Star Wars: The Force Awakens [** SPOILERS FROM POST 4472 ONWARD **]

Nervous Wreck

Sad Professor wrote: »

I think Snoke is Snoke.

Although this debate over him reminds of the Palpatine/Sidious discussions during the prequels. There was people arguing right until Episode III came out that they were two different people. That Sidious was Palpatine’s clone, or his evil brother. The amount of “hints" they found in the films to support this was quite astonishing. There was no reasoning with them either.

Haha, that's mental. Like that argument I had on here with someone who insisted that in Guardians of the Galaxy 2, it would be revealed that Yondu was Quill's father, despite Yondu very clearly stating that he had been employed by Auill's father and bought he was an asshole. No reasoning with them at all. "Maybe he was being hard on himself!" :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Kirby

Dricmeister wrote: »

So who do people think Snoke is?

Darth Plagueis?

One of Palpatine's clones?

Sad Professor wrote: »

I think Snoke is Snoke.

Surely the similarity in score when snoke is on the screen and when Palpatine tells Anakin about Plagueis in ep 3 lends credence to the idea that Snoke and Plagueis are the same person though? It's basically the same musical piece. I know Williams has a distinct sound but he isnt that lazy. Surely its foreshadowing?

I know they distanced themselves very heavily from the prequels and rightfully so.....but I think they have borrowed from it this time.

Canis Lupus

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Lucas's films were filled with excellent lightsaber duels.

Just a small point of contention. After rewatching the god awful prequels in the run up to release I very much disliked the lightsabre battles.

They looked entirely scripted unlike in TFA where they look much closer to a 'real' sword fights.

SimonTemplar

One of the problems with the prequels if that the final duel between Anakin and Obi-wan should have felt monumental and epic. However, when you put your best lightsaber fight in the first prequel, that final fight will ultimately feel like a let down. It doesn't help that Lucas' idea of "epic" is to have them swing above lava and float around on lava on little pieces of metal. As usual, Lucas favoured special effects over human emotion. It's ironic that Rey's fight with Ren had so much more emotional investment that Anakin and Obo-wan's fight.

Probably the best lightsaber fight I've ever seen is in the animated Clone Wars series. I haven't seen the show but this fight is exceptional. I love the many ways that the force is incorporated into the fight and the rain drop evaporating on the lightsaber is a great touch

johnny_ultimate

With Duel of the Fates roaring (still would love to see that masterpiece in a better film, even if thematically it doesn't necessarily sense), the Phantom Menace fight can't help but feel epic. It feels grand (in the 'big' sense) even without the music too, to be fair. But I've always found the force field section bizarre. It's such a pace-breaker, unneeded with the frantic crosscutting between action anyway. It's such a transparent, misjudged and cack-handed way of adding contrived tension in the middle of the duel. Perhaps something more audio-visually visceral could have done the job - like the build up to a Leone shoot-off - but as is, I don't think it works at all and let's down what is a high point of the prequel trilogy (not the most distinguished of accolades, I grant you).

Eugene Norman

Kirby wrote: »

Surely the similarity in score when snoke is on the screen and when Palpatine tells Anakin about Plagueis in ep 3 lends credence to the idea that Snoke and Plagueis are the same person though? It's basically the same musical piece. I know Williams has a distinct sound but he isnt that lazy. Surely its foreshadowing?

I know they distanced themselves very heavily from the prequels and rightfully so.....but I think they have borrowed from it this time.

The score probably represents the office, not the person.

Nervous Wreck

Kirby wrote: »

Surely the similarity in score when snoke is on the screen and when Palpatine tells Anakin about Plagueis in ep 3 lends credence to the idea that Snoke and Plagueis are the same person though? It's basically the same musical piece. I know Williams has a distinct sound but he isnt that lazy. Surely its foreshadowing?

I know they distanced themselves very heavily from the prequels and rightfully so.....but I think they have borrowed from it this time.

I'm sorry but John Williams is exactly that lazy. He put the imperial march in The Last Crusade ffs.

Sad Professor

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

With Duel of the Fates roaring (still would love to see that masterpiece in a better film, even if thematically it doesn't necessarily sense), the Phantom Menace fight can't help but feel epic. It feels grand (in the 'big' sense) even without the music too, to be fair. But I've always found the force field section bizarre. It's such a pace-breaker, unneeded with the frantic crosscutting between action anyway. It's such a transparent, misjudged and cack-handed way of adding contrived tension in the middle of the duel. Perhaps something more audio-visually visceral could have done the job - like the build up to a Leone shoot-off - but as is, I don't think it works at all and let's down what is a high point of the prequel trilogy (not the most distinguished of accolades, I grant you).

