BIM Deep Sea Salmon Farm Aquaculture and Foreshore Licence Applications (T9/489A & B)

CJhaughey

_Puma_ wrote: »

On the other hand, good old Fidelma is all for it!

*I know it's unfair to single out a Senator, but the fact that her constituency could be effected with pollution and algae blooms in the bay. Shellfish harvesting in her constituency could be significantly damaged, I think its relevant.

I am no fan of Fidelma, but how do you equate Algal blooms with a fish farm?
Algal blooms happen everywhere even where there is no human activity.
They are just a natural phenomenon.

Park Royal

danbrosnan wrote: »

i dont know lads.. i think this one could go ahead, i really do cause the government need this story, jobs they need...

WE need the jobs thats for sure , but similar to not digging the gold out of Croagh Patrick and there are sizable finds of gold the damage it would cause is too high a price to pay ....(at the moment)

but if the project is put on land away from wild smolts and sea trout etc we can have both........

this is worth a viewing its a bit long but well worth the effort.....

http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2013/03/salmon-confidential.html

Zzippy

CJhaughey wrote: »

I am no fan of Fidelma, but how do you equate Algal blooms with a fish farm?
Algal blooms happen everywhere even where there is no human activity.
They are just a natural phenomenon.

Algal blooms are indeed a natural phenomenon, but they are more common and more severe where the level of nutrients in the water is artificially increased - hence the increasing number and impact of algal blooms in lakes in recent decades due to enrichment from sewage and agriculture. This fish farm will cause an increase in nutrient input into the bay - thousands of tonnes of fish faeces and uneaten food. It is reasonable to assume that this could result in a local increase in algal blooms.

CJhaughey

Zzippy wrote: »

It is reasonable to assume that this could result in a local increase in algal blooms.

Its not reasonable to assume anything unless its proven, there are plenty of fish farms already operating with no sign of algal blooms in the local area.

Park Royal

CJhaughey wrote: »

Its not reasonable to assume anything unless its proven, there are plenty of fish farms already operating with no sign of algal blooms in the local area.

Both in Chile and Canada , these types of large feeding lots have been proven

to cause environmental damage . Who is guaranteeing it wont happen here....

name and address please .....what bond are they providing to protect the

state?.

Put the project on land ......and spread the hundreds of tonnes of detritus on

farm land, away from waterways. ( but would the profits be "big" enough for

the shareholders?)

CJhaughey

Park Royal wrote: »

Both in Chile and Canada , these types of large feeding lots have been proven

to cause environmental damage . Who is guaranteeing it wont happen here....

I'll say it again, there are already salmon farms operating here.
In Killary, Bantry, Kenmare etc.
Where are the algal blooms from these farms?
If they were so prolific at causing algal blooms then all the areas above would have problems all the time with algal blooms.
But they don't seem to be affected any more than the rest of the country.

Maudi

CJhaughey wrote: »

I'll say it again, there are already salmon farms operating here.
In Killary, Bantry, Kenmare etc.
Where are the algal blooms from these farms?
If they were so prolific at causing algal blooms then all the areas above would have problems all the time with algal blooms.
But they don't seem to be affected any more than the rest of the country.

im on the fence on this one..surley farms give wild stock a breather to recover.provides jobs.and by their existance would these areas become a sort of marine santuary..but i wonder about the effect of so much fish crap all being dropped in the one area.and what happens if some seals turn up looking for easy pickings?

Park Royal

Maudi wrote: »

im on the fence on this one..surley farms give wild stock a breather to recover.provides jobs.and by their existance would these areas become a sort of marine santuary..but i wonder about the effect of so much fish crap all being dropped in the one area.and what happens if some seals turn up looking for easy pickings?

They'll go pink.......

Zzippy

CJhaughey wrote: »

Its not reasonable to assume anything unless its proven, there are plenty of fish farms already operating with no sign of algal blooms in the local area.

