Star Wars: The Force Awakens [** SPOILERS FROM POST 4472 ONWARD **]

Zubeneschamali

VinLieger wrote: »

its ALWAYS been canon that Luke created Rogue Squadron after the first death star blew

If it isn't in the movies, Disney don't care.

VinLieger

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If it isn't in the movies, Disney don't care.

It happens between NH and Empire, hence red one etc at Yavin and Rogue one etc on Hoth, but yeah i get you they couldn't give two ****s cus only people like myself will care whil they are only out for the avenger drones money

thegreengoblin

If anyone wants to get tickets for next year's Celebration Europe in London they're on sale now. Not sure what I'll do. It's very early to be buying tickets for something that's over a year away. It would likely be an expensive trip too...you'd need to bring an empty suitcase!

http://www.showclix.com/event/StarWarsCelebrationEurope/?campaigncode=CampGE

Brian Shanahan

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Disney added about $2b to it's share price on the back of the trailer..

That is pretty crazy really.

It's been quite a while (before the 90s dot-com boom) since the majority of share prices reflected the reality of the underlying value of the companies they represent, apart from the short blip after 2008.

That's one of the bigger reasons why we're not really out of the latest depression yet, the fact that share prices are shored up by QE and nothing else. I'd expound more but I'm digressing too much as is.

Wedwood

I remember in 1977 reading on the back of one of the Star Wars trading cards that Lucas said he had 12 movies in mind. The prequel idea first appeared after Star Wars was re-released in 1978 with 'Episode IV' now added as a subtitle.

Its fairly clear that Lucas was making much of it up as he went along. In Star Wars, Darth Vader was clearly a different person to Anakin as outlined by Obi Wan to Luke. That obviously got changed in Empire Strikes Back in perhaps the biggest plot twist in cinematic history.

In 'Empire', there's no sense that Leia and Luke are siblings as eventually revealed in 'Jedi'. As for the 'kissing scene' in the medical bay, its just that by then, the film makers had finally decided which of the two heroes Leia would eventually be paired off with.

The 'other' mentioned by Yoda in 'Empire' was clearly meant to be somebody previously unseen who would eventually save the day should Luke fall to the Dark Side. (In the previous 12 episode saga, rumour had it that Luke would kill his father's murderer (Vader) and go to the Dark Side in the process, to be eventually redeemed by the 'other' by the end of the 12th (or 9th) movie.)

By 1983, Lucas had tired of Star Wars and wrapped up the story by making Leia the 'other', with Luke redeeming his father rather than being the one 'to be redeemed'. A quick bit of retrofitting the Anakin/Vader story by Obi-Wan and presto ! The saga now done in 3 rather than 9/12 !!

thegreengoblin

Wedwood wrote: »

I remember in 1977 reading on the back of one of the Star Wars trading cards that Lucas said he had 12 movies in mind. The prequel idea first appeared after Star Wars was re-released in 1978 with 'Episode IV' now added as a subtitle.

Its fairly clear that Lucas was making much of it up as he went along. In Star Wars, Darth Vader was clearly a different person to Anakin as outlined by Obi Wan to Luke. That obviously got changed in Empire Strikes Back in perhaps the biggest plot twist in cinematic history.

In 'Empire', there's no sense that Leia and Luke are siblings as eventually revealed in 'Jedi'. As for the 'kissing scene' in the medical bay, its just that by then, the film makers had finally decided which of the two heroes Leia would eventually be paired off with.

The 'other' mentioned by Yoda in 'Empire' was clearly meant to be somebody previously unseen who would eventually save the day should Luke fall to the Dark Side. (In the previous 12 episode saga, rumour had it that Luke would kill his father's murderer (Vader) and go to the Dark Side in the process, to be eventually redeemed by the 'other' by the end of the 12th (or 9th) movie.)

By 1983, Lucas had tired of Star Wars and wrapped up the story by making Leia the 'other', with Luke redeeming his father rather than being the one 'to be redeemed'. A quick bit of retrofitting the Anakin/Vader story by Obi-Wan and presto ! The saga now done in 3 rather than 9/12 !!