I liked the force fields actually. You see some nice unspoken characterisation. Obi-wan hopping; Maul pacing; Qui-gon meditating. I love that they never say anything to each other. Everyone complained about it, though, so in the subsequent duels the characters never stop yapping which really ruined them.

johnny_ultimate

Sad Professor wrote: »

I liked the force fields actually. You see some nice unspoken characterisation. Obi-wan hopping; Maul pacing; Qui-gon meditating. I love that they never say anything to each other. Everyone complained about it, though, so in the subsequent duels the characters never stop yapping which really ruined them.

Certainly the theory behind it is nice, but have always felt it just aggressively jarring in execution. I think the fields themselves feel too random and convenient an addition, and Lucas lacking the directorial chops to communicate the characterisation as effectively as it could be (Rey looking skyward in this film as a more effective example). And the aforementioned cross cutting already disrupts the pace of the duel anyway - IMO it denies it focus.

Still infinitely preferable to the Revenge... lava shouting match of course :pac:

Sad Professor

Speaking of which, am I the only one who bursts into laughter at this moment in the Sith duel? Everything about it is so funny. The operatic music. The way Obi-wan just stops in the middle of their sword fight (in the middle of a lake of lava no less) to start talking about his guilt. Christensen's whinny delivery of “I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over". Obi-wan’s response. It’s hilarious!

Myrddin

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Lucas has a point though, he did strive to expand on the universe with each movie, introducing new races, hardware, planets, landscapes - it was very much a very credible and constantly expanding 'galaxy'.

Nothing Lucas can say can un-do the catastrophic waste of the prequels made under him. Even the originals were saved by the contributions of others...so it's hard to listen to anything he has to say about Star Wars. He left the franchise as a laughing stock, and Disney looks to be well on the road to salvaging some credibility for it. There's no coming back from that, & whatever he thinks is just noise - he had his chance, & showed us his 'vision', it stank.

That's what's wrong with TFA - it doesn't do enough to draw the viewer into that living and breathing world....in my opinion.

TFA had a lot of damage control to worry about, it managed to achieve this and a lot more by most measures.

Dricmeister

Myrddin wrote: »

it's hard to listen to anything he has to say about Star Wars...whatever he thinks is just noise

Ah come on. Anyone would think that you are talking about a cameraman on Phantom Menace. You're talking about George Lucas! He dreamed it all up. He created Darth Vader FFS!

The prequels aren't as bad as people make out. A trendy industry has sprung up giving out about Jar Jar Binks and the like. Revenge of the Sith is excellent for example.

Means Of Escape

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Just a small point of contention. After rewatching the god awful prequels in the run up to release I very much disliked the lightsabre battles.

They looked entirely scripted unlike in TFA where they look much closer to a 'real' sword fights.

The Darth Maul duel and Count Doku duel were both excellent .Even General Grievous did well given his tutorship by Doku
They projected their abilities with a lightsabre brilliantly and is what set them above all the rest- masters of their craft is what is expected of them
TFA duels looked amateurish and cumbersome and one would think that Kylo Ren desire to finish what Vader started wasn't promising given his poor sabre ability to be even touched by someone who clearly couldn't have remotely the same command of a lightsabre .

pixelburp

Dricmeister wrote: »

Ah come on. Anyone would think that you are talking about a cameraman on Phantom Menace. You're talking about George Lucas! He dreamed it all up. He created Darth Vader FFS!

The prequels aren't as bad as people make out. A trendy industry has sprung up giving out about Jar Jar Binks and the like. Revenge of the Sith is excellent for example.

Darth Vader was as much to do with Ralph McQuarries iconic designs and concept art as Lucas' imagination. Lucas came up with the idea sure and it was his baby, but it was people like McQuarrie and sound designer Ben Burtt who created the shape, design and sound of the Star Wars universe. We owe those people as much thanks and adoration as Lucas.

And while the prequels might take a disproportionate number of attacks, they're still terrible, inert, and naive films.

Wedwood

The prequels were hampered with an outcome that was already known, so Lucas tried to make a series of movies based around the political manoeuvring that saw the rise of the Empire.

Abrams understands people want heroes and characters to root for and made them the centre of his movie, something Lucas lost in the prequels with his underdeveloped characters.

Finn, Rey, Poe and Kylo are far better developed characters, than Anakan, Padme and Obi Wan, which is why TFA succeeds where the prequels didn't.

