Star Wars: The Force Awakens [** SPOILERS FROM POST 4472 ONWARD **]

wally79

Mickeroo wrote: »

If we take that as true there's no way Luke could have bested Vader in ROTJ. He was much too old when he started training and received very little training at that, liiterally none between Empire Strikes Back and ROTJ in fact, which is the period he was supposed to have mastered his powers.

But this would be more akin to Luke being able to defeat Vader in ANH.

Rae thought Luke was just a myth and only felt the force in action for the first time that day yet she is able to use Jedi mind tricks and defeat Ren hours later.

Fair enough it can be explained away but they could have made it more plausible.

Mickeroo

Wibbs wrote: »

Not quite how it happened. Luke got handed his arse and hand on a plate in Empire, comes back in Return a little more together, but still gets his arse handed to him. The only reason he bests Vader - and this is a major plot point so I dunno how you missed it? - is he loses the rag when Vader suggests turning his sister and goes all Dark Side. Y'know the easy the seductive and all that. That's how he bests Vader and precisely what the Emperor wants. Luke then steps back from that abyss, at which point the Emperor really screws him up to near death and Luke's not close to a match for him, only for daddy to pull a guilty and sacrifice himself killing the Emperor.

I didn't miss that part at all, I just don't buy it, it's still him being more adept at using the force to beat Vader. I would choose to explain it by pointing out he was able to beat him because Vader is wavering with the light and is struggling with his own force allegiances at the time, which is fine, but that's also one of a few reasons Rey defeats Kylo.

And he doesn't come back in ROTJ a little more together imo, he's like a different character in the opening scenes on Tatooine, with the quiet confidence and certainty that Jabba is signing his own death warrant by not complying to his requests etc.

quad_red

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Watching the films though it works Luke gradually gets more powerful over three whole films even if the training isnt always explicitly shown.
Where has Rey to grow? she is already good at literally everything, yes emo vader was injured etc but as a film goer you've seen her beat every challenge fairly easily.

Ren had just killed his father and had been reflecting constantly on his emotional turmoil. He was then shot by Chewie's bolt caster which we saw one hit smash storm troopers numerous times during the film. Ren then spends the entire lead up to the fight and during the initial light sabre duel with Finn, literally punching his bleeding wounds furthering his blood loss.

Ren is neither physically capable, nor emotionally focused in that scene. He tells Han that he is being torn apart.

Rey, on the other hand, is being gifted unprecedented clarity and empowerment as she feels the force flow through her. She spends most of the battle against Ren in retreat as well. She is hardly swinging the light sabre around like Darth Maul. She is using the combat skills she showcased when the henchmen tried to take BB-8 off her on Jakku.

wally79

Wibbs wrote: »

Not quite how it happened. Luke got handed his arse and hand on a plate in Empire, comes back in Return a little more together, but still gets his arse handed to him. The only reason he bests Vader - and this is a major plot point so I dunno how you missed it? - is he loses the rag when Vader suggests turning his sister and goes all Dark Side. Y'know the easy the seductive and all that. That's how he bests Vader and precisely what the Emperor wants. Luke then steps back from that abyss, at which point the Emperor really screws him up to near death and Luke's not close to a match for him, only for daddy to pull a guilty and sacrifice himself killing the Emperor.

Add to this that vader isn't on his dark side A game

"Your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict."

Wibbs

Mickeroo wrote: »

pretty much no lightsabre training bar the blindfold/laser blaster (which he could literally do straight away!!). I don't think Abrams should get the blame for this one, the precedent was set in the originals, though to a lesser degree.

To a far lesser degree. I dunno what originals you've been watching M. If you watch the first one again(77 flic) and try to ignore what followed and what was readied up to precede it, you may find it's a slightly different film than you remember. And no he couldn't do the floating widget sabre trainer straight away. A tiny droid blasted him in the arse. Before that he got his head near stoved in by a Tusken raider and Ben had to help him out and again help he had to him out when some dodgy bar crawlers tried to pick a fight with him. Then we get to the Death Star and Luke is as much in the way as anything. Leia isn't so sure of him at all and she also gets him out of a bind. Then when he finally blows the Death Star he only does so because ghost Ben and Han and Chewie save the day. His big deal was surviving and using the force to pull the bomb release. That's it. In the second one Empire he gets better, but not by much. He's not great at the oul force stuff and again he needs lots of help to survive and daddy kicks his arse.

