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Star Wars: The Force Awakens [** SPOILERS FROM POST 4472 ONWARD **]
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helimachoptor wrote: »
a few questions
- No point building a bigger badder weapon, with a bigger flaw, i mean come on people
Simply put. It's bog standard lazy writing. nothing else.helimachoptor wrote: »- Why did they move away from the clone army?
As far as I know, the Clone army had accelerated growth which meant they were a limited item. Somewhere between the end of the ****ty sequels and 'Star Wars', the Empire started to hire humans sympathetic to their cause and also instituted a program of raising youngsters specifically for military service.helimachoptor wrote: »- The new big bad, where did he come from?
From out of nowhere. But I suppose there has to be some sort of arch baddie. Maybe it'll become clearer in the next couple of films.helimachoptor wrote: »- What are the knights of ren?
They're guy love this fella:
Seriously...I have no idea.0 -
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And as was mentioned earlier the existing relationships seem to be brushed aside.
After Hans death Chewie walks straight past the same Leia he gave a big hug to earlier and Leia is smiling when hugging Rey. She doesn't seem as devastated as I would expect.
Well the only thing about that is you have to remember they were separated, a while at least, so we are led to believe. They weren't "together" anymore. We can assume she hadn't seen Chewie in that time either, but it was weird he just walked by her. It was right at the edge of the shot so he might be edited for the Blu Ray.
Then in the wider shot Chewie is just standing there while the crowd celebrate.0 -
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Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,410 CMod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 28122
There seems to be a few people on here determined to denigrate the original films in order to try and elevate 'The Force Awakens' for some reason.
The reason is very simple: it's an honest opinion
I have been thoroughly let down by A New Hope when I've rewatched it on two occasions over recent years. I find much of it totally tedious if I'm being honest - a shallow, haphazardly structured film that lacks the spark my childhood imagination was decent enough to lend it. It has it's fair share of memorable and iconic moments, undeniably, but I also believe a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of character and world building was done in subsequent films, Empire particularly (which, let me restress, is a wonderful film I barely have a bad word about). It's a hard film to examine without the benefit of hindsight. Darth Vader is a good example - I think a lot of what makes him such a memorable villain happens in the subsequent films (from a certain music cue to his relationships with other characters), and indeed he can come across as faintly preposterous and generally cartoonish in the original film. Yet it can be tricky to separate Star Wars as a standalone film and the series as a whole.
The Force Awakens, on t'other hand, feels substantially more comfortable in its own skin. It's pacier, it's funnier (not that there isn't a few decent laughs in A New Hope), it's more immediately gratifying (which yes could be a negative thing depending on your response to the film). The characters feel IMO more distinctly drawn, and visually it's an absolute pleasure to watch. I say all this has somebody who has happily tolerated and subsequently adored numerous 4-10 hour long films that move at a glacial pace - I'm far from attention deficit, but sometimes I appreciate a roller coaster.
Are there flaws? Without question, and they've been discussed at length throughout the thread (some I agree with more than others of course). But I genuinely believe it's a more accomplished and enjoyable film than all but one of its predecessors - not necessarily as creative, but definitely more expertly crafted. And I also think it displays evidence of more robust forward planning than the original film does - a lot of the supposed holes and gaps are things I found legitimately intriguing, with plenty of space to be developed on in the forthcoming sequels. It's an excellent self-contained film on its own terms as far as I'd be concerned, but with plenty of space to develop on ideas, characters and narrative strands under explored here - whether on purpose or otherwise.