Liamario

Liamario wrote: »

Watch the full interview. That quote is taken completely out of context.

Lucas responds to 'White Slvers' comment

Poor choice of words, but essentially innocent.

Falthyron

Liamario wrote: »

Lucas responds to 'White Slvers' comment

Poor choice of words, but essentially innocent.

He must have later seen the clause in the agreement with Disney that if he doesn't play ball, they take the money back. :P

Skylinehead

Falthyron wrote: »

He must have later seen the clause in the agreement with Disney that if he doesn't play ball, they take the money back. :P

That would mean he gets Star Wars back...

Tony EH

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Nothing here IMO is as any more or less of a stretch than Luke's insane X-Wing piloting skills in A New Hope

Luke's good piloting skills are mentioned in the film before he goes near an X Wing. He owns a T-16 Skyhopper and regularly uses it in the canyons around Tatooine, shooting at wamp rats, hence his familiarity with flying a T-65 (X Wing) through something like the Death Star trench.

Also, during the battle against the Death Star, he comes close to getting "cooked", has a potentially fatal laser strike absorbed by R2D2 and is nearly whacked by Vader, only to be saved by the intervention of Han Solo.

Tony EH

I love the way Vader's melted helmet resembles a skull.

Kirby

Wedwood wrote: »

Finn, Rey, Poe and Kylo are far better developed characters, than Anakan, Padme and Obi Wan, which is why TFA succeeds where the prequels didn't.

The prequels had laughable characters for sure but TFA doesnt have developed characters either.

Poe Dameron? Developed? "I am good pilot. I fly good. Good pilot is me" is the extent of his development. And just to drive the point home, we have the other characters claim the same thing. We need Finn to proclaim in a middle of a fight, "Wow look how good that pilot is!" It was mighty close to a "Where is Poochy?" moment.

Rey is the quintessential Mary Sue. She is good at everything with no flaws and what took Luke years to learn, she learns in a day. People can theorize about who she is and what she really knows but thats just theories. We can only go on what the film itself presents to us. And they presented us with a Mary Sue.

pixelburp

I think it's less a case of 'developed', and more a case of 'charismatic'; the prequels' writing was dead on the page, and it came out through the actors mouths - nobody could have made that godawful dialogue come alive (witness Anakin's 'sand' monologue).

In contrast, while the TFA cast weren't exactly deep or rich, they were likeable, charismatic and in that sense felt rounder and more 'developed' than the creatures milling about the screen in the prequels. Liking characters goes a long way getting any audience to at least empathise with a cast, be they on the light or dark side. Good, snappy dialogue does a lot of the heavy lifting there imo (witness Joss Wheadon on that front)

Kirby

Thats true I suppose. The dialogue is ridiclous in the prequels and leads to really unlikeable characters. Poe may be one note but at least he talked like a human being.

Myrddin

Dricmeister wrote: »

Ah come on. Anyone would think that you are talking about a cameraman on Phantom Menace. You're talking about George Lucas! He dreamed it all up. He created Darth Vader FFS!

Lucas had near complete control over the prequels, "he dreamed it all up" just doesn't wash with the originals. He damn near ruined the franchise, & I say that as a complete, unadulterated Star Wars fanboy (I hate that word but sometimes it's apt!) I don't rate Lucas very highly at all, & if you look at the first cuts of A New Hope...you'll see what he really 'dreamed up'.

The prequels aren't as bad as people make out. A trendy industry has sprung up giving out about Jar Jar Binks and the like. Revenge of the Sith is excellent for example.

Fanboy that I am, I can't agree there. I've watched the entire saga for the run up to TFA...they're beyond awful. Parts of them are good/decent, but literally a handful of parts is all. Over six hours of film for a handful of decent SW moments.

Nervous Wreck

Kirby wrote: »

The prequels had laughable characters for sure but TFA doesnt have developed characters either.

Poe Dameron? Developed? "I am good pilot. I fly good. Good pilot is me" is the extent of his development. And just to drive the point home, we have the other characters claim the same thing. We need Finn to proclaim in a middle of a fight, "Wow look how good that pilot is!" It was mighty close to a "Where is Poochy?" moment.

Rey is the quintessential Mary Sue. She is good at everything with no flaws and what took Luke years to learn, she learns in a day. People can theorize about who she is and what she really knows but thats just theories. We can only go on what the film itself presents to us. And they presented us with a Mary Sue.

I don't think anyone has claimed Poe to be well developed. He was the most minor of the major players and this film really served only as an introduction as far as his character is concerned.