Where the originals do go into Rey territory(and as you note) is in the third where he's skipped a few years in Jedi school. Even then as I pointed out he barely makes it out alive and without daddy he wouldn't have.

And he doesn't come back in ROTJ a little more together imo, he's like a different character in the opening scenes on Tatooine, with the quiet confidence and certainty that Jabba is signing his own death warrant by not complying to his requests etc.

And he still nearly gets killed for his hubris.

wally79 wrote: »

Rae thought Luke was just a myth and only felt the force in action for the first time that day yet she is able to use Jedi mind tricks and defeat Ren hours later.

Exactly. Though I think it may be the case that audiences these days need things to happen quickly or even just happen, in between flash bangs and rollercoaster storytelling.

eviltimeban

Maybe REY is the chosen one, "the one the prophecy spoke of". Maybe it wasn't Anakin at all, but his grandchild - if we're assuming that Rey is Luke's daughter.

Therefore she could literally be THE most powerful-with-the-force person in the galaxy, and can master in days what other Jedis take years to do. Just an idea.

Poe was leading up to being my favourite character on the screen, right up until the Tie Fighter crash; he had energy, wit, looked the part... then it was like, where's he gone?

wally79

eviltimeban wrote: »

Maybe REY is the chosen one, "the one the prophecy spoke of". Maybe it wasn't Anakin at all, but his grandchild - if we're assuming that Rey is Luke's daughter.

Therefore she could literally be THE most powerful-with-the-force person in the galaxy, and can master in days what other Jedis take years to do. Just an idea.

Poe was leading up to being my favourite character on the screen, right up until the Tie Fighter crash; he had energy, wit, looked the part... then it was like, where's he gone?

Like I said earlier it can be explained away. It's a sci fi movie about an unseen power, you can explain anything away.

It just seemed a bit like lazy storytelling to me

Sad Professor

eviltimeban wrote: »

Maybe REY is the chosen one, "the one the prophecy spoke of". Maybe it wasn't Anakin at all, but his grandchild - if we're assuming that Rey is Luke's daughter.

This theory works better if she isn't a Skywalker. It would mean Anakin and his bloodline were devil spawn. He wasn’t the saviour but the antichrist. And Rey, an orphan abandoned and left for dead by her uncaring parents, is the true chosen one, destined to destroy the last of the (cursed) Skywalker line and restore balance to the Force.

Of course doing this would mean referencing those awful prequels with their virgin births. And it would give credence to the Plagueis theories.

It's the same in Trek forum, people making excuses for plot holes and inconsistencies

Mickeroo

Wibbs wrote: »

To a far lesser degree. I dunno what originals you've been watching M. If you watch the first one again(77 flic) and try to ignore what followed and what was readied up to precede it, you may find it's a slightly different film than you remember. And no he couldn't do the floating widget sabre trainer straight away. A tiny droid blasted him in the arse. Before that he got his head near stoved in by a Tusken raider and Ben had to help him out and again help he had to him out when some dodgy bar crawlers tried to pick a fight with him. Then we get to the Death Star and Luke is as much in the way as anything. Leia isn't so sure of him at all and she also gets him out of a bind. Then when he finally blows the Death Star he only does so because ghost Ben and Han and Chewie save the day. His big deal was surviving and using the force to pull the bomb release. That's it. In the second one Empire he gets better, but not by much. He's not great at the oul force stuff and again he needs lots of help to survive and daddy kicks his arse.

Where the originals do go into Rey territory(and as you note) is in the third where he's skipped a few years in Jedi school. Even then as I pointed out he barely makes it out alive and without daddy he wouldn't have.

And he still nearly gets killed for his hubris.