Read my post again, I said its reasonable to assume they could result in algal blooms i.e. that it is a possibility. I didn't say it was proven. This proposed farm would be larger than ALL those other fish farms in the country COMBINED. So instead of small local inputs of nutrients in bays scattered all over the country, you will have one large input in a single bay that is equivalent to the nutrients from all those other farms together. No one knows how this will impact on the local environment in terms of algal blooms, therefore it is reasonable to keep an open mind, and assume that this input COULD result in algal blooms.

As it happens, having seen how natural algal blooms like last year's Karenia mikimotoi devastated inshore fisheries along the west coast, I'm less worried about blooms from this farm than about the threat from sea lice and disease. That is the real issue that anglers are concerned about.

Maudi

Park Royal wrote: »

They'll go pink.......

what will go pink?

Zzippy

Debate on the proposal on the Pat Kenny show on RTE Radio 1 at 10am Tuesday 12th...

Park Royal

Research indicates upwards of 1% of farmed fish escape when being handled

at the cages......slippery things these fish......

now if the feeding lots were on land ...no problem......

What was the name of the US minesweeper that ran into an island.......

USS Guardian........all that modern equipment and the best of the best hit a

not so small island......unknown unknowns ....that must have happened years

ago could not happen now...everything is improved.....17th Jan 2013.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jan/30/us-navy-dismantle-minesweeper-coral

Everything is better and improved ...my left foot it is.....

Auldloon

Park Royal wrote: »

WE need the jobs thats for sure , but similar to not digging the gold out of Croagh Patrick and there are sizable finds of gold the damage it would cause is too high a price to pay ....(at the moment)

but if the project is put on land away from wild smolts and sea trout etc we can have both........

this is worth a viewing its a bit long but well worth the effort.....

http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2013/03/salmon-confidential.html

Hi I watched that video last night. Its an excellent documentary. Everyone who is posting on this thread should set an hour + aside and watch it.

Flysfisher

Zzippy wrote: »

Debate on the proposal on the Pat Kenny show on RTE Radio 1 at 10am Tuesday 12th...

Very poor debate. The anti fish farm side was very poor. Why are the big wig scientists from the IFI not beating down the door about this? or have I missed something? They seem very very quiet to me.

Zzippy

Flysfisher wrote: »

Very poor debate. The anti fish farm side was very poor. Why are the big wig scientists from the IFI not beating down the door about this? or have I missed something? They seem very very quiet to me.

Because they have been told to shut up, and only one spokesperson is permitted to speak on behalf of IFI... :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, BIM are allowed to get away with saying anything to justify their pet project, including distorting the truth, misrepresenting scientific data, omitting relevant data that doesn't suit their agenda, calling pesticides "medicines", spending serious amounts of taxpayers money on PR (well after the public consultation period is closed and this could be justified), etc.

IFI senior management is letting us all down by staying quiet on this issue

Zzippy

Worth a listen, the folly of this project captured perfectly in song...


Fish Farm Blues, by Pat Quinn from Inis Oirr, only 1 mile from the proposed farm.

Flysfisher

Zzippy wrote: »

Because they have been told to shut up, and only one spokesperson is permitted to speak on behalf of IFI... :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, BIM are allowed to get away with saying anything to justify their pet project, including distorting the truth, misrepresenting scientific data, omitting relevant data that doesn't suit their agenda, calling pesticides "medicines", spending serious amounts of taxpayers money on PR (well after the public consultation period is closed and this could be justified), etc.

IFI senior management is letting us all down by staying quiet on this issue

I would really love to know who told them to shut up? Is it a case of one state agency not allowed have a public spat with another? The IFI are letting anglers down on ths issue, I know they have made submissions to the department but they should be banging the door down on this one.
We want fighting men running angling, not yes men.

Park Royal

Flysfisher wrote: »

I would really love to know who told them to shut up? Is it a case of one state agency not allowed have a public spat with another? The IFI are letting anglers down on ths issue, I know they have made submissions to the department but they should be banging the door down on this one.
We want fighting men running angling, not yes men.

