ISENSE 3D (or whatever) experience. We don't have IMAX here right?

Also I gather we need to bring our own 3D glasses, are they the RealD 3D glasses?

You’ll get spoiled reading this thread. There’s another thread discussing the best place to see it here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057537612

JustShon

Nerdlingr wrote: »

So.... Seven movies in...Is there anyone going to bring 'balance to the force'? (as foreseen in the prophecy)

I was always of the opinion that Anakin did just that by murdering a load of Jedi. The force was unbalanced; there were dozens of Jedi and very few Sith.

In A New Hope before there are two light-side, Obi Wan and (kinda) Luke. There are also two dark side, Vader and The Emperor.

It fluctuates by one person on occasion but ever since Anakin wiped out the Jedi academy there has only ever been a small difference in the numbers of light-side force users and dark-side force users.

As of the end of VII we have Luke and Rey vs Kylo Ren and Snopes Snoke.

Falthyron

Nerdlingr wrote: »

So.... Seven movies in...Is there anyone going to bring 'balance to the force'? (as foreseen in the prophecy)

Something I learned from watching The Force Awakens: The darkside struggles to keep out the light - as we saw in Kylo Ren - something I hadn't really thought of before; a new perspective. This prophecy is a Jedi prophecy. Perhaps such an occurrence doesn't even register with the Sith, or more likely, they have their own prophecy. And in true George Lucas style, he does add the caveat of 'A prophecy misread, could have been' in Revenge of the Sith.

If the Jedi believe in this prophecy then it suggests they are always at a disadvantage and they are unaware of it. If they are continually waiting on the chosen one then it suggests things are bad, very bad. Despite being in a seat of power (the prequels) with many in their ranks.

I think JJ is trying to suggest that The Force (dark and light) goes beyond that of the Jedi and the Sith. Maz Kanata says she has seen evil take many forms: the Empire, the First Order, the Sith. It is one big presence not limited to one faction or person, despite the Emperor being at the heart of most of it. Anakin brought balance by killing himself and the Emperor. On a larger scale he also brought balance between the Rebellion and the Empire by taking out its leader and leaving its armies leaderless.

Crucially though, and in my opinion, Luke is the carefully placed character finely balanced between light and dark. He did not receive full Jedi training (he knows nothing of their ways, truly, when we look at how Obi Wan and Anakin trained), he doesn't know how the Jedi operated, he almost falls to the darkside when he fights Vader in ROTJ, and he uses abilities from both the light and the dark (he chokes two guards in Jabba's palace). At the end of ROTJ, he is almost the perfect 'grey' force sensitive character. Anakin brought balance, but he left his son in the precarious position of 'what happens next?'. Sith and Jedi are gone (technically and in the traditional sense of what we know of them), and Empire is in disarray as the Rebellion can now take them on at an equal level. Balance remained for 20+ years until the mysterious Snoke emerged, recruited a powerful Sith and united the remnants of the Empire under the banner of the First Order.

Zillah

JustShon wrote: »

I was always of the opinion that Anakin did just that by murdering a load of Jedi. The force was unbalanced; there were dozens of Jedi and very few Sith.

In A New Hope before there are two light-side, Obi Wan and (kinda) Luke. There are also two dark side, Vader and The Emperor.

It fluctuates by one person on occasion but ever since Anakin wiped out the Jedi academy there has only ever been a small difference in the numbers of light-side force users and dark-side force users.

As of the end of VII we have Luke and Rey vs Kylo Ren and Snopes Snoke.

The entire concept of "balancing the force" was absurd. What the hell did Obi Wan think he meant when he said that? "Balance" sounds like a nice word until you realise they are talking about balance between good and evil. Who the fuck wants equal measures of good and evil in the world?