It goes without saying that every sentence above should contain an IMO clause, although I'd hope we all inherently add that to any internet argument
But there's no science to this **** - it's an opinion I stand by, and I know you're not going to agree
As an aside, on the Rey being super-powerful thing. While it's one of the dangling strands I'm looking forward to seeing expanded on in the next films, I'd also put forward that it's something that separates it from what came before. Do we need another trilogy seeing a character's gradual growth from desert planet dreamer to Jedi Master? We've been through that already. One of the benefits of establishing Rey's powers so rapidly and explicitly here - crudely at times for sure - is that there's now room to push the story in new directions. None of us are any the wiser to what happens next, but that Rey is already at a standard at least equal to Luke at the end of the RotJ (probably even well beyond - can't forget that it was actually Anakin who managed to defeat the Emperor while a weakened Luke watched on) suggests to me anyway that there's new narrative ground left to sow in Episode VIII and beyond. There's substantial space to push Kylo in unique directions too. But hey, I'll get back to you on all that in 18 months.0 -
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Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,410 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 28122
I've watched many of the longest, slowest, oldest, most difficult films in cinema history. I loved the majority of them. I find the vast majority of contemporary blockbusters dull, repetitive and uninspired. I also reckoned The Force Awakens was an absolute blast.
Please don't disregard everyone who liked this film as some ADD-riddled, undemanding one size fits all 'modern audience' 0 -
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Ditto, for context too the film I saw in the cinema before TFA was Out 1. A film so long, challenging and slow that it had to be screened over a weekend with various intermissions.johnny_ultimate wrote: »I've watched many of the longest, slowest, oldest, most difficult films in cinema history. I loved the majority of them. I find the vast majority of contemporary blockbusters dull, repetitive and uninspired. I also reckoned The Force Awakens was an absolute blast.
Please don't disregard everyone who liked this film as some ADD-riddled, undemanding one size fits all 'modern audience' 0 -
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johnny_ultimate wrote: »The reason is very simple: it's an honest opinion
I have been thoroughly let down by A New Hope when I've rewatched it on two occasions over recent years. I find much of it totally tedious if I'm being honest - a shallow, haphazardly structured film that lacks the spark my childhood imagination was decent enough to lend it. It has it's fair share of memorable and iconic moments, undeniably, but I also believe a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of character and world building was done in subsequent films, Empire particularly (which, let me restress, is a wonderful film I barely have a bad word about). It's a hard film to examine without the benefit of hindsight. Darth Vader is a good example - I think a lot of what makes him such a memorable villain happens in the subsequent films (from a certain music cue to his relationships with other characters), and indeed he can come across as faintly preposterous and generally cartoonish in the original film. Yet it can be tricky to separate Star Wars as a standalone film and the series as a whole.
The Force Awakens, on t'other hand, feels substantially more comfortable in its own skin. It's pacier, it's funnier (not that there isn't a few decent laughs in A New Hope), it's more immediately gratifying (which yes could be a negative thing depending on your response to the film). The characters feel IMO more distinctly drawn, and visually it's an absolute pleasure to watch. I say all this has somebody who has happily tolerated and subsequently adored numerous 4-10 hour long films that move at a glacial pace - I'm far from attention deficit, but sometimes I appreciate a roller coaster.
I think I disagree with just about everything up there Johnny.
In addition, we're talking about a $200 Million Dollar film with endless financing, the current high tech in everything, a bolted on audience, ad nauseum vs a $10 film, that by any standards was a miracle it was greenlit at all, never mind actually completed that changed cinema forever (although the result certainly wasn't good).
And still the 1977 film is a better film over all. :P
In fact, the more I watch the original 'Star Wars' (god bless you Harmy!) the better it gets and I must be into triple digits by now.0 -
I cannot understand some of the posts on this thread that I have read. Everyone is screaming for a Star Wars film like the originals (by this I mean episode IV, V and VI). Fine.
But then they complain that The Force Awakens is just a "poor reboot" of the originals and there is too much coincidence and that they are just using the old characters like Han and Leia etc for the sake of it, to keep the older/original fans happy, and that they have ruin Star Wars the way they ruined Trek (which I wholeheartedly disagree with btw) And also give out about the new characters and how they are emo, and too goodie goodie and not believable?!?!?
