Star Wars: The Force Awakens [** SPOILERS FROM POST 4472 ONWARD **]

Tony EH

SarahBM wrote: »

As for the ones giving out about Rey being super good at using the Force, IMO its no quicker that Luke became super good at using the Force in ANH.

I really don't know how people can keep saying this. It's just flat out wrong. Luke doesn't display any proficiency with the Force until 'The Empire Strikes Back' and even then, he isn't all that good with it. It's not until 'Return of the Jedi' that he looks like he's achieved some real accomplishment with it.

I've literally just watched 'Star Wars' last week and there is simply no comparison between Luke and Rey.

SarahBM

This person has an interesting theory about Rey's parentage http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-ostrower/rey-is-obi-wan-kenobis-granddaughter_b_8911656.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Wibbs

SarahBM wrote: »

OK then what exactly were you expecting from this film? I'm not trying to pick a fight but I am very curious. You don't seem to be happy with any aspect of the film.
It is not a reboot, but elements from the very successful and well loved previous films are used. A tried and tested format, if you will.
So what exactly is the problem? Would you be happier if they had started off from scratch with a completely different story line? Personally I don't think that would have been possible. I don't think you can have a star wars universe with out a Skywalker.

It is a reboot, hell it's damn near a remake. What would I have liked? I dunno. Imagination. Something novel within the Star Wars universe. Yes, even a different story line. Not a cynical albeit polished near complete mining, spectacle by numbers of an old story made new for the current market.

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

Because Star Wars was a standalone film. Lucas has bullshítted so much, so many times over so many years about this, but he really saw it as a one off. Luke's da gets killed by Vader, he's no relation to Luke. Indeed for all his force skill he's seconds away from killing his own son at the Death Star. Leia is the fairy tale princess, but no shrinking violet is she and she was Luke's love interest. Not his sister. All that came later, even within the early writing of Empire. The huge success changed all that and so he dug deep into his massive back notes of the various original scripts and ran with it. Very pretty well to be fair. This was the man who gave us Howard the Duck after all, though in fairness much of Indiana Jones too.

This one of the biggest problems I have with Star Wars as a whole. It's a load of old bollocks dressed up as some great saga that was written before it was filmed. Lucas has spoofed so much on this that it's just absurd at this point and it's lead to so many retcons, retouches and backpeddling that it comes close to destroying any enjoyment that can be derived from the films.

I've always thought it simply would have been better for George to leave 'Star Wars' as Episode 1 and just simply carry on from there. There was no need to go back in time and try to adjust something into an already established universe. In fact, by doing so, he diminishes that universe by creating blatant anomalies and silly plot coincidences. Seriously, Ben Kenobi can't remember R2D2? Or that Luke's dad made C3P0?

For Fuck sake.

That kind of thing should be Day 1 stuff in "crap you shouldn't do in your film" class.

In saying, I still love George Lucas. He's the man that gave some of my most memorable cinema experiences. A wonderful ideas man, that I believe was corrupted by his own unexpected and phenomenally, spectacular, success.

Wibbs wrote: »

IMH it's as much down to the sheer relief that it's not the prequels again and we have a "New Hope" again. Literally. Look how many folks are saying "OK, yes this may have issues, but wait'll you see the next two, it's setting them up to be brilliant". I'm quite sure they won't be nearly as disappointed as they were with the prequels, but will they be good stories? That's a wait and see vibe at the moment. I suspect some of the lower budget spinoffs will be where some decent stuff gets made, because it won't be as much under the Disney beady eye.

I'm kind of in that camp myself. After being burned three times with the, frankly, appalling prequels (and yes, to everyone, they ARE appalling) and not being a fan of JJ Abrams (his Star Trek reboots really are terribly overrated), I went into 'The Force Awakens' with a blank slate. A hard to achieve blank slate, I can tell you and came out thinking it was ok. An above average actioner that did fine, even with some very obvious and unnecessary flaws. That said, it has set up the possibility for some truly great pictures, if those possibilities are realised. It came out OK. An acceptable entry in the series. On par with 'Return of the Jedi'.

