Star Wars: The Force Awakens [** SPOILERS FROM POST 4472 ONWARD **]

Zubeneschamali

Tony EH wrote: »

Part of the reason why I cannot stand the prequels is that it focuses far too much those boring feckers.

They're soooooo tedious.

Part of the reason I can't stand the prequels is that it makes the Jedi out to be boring dopey feckers.

But who cares? Lucas is out, and the Jedi can be cool.

Tony EH

Kiith wrote: »

As for Tarkin, i'm pretty sure he's dead. Even the craziness of the expanded universe couldn't bring him back.

Yeh, no chance.

"You may fire when ready..."

"Standing by..."

BANG!

Radiosonde

Tony EH wrote: »

Star Wars is at its best when the Jedi are a sideline and not the main issue.

Part of the reason why I cannot stand the prequels is that it focuses far too much those boring feckers.

They're soooooo tedious.

But the whole OT was about becoming a Jedi? There were only actually 2 Jedi in it - Obi Wan and Yoda - and they're both fondly remembered characters. The Jedi were only portrayed as boring sexless freaks in the prequels (in which every character was boring). Don't see how anyone can like Star Wars and not like Jedi (prequels excepted)

Tony EH

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But who cares? Lucas is out, and the Jedi can be cool.

They're not though, this is the problem.

Lucas' childish universe calls for the Jedi to be either one way or the other. There's no middle ground.

It would be fantastic if you had some Jedi that were a bit of a bollocks, but still sort of on the "good" side. Or even have a "good" side with some tarnish to it.

There should be a "gray" side.

Tony EH

Radiosonde wrote: »

But the whole OT was about becoming a Jedi? There were only actually 2 Jedi in it - Obi Wan and Yoda - and they're both fondly remembered characters. The Jedi were only portrayed as boring sexless freaks in the prequels (in which every character was boring). Don't see how anyone can like Star Wars and not like Jedi (prequels excepted)

That's only Luke's story.

The whole OT was about a galaxy wide struggle between opposing political entities as far as I was concerned.

Zubeneschamali

Tony EH wrote: »

There should be a "gray" side.

Obiwan lied to Luke from the off (Darth Vader killed your father). He hid the fact that Leia was his sister. He and Yoda told Luke that he would turn to the dark side, and they were both wrong. They thought Vader was irredeemable and must be killed, and they were both wrong.

They wanted Luke to let Leia and Solo die, and said that they couldn't help Luke if he chose to face Vader.

Some "Light" side.

Sad Professor

Radiosonde wrote: »

On another note, some talk as if Michael Arndt was still a co-writer on this? His script was probably largely binned, if not entirely.

Unlikely. He worked on the script for over a year. Abrams and Kasdan have only had 6 or 7 months. I’m sure they took things in a different direction without necessarily abandoning what Arndt did.

I think the Arndt business was greatly overblown. He handed in the first draft which Abrams decided he wanted to re-write with Kasdan. Disney hired Arndt and it's not usual for directors to bring in their own writers. And who would pass up the opportunity to get Kasdan back working on a Star Wars film?

pixelburp

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Part of the reason I can't stand the prequels is that it makes the Jedi out to be boring dopey feckers.

But who cares? Lucas is out, and the Jedi can be cool.

Have they ever been cool though? The prequels are still canon, thus solidifying the notion of the Jedi as emotionless drones and condescending monks-in-space. Maybe if Luke Skywalker's building a new grouping of Jedi they'll move the mythology away from that template - I sincerely hope so.

My irritation is broader though; I think Star Wars works best as the old-fashioned adventure story, of (relatively) lo-tech scrapes on the very fringes of civilisation. Instead, because the Jedi have made such a cultural impact, the Star Wars franchise became this vehicle for lightsaber-wielding mystical superhumans. The prequels had this, but if you look at other media it's the same deal: The Clones Wars TV show, numerous video games, etc.; it seems like a classic case of giving people what they think they wanted - more of the cool lightsaber-wooshing - while removing most of the mystery around them.

Star Wars can tell some really compelling, rough-edged stories if it just stops obsessing about the Jedi.

Zubeneschamali

pixelburp wrote: »

The prequels are still canon, thus solidifying the notion of the Jedi as emotionless drones and condescending monks-in-space.

But even if we take the prequels a face value, what do they tell us? Yoda had no clue. Everyones advice to the young Skywalker was terrible. The Jedi Council were wrong about everything, and it got them all killed. Why would Luke want to repeat their errors?

Yoda and Obiwan tried to pass that emotionless automaton stuff on to Luke in the OT, and again, it was all wrong, and doing things their way they would have lost. Luke ignored them, embraced his emotional feelings and won.