What about the scene where Leia is escaping from Cloud City on the Falcon and 'hears' Luke's voice so goes back to get him?

J Mysterio

Wedwood wrote: »

I remember in 1977 reading on the back of one of the Star Wars trading cards that Lucas said he had 12 movies in mind. The prequel idea first appeared after Star Wars was re-released in 1978 with 'Episode IV' now added as a subtitle.

I've never heard that before and would need evidence.

Wedwood wrote: »

Its fairly clear that Lucas was making much of it up as he went along. In Star Wars, Darth Vader was clearly a different person to Anakin as outlined by Obi Wan to Luke. That obviously got changed in Empire Strikes Back in perhaps the biggest plot twist in cinematic history.

Obi-Wan considered the Sith Lord Darth Vader to be a different entity to the Jedi Anakin Skywalker. He was also aware that telling it to Luke straight would have a profound impact on him so stalled.

Wedwood wrote: »

In 'Empire', there's no sense that Leia and Luke are siblings as eventually revealed in 'Jedi'. As for the 'kissing scene' in the medical bay, its just that by then, the film makers had finally decided which of the two heroes Leia would eventually be paired off with.

No. Lucas had outlines for the story. There were to be 9 and they would all deal with three generations of Skywalkers - Luke & Leaia (4,5,6), their parents (1,2,3), and their children (7,8,9).

Wedwood wrote: »

The 'other' mentioned by Yoda in 'Empire' was clearly meant to be somebody previously unseen who would eventually save the day should Luke fall to the Dark Side. (In the previous 12 episode saga, rumour had it that Luke would kill his father's murderer (Vader) and go to the Dark Side in the process, to be eventually redeemed by the 'other' by the end of the 12th (or 9th) movie.)

By 1983, Lucas had tired of Star Wars and wrapped up the story by making Leia the 'other', with Luke redeeming his father rather than being the one 'to be redeemed'. A quick bit of retrofitting the Anakin/Vader story by Obi-Wan and presto ! The saga now done in 3 rather than 9/12 !!

Nah.

Tony EH

eviltimeban wrote: »

Fixed it there, but also I agree with you. The "duel of the fates" wasn't it? Ironically TFM delivered more quality Star Wars-y moments than either of the follow ups. Some great landscapes too, and Naboo looked amazing. I didn't find Jake Lloyd as annoying as most people do, and as for Jar Jar... well:

Well, if you delete Jar Jar, that ridiculous pod race, Anakin flying a space ship, medichlorians, The virgin birth, The Gungans and some of Jake Lloyds more irritating dialogue, then you'd have an ok(ish) Star Wars episode.

It'd be about 10 minutes long, but I think it might be ok.

I think...

Zubeneschamali

J Mysterio wrote: »

Obi-Wan considered the Sith Lord Darth Vader to be a different entity to the Jedi Anakin Skywalker. He was also aware that telling it to Luke straight would have a profound impact on him so stalled.

Yeah, we've all seen the movies.

But this is obviously made up while writing Empire.

There are drafts of the Empire script where Luke's father appears as a ghost on Dagobah - a good trick if he's flying about in a superduper star destroyer at the same time.

Tony EH

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Two hours of watching catch-phrases from TOS with no interval of inventiveness or proper storytelling in between? A cast where only one of them even bothered to try and understand the part he was playing (Karl Urban as Bones)? A script that bordered on the lines of "Profit and Lace" for awfulness?

You bet your arse I didn't (well, at least when I took the time to actually think about what I witnessed, having seen the film the first week of release).

Yeh, there was waaaay too much "what about the new Star Trek" going on. It wasn't that good at all. An ok curio, but that's it, with a pretty dreadful sequel...

...and Abrams is not the savior of modern cinema either.

Wedwood

thegreengoblin wrote: »

What about the scene where Leia is escaping from Cloud City on the Falcon and 'hears' Luke's voice so goes back to get him?