I spose the best thing I've taken from 'The Force Awakens' is that we have proper Star Wars back and I'm looking forward to the next film, which in an era of largely duff movies (of this type) is something to be happy about.

johnny_ultimate

If George Lucas, for the most part, is a great ideas man, JJ Abrams is, for the most part, a great execution man.

Abrams has consistently delivered what he's good at. To qualify that, he is not the sort of director I admire the same way I admire the many dozens of great art house or experimental filmmakers working today, or even the handful of totally individual voices working within the mainstream space. What Abrams does, and he's uniquely great this, is taking established franchises or corporate mandated sequels that are suffering creative and/or commercial rot and delivers them a kick up the arse.

He doesn't reinvent the wheel. Honestly his take on said wheel is typically conservative and safe. But what he does boast is a unique and ever impressive visual fluency, full of energy and fetching cinematic flair (I'd be surprised if anybody would suggest otherwise - Abrams and Daniel Mindel are brilliant visual storytellers). He is a fantastic director of actors - his ensembles typically abound with life and chemistry. He makes broad stroke, hugely accessible films that typically suffer in logistics and plotting but usually generally succeed when it comes to the macro level character and narrative beats (which is fine by me - I tend to find plot the least interesting thing about cinema anyway, especially in something as innately generic and formulaic as Star Wars). His films have an infectious sense of fun, enthusiasm and adventure. His films feel like the sort of blockbusters I loved as a kid, and in some cases I only imagined as a kid, their sense of giddy enthusiasm infectious. He is a man who takes thankless jobs deadly seriously, and seems to have a blast doing it. All of this, as far as I'm concerned, is true of Mission Impossible 3, the two Star Trek films and now The Force Awakens.

I usually use 'workman' as a negative word when it comes to filmmakers, but in Abram's case I make an exception. What he has consistently lacked in original ideas he has consistently covered for with the confidence and artistry of his delivery. He is one of the few, perhaps the only, directors I respect in this way. I don't put him anywhere near the same level I put my favourite contemporary directors - your Shane Carruths, Wes Andersons, Don Hertzfeldts, Abbas Kiarostamis (please fill list with any number of directors from around the world). Even Rian Johnson I greatly admire on a significantly different sort of wavelength. What I do know is that every two or three years Abrams will deliver a big name, big budget blockbuster that is significantly more confident, cinematically accomplished and straight-up entertaining than pretty much any of their directly comparable peers (although I'd file Chris Nolan's work in a separate pile entirely). I never expect anything groundbreaking. I have no illusions about the limits of his skills. I always get something throughly entertaining.

Well, Super 8 was only ok.

Tony EH

I've said it before and I'll say it again...JJ Abrams is no savior of cinema, despite the current chutzpah that seems to follow him into every new project he touches. Looking back at his filmography, there is little to go mad about.

His Star Trek reboot is grossly (and quite wrongly) triumphed and much of his other material leaves an awful lot to be desired. So much so, that it's a wonder he is where he is at the moment. Probably the best thing he's done is 'Cloverfield'. Before 'The Force Awakens' anyway.

In a way, I'm happy that JJ has decided to take his hands off of the tiller for the next film, as even with Rian Johnson's limited output, he's directed two pictures which I would count as better than anything Abrams has been involved with. 'Brick' and 'Looper'.

To me Abrams is "Speilberg lite". He's shown on a couple of occasions that he can pull off the blockbuster, provided he can lace it with fan service and draw on an already established universe/franchise a la Star Trek and Star Wars. But other than that, I don't see much else.

And yes, 'Super 8' was OK. But we all know who he was trying to emulate.

Ceist_Beag

Wibbs wrote: »

It is a reboot, hell it's damn near a remake. What would I have liked? I dunno. Imagination. Something novel within the Star Wars universe. Yes, even a different story line. Not a cynical albeit polished near complete mining, spectacle by numbers of an old story made new for the current market.

