Star Wars: The Force Awakens [** SPOILERS FROM POST 4472 ONWARD **]

Tony EH

Thanks. Now it's fücked for the rest of us.

Mr Freeze

Wedwood wrote: »

Getting back to Episode 7, I've tried to avoid spoilers,

but couldn't help watching the concept art of what appears to be a villain holding Vader's burnt helmet.

Have to see this image!

I'd be very surprised if they did anything with Vader.

I'm expected completely new Sith Lords.

Brian Shanahan

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The Abrams Trek reboots though are just noisy generic sci-fi action flicks with the Trek name tagged on. FFS the engine room looks like a factory, Scotty is a joke, and they have a bloody Ewok in it (which if rumours are to be believed will be given more screen time as they try and turn the franchise into a GotG rip-off)

Disclaimer: I've only seen 2009, I didn't watch Into ****ness because, well, 2009 broke the franchise on its own.

The Abrams engine rooms are actually a whisky distillery, with absolutely nothing done to disguise the fact. Of all the characters cast the only one came actually close to portraying the actual character, Karl Urban as Bones. He was the only one that actually looked like he studied the character he was playing and worked with it. Pine as Kirk was a whiny spoilt brat, who never got near to deserving anything other than being blown out the nearest airlock on the first convenient opportunity. He most definitely wasn't Kirk as we grew up to know and love, the decisive and bold leader who proved himself over many years to deserve the respect he was shown. Zachary Quinto was playing a Spock who was channelling T'Pol and his outburst of emotion would have been far more in character if he'd just huffed some Trellium-D rather than what it came up as (as a Vulcan trained half-Vulcan whose goal was to be the perfectly logical Vulcan, young Spock ideally would have bottled up his emotions). Zoe Saldanha was hired because she looked good in a bikini, she can't act. That is a disgrace to the character of Uhura who in ToS and the films was a well rounded and highly capable officer. The less said about Sarek the better, though nobody would have done justice to Lenard's portrayal of him. Scotty was played as the comic relief, look how well that went in V:The Search for Bill's Ego. And so on and so forth (I'm not talking about Sulu nor nor Chekov, because like in 5 and 7 they had nothing to do apart from a few minor things). Now, granted apart from Saldahna most of the character problems were down to ****ty writing and not ****ty actors.

And then we come to the script which had two modes, 1) Kirk acting like an idiot because it was KEWL! and 2) contextless use of one liners from ToS to lull the Trekkie patrons into a false sense that this was a good movie through use of nostalgia (I actually fell for that, watched the film three days after its Irish release and for a week went around with this feeling that I'd seen a good film, only for something nagging me in the back of my head, til I woke one morning and exclaimed "It was nothing but one liners!"). There was no substance to the script, no character growth, hell no character full stop. The crisis was stupid in so many ways and its presentation was worse than Shinzon's dithering in Nemesis.

Brian Shanahan

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm also of that different generation, I watched Star wars as a kid sure, but they had been out for the guts of 15-20 years already. If you were a teen when they first came out, or even a kid, you were a fully fledged adult when the new ones came out so I cuold imagine the disappointment.

You've got to remember about the original films that Lucas has signficantly altered them over the years, especially the special effects, and almost all the changes (those not incidental to the story) are harmful to the series (Han shot Greedo first after all, a major character development point, but the remastered versions changed that scene to pretend that Greedo shot first). So the films you saw were probably significantly different than the original releases, and in all honesty probably worse for it.

J Mysterio

I remember my brother ran out and bought the original trilogy on VHS for a significant outlay (at the time) before they were replaced by the remastered versions.

Cool to have now.

Mr Freeze

J Mysterio wrote: »

Cool to have now.

Except for you don't have the extra Banthas or the Jedi Rocks musical scene in ROTJ. Pity, you are missing out. :pac:

TheDoc

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

You've got to remember about the original films that Lucas has signficantly altered them over the years, especially the special effects, and almost all the changes (those not incidental to the story) are harmful to the series (Han shot Greedo first after all, a major character development point, but the remastered versions changed that scene to pretend that Greedo shot first). So the films you saw were probably significantly different than the original releases, and in all honesty probably worse for it.

I caught the originals before the remastered's. Still have them on tape in the attic somewhere :O

Nerdlingr

Wedwood wrote: »

Getting back to Episode 7, I've tried to avoid spoilers, but couldn't help watching the concept art

of what appears to be a villain holding Vader's burnt helmet

Makes me wonder if part of this movie going to about resurrecting Darth Vader, or some new villain 'hero-worshipping' Sith folklore. Personally, I hope it's some version of the latter, otherwise it'll cheapen the ending of Return of the Jedi.

Edit: it'll cheapen the original ending of ROTJ sans NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.......... !

!

Couldnt you have spoilered some of your post?

Falthyron

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but another possible massive leak or completely made up for a laugh.