Exactly. Though I think it may be the case that audiences these days need things to happen quickly or even just happen, in between flash bangs and rollercoaster storytelling.

I watched the first one again over a year ago (hence the haziness) and the other two a few weeks ago , but most of my misgivings came from the jump between V and VI. I think VI isn't a very good film in general though, more an ok one with some great scenes.

I agree Rey's quick use of the force was a bit jarring but I just think too many people are giving the original films too much credit too. Ironically, if I hadn't rewatched the originals so recently I'd probably be on the "it happened too quickly" train too.

I think Abrams has made the second best Star Wars film ever and the best Star Trek film ever, might be an unpopular opinion from a life long SW/ST fan but such is the nature of subjectivity I suppose.

Mr Freeze

Mickeroo wrote: »

I think Abrams has made the second best Star Wars film ever and the best Star Trek film ever, might be an unpopular opinion from a life long SW/ST fan but such is the nature of subjectivity I suppose.

I would be inclined to agree with this, the point about Star Wars that is. Not into Star Trek at all.

Mitch Connor

Deleted User wrote: »

It's the same in Trek forum, people making excuses for plot holes and inconsistencies

Thats BS, imo.

This is the first movie of a trilogy. You argument, partly, is that everything should have been explained in the first movie. What is the point in the other 2 if we get all the answers in the first one?

Yes there are problems in this movie - I don't like the reliance on coincidence, nor some of the character development (both in this movie and between the original s and now) - and some of the dialog is terrible.

but Rey being as strong as she is will only be a problem (imo) if there is no reasonable backstory provided in the remaining movies. There are decent theories to explain why she is so strong - the possibility of her being a skywalker seem big enough, or at least trained by Luke in the academy - and there are (imo) hints towards this in this movie.

I really dislike the trend for people to demand a screen time answer to everything in a movie, or just refusing to accept answers that are provided.

Why is Rey so mechanically smart? Why not, as a scavenger it would help. Anakin was also a fecking brainbox - building C3PO (arf!) and a pod racer - a lot younger.
Why is she talented with a lighsaber? Why not, it is basically just a sword and she had already shown considerable ability with a quaterstaff earlier in the movie. Maybe defending herself with a melee type weapon is a skill needed on Jakku, as evidenced earlier in the movie.
Why is she so strong in the force so quickly? Luke was able to bat away blaster shots while blindfolded within minutes of trying. Maybe Rey is stronger. maybe we will get a full (or fuller) explanation in the next movie.

As I say, this movie has big problems:

Poe is crap. His relationship with Finn is startingly close for no real reason. His reappearance is an absolute mess of directing.
The lack of explanation of the First Order/Republic/Resistence (seemingly on the cutting room floor). There are a good few others, so I am not blind to the faults of this movie; I just don't see really big problem with Rey, at least not until we have learned more about her. If it turns out she is just some random kid from some random planet I will change my mind on her in this movie - but as I see good reasons for thinking that isn't the case, I'm willing to accept her abilities in this movie while looking forward to the explanation.

Remember, Ren is specifically concerned about a young woman, says something like 'it is you!' when interrogating her, and is entirely unsurprised by her mastery, even warning the stormtroopers she must be found quickly for exactly that reason. There is more than enough reason to believe there is a lot more to Rey to come - and until it does it is not a plot hole, it is simply a plot point in a 3 movie story.

py2006

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Poe is crap. His relationship with Finn is startingly close for no real reason. His reappearance is an absolute mess of directing.

Do you not think there may be something yet revealed in relation to his disappearance from the wreckage and reappearance later?

Radiosonde

eviltimeban wrote: »

Poe was leading up to being my favourite character on the screen, right up until the Tie Fighter crash; he had energy, wit, looked the part... then it was like, where's he gone?

Good character certainly, but they were establishing two new leads and reintroducing Han - more Poe would have been distracting. Next time, hopefully.

Mitch Connor

py2006 wrote: »

Do you not think there may be something yet revealed in relation to his disappearance from the wreckage and reappearance later?

It could very well do - i was certain it would turn out he had been turned by the First Order, but the actions in the movie would indicate otherwise.