Come on! JJ Abrams is a director (albeit one that is a massive Star Wars fan!) who was hired to do a job, which was to make a triolgy of films to follow on from the most successful movie franchise of all time (that may not be a fact but it should be). Not only had a he a massive legacy to live up to, all the hype, expectation and critisism that comes with trying to please everyone. Which we all know is impossible. I am sure that he and his crew did their best because it they are fans too and believe 100% in what they were making. I really think people are being too harsh by calling it lazy writing and a lazy script. I didn't have any issues with the script, and for those that do I would love for you to point out some examples and I'll reassess. and as for plot holes, they have to keep some stuff back for the other two films!!!
I think if I wanted a franchise revived and brought to a new generation , I would give it to JJ Abrams and feel it was in safe hands. Trek was nearly dead and he gave it the kick up the arse it needed. But whether it was the one people wanted or not is another argument. But you cannot argue that it wasn't a successful film. I think the Force Awakens will bring Star Wars to a new generation which can only be a good thing.
As for the ones giving out about Rey being super good at using the Force, IMO its no quicker that Luke became super good at using the Force in ANH.
I agree though that I thought Chewie and Leia would be a bit more upset. And that Kylo should have left the mask on.
And for the record I love Poe Dameron
There!
That post was way longer than I intended ( with too many ! marks. sorry.) And I am fully ready for the backlash from the diehards. This is just my opinion.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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Because it's a kids film and always was. It's also nearly 40 years old in a genre(it pretty much created) where technology at getting that genre onscreen has come on in staggering ways.johnny_ultimate wrote: »I have been thoroughly let down by A New Hope when I've rewatched it on two occasions over recent years. I find much of it totally tedious if I'm being honest - a shallow, haphazardly structured film that lacks the spark my childhood imagination was decent enough to lend it.
Clearly, as TFA has blatantly stolen from it near scene for scene for much of the film. If we were to list scene by scene the clear commonalities; a) it would, or should be embarrassing and b) would show the near cynical lack of novel thinking involved to get the ticket sales.It has it's fair share of memorable and iconic moments, undeniably
He was a minor enough baddie set alongside the great big baddy of the empire in the original film. And Lucas was getting more and more unsure of him, hence he's in the first film for only around ten minutes.It's a hard film to examine without the benefit of hindsight. Darth Vader is a good example - I think a lot of what makes him such a memorable villain happens in the subsequent films (from a certain music cue to his relationships with other characters), and indeed he can come across as faintly preposterous and generally cartoonish in the original film.
Because Star Wars was a standalone film. Lucas has bullshítted so much, so many times over so many years about this, but he really saw it as a one off. Luke's da gets killed by Vader, he's no relation to Luke. Indeed for all his force skill he's seconds away from killing his own son at the Death Star. Leia is the fairy tale princess, but no shrinking violet is she and she was Luke's love interest. Not his sister. All that came later, even within the early writing of Empire. The huge success changed all that and so he dug deep into his massive back notes of the various original scripts and ran with it. Very pretty well to be fair. This was the man who gave us Howard the Duck after all, though in fairness much of Indiana Jones too.Yet it can be tricky to separate Star Wars as a standalone film and the series as a whole.
And well it should given all it's doing is remaking the original flic with a ready fan base, a mahoosive budget and the benefit of hindsight and laser sharp marketing of the last 40 years. Though the notion that some are suggesting that Finn is a token black role, Lando Calrissian was the Token Black role and no amount of "he was cool" can cover that up. Even as a kid I felt a bit odd about that. That and the fact that the original trilogy had feck all women at all in it. One in a main role and that was it.The Force Awakens, on t'other hand, feels substantially more comfortable in its own skin.
Well crafted yes, but not necessarily as creative? Ehhh… Seriously? There is barely an original thought or scene in the script.not necessarily as creative, but definitely more expertly crafted.