Seems like a mix of the other rumours and leaks, but still, it does sound very intriguing if true. I particularly like the stuff about Luke.

http://makingstarwars.net/2015/02/star-wars-force-awakens-psa-rumor-dump-take-leave/

Iranoutofideas

The "spoliers" above are discarded concept art. And they are hardly spoilers anyway.

philstar

anyone know when the next trailer is due?

Iranoutofideas

philstar wrote: »

anyone know when the next trailer is due?

Attached to Age of Ultron most likely

syklops

Really dont like seeing the "Bad Robot" logo at the start of the trailers.

Theboinkmaster

syklops wrote: »

Really dont like seeing the "Bad Robot" logo at the start of the trailers.

if that's all we'll have to complain about we'll be doing very well.

faceman

If that rumoured plot is true, then it really seems to me that the more Star Wars movies we get, the more the Jedi are portrayed as incompetent fools. Really takes away the mystique.

Thargor

The way they were massacred in the prequels already cemented that, Jedi Masters getting cut down by the score by battle droids and clones, such lazy films.

Gbear

Thargor wrote: »

The way they were massacred in the prequels already cemented that, Jedi Masters getting cut down by the score by battle droids and clones, such lazy films.

The thing in Geonosis was the worst.

It's fine if they get shot in the back during Order 66 - can't do much about that if Sidious is buggering up your pre-cognition.

But seeing random goons taking down Jedi by just shooting at them was disappointing. They really didn't make it appear like the Jedi were facing insurmountable odds until they just randomly started dying for no reason.

It'll be interesting to see which direction they go in these films.
By turns the prequels made the Jedi demi-gods or utter numpties. It's been much the same in the EU stuff or the games. Jedi have become so powerful that usually the writers can't write their way out of it so Darth Maul has to decide to stop fighting so Obi-Wan can kill him, Anakin has to randomly get chopped to bits because he doesn't have the high ground (despite that never being mentioned before) and so on.

The orginal trilogy made them pretty mundane by comparison - deflecting blaster bolts was a big deal, as was Vader throwing stuff at Luke.
The acrobatics weren't on the same level either and Yoda picking up the X Wing was mind-blowing.
But they wern't as prone to inexplicably losing all their talent in service to the plot either.

Luke beating Vader in the way he did makes sense if Vader has the abilities he shows in the original films. It doesn't make sense if he can bounce off the walls or throw Luke around like a rag doll.

With the age Hamill is, I'm hoping he's a bit more like Alec Guinness (although that fight scene with Vader really doesn't hold up) and less back flippy.

Adamantium

Gbear wrote: »

The thing in Geonosis was the worst.

It's fine if they get shot in the back during Order 66 - can't do much about that if Sidious is buggering up your pre-cognition.

But seeing random goons taking down Jedi by just shooting at them was disappointing. They really didn't make it appear like the Jedi were facing insurmountable odds until they just randomly started dying for no reason.

It'll be interesting to see which direction they go in these films.
By turns the prequels made the Jedi demi-gods or utter numpties. It's been much the same in the EU stuff or the games. Jedi have become so powerful that usually the writers can't write their way out of it so Darth Maul has to decide to stop fighting so Obi-Wan can kill him, Anakin has to randomly get chopped to bits because he doesn't have the high ground (despite that never being mentioned before) and so on.

The orginal trilogy made them pretty mundane by comparison - deflecting blaster bolts was a big deal, as was Vader throwing stuff at Luke.
The acrobatics weren't on the same level either and Yoda picking up the X Wing was mind-blowing.
But they wern't as prone to inexplicably losing all their talent in service to the plot either.

Luke beating Vader in the way he did makes sense if Vader has the abilities he shows in the original films. It doesn't make sense if he can bounce off the walls or throw Luke around like a rag doll.

With the age Hamill is, I'm hoping he's a bit more like Alec Guinness (although that fight scene with Vader really doesn't hold up) and less back flippy.

The moment they starting adding definitive ranks and turned it into a military unit, and not a Karate Kid meditative retreat in the mountains was a problem

Not to mention the prequels again, but the thing that buggers me about that it doesn't feel like a different story, it feels like its in another universe entirely. And weakens the originals, it opens holes in the originals that were never made to be seen

Dozens of Jedi Temple trained children can get slaughtered by Anakin Skywalker during Order 66 and yet a 20 something Luke Skywalker with next to no Jedi Training relatively has a fighting chance against his father? C'mon.

And no I don't buy the whole Anakin was weaker after his injury and not nearly as powerful malarkey, it makes Luke bad in retrospect and not nearly as inspirational.

Gbear

Adamantium wrote: »

The moment they starting adding definitive ranks and turned it into a military unit, and not a Karate Kid meditative retreat in the mountains was a problem

Not to mention the prequels again, but the thing that buggers me about that it doesn't feel like a different story, it feels like its in another universe entirely. And weakens the originals, it opens holes in the originals that were never made to be seen

Dozens of Jedi Temple trained children can get slaughtered by Anakin Skywalker during Order 66 and yet a 20 something Luke Skywalker with next to no Jedi Training relatively has a fighting chance against his father? C'mon.