Nothing that happens in the movie would indicate, to me anyway, that there is significantly more to that story. If he was a clone or a double agent, why blow up the starkiller base, or whatever its called. Why help fight off the FO forces?

Considering he was scripted to be killed in the crash, I reckon there was little planning behind and poor direction executing it.

Radiosonde

py2006 wrote: »

Do you not think there may be something yet revealed in relation to his disappearance from the wreckage and reappearance later?

This is a point Anita Sarkeesian's review of TFA makes. Most new relationships in the movie aren't convincingly set up: Finn and Poe, Finn and Rey, Han and Rey, Rey and Leia. They are thrust together for a few scenes and suddenly develop intense bonds. The Rey/Han father figure business was particularly silly.

Mr Freeze

Radiosonde wrote: »

This is a point Anita Sarkeesian's review of TFA makes. Most new relationships in the movie aren't convincingly set up: Finn and Poe, Finn and Rey, Han and Rey, Rey and Leia. They are thrust together for a few scenes and suddenly develop intense bonds. The Rey/Han father figure business was particularly silly.

Surely there had to be more scenes fleshing this out, but ended up on the editing room floor.

Same with the mourning Han, there was surprisingly little there.

wally79

Radiosonde wrote: »

This is a point Anita Sarkeesian's review of TFA makes. Most new relationships in the movie aren't convincingly set up: Finn and Poe, Finn and Rey, Han and Rey, Rey and Leia. They are thrust together for a few scenes and suddenly develop intense bonds. The Rey/Han father figure business was particularly silly.

And as was mentioned earlier the existing relationships seem to be brushed aside.

After Hans death Chewie walks straight past the same Leia he gave a big hug to earlier and Leia is smiling when hugging Rey. She doesn't seem as devastated as I would expect.

quad_red

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Thats BS, imo.

This is the first movie of a trilogy. You argument, partly, is that everything should have been explained in the first movie. What is the point in the other 2 if we get all the answers in the first one?

Remember, Ren is specifically concerned about a young woman, says something like 'it is you!' when interrogating her, and is entirely unsurprised by her mastery, even warning the stormtroopers she must be found quickly for exactly that reason. There is more than enough reason to believe there is a lot more to Rey to come - and until it does it is not a plot hole, it is simply a plot point in a 3 movie story.

THIS! Lads, the level of angst that all plot lines weren't resolved in this movie is a bit weird.

Like people feeling short changed that Luke was only in the film at the end - why? He'll obviously have a much larger role in the next film.

The same with Poe Dameron - he's introduced as a resistance ace and it means it's not just faceless X-wing pilots going up against the star killer at the end.

But I didn't feel short changed that we really only got introduced to him briefly. He's going to have a bigger role in the second one. And I felt his relationship with Finn worked. Finn is surrounded by brain washed storm troopers, his conditioning having worn off. Poe may be his first encounter with a normal, if exceptionally charming, non brainwashed person. Poe's assumption that all storm troopers were mindless automatons is blown away by Finn's appearance and Poe is buccaneering enough to take advantage.

What were people expecting out of a 90 minutes film with so many different characters to introduce?

Radiosonde

wally79 wrote: »

And as was mentioned earlier the existing relationships seem to be brushed aside.

After Hans death Chewie walks straight past the same Leia he gave a big hug to earlier and Leia is smiling when hugging Rey. She doesn't seem as devastated as I would expect.

A similar thing happens in a ANH. Luke seems to quickly forget his aunt and uncle - the people who raised him - but when Obi-Wan dies, he languishes gloomily on the Falcon, telling Leia, "I can't believe he's gone" - the old hermit guy he has known all of about 3 days. That kind of thing is a general problem in Star Wars (Leia got over the obliteration of her home world too).

wally79

Radiosonde wrote: »

A similar thing happens in a ANH. Luke seems to quickly forget his aunt and uncle - the people who raised him - but when Obi-Wan dies, he languishes gloomily on the Falcon, telling Leia, "I can't believe he's gone" - the old hermit guy he has known all of about 3 days. That kind of thing is a general problem in Star Wars (Leia got over the obliteration of her home world too).