Its normal procedure to have certain people authorised to speak on behalf of

the organisation, usually the Public Relations Dept, the PR dept would ensure

they are putting out the organisation view as per The Board instructions....

and senior management......if you want to keep your job in most organisations

you better comply with organisational rules and procedures.....otherwise get

yourself another job.......simple.......so ends another lesson in the facts of life.

downwiththatsor

CJhaughey wrote: »

I'll say it again, there are already salmon farms operating here.
In Killary, Bantry, Kenmare etc.
Where are the algal blooms from these farms?
If they were so prolific at causing algal blooms then all the areas above would have problems all the time with algal blooms.
But they don't seem to be affected any more than the rest of the country.

Strange how the blooms last year are in similar locations to the major salmon farms, especially the North West, coincidence?

http://www.marine.ie/home/aboutus/newsroom/pressreleases/ExceptionalAlgalBloomdetectedinNorthWest.htm
Marine Institute claim that "“These blooms are part of the natural cycle of phytoplankton in the sea, and originate offshore."


http://marineharvest.com/en/About-Marine-Harvest/About-Marine-Harvest1/Ireland/

Park Royal

downwiththatsor wrote: »

Strange how the blooms last year are in similar locations to the major salmon farms, especially the North West, coincidence?

Interesting,... is there a map with all the Irish fish farms listed......?

.....this mentions "major" fish farms......?

can the publications be accessed with the above data....?...

mp22

If I may point out that the location of the blooms in Bantry Bay and dunmannus bays are on top of the mussel farms,as much as the salmon farms.

downwiththatsor

I am unaware of negative water quality impacts if mussel farming, mussels are filter feeders and phytoplankton are part of their diet hence the negative affect of these blooms on their subsequent edibility.
There are extensive mussel farms in Castlemaine Harbour with no recorded blooms.

Regards

Zzippy

I don't think there is a causative link between salmon farms and the Karenia bloom from last year, much as it would strengthen the case against them and that would make me happy. These blooms have occurred periodically in the past, and are far too large both in terms of geographic spread, and impact, to be caused by local inputs of nutrients. The algal bloom tends to start offshore, and then drift into inshore areas - as such it is more of an oceanic event. That said, large local inputs of nutrients may increase algal growth and artifically extend the impact of the blooms on a local scale. There are no salmon farms in Galway Bay (yet) but it was badly hit last year by the bloom. Similarly, north Donegal was not badly hit, yet has quite a number of salmon farms.

On another note, An Tasice have now come out and issued a statement that BIM should withdraw the application, citing the bias of the minister. Taken from the Irish Angler fb page (probably copied from a press source but it wasn't cited, so I've copied direct from fb):

To maintain fish farm proposal would waste taxpayers' money

An Taisce - the National Trust for Ireland, has said that a failure by BIM to withdraw its proposal for a 456-hectare fish farm proposal between the Aran Islands and the Co Clare coast would waste taxpayers' money.
An Taisce said “It was now clear that Minister Coveney, the relevant decision-maker, was biased in favour of the proposal. Therefore any decision by him to approve the plan would be fundamentally flawed."
An Taisce referred to statements made by Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív at the weekend, in which the FF deputy outlined the circumstances in which Minister Coveney conveyed his support for the proposal to Mr Ó Cuív.
"BIM has no option now but to withdraw its application", observed James Nix, An Taisce's Policy Director, adding that to "continue to plough public money into promoting this proposal would be a gross misuse of taxpayers' funds".
Mr Nix added that the proposal had now been completely compromised from a procedural standpoint, as well as the substantive points weighing against it.
"While it is not the intention, the reality is that such fish farms become giant incubation centres for sea lice, not only to the detriment of fish inside the sub-surface cages, but also wild salmon passing in nearby waters.
Jeopardising wild salmon in Ireland, together with the associated tourism sector, for the sake of caged fish proposals which carry no tourism spin-off never added up", he observed. "Norway has stopped promoting the type of fish farm proposed by BIM", he added.

danbrosnan

Zzippy wrote: »

I don't think there is a causative link between salmon farms and the Karenia bloom from last year, much as it would strengthen the case against them and that would make me happy. These blooms have occurred periodically in the past, and are far too large both in terms of geographic spread, and impact, to be caused by local inputs of nutrients. The algal bloom tends to start offshore, and then drift into inshore areas - as such it is more of an oceanic event. That said, large local inputs of nutrients may increase algal growth and artifically extend the impact of the blooms on a local scale. There are no salmon farms in Galway Bay (yet) but it was badly hit last year by the bloom. Similarly, north Donegal was not badly hit, yet has quite a number of salmon farms.