And no I don't buy the whole Anakin was weaker after his injury and not nearly as powerful malarkey, it makes Luke bad in retrospect and not nearly as inspirational.

I think the whole paramilitary angle is one that was poorly dealt with in the films but they did start to approach it a bit more sensibly in The Clone Wars. Some of the last episodes that were aired did this really well (but I won't spoil them!).

I don't think it's bad that they did it - I think it's bad that they did it without properly showing what turning a group of peace-keepers and magic school teachers into an army would do the Jedi order (other than just making them all die because they were stabbed in the back).

I don't really have that huge a problem with the the sort of "lost ancient knowledge" angle - it's believable that the standard of Force users would be higher in a society where they're rigorously trained.

Luke could just be a prodigy and have power well beyond what has been drilled into him by Yoda - his training could be seen as controlling his gifts rather than fastidiously training. It does make his feats seem a bit less impressive in the movies (given that any gob****e could use telekinesis in the prequels) but I don't think it necessarily means Luke shouldn't have been able to beat him.

Part of it is that we know Vader is holding back because both he and the Emperor are trying to turn him - the Emperor wants him to replace Vader and Vader wants to usurp the Emperor as the Emperor did to his own master.
Also, it could be argued (although not directly from anything in the film) that Vader held back because he just didn't want to kill his son.
And getting chopped to bits and burnt to a crisp has to have an effect on Vader as well. It means Luke can beat him in a lightsaber duel because if he's not willing to just choke him to death because he's not trying to kill him it gives Luke the edge.

I don't think anything really broke what happened in the originals. I do however some events lacked sufficient context (like the fall of Jedi Order, not in terms of everyone dying, but in terms of it's morality and general raison d'etre).

For the sequels I'd like to see a balance. It'd be disappointing if they don't explore some fancy force ability and with those guys from the Raid, I'd like to think they're going to add a bit more flourish to the choreography than was seen in the originals.
At the same time, I don't want them having to bull**** their way out of situations with overpowered characters with bad writing.

TheDoc

To be honest I never even gave it a thought until Adamantium mentioned it. I guess there is maybe an assumption of suspending that logic, considering Luke is the son of the heralded prophet?

And while obviously not be design when 4-6 where released, if you watch 1-6 it does lend to the notion that Luke might be the Jedi the prophecy refers too, only for it to come full circle again as Anakin. I actually find the end to ROTJ more impactful when I watch all six films in a marathon style watch. And in some ways it's a bit of a pity. While obviously Empire held the massive twist/reveal, the entire prophecy thing is actually a pretty cool part of star wars, that if you never watched Star Wars, and watched 1-6, would probably be the big bang in the series.

syklops

Did Obi-Wan ever get referred to as General Kenobi in the original trilogy? I don't think so.

Tony EH

"General Kenobi. Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to convey my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack, and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope."

Princess Leia.

GhostInTheRuins

Adamantium wrote: »

Dozens of Jedi Temple trained children

They weren't Jedi children, they were Jedi younglings, get it right!!

Kidchameleon

Gbear wrote: »

(given that any gob****e could use telekinesis in the prequels)

Apparently:

The Force is much stronger in the new movie, hence it can be felt by much more characters (it causes that stormtrooper we see in the trailer to defect for example) it "awakens" so to speak.

Bipolar Joe

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

You've got to remember about the original films that Lucas has signficantly altered them over the years, especially the special effects, and almost all the changes (those not incidental to the story) are harmful to the series (Han shot Greedo first after all, a major character development point, but the remastered versions changed that scene to pretend that Greedo shot first). So the films you saw were probably significantly different than the original releases, and in all honesty probably worse for it.

Han not only shot first, he was the ONLY ONE that shot. Greedo didn't get a single shot at all.

Iranoutofideas

Its best to just ignore the prequels completely. If you take them onboard they pretty much ruin and undermine every single aspect of the original trilogy.

Quite a feat from Lucas.

syklops

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

Its best to just ignore the prequels completely. If you take them onboard they pretty much ruin and undermine every single aspect of the original trilogy.

Quite a feat from Lucas.

edit: Got that from the archive from 2002.

Considering the day thats in it, I now officially feel old.

Falthyron

Abrams confirms some of the leaked rumours are true:

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-31548370

Liamario

Falthyron wrote: »

Abrams confirms some of the leaked rumours are true:

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-31548370

I don't think there is any doubt that some of the leaks are true. It's more surprising that he has come out and actually acknowledged the fact.
Anyways, I think I've read enough of the plot in the form of rumours to keep me going till release. I just want to see some official media now and my hype levels can be properly calibrated.

Synode

Liamario wrote: »

I just want to see some official media now and my hype levels can be properly calibrated.

Are you some sort of droid