Yeah that always strikes me too. By the time he gets to Mos Eisley he's grand. At least in the prequels Anakins mothers death pushes him towards the dark side in his poorly acted grief.

jones

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Remember, Ren is specifically concerned about a young woman, says something like 'it is you!' when interrogating her, and is entirely unsurprised by her mastery, even warning the stormtroopers she must be found quickly for exactly that reason. There is more than enough reason to believe there is a lot more to Rey to come - and until it does it is not a plot hole, it is simply a plot point in a 3 movie story.

This is the part that stuck out in my mind after seeing TFA twice. Ren is immediately concerned when he hears about a random woman with the droid he's looking for (BB8) and every time he hears word of her or meets her its like he knows her. There is clearly some back story going on here that we haven't been shown yet.

I dont think its a coincidence how good she is with the force and how quickly she takes to it. I've a feeling there's a lot more to her past than is being let on...and i'm not just talking about her being Luke's possible daughter.

My theory and i'm sure it's been said elsewhere, is she's clearly had some training already whether she remembers it or not. It reminds me of the "Knights of the old republic" game and the main character called Revan (sp?)

Or maybe i'm totally wrong and she's just super quick

Conall Cernach

py2006 wrote: »

Do you not think there may be something yet revealed in relation to his disappearance from the wreckage and reappearance later?

When I was watching it I assumed that Kylo Ren was doing some sort of Dark Side brain washing trick on him and that he was released on purpose. His escape is very hand-wavy otherwise. Finn does give him a weird look when they're all getting ready for the attack.

py2006

Conall Cernach wrote: »

When I was watching it I assumed that Kylo Ren was doing some sort of Dark Side brain washing trick on him and that he was released on purpose. His escape is very hand-wavy otherwise. Finn does give him a weird look when they're all getting ready for the attack.

You took the words right out of my mouth

Mickeroo

Think you're reading too much into that tbh, don't think there was any more significance than mutual concern and fear before a battle. Never know though I guess, but I think if it was the case that there was more to it would have come to fruition in this film rather than a sequel. Chekhov's gun and all that.

py2006

Mickeroo wrote: »

Think you're reading too much into that tbh, don't think there was any more significance than mutual concern and fear before a battle. Never know though I guess, but I think if it was the case that there was more to it would have come to fruition in this film rather than a sequel. Chekhov's gun and all that.

You're probably right, it just seems almost l like a calamitous error on the directors part to have him disappear and reappear like that.

Finn did look for a body and seem confused as to why there was none and then when ship sunk he assumed Poe was dead.

Mickeroo

py2006 wrote: »

You're probably right, it just seems almost l like a calamitous error on the directors part to have him disappear and reappear like that.

Finn did look for a body and seem confused as to why there was none and then when ship sunk he assumed Poe was dead.

Yeah it was clunky, though I never thought he was dead once there wasn't a body if ya get me. Apparently he died there originally and I'm inclined to believe it considering the way it played out. I wonder was it down to Isaac becoming a bit more of a big deal in the last two years.

Baggy Trousers

Small thing I know but I noticed in the movie that there were quite a number of other islands on the way to the 2 Skellig Rocks. I thought they stood alone? I thought they would look better with just the 2 of them.

silverharp

Radiosonde wrote: »

This is a point Anita Sarkeesian's review of TFA makes. Most new relationships in the movie aren't convincingly set up: Finn and Poe, Finn and Rey, Han and Rey, Rey and Leia. They are thrust together for a few scenes and suddenly develop intense bonds. The Rey/Han father figure business was particularly silly.

Anita sarky really? These are the type of reviewers that get people's goat up as their main metric is how progressive a movie is.
There was an article in the Washington Post wanting Muslims to be represented... I sh1t you not.

namloc1980

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Small thing I know but I noticed in the movie that there were quite a number of other islands on the way to the 2 Skellig Rocks. I thought they stood alone? I thought they would look better with just the 2 of them.

CGI islands