Ain't nothing gonna break my stride....

ecoli

pconn062 wrote: »

Very interesting, ecoli probably thinks I'm stepping on his toes now! I never doubted you had a good reason for it, was just curious what it was. The main reason I asked is because I was curious how the jump from your easy 9 minute pace to 6.20 pace was. That's a big jump (for example, my 5k pace is about 5.40-45 a mile, if I added the 2 minutes and 40 secs you have my easy pace would be 8:20-30, whereas my actual easy pace is about a minute a mile quicker than that). But it makes sense when you explain you are in base building phase, this training lark is very interesting! You are in safe hands with ecoli anyway, he always gets the good athletes! :pac: Good luck with the training and will hopefully see you at the JB 5k.

Fecking Louth boys always sticking their oars in trying to cause controversy

A few of your points are ones which are valid concerns so Ill do my best to approach them (not saying my opinions are right are wrong just giving more background to the thinking behind the approach)

1 - You are comparing middle distance approach to long distance. As a middle distance runner I would say that the mileage would be naturally a bit lower due to commitments on supplementary work such as weights, plyo's, drills, on top of sessions. As such with the reduced mileage the tendency is to up the intensity. It is not uncommon to see 2 min 800m runners run their easy runs of maybe 4-6 mile @ 6.00 - 6.30 where they would be normally 7-10 miles at an easier pace if they were training for longer simply because they can recover quicker from shorter distance runs while still needing to get good solid aerobic capacity work

2 - Tend to avoid Mcmillan calculators as they can be a trap for many though I just had a look there and input my PBs from 800m- HM and though surprisingly consistent and fairly accurate with the tempo I couldn't help but notice the easy runs are very ambitious at the top end (has me at easy pace of 6.19-6.27 per mile :eek:). As a result I feel the recovery runs are a little too fast and also counter productive. The aim for these days is active recovery and enhancing bloodflow to the legs to bring fresh oxygenated blood. These runs are aimed to give similar effects to that of a massage (to an extent)

3 - Running Weekly structure Their has been a big change to the way which a week has been structured and as such it will take time for the body to adapt to this. In order to make this transition injury free we pulled back the intensity to stick to the philosophy of increase volume or intensity, not both at the same time. Over time this easy pace will return back down to previous levels.

4 - Running history - given the dip around Aug/ Sept we took a conscious approach to slow things down and hopefully break through the bad patch she was having. CM seems to be over the worst of it and is progressing steadily but everything done at the moment is with the view of a long term approach

(hopefully the explanations put CM's mind at ease in terms of actually having a method behind my madness )

statss

did I miss the thread where one could sign up for individual coaching?!

AuldManKing

statss wrote: »

did I miss the thread where one could sign up for individual coaching?!

you don't pick them................they pick you :cool:

ecoli

statss wrote: »

did I miss the thread where one could sign up for individual coaching?!

Indeed you did :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055882323&page=1

pconn062

ecoli wrote: »

1 - You are comparing middle distance approach to long distance. As a middle distance runner I would say that the mileage would be naturally a bit lower due to commitments on supplementary work such as weights, plyo's, drills, on top of sessions. As such with the reduced mileage the tendency is to up the intensity. It is not uncommon to see 2 min 800m runners run their easy runs of maybe 4-6 mile @ 6.00 - 6.30 where they would be normally 7-10 miles at an easier pace if they were training for longer simply because they can recover quicker from shorter distance runs while still needing to get good solid aerobic capacity work

Good post, very interesting. The only point that I would pick up on is that at the moment anyway, I'm not comparing to middle distance training, as I'm training for longer distances (cross country distances) at the minute. So reasonably decent mileage, 50-60 miles a week which is higher that some people do for a marathon! The same points still apply with this mileage to the easy pace.

ecoli

pconn062 wrote: »

Good post, very interesting. The only point that I would pick up on is that at the moment anyway, I'm not comparing to middle distance training, as I'm training for longer distances (cross country distances) at the minute. So reasonably decent mileage, 50-60 miles a week which is higher that some people do for a marathon! The same points still apply with this mileage to the easy pace.

Apologies I was making the assumption that your XC season was used to compliment your summer track season and I will admit that 50-60 miles is higher than many do for marathons (but a discussion about mileage is another rabbit hole)

I think the fact that we are also progressing to a 7 day week coupled with the change of focus in terms of mileage distribution throughout the week as opposed to a good proportion of mileage consisting of a long run takes some adaptation to and as such we are taking one step back to take two steps forward.