On another note, An Tasice have now come out and issued a statement that BIM should withdraw the application, citing the bias of the minister. Taken from the Irish Angler fb page (probably copied from a press source but it wasn't cited, so I've copied direct from fb):

Take for example cromane with a huge mussel industry, as far as the map shows there was no bloom... like i am studying this subject at the moment but i still don't know much about it, but from a logical point of view, the map shows blooms in areas where fish farms are... its that simple, and how the marine harvest pr people will turn peoples minds is by over analysing it and stating loads of different points which really have no relevance.

Look i have said this before they wouldn't put a fish farm in the moy estuary or in Waterville...

It should be the same all over this country... We have native salmon, fresh water, why not stock hundreds of rivers along the west coast, repopulate them and have a commercial netting when they return..

Real wild salmon... That would be the right thing to do...:mad:

danbrosnan

Will somebody correct me, i don't got a list of every fish farm in the country, but i know there is some in kenmare bay and various other places around the country, now it does look like to me by going with the map, that where the map states there was blooms they are in the area of fish farms??!!!

Is this correct i don't know!?

Auldloon

danbrosnan wrote: »

Take for example cromane with a huge mussel industry, as far as the map shows there was no bloom... like i am studying this subject at the moment but i still don't know much about it, but from a logical point of view, the map shows blooms in areas where fish farms are... its that simple, and how the marine harvest pr people will turn peoples minds is by over analysing it and stating loads of different points which really have no relevance.

Look i have said this before they wouldn't put a fish farm in the moy estuary or in Waterville...

It should be the same all over this country... We have native salmon, fresh water, why not stock hundreds of rivers along the west coast, repopulate them and have a commercial netting when they return..

Real wild salmon... That would be the right thing to do...:mad:

Where do you propose to get these salmon to stock rivers? What size do you stock at and what returns do you expect?

Zzippy

danbrosnan wrote: »

Take for example cromane with a huge mussel industry, as far as the map shows there was no bloom... like i am studying this subject at the moment but i still don't know much about it, but from a logical point of view, the map shows blooms in areas where fish farms are... its that simple, and how the marine harvest pr people will turn peoples minds is by over analysing it and stating loads of different points which really have no relevance.

Look i have said this before they wouldn't put a fish farm in the moy estuary or in Waterville...

It should be the same all over this country... We have native salmon, fresh water, why not stock hundreds of rivers along the west coast, repopulate them and have a commercial netting when they return..

Real wild salmon... That would be the right thing to do...:mad:

Dan, I know the bloom on the map does coincide with a lot of salmon farming areas, but if you're studying science you will learn that correlation does not always equal causation. The algal bloom started offshore and drifted into the west coast, which happens to contain all the salmon farms. Nutrient inputs from farms may exacerbate blooms in local bays, but there is no way they could cause a bloom that size that extended for hundreds of miles.

As for Waterville, there is a salmon farm just a few miles round the corner at Deenish Island. They got permission last year to increase production capacity.

Salmon stocks are at a low enough ebb at the moment. Sea survival is the issue. Stocking rivers will have very little effect on boosting stocks, since the problem is at sea, and most rivers have a certain carrying capacity - they can only produce so many smolts. There is already a commercial fishery (draft netting) on river estuaries where the scientists deem the stock level is high enough for a surplus to be harvested.

danbrosnan

Zzippy wrote: »

Dan, I know the bloom on the map does coincide with a lot of salmon farming areas, but if you're studying science you will learn that correlation does not always equal causation. The algal bloom started offshore and drifted into the west coast, which happens to contain all the salmon farms. Nutrient inputs from farms may exacerbate blooms in local bays, but there is no way they could cause a bloom that size that extended for hundreds of miles.