Here's the thing Wibbs. I completely agree with you that TFA is (in some parts word for word) a remake of ANH but the thing is, for me anyway, I still really really enjoyed TFA. Part of me does wish it wasn't such a rip off of scenes and script from ANH but another part of me gets past that and enjoys the film on it's own.
Like you, I would have preferred a more subtle nod to ANH and something new in the story here but I can see why they went down this route and despite all of this I have to say it still brought me right back to my youth watching it for the first time and also seeing the look in my kids eyes after.
It's not an easy ask to follow on from a trilogy 30+ years later and whilst I'm far from a critic, I personally was quite satisfied overall with the first installment.

johnny_ultimate

Tony EH wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again...JJ Abrams is no savior of cinema,

Honestly Tony, I don't think anyone is suggesting for a second that he is. I know I'm certainly not! I've made the case for the (limited but nonetheless significant) terms on which I admire and enjoy his work, and there's not a whole lot more I can add other than stressing once again there's a couple dozen directors whose work I appreciate significantly more. Still, I'm an Abrams 'fan' as part of a wide-ranging cinematic diet

Liamo08

Tony EH wrote: »

I really don't know how people can keep saying this. It's just flat out wrong. Luke doesn't display any proficiency with the Force until 'The Empire Strikes Back' and even then, he isn't all that good with it. It's not until 'Return of the Jedi' that he looks like he's achieved some real accomplishment with it.

I've literally just watched 'Star Wars' last week and there is simply no comparison between Luke and Rey.

It's bizarre that people keep saying this when pretty early on in ANH he's blocking laser blasts blindfolded and then later on he blows up the Death Star using just the force to guide him.

Penn

Liamo08 wrote: »

It's bizarre that people keep saying this when pretty early on in ANH he's blocking laser blasts blindfolded and then later on he blows up the Death Star using just the force to guide him.

And when he's trapped by the yeti-thing on Hoth, he uses the Force to make his lightsaber come to him despite a) Obi-Wan never showing him how to do it, b) Yoda not training him to move things using the Force until afterwards, and c) never seeing anyone using the Force to move things (therefore not knowing you could move things using the Force).

Hell even Anakin used the Force to be a great podracer/pilot despite not knowing anything about the Force. Those with a strong connection to it can use it to a certain degree even with no or minimal training.

Mr Freeze

SarahBM wrote: »

This person has an interesting theory about Rey's parentage http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-ostrower/rey-is-obi-wan-kenobis-granddaughter_b_8911656.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Kind of hoped this would be Rey's true parentage myself after watching it.

He makes a lot of good points, but I think its too easy for the writers to just say she is a Skywalker.

RDM_83 again

The flipside to that is (and I agree with a lot of what you say, the characters were likeable etc) is that while his films and shows are entertaining they are effectively strip mining already develop concepts and leaving them in a poor place for follow up films. Look at whats happening to Star Trek, look what happened with lost.
I'd like to see what he could do if kept on a tight leash with less editorial control and different writers.

david75

I watched Avengers age of ultron last night for the first time.
I had enjoyed the previous films but if you want to look at repeating the same story and mining what's come before(directly before in this instance) just watch this film. It's the law of diminishing returns on a much grander scale. Thinking that throwing more of what worked before on the new film didn't work at all in this films case. It was tedious.

Force awakens isn't that at all. It uses a lot of the same frame work and then some small nods on top as dressing (Finn finding Lukes training ball from A new hope, turning on the chess board in the Falcon etc)
But other than that nothing too distracting or annoying. They needed to re establish the universe and make us feel like we were back in that universe. Feel being the important word. How do you do that? Look, sound, feel and relate through characters. We need Han and Chewie In there doing their little one twos at each other(and these are their best) we need to see Han and Leia and see where they're at after 30 years.

The entire point was to Bring all that back, Make us glad to see old friends and feel comfortable in order for that last shot with Luke to feel jarring and weighed with gravitas and importance.

It does that in spades. Something we all seem to forget is it's the story of the search for Luke. Everything else in it is just setting that up and setting up sideline story with Rey. They dropped the ball making clear the political landscape and what's going on and which faction is which exactly. But even that isn't a main story. the board is clear now and they've a blank slate.

This wont be the empire strikes back. It'll be dark but it'll be totally different than any Star Wars we've seen and won't use any of the tropes or templates we've seen before. I'm just hoping it's not too much of a lurch in a different direction. But we've gotta be open to it doing that too.

Wibbs

Liamo08 wrote: »

It's bizarre that people keep saying this when pretty early on in ANH he's blocking laser blasts blindfolded and then later on he blows up the Death Star using just the force to guide him.