For the moment the increase in mileage is providing the stimulus in terms of aerobic development and once the body starts to adapts to this we will look to change the training stimulus and as such the paces will progress naturally.

drquirky

IMHO running too slow on recovery/ easy days is very rarely the problem. I wouldn't place Pconn in this group as his "easy" runs tend to be pretty reasonable ( from memory of your training log PConn) but if you read lots of the logs on here- many people are running far too fast on easy/ recovery days and have nothing left for sessions/ races. The older I get the more I have come to appreciate the role slow easy running can play in building a strong runner.

If I learned one thing from my recent marathon cycle it is that you can build an awful lot of aerobic power off of lots of easy running. Plenty of lads were running 15-30 secs a mile faster on lsr's than I was but many of them ran much slower races! Not blowing my own trumpet but if you look at some of the logs of faster guys like TRR and Ultra Percy you'll see lots of running that is at least a couple mins off their 5k pace !

Not saying easy running is always the answer but the base building phase is the most often skipped training phase on boards!

ecoli

drquirky wrote: »

IMHO running too slow on recovery/ easy days is very rarely the problem. I wouldn't place Pconn in this group as his "easy" runs tend to be pretty reasonable ( from memory of your training log PConn) but if you read lots of the logs on here- many people are running far too fast on easy/ recovery days and have nothing left for sessions/ races. The older I get the more I have come to appreciate the role slow easy running can play in building a strong runner.

If I learned one thing from my recent marathon cycle it is that you can build an awful lot of aerobic power off of lots of easy running. Plenty of lads were running 15-30 secs a mile faster on lsr's than I was but many of them ran much slower races! Not blowing my own trumpet but if you look at some of the logs of faster guys like TRR and Ultra Percy you'll see lots of running that is at least a couple mins off their 5k pace !

Not saying easy running is always the answer but the base building phase is the most often skipped training phase on boards!

Have to agree on this point there are plenty of examples from boards which come to mind off the top of my head;

tRR
Krusty
ultrapercy
smoore79
CL (hard to tell sometimes with her absenteeism:D)
quirky
Even TRunners recent change to Hadd

This is also compounded when I train with the likes of the UCD runners, some of the club lads who would be streaks ahead of myself performance wise yet focus on the philosophy of hard days hard and easy days easy.

SamforMayo

Aimman wrote: »

Ok, so who is Dasterdly and who is Mutley?

Im saying nothing with out a solicitor present!

pconn062

I think I should just clarify, I very much believe in the principle of hard days hard, easy days easy. The only thing I was querying was the relationship between CM's 5k pace (6.20) and her recovery pace (10:30). I realise that you can't run your recovery runs too easy but I was curious as to how CM felt when doing this pace, as it seems very slow compared to her 5k pace (the equivalent to me running 9:45 for my recovery pace, which I would find difficult to do). When it comes to easy pace I always tend to lean towards the slightly hard side of easy, I don't ever go into the comfortable zone on easy days, but I don't settle into the very easy side either (unless I'm feeling particularly tired). But different things work for different people and it is good that CM had a coach to tailor things to her needs.

Sorry for the log hijack CM!

career_move

9m @ 9:05

with 6 x 120m strides (25,25,25,24,24,24)

Feeling good today. Right calf muscle is a tiny bit tender. Stretched them out this morning and going to do it a few times during the day

career_move

3m @ 10:31

Calf is much better. No tenderness at all. I have to stop spending an extra hour in bed on recovery days though. Made me late for work.

Claire is coming home next Tuesday. Happy days. Also have an update on the peregrine falcons. Yesterday in The Battle of Ballagh Castle the falcons succeeded in overthrowing the nasty ravens and reclaiming the castle for themselves. The ravens were banished to the nearby tree where they continue to cast covetous eyes on the castle .....

SamforMayo

career_move wrote: »

3m @ 10:31

Calf is much better. No tenderness at all. I have to stop spending an extra hour in bed on recovery days though. Made me late for work.

Claire is coming home next Tuesday. Happy days. Also have an update on the peregrine falcons. Yesterday in The Battle of Ballagh Castle the falcons succeeded in overthrowing the nasty ravens and reclaiming the castle for themselves. The ravens were banished to the nearby tree where they continue to cast covetous eyes on the castle .....