Speculation: Luke had seen Solo encased in carbonite, calling out to Leia instead was logical. Its a moot point now, but again there was no sense in 1980 they were siblings, it instead became the next 'revelation' in Jedi.

Also in 'Splinter of the Minds Eye', which was written in 1978 as a potential sequel, there are clear romantic overtones between Luke and Leia, which you presume you wouldnt do (along with the subsequent kissing scene in Empire, if you knew in advance these were siblings - unless you intended it to be a retrospective yuk !!

Wedwood

J Mysterio wrote: »

I've never heard that before and would need evidence.

Dale Pollock, author of the 1984 George Lucas biography, Skywalking: The Life And Films Of George Lucas. “It was originally a 12-part saga. The three most exciting stories were 7, 8 and 9. They had propulsive action, really interesting new worlds, new characters. I remember thinking, ‘I want to see these 3 movies.’”

I wont debate the other points as its academic now, Jedi is probably a better movie because it expedited the overall story.

Realt Dearg Sec

Wedwood wrote: »

Jedi is probably a better movie because it expedited the overall story.

What do you mean?

J Mysterio

"So, I took the screenplay and divided it into three stories, and rewrote the first one. As I was writing, I came up with some ideas for a film about robots, with no humans in it. When I got to working on the Wookiee, I thought of a film just about Wookiees, nothing else. So, for a time, I had a couple of odd movies with just those characters. Then, I had the other two films, which were essentially split into three parts each, two trilogies. When the smoke cleared, I said, 'This is really great. I'll do another trilogy that takes place after this.' I had three trilogies of nine films, and then another couple of odd films. Essentially, there were twelve films"

"…eliminated the odd movies, because they really don't have anything to do with the Star Wars saga. ... I'm just going to keep it pure. It's a nine-part saga that has a beginning, a middle and an end. It progresses over a period of about fifty or sixty years with about twenty years between trilogies, each trilogy taking about six or seven years"

George Lucas, 1980

Zubeneschamali

J Mysterio wrote: »

George Lucas, 1980

Are you trying to show that Lucas had this big plan, or that Lucas was always a spoofer?

Because only one of those is true...

J Mysterio

Im pointing out that there was an outline for 9 films, with key plot points.

Sad Professor

I think the truth is that the original Star Wars was never intended to be part of a 12, 9 or even 3 film series. It was designed as a standalone tribute to the old serials of Lucas’s youth, which people often viewed and enjoyed individual chapters of without ever seeing the complete series. When the film was a hit and the possibility of sequels became a reality, Lucas scrabbled to come up with a plan, which came together over the course of Empire’s cluster**** of a production which seemingly killed off his enthusiasm for the series.

mrsoundie

Sad Professor wrote: »

I think the truth is that the original Star Wars was never intended to be part of a 12, 9 or even 3 film series. It was designed as a standalone tribute to the old serials of Lucas’s youth, which people often viewed and enjoyed individual chapters of without ever seeing the complete series. When the film was a hit and the possibility of sequels became a reality, Lucas scrabbled to come up with a plan, which came together over the course of Empire’s cluster**** of a production which seemingly killed off his enthusiasm for the series.

Synode

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Are you trying to show that Lucas had this big plan, or that Lucas was always a spoofer?

Because only one of those is true...

Which one's that then?

eviltimeban

VinLieger wrote: »

The premise for Rogue one pisses me off no end, its ALWAYS been canon that Luke created Rogue Squadron after the first death star blew, and if Rogue One is set between RotS and NH then this stomping all over canon is just getting ridiculous as its not possible for Luke to have started them, it also likely destroys the likelihood of seeing any of the great characters and plots from the x-wing books ever again

Is Rogue One not going to be set between ROTS and ANH? So it's about the rebels who steal the Death Star plans and get them to Leia?

VinLieger

eviltimeban wrote: »

Is Rogue One not going to be set between ROTS and ANH? So it's about the rebels who steal the Death Star plans and get them to Leia?