Both with guidance from Kenobi(and he's not great at the first bit) and he only blew up the Death Star with help from ghost Ben and Han/Chewie taking out Vader just before he was about to shoot Luke down. Major skin of his teeth time. Luke over time became a hero, Rey just is straight out of the gate. Within apparently hours of learning that the force is a real thing, not a legend*, she's using it. The only character change she makes in the entire flic is that she decides not to go back to Tattooine her desert home. That's pretty much it(and Abrams labours the point).

Someone over on IMDB has rattled up a list of plot comparisons between TFA and the first SW. It's not complete either. And I'd put Maz as female Yoda II with nerd glasses.


*actually that bit jarred for me as well. How could a population simply forget one of the biggest things in their recent history? If there were a bunch of people with superpowers that have been battling it out for centuries, you'd hardly forget about all that in forty years.

david75

This is a great read about Lucas

On the other hand, it must be satisfying to see his gifts as a director, so long forgotten, be praised. “The Force Awakens” makes it once again possible to think about George Lucas as a man of imagination, of conviction, and (minus Jar Jar Binks) of taste—as a brilliant appropriator rather than an average one. It took a forgery to get him called an artist.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-george-awakens?mbid=social_facebook

Penn

Wibbs wrote: »

*actually that bit jarred for me as well. How could a population simply forget one of the biggest things in their recent history? If there were a bunch of people with superpowers that have been battling it out for centuries, you'd hardly forget about all that in forty years.

What about the first Star Wars, where Darth Vader chokes the guy on the Death Star for not believing in the Force?

The Sith were gone/hiding for hundreds if not thousands of years until the prequels, and even then they operated in the shadows. The Jedi Council may have stepped in occasionally when needed to keep peace, but ultimately they would barely have needed to display their powers in any great sense (again, until the prequels).

Then after the prequels, Palpatine was the Emperor and the last remaining Jedi were in hiding. Given the number of systems, planets etc, I don't think it's surprising at all that most think the Jedi/Sith either never existed or were made up. Let's face it, who actually ended the Empire? Han/Leia + soldiers took out the shields of the Death Star, and Lando + rebel pilots took out the Death Star itself, which the Emperor & Vader were on. To the outside world(s), the involvement of any Jedi/Sith was inconsequential, as most wouldn't have known about Luke even being there. That's why the Force & Jedis are still treated as being legend by most.

PIORUN

I watched it again, in 3D this time, on Saturday...I preferred the 2D version on IMAX. Finn really annoyed me this time though, he was like the guy who tries to be funny with everything he says and has no filter. Rey bringing the lightsaber to her was brilliant again...up there with one of the best moments in the franchise.

eviltimeban

david75 wrote: »

The entire point was to Bring all that back, Make us glad to see old friends and feel comfortable in order for that last shot with Luke to feel jarring and weighed with gravitas and importance.

I felt it nearly had the opposite effect - like when you think your parents are young, or you spend a bit of time looking at old photos or videos of them, then you see them and realise they aren't really the same people any more (this is for those of us who can remember their parents 30 years younger).

I felt the same with TFA - especially with Leia. She didn't seem like the same person at all. Han just about, but he was old, creaky, couldn't run fast and had a crack in his voice. I'd rather remember Han as young and fast talking and running around with a blaster.

Luke we don't know about yet but I have a feeling I may like an older Luke - he was always a bit too "boyish", at least in the first two movies, so age might suit him. Plus most cinema viewers won't have seen Mark Hamill in *anything* since ROTJ - Harrison Ford we've obviously seen in Indiana Jones, plus stuff like Blade Runner, Working Girl, The Fugitive, the Jack Ryan movies. So we've seen him age. To paraphrase Ben Kenobi, he's more Harrison Ford than Han Solo now, whereas Hamill might always be Luke... if you know what I mean.

More focus on Ren, Rey, Poe and Finn in the next episodes. That'll bring it forward.