Im afraid to ask if the pigeons played any role in the battle? These mornings are so dark its easy to sleep on

Runchick

career_move wrote: »

3m @ 10:31

Calf is much better. No tenderness at all. I have to stop spending an extra hour in bed on recovery days though. Made me late for work.

Claire is coming home next Tuesday. Happy days. Also have an update on the peregrine falcons. Yesterday in The Battle of Ballagh Castle the falcons succeeded in overthrowing the nasty ravens and reclaiming the castle for themselves. The ravens were banished to the nearby tree where they continue to cast covetous eyes on the castle .....

Brilliant training going on here c_m, you seem to be in great shape!
I hope your mum is on the mend again soon, I'm sure it'll be a great lift to all of you to have your sister home

career_move

SamforMayo wrote: »

Im afraid to ask if the pigeons played any role in the battle? These mornings are so dark its easy to sleep on

Haha the pigeons have multiplied - counted 8 this morning

Runchick wrote: »

Brilliant training going on here c_m, you seem to be in great shape!
I hope your mum is on the mend again soon, I'm sure it'll be a great lift to all of you to have your sister home

Thanks:D Hope you're getting back in good form too

career_move

Tempo: Not a word I like that much. It has negative connotations in my mind and I was dreading this even more than the hill session on Wednesday. Part of it is I haven't done that many tempos in training and part of it is a fear of failure. This is sort of my nemesis pace - Athlone is still fresh in my mind Felt good heading out this morning though. RHR 42. Warm up of two easy miles that felt very easy 9:02, 8:58. Pace for the tempo miles was to be between 7 and 7:05 keeping a constant effort. I did an out and back route and the first two miles were slightly downhill but into a strong enough headwind which I wasn't expecting. 7:04, 7:05. Jaysus my legs were cold on these miles. Note to self: tempo shorts not required for tempo sessions in winter Turned around and tried to keep the same effort for the next two. I knew the pace was a bit faster but I figured the wind was probably having an effect and I was happy I was keeping the effort the same. 6:57, 6:49. Very pleased with this as I felt I could have kept going for another few miles. Did two easy miles as a cooldown 8:59, 8:59 then back home for my second breakfast

Beef

Great running and nice to have a good session out of the way early in the weekend!

I find the worst part of tempo runs is the thinking about it before hand. Once you're out there doing them it's normally grand and then afterwards you feel great.

career_move

12m @ 9:00

Miles flew by on this one. I had run a mile and a bit when I decided to turn around and do the ring the other way .... variety being the spice of life and the usual mile spots were out of sync. I meant to change my watch to average pace so I could switch my brain off for a while but I only remembered when I was out on the road and I couldn't be bothered stopping but it was fine anyway.

Another month, another table:

Month|Miles
Jan|150.4
Feb|205
Mar|210
Apr|193
May|125.6
Jun|156
Jul|200
Aug|227
Sept|120
Oct|149
Nov|193
Total|1941

AuldManKing

That's massive mileage! Impressive.

What's on the horizon for '14?

career_move

AuldManKing wrote: »

What's on the horizon for '14?

Provisional summary:

Tom Brennan 5k Jan 1st

Raheny 5m Jan 28th

Meath HM Mar 3rd

Kclub 10k Apr 20th

Poulmucka 8k May 24th
Portumna HM Jun 14th

Daingean 5k Aug 2nd

Charleville HM Sept 23rd
Stook 10m Nov 16th

Dates may be slightly out and there'll probably be one or two more added in but you get the jist

Gavlor

career_move wrote: »

Provisional summary:

Tom Brennan 5k Jan 1st

Raheny 5m Jan 28th

Meath HM Mar 3rd

Kclub 10k Apr 20th

Poulmucka 8k May 24th
Portumna HM Jun 14th

Daingean 5k Aug 2nd

Charleville HM Sept 23rd
Stook 10m Nov 16th

Dates may be slightly out and they'll probably be one or two more added in but you get the jist

No marathons?? How come?

career_move

Gavlor wrote: »

No marathons?? How come?

No marathons until I can beat Blocky's time in Cork => so I have a faster second marathon than him and a faster third marathon than him :D:D

Gavlor

career_move wrote: »

No marathons until I can beat Blocky's time in Cork => so I have a faster second marathon than him and a faster third marathon than him :D:D

Pillow talk?!

career_move

Gavlor wrote: »

Pillow talk?!

Most certainly not :rolleyes: Serious business this running. And when I have a faster third marathon than Blocky, I