Sure if you want to throw out the hero's journey that's been around since god was a boy(hell, even Jesus follows it) in favour of another angle on it. Cool if you can pull it off, but I really don't think someone like Abrams has a tenth of the talent required to do so.As an aside, on the Rey being super-powerful thing. While it's one of the dangling strands I'm looking forward to seeing expanded on in the next films, I'd also put forward that it's something that separates it from what came before. Do we need another trilogy seeing a character's gradual growth from desert planet dreamer to Jedi Master? We've been through that already
Welllll…. the first one was, the second one was a little bit of a blip and the third went back to the kids market. They were family/kids films by design from the outset. A cartoon Dune/Samurai flic for the family market and nothing wrong with that. Especially as it brought so many new elements into cinema. I don't wanna sound like an old fart here, but my god it was a massive revelation for this eleven year old back in the day. We'd quite simply not seen anything like it. Science fiction was mostly very creaky B&W Flash Gordon reruns of a Saturday morning(so we were used to seeing the opening vanishing point text thing and the wipe style edits), Star Trek which even then was dated and Doctor Who. I used wee myself when 2001 might show up as a Saturday matinee, but I was a weird fcuker.enfant terrible wrote: »Exactly, I think we need to remember which I didn't before watching TFA, is these movies are made for kids and not for me. It's hard for people who've seen it latterly to appreciate just how much of a mind fcuk it was and how cool a universe we suddenly had to inhabit and play around in. Hell I even helped a mate of mine shoot his own fan film on super 8, I built new spaceships and model sets. I was the John Dykstra dude, mainly cos I had loads of Airfix kits.
The thing is those kids grew up and wanted more adult themes/their childhood back/comic book guy nerdgasms. The newer fans were likely near adults on their first encounter with that universe. Very hard market to please, hence Disney went with TFA the way it did. It's a very well surface crafted fanflic for the 21st century market.
True enough. It's very clear they know each other well enough.It's established in 'Star Wars' that Luke knows Ben Kenobi quite well and Ben knows Luke too. They didn't just meet halfway through 'Star Wars'.
IMH it's as much down to the sheer relief that it's not the prequels again and we have a "New Hope" again. Literally. Look how many folks are saying "OK, yes this may have issues, but wait'll you see the next two, it's setting them up to be brilliant". I'm quite sure they won't be nearly as disappointed as they were with the prequels, but will they be good stories? That's a wait and see vibe at the moment. I suspect some of the lower budget spinoffs will be where some decent stuff gets made, because it won't be as much under the Disney beady eye.There seems to be a few people on here determined to denigrate the original films in order to try and elevate 'The Force Awakens' for some reason.
The difference between the two is quite literally the definition of chalk and cheese. I'm sometimes wondering if some haven't seen the first one or are going on memory? In the first one Luke blows up the Death Star in the nick of time and with help(some are bitching about the Rey "don't hold my hand" yet Luke is handheld nigh on throughout, inc Leia), that's about his lot. The rest of the time he's almost getting in the way. He's arguably one member in an ensemble cast of heroes, but becomes the main hero because of the big change from when we first see him(Leia is already kicking arse as a politician and rebel leader, Ben Kenobi is a retired warrior and Han and Chewie are... well Han and Chewie).SarahBM wrote:As for the ones giving out about Rey being super good at using the Force, IMO its no quicker that Luke became super good at using the Force in ANH.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Because it's a kids film and always was. It's also nearly 40 years old in a genre(it pretty much created) where technology at getting that genre onscreen has come on in staggering ways.
Clearly, as TFA has blatantly stolen from it near scene for scene for much of the film. If we were to list scene by scene the clear commonalities; a) it would, or should be embarrassing and b) would show the near cynical lack of novel thinking involved to get the ticket sales.