Zubeneschamali

pixelburp wrote: »

the Star Wars franchise became this vehicle for lightsaber-wielding mystical superhumans.

Yes, in 1977, in a movie called Star Wars which totally ruined the franchise.

Goodshape

Adamantium wrote: »

Also for as for "The sausage fest", Why are there so many women in... I don't know... something like legally blonde? The cast is ridiculously lopsided. Couldn't they give us 1-2 more men protagonists? They only threw in men in there to be the love interests. So disappointing.

See how ridiculous that sounds?

You're comparing an epic era-defining film franchise about good and evil, defenders of right vs the forces of darkness on an inter-galactic stage, a sweeping story where – really – gender should be no issue yet some 90% of the cast are male, with....

Legally Blonde. A 90-ish minute comedy film that gets it's entire premise from "blonde girls are dumb" jokes, and still manages a fairly even split of the genders in it's principal cast. Indeed, the entire motivation for the main character to go to law school in the first place is "to win back her ex-boyfriend".

But hey, why should smelly girls expect a part in our precious science fiction?! They should be happy with their chick flicks about getting a boyfriend back!


I do see how ridiculous that sounds, yeah. I think you might have missed it though.

pixelburp

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, in 1977, in a movie called Star Wars which totally ruined the franchise.

Wasn't really the point I was making? A New Hope was an intentional homage to adventure films of the past, ostensibly a lo-fi western in space, and 'The Force' was just a background entity, a little texture and mysticism on the side of the universe. Obi-wan was really just a sage. Leaving aside the abysmal execution of the prequels, the Jedi as an entity was a classic case of an unknown losing its power and value first by their explanation, then by excessive and persistent use, and not just in the movies. Look at the franchise as it existed around or after the prequels and the Jedis & lightsabers suddenly became the focus.

Anyway, it's conjecture until we know what form Episode VII will take. Personally, I would like that old-school, lo-tech approach the original trilogy took, where the Jedi were an almost mythical group floating about in the background, rather than the omg-lightsabers-everywhere overkill that happened in latter years.

Radiosonde

Goodshape wrote: »

But hey, who should smelly girls expect a part in our precious science fiction?! They should be happy with their chick flicks about getting a boyfriend back!

In fairness the OT gave us a fairly strong female character* despite the gender imbalance. If Carrie Fisher plays a major part in this film, that will more than most blockbusters give to older women - not that that makes up for the imbalance.

*Except when she got kidnapped and rescued by the hero, then made out with her brother, then got kidnapped and chained up and forced to wear a gold bikini, and then got rescued by the hero again...

Radiosonde

pixelburp wrote: »

A New Hope was an intentional homage to adventure films of the past, ostensibly a lo-fi western in space, and 'The Force' was just a background entity, a little texture and mysticism on the side of the universe.

No it wasn't. It was central to the resolution of the whole movie.

Zubeneschamali

pixelburp wrote: »

A New Hope was an intentional homage to adventure films of the past, ostensibly a lo-fi western in space, and 'The Force' was just a background entity, a little texture and mysticism on the side of the universe.

First of all, it wasn't called A New Hope, it was called Star Wars.

Secondly, it most emphatically was not a western in space: that was Star Trek, which Roddenberry pitched as "Wagon Train to the Stars".

Star Wars was a Samurai movie in space, and Luke's journey from farm boy to Jedi is absolutely central.

Goodshape

Radiosonde wrote: »

No it wasn't. It was central to the resolution of the whole movie.

Was it, in the first film? Luke used the force to aim his torpedo instead of the guidance computer. Not sure it was really "central to the resolution" of anything.

Theboinkmaster

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

First of all, it wasn't called A New Hope, it was called Star Wars.

That's a bit pendantic isn't it - different titles, same film :P

Goodshape

Radiosonde wrote: »

In fairness the OT gave us a fairly strong female character* despite the gender imbalance.

Yeah. Still a massive and uncalled for gender imbalance but the (sole) female they did have was portrayed well at least. Even if she was literally written as a princess in need of rescue. I wonder is it Carrie Fisher we have to thank for turning that around.

pixelburp

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

First of all, it wasn't called A New Hope, it was called Star Wars.

Oh ffs, does that even matter? No, it wasn't A New Hope in 1977, I know this, the pedantry isn't necessary. Shall we just refer to it as Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope for completeness? :rolleyes:

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Secondly, it most emphatically was not a western in space: that was Star Trek, which Roddenberry pitched as "Wagon Train to the Stars".

Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope was absolutely a western in space, maybe not exclusively, but certainly in the sense its aesthetic and setting was drawn from the notion of a Frontier on the edge of known space. Tatoinne's dessert and Mos Eisley were hardly subtle nods to the remote, harsh living typified by times like those of the Wild West. Even in Empire Strikes Back that theme of remote, unforgiving locations was continued with Hoth, Degobah & Cloud City respectively.

Radiosonde wrote: »

No it wasn't. It was central to the resolution of the whole movie.

Jedi was a myth, a relic from the past. Han Solo made that clear earlier in the film with his jibes; Yes Luke trusted The Force etc. for the briefest of moments. As a concept it was on a similar level to magic in the world of Games of Thrones, a peripheral and intangible concept that only a chosen, powerful few can wield, while the rest deny its existence.

Anyway, arguably it was Han that saved the day considering Luke was about to be blown out of the sky by Vader's TIE fighter...

Zubeneschamali

pixelburp wrote: »

Jedi was a myth, a relic from the past.

It was believed to be a myth, until Vader grabbed the unbeliever by the throat...

Solo didn't believe it, and he was wrong. He admitted it, with his "May the force be with you" line.

pixelburp

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It was believed to be a myth, until Vader grabbed the unbeliever by the throat...

Solo didn't believe it, and he was wrong. He admitted it, with his "May the force be with you" line.

Again, not the point I'm making. Not denying the Force wasn't there, just that it was a concept that milled about in the background with a bit more subtly and mystery than how it eventually evolved thanks to the prequels and whatnot. It was a myth insofar as it was irrelevant to the greater universe. A New Hope wasn’t exclusively about The Force, it was still just a fun outback adventure film with a bit of magic for mystery. Certainly not the force-lightning, dual-lightsaber, ballet-school, everyone’s-a-Jedi smorgasbord the franchise became.

Mr Freeze

Those videos of Lucas during the making of the prequels are painful to watch.

Why didn't someone smack him or shake him, and tell him what he was making was absolute muck?

I mean like way earlier than a screening of the film.

Zubeneschamali

pixelburp wrote: »

it was a concept that milled about in the background with a bit more subtly and mystery than how it eventually evolved thanks to the prequels and whatnot.

No argument there, the prequels, midichlorians, virgin births, balance to the force - all a load of old cobblers.

But Star Wars without light sabers is not Star Wars - it'd be like a Samurai movie with no sword fights. I know there's a proposal for a TV show during the Emperor's rule, when there were no Jedi, and only the Emperor and Vader behind the scenes using the force, but I think that's a terrible idea.

Radiosonde

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Those videos of Lucas during the making of the prequels are painful to watch.

Why didn't someone smack him or shake him, and tell him what he was making was absolute muck?

I mean like way earlier than a screening of the film.

His company, and they all worked for him. Not much they could do without risking being fired! Rick McCallum or one of those top people probably could, but at the same time they probably got were they were by not questioning George's judgement too much.

Radiosonde

Goodshape wrote: »

Was it, in the first film? Luke used the force to aim his torpedo instead of the guidance computer. Not sure it was really "central to the resolution" of anything.

Well, Luke's character arc involved him learning to embrace the Jedi way and master the force. He finally destroys the Death Star by putting his trust in it, thus completing his journey (for that film anyhow).

krudler

pixelburp wrote: »

Have they ever been cool though? The prequels are still canon, thus solidifying the notion of the Jedi as emotionless drones and condescending monks-in-space. Maybe if Luke Skywalker's building a new grouping of Jedi they'll move the mythology away from that template - I sincerely hope so.

My irritation is broader though; I think Star Wars works best as the old-fashioned adventure story, of (relatively) lo-tech scrapes on the very fringes of civilisation. Instead, because the Jedi have made such a cultural impact, the Star Wars franchise became this vehicle for lightsaber-wielding mystical superhumans. The prequels had this, but if you look at other media it's the same deal: The Clones Wars TV show, numerous video games, etc.; it seems like a classic case of giving people what they think they wanted - more of the cool lightsaber-wooshing - while removing most of the mystery around them.

Star Wars can tell some really compelling, rough-edged stories if it just stops obsessing about the Jedi.

One of the prequels biggest sins was reducing the so called protectors of the galaxy to a bunch of idiots who sit around waiting for stuff to happen, and don't realise a Sith lord is slowly gaining power in front of them.

norrie rugger

Goodshape wrote: »

You're comparing an epic era-defining film franchise about good and evil, defenders of right vs the forces of darkness on an inter-galactic stage, a sweeping story where – really – gender should be no issue yet some 90% of the cast are male, with....