As for Waterville, there is a salmon farm just a few miles round the corner at Deenish Island. They got permission last year to increase production capacity.

Salmon stocks are at a low enough ebb at the moment. Sea survival is the issue. Stocking rivers will have very little effect on boosting stocks, since the problem is at sea, and most rivers have a certain carrying capacity - they can only produce so many smolts. There is already a commercial fishery (draft netting) on river estuaries where the scientists deem the stock level is high enough for a surplus to be harvested.

I completely disagree with you, and here is my reason, lets take what i know, you say that certain rivers, take a certain capacity and thats very true, and that stocking spate rivers on the dingle peninsula would not produce results, i believe it would, all we can do on this island, is worry about how we protect our salmon in our waters, hundreds apon hundreds of spate rivers along our west coast have no protection, no hatcheries, no future...

You say that they already give commercial licences for salmon in estuaries where there is significant numbers of salmon running, what about the river Feale in north kerry... 1000 SALMON RETURNING LAST YEAR IN JUNE COUNTED ON THE FISH COUNTER, the river was granted, catch and release for the anglers and then as far as i know there was licenses granted to commercially fish for wild atlantic salmon entering the Feale through the Cashen...

You said there was a license granted for extra capacity for a fish farm at dinnish, i would think this would have no effect on the waterville system, as it is a allot more then a few miles from it, i cycle the ring of kerry every year and trust me its a good distance, the fish farm is not in direct obstruction of the waterville system, but take the kerry backwater...

The kerry blackwater river is closed this year, i can never remember that river ever been closed before, obviously the stocks in the river are a way down on previous years... a magnificent river years ago... guess what, the fish farm is in direct obstruction to that river...

Our problem ere in Ireland is that we forget about what we have, and completely ignore our beautiful small rivers and lakes... the rivers like the Lee in Cork, Cork Blackwater, the Slaney, the Laune, the Moy, get all the investment and protection...

Here are rivers on the dingle peninsula that do hold salmon and if protected the whole peninsula could be a salmon conservation area for the world to admire...

Fhenonagh,
Owenmore,
Anascual,
Lispole river,
Aughcashla,
Scorid,
Miltown,
Emlagh,
Glenahoo.

There is also countless lochs that hold sea trout and salmon, loch slat is a prime example, loch caum above it is stocked with rainbows, when the lake below has salmon and sea trout running it. Last year i counted three salmon on the bank caught by a local angler, fresh fish... The Aughcasla river and loch slat has no protection or management.

All these rivers are completely forgotten about....

I am hopefully only starting to study this concept and if all goes well this year will be studying it full time next year untill 2016...

_Puma_

Listening to Minister's question today and Deputy O Cuiv raised the issue of the minster acting as judge and jury in his own court with regard to the application. He refuted this and infromed the deputy O Cuiv that there is an appeal authority in place.

When deputy O Cuiv raised the Moratorium in the National Development the minister exclaimed "there is no moratorium" and refused to answer any further questions.

Now this is really worrying. The minster is either unaware of the issues surrounding open pen Salmon farms or is being fed wrong information from his advisors, who include of course BIM. This or he is just pushing the application through without even properly considering the application.

Does anyone know who this Appeal authority is in regard to aquaculture applications?

Zzippy

_Puma_ wrote: »

Listening to Minister's question today and Deputy O Cuiv raised the issue of the minster acting as judge and jury in his own court with regard to the application. He refuted this and infromed the deputy O Cuiv that there is an appeal authority in place.

When deputy O Cuiv raised the Moratorium in the National Development the minister exclaimed "there is no moratorium" and refused to answer any further questions.

Now this is really worrying. The minster is either unaware of the issues surrounding open pen Salmon farms or is being fed wrong information from his advisors, who include of course BIM. This or he is just pushing the application through without even properly considering the application.

Does anyone know who this Appeal authority is in regard to aquaculture applications?

The appeal authority is the Aquaculture License Appeals Board (www.alab.ie), most of whom are involved in some way in the aquaculture industry, and all of whom are appointed by the Minister. Independent, huh!