I was wondering when the whole Mary Sue debate would be regurgitated on here. It is the "in thing" to denigrate TFA with at the moment, I'm surprised it took so long. It doesn't hold up at all though. A Mary Sue is a character who comes in as a normal person but who is somehow great at pretty much everything for no logical reason. We're very clearly shown in the film that Rey has spent most of her life fending for herself. We're shown that there is mystery in her past that hints at Skywalker lineage and possible Jedi training. We're shown a perspicacity for the workings of the force, sure, but it's grounded in the mystery of an origin that we know will later be revealed or developed upon. Rey is only as much a Mary Sue as Jason Bourne is. Bullshít argument is bullshìt.

Riddle101

Sad Professor wrote: »

Speaking of which, am I the only one who bursts into laughter at this moment in the Sith duel? Everything about it is so funny. The operatic music. The way Obi-wan just stops in the middle of their sword fight (in the middle of a lake of lava no less) to start talking about his guilt. Christensen's whinny delivery of “I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over". Obi-wan’s response. It’s hilarious!

It's just as funny as Obi Wan's "I have the high ground comment" then Vader jumps over him only to get his arms and legs cut off, and then horribly burned.

Another funny note is that in Return of the Jedi there's a scene where Luke jumps onto this rail and Vader throws his lightsaber at him to cause the thing to come crashing down. All I could think about was Obi Wan's "I have the high ground comment" again but Vader thinking "Not this time"

I have the high ground

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIslHNMf3g8

Not this time 1:15 - 1:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A

silverharp

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

I don't think anyone has claimed Poe to be well developed. He was the most minor of the major players and this film really served only as an introduction as far as his character is concerned.

I was wondering when the whole Mary Sue debate would be regurgitated on here. It is the "in thing" to denigrate TFA with at the moment, I'm surprised it took so long. It doesn't hold up at all though. A Mary Sue is a character who comes in as a normal person but who is somehow great at pretty much everything for no logical reason. We're very clearly shown in the film that Rey has spent most of her life fending for herself. We're shown that there is mystery in her past that hints at Skywalker lineage and possible Jedi training. We're shown a perspicacity for the workings of the force, sure, but it's grounded in the mystery of an origin that we know will later be revealed or developed upon. Rey is only as much a Mary Sue as Jason Bourne is. Bullshít argument is bullshìt.

mary sue or not, there was an element of feminist boloxology "dont hold my hand"...you go sister! :pac: and whatever back story they want to pull her knowing the Falcon better than Han was just pandering

Gbear

silverharp wrote: »

mary sue or not, there was an element of feminist boloxology "dont hold my hand"...you go sister! :pac: and whatever back story they want to pull her knowing the Falcon better than Han was just pandering

I think they're pretty commonly used devices - the savant newbie upstaging the grizzled veteran - Han is the premiere smuggler/petty criminal/git in the galaxy and Finn is a soldier.

There were elements of it in ANH with Luke as well.

That Rey's a woman only flavours the interaction slightly differently.

Sad Professor

Rey being a good mechanic makes perfect sense given her background. She's a scavenger and has probably been fixing up ships using scrap parts since she was a child. Besides, when did we ever see Han prove his mechanical prowess? Isn't half the plot of TESB the result of his and Chewie's failure to fix the hyperdrive on the Falcon?

Her being a good pilot isn't a problem either. This is Star Wars. Flying a spaceship is like driving a car in our world. If Luke, a hilly billy, could go from shooting rats in his T-16 (which we're only ever told about) to taking part in space battles with trained fighter pilots, then Rey can use an environment she's very familiar with (the interior of a crashed Star Destroyer) to outmanoeuvre Tie Fighters. Rey knows this environment, we see her crawling around in it in her first scene; the Tie Fighter pilots don't. What she does isn't extraordinary, it's just smart.

And her skills with a lightsaber against a seriously injured, emotionally compromised and arrogant foe are being massively overblown as well. In the film I saw she spends most of the duel being forced back toward the edge of a cliff.

And as for her Force abilities, yes she's untrained but the movie is called "The Force Awakens"!! The Force has awakened in her. It calls to her through Luke's lightsaber. Give her visions and the power to defeat Kylo. Remember what Obi-wan told Luke about the Force in ANH? How it partially controls your actions and if you just let go it will flow through you? So much of Luke's training both with Obi-wan and Yoda is about this: letting go. Luke has trouble with it. Well, Rey apparently doesn't. And once that power has awakened in her she's becomes very powerful very fast, as Kylo warns after she escapes.

MRnotlob606

I wanna get my light sabre out for carrie fisher.