Legally Blonde. A 90-ish minute comedy film that gets it's entire premise from "blonde girls are dumb" jokes, and still manages a fairly even split of the genders in it's principal cast. Indeed, the entire motivation for the main character to go to law school in the first place is "to win back her ex-boyfriend".

But hey, why should smelly girls expect a part in our precious science fiction?! They should be happy with their chick flicks about getting a boyfriend back!


I do see how ridiculous that sounds, yeah. I think you might have missed it though.

What is going to come first though, studios taking risks on a female audience (potentially, if done incorrectly alienating the geeky teenage male core group) or girls actually showing that they like Sci-Fi and go to the shows (in large numbers)

Adamantium

norrie rugger wrote: »

or girls actually showing that they like Sci-Fi and go to the shows (in large numbers)

If they want to be interested in sci-fi " THEN BE INTERESTED IN THE CONTENT", or piss off, because they likely never cared in the first place.

What's funny is women will go see this, and like it I'm sure (just like the FAST AND FURIOUS FRANCHISE). If a large group of people aren't complaining, then is it even really a problem?
The studios give US want they want at the end of the day

I still find it hard to believe how people want more "equality" in this stuff, the that's lead to the dilution/homogenisation of movies everywhere. "Have a mixing pot to create one global race" Such a weird idea to me. It's so much more interesting to have different genres, showing different stories, being their own entity. and still interacting.

They'll be editing alien heads on the Empire admirals to make them less xenophobic in the original movies next, because in hindsight, how can we know what a government in a foreign galaxy wouldn't have equal representation?

We don't. THAT'S WHY WE MADE IT UP. IT'S A STORY

I go to movies to see Joesph Campbell A Heros' Journey, that's universal to all humans, sexless. raceless, not Gender equality 101.

Fight Club, Stand by me are great movies featuring almost all male casts.

If they were interested they would be interested.

johnny_ultimate

Adamantium wrote: »

I still find it hard to believe how people want more "equality" in this stuff, the that's lead to the dilution/homogenisation of movies everywhere.

Funny you should say that, because Hollywood movies are actually incredibly homogenised at the moment. Here's a pair of interesting facts from 2013:

Women accounted for less than a third of all speaking roles in the year’s 100 top-grossing domestic films. And just 15 percent of those films had women in leading roles.

Surely you see there's something a little askew there, and why there's cause for a little bit of disappointment that Star Wars VII is actually conforming to the status quo statistically speaking. No sensible person would disagree "it's so much more interesting to have different genres, showing different stories", but I'd suggest mainstream American cinema isn't even close to achieving that yet given that an entire half of the population is so massively underrepresented. Worse, maybe, it actually makes a whole load of films actively boring, with their cookie cutter male action heroes. Is it a problem if only a small minority are complaining? Honestly, I think the bigger problem is that more people aren't complaining, which suggests a worrying acceptance of this imbalance. Pointing out random individual films does not address a deep and industry-wide issue.

I think this is a great opportunity for a major franchise to start with a blank slate. And Star Wars, despite Leia and Padme both being reduced to damsels in distress / love interests fairly regularly, actually has quite a diverse cast of supporting and background characters. You have female jedis, female pilots, female politicians and so on - frankly, gender equality actually seems like something of a given in the Star Wars universe, which is wonderful, and negates the need for explicit 'gender commentary' - it simply shouldn't be an issue. I for one would like see that pushed to the fore a little more - not out of some random demand for equality, but rather to see the formula mixed up a bit and a more diverse and varied group of lead characters. That's dramatically potent, it's adventurous and more accessible for all. And writing female characters isn't some insurmountable difficulty for male writers, unless they conform to an outdated 'men are from Tatooine, women are from Endor' mentality - a huge amount of motivations and traits could be easily switched between male and female characters with nothing more than a name change.

The really liberal and sadly unrealistic part of me would actually love to see franchises like Star Wars actually feature, say, gay characters in major roles, which I think would be an incredible admirable thing for a major blockbuster to do. But hell if we're still stuck with a boy's club mentality, those radical changes seem like an even more distant goal than ever. There's still a year and a half to go until Episode VII, and I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

snausages

Hah, there's an ad for the Old Republic in the bottom corner for me at the moment and it just reminds me of that time they set up a gay planet (ghetto) for the MMO they made. I'd hope that any attempt made at including gay characters in Star Wars is handled more tactfully by Abrams and Disney. Personally though I'd worry they'd just shoehorn it in and make it a defining aspect of the character, sort of like how Bioware do whenever there's a gay character in their games. That's not progressive, it's ham-fisted.