Rogue One will also be interesting as it'll be all new characters, but in a previous time frame (pre A New Hope).

e_e

david75 wrote: »

Force awakens isn't that at all. It uses a lot of the same frame work and then some small nods on top as dressing (Finn finding Lukes training ball from A new hope, turning on the chess board in the Falcon etc)
But other than that nothing too distracting or annoying. They needed to re establish the universe and make us feel like we were back in that universe. Feel being the important word. How do you do that? Look, sound, feel and relate through characters. We need Han and Chewie In there doing their little one twos at each other(and these are their best) we need to see Han and Leia and see where they're at after 30 years.

Also it's intrinsically linked to the series' themes of legend and legacy. Like the original trilogy the film's triumphs and failures come out of characters looking to the past and learning from their ancestors and predecessors. I'd argue that if JJ Abrams went the other way it would have just felt more like a hard reboot, too disconnected from the series' roots.

quad_red

I don't know has this been asked before but do Disney now hold the rights to all the Star Wars films?

Like, could we see official Despecialised versions released? (ie. Han shoots first etc.)

Penn

quad_red wrote: »

I don't know has this been asked before but do Disney now hold the rights to all the Star Wars films?

Like, could we see official Despecialised versions released? (ie. Han shoots first etc.)

Yes and I think they do have plans to release the completely unaltered original versions of the films.

wally79

Penn wrote: »

Yes and I think they do have plans to release the completely unaltered original versions of the films.

Great because I watched the ones with the added CGI last week and the CGI has dated more than the original filmwork. Looks terrible and adds zilch

McLoughlin

quad_red wrote: »

I don't know has this been asked before but do Disney now hold the rights to all the Star Wars films?

Like, could we see official Despecialised versions released? (ie. Han shoots first etc.)

Maybe after 2020 when the rights have changed

eviltimeban

quad_red wrote: »

I don't know has this been asked before but do Disney now hold the rights to all the Star Wars films?

Like, could we see official Despecialised versions released? (ie. Han shoots first etc.)

Already have them - the DVDs I have come with a second disc with the original theatrical versions. They're the only ones I watch.

Mr Freeze

eviltimeban wrote: »

Already have them - the DVDs I have come with a second disc with the original theatrical versions. They're the only ones I watch.

What DVD Set contains those?

Theboinkmaster

Mr Freeze wrote: »

What DVD Set contains those?

Yeah but not the remastered print.

We need the blu ray versions, but minus all the special edition "enhancements".

eviltimeban

Mr Freeze wrote: »

What DVD Set contains those?

Can't remember exactly which - it was a double disc set for each of Ep 1 - VI that I got a few years ago. One disc was the up to date, f**ked around with special editions, and the other was the original theatrical release (in the case of IV - VI).

homerun_homer

The DVDs containing the special and old versions of the film were only out for a limited time and the original versions were non anamorphic, which made watching it on a nice, big widescreen TV poxy.

I'd love to see the originals in high def DVD but also, a version halfway between them and the Special editions. By that I mean enhancing what is already there, not adding in stupid things and extra bits. I do like some of the upgraded effects of those editions like the Millenium Falcon and the X-Wings going to attack the Death Star. Lucas can keep the added flying robots, CG animals, the added tongue in the Sarlac pit, the song in Jabba's palace, Anakin's ghost... the list goes on.

johnny_ultimate

Yeah those DVDs were a cruel compromise, borderline breadcrumbs for anyone who wanted the original cuts. It was a half assed effort, and while better than nothing could still generously be described as a mixed blessing. That a hobbyist can put together vastly superior versions in solid higher definition quality, even without access to the source material, is a damning indictment of just how much of an afterthought and cheeky money grab those 'original cut' DVDs were.

As for the special editions themselves, #neverforget

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiDRgDmXGi4

Sad Professor

The 40th anniversary of Star Wars in 2017 would be a logical time to release a restored theatrical cut of the film. But a proper a restoration takes time. They’d have to be working on it already, especially if they want to release restored versions of Empire and Jedi at the same time.

I’m skeptical. Given the work and expense involved in such a restoration at a time when LucasFilm is in the middle of producing multiple new films, I’m not convinced that this is a high priority for Disney right now.

Lucas himself almost certainly had a long-term strategy for this, so I’m sure we’ll get them eventually. But they may choose to wait until 2022 or 2027 when they can elbow Fox out of the equation.