He was a minor enough baddie set alongside the great big baddy of the empire in the original film. And Lucas was getting more and more unsure of him, hence he's in the first film for only around ten minutes. Because Star Wars was a standalone film. Lucas has bullshítted so much, so many times over so many years about this, but he really saw it as a one off. Luke's da gets killed by Vader, he's no relation to Luke. Indeed for all his force skill he's seconds away from killing his own son at the Death Star. Leia is the fairy tale princess, but no shrinking violet is she and she was Luke's love interest. Not his sister. All that came later, even within the early writing of Empire. The huge success changed all that and so he dug deep into his massive back notes of the various original scripts and ran with it. Very pretty well to be fair. This was the man who gave us Howard the Duck after all, though in fairness much of Indiana Jones too.
And well it should given all it's doing is remaking the original flic with a ready fan base, a mahoosive budget and the benefit of hindsight and laser sharp marketing of the last 40 years. Though the notion that some are suggesting that Finn is a token black role, Lando Calrissian was the Token Black role and no amount of "he was cool" can cover that up. Even as a kid I felt a bit odd about that. That and the fact that the original trilogy had feck all women at all in it. One in a main role and that was it.
Well crafted yes, but not necessarily as creative? Ehhh… Seriously? There is barely an original thought or scene in the script.
Sure if you want to throw out the hero's journey that's been around since god was a boy(hell, even Jesus follows it) in favour of another angle on it. Cool if you can pull it off, but I really don't think someone like Abrams has a tenth of the talent required to do so.
Welllll…. the first one was, the second one was a little bit of a blip and the third went back to the kids market. They were family/kids films by design from the outset. A cartoon Dune/Samurai flic for the family market and nothing wrong with that. Especially as it brought so many new elements into cinema. I don't wanna sound like an old fart here, but my god it was a massive revelation for this eleven year old back in the day. We'd quite simply not seen anything like it. Science fiction was mostly very creaky B&W Flash Gordon reruns of a Saturday morning(so we were used to seeing the opening vanishing point text thing and the wipe style edits), Star Trek which even then was dated and Doctor Who. I used wee myself when 2001 might show up as a Saturday matinee, but I was a weird fcuker. It's hard for people who've seen it latterly to appreciate just how much of a mind fcuk it was and how cool a universe we suddenly had to inhabit and play around in. Hell I even helped a mate of mine shoot his own fan film on super 8, I built new spaceships and model sets. I was the John Dykstra dude, mainly cos I had loads of Airfix kits.
The thing is those kids grew up and wanted more adult themes/their childhood back/comic book guy nerdgasms. The newer fans were likely near adults on their first encounter with that universe. Very hard market to please, hence Disney went with TFA the way it did. It's a very well surface crafted fanflic for the 21st century market.
True enough. It's very clear they know each other well enough.
IMH it's as much down to the sheer relief that it's not the prequels again and we have a "New Hope" again. Literally. Look how many folks are saying "OK, yes this may have issues, but wait'll you see the next two, it's setting them up to be brilliant". I'm quite sure they won't be nearly as disappointed as they were with the prequels, but will they be good stories? That's a wait and see vibe at the moment. I suspect some of the lower budget spinoffs will be where some decent stuff gets made, because it won't be as much under the Disney beady eye.
The difference between the two is quite literally the definition of chalk and cheese. I'm sometimes wondering if some haven't seen the first one or are going on memory? In the first one Luke blows up the Death Star in the nick of time and with help(some are bitching about the Rey "don't hold my hand" yet Luke is handheld nigh on throughout, inc Leia), that's about his lot. The rest of the time he's almost getting in the way. He's arguably one member in an ensemble cast of heroes, but becomes the main hero because of the big change from when we first see him(Leia is already kicking arse as a politician and rebel leader, Ben Kenobi is a retired warrior and Han and Chewie are... well Han and Chewie).
OK then what exactly were you expecting from this film? I'm not trying to pick a fight but I am very curious. You don't seem to be happy with any aspect of the film.
It is not a reboot, but elements from the very successful and well loved previous films are used. A tried and tested format, if you will.
So what exactly is the problem? Would you be happier if they had started off from scratch with a completely different story line? Personally I don't think that would have been possible. I don't think you can have a star wars universe with out a Skywalker.0
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