Exactly, however Luke was involved along with Wedge in creating Rogue Squadron, after a New Hope so calling the movie Rogue One, implying its about Rogue Squadron, doesn't fit if its before New Hope unless Disney are gonna once again just piss all over canon and the EU which is highly likely

J Mysterio

eviltimeban wrote: »

Is Rogue One not going to be set between ROTS and ANH? So it's about the rebels who steal the Death Star plans and get them to Leia?

While that would be a pretty cool film, I don't see how they would do it? It would ruin continuity through the films in that you would need to recast scores of actors for major roles.

Whats the point in getting Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford etc. back when they would just go off and get a 'new luke' for a 'filler film' tween the trilogies?

Probably more likely to be animated....

Adamantium

The entire prequel trilogy and Leia been Luke's sister is another retcon too. When Yoda whispers "there is another..." in ESB, that was to be a sister that would team up with around EPVIII to do battle with the Emperor in EPIX.

There was even the thought among Lucas and Kurtz, that Luke wouldn't make it, be killed before the end and having the sister finish the job. Now that would have been a TWIST.

But things change, and the story was compressed to finish up in ROTJ. There were multiple ideas for what sequel trilogy was going to be about or if it would even happen at all after the rest of the story had been compressed into Return of the Jedi. Basically Lucasfilm didn't have a clue and there is nothing wrong with that.

Rogue One is likely to be a makeshift unprepared team who without Jedi or backup who get slaughtered (all bit a few), are in way over their heads, and the squadrons there after are named in their honour. Can't wait for it.

CatInABox

J Mysterio wrote: »

While that would be a pretty cool film, I don't see how they would do it? It would ruin continuity through the films in that you would need to recast scores of actors for major roles.

Whats the point in getting Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford etc. back when they would just go off and get a 'new luke' for a 'filler film' tween the trilogies?

Probably more likely to be animated....

No one from the main films will be in the stand alone films, maybe someone like Boba Fett or even Darth Vader, i.e. characters that can be played by anyone because they totally masked.

Dont be at yourself

I remember reading soon after the idea of spinoffs was announced that one idea being considered was of a Dirty Dozen-style team of bounty hunters attempting to steal the Death Star plans on behalf of the Rebel Alliance. That sounds fantastic, hope they go with that idea, rather than plain ol' Rogue Squadron.

Pawwed Rig

There was a series of books about Boba Fett that are well worth a read called the Mandalorian Armour

eviltimeban

J Mysterio wrote: »

While that would be a pretty cool film, I don't see how they would do it? It would ruin continuity through the films in that you would need to recast scores of actors for major roles.

Not necessary, if it is before ANH. Luke is still a farm boy at this stage so would have no role to play. Leia doesn't really need to be in it, as they end up in her possession but the story would be about how the rebels operated between ROTS and ANH.

I'm not familiar with the expanded universe but wasn't Captain Antilles involved in the Death Star plans heist? The movie could revolve around him (and we all know how he ended up!)

Sorry, not too familiar with "canon" but most people aren't in fairness so they can do anything and not necessarily have to stick to what was written in EU books. Fanboys might get a bee in their bonnet but regular folk and even regular fans of the movies will be OK.

tony stark

Yes definitely delighted they've dispensed with the expanded universe. Terrible stuff altogether. Timothy Zahn was about the only half decent attempt. And even then those books wouldn't stand up as being that great now as an adult. The best thing to happen to Star Wars is a new movie no one knows anything about. Hats off to Abhrams for that. That was a major problem with the prequels( along with everything else ). Mark Hamill will save the day. Remember he was Star Wars back in the day!

Kiith

Didn't wedge setup Rogue Squadron alongside Luke? They could include him if they wanted to at least keep the EU fans happy.

tigger123

VinLieger wrote: »

Exactly, however Luke was involved along with Wedge in creating Rogue Squadron, after a New Hope so calling the movie Rogue One, implying its about Rogue Squadron, doesn't fit if its before New Hope unless Disney are gonna once again just piss all over canon and the EU which is highly likely

What are Rogue Squadron/ Rogue One? Are they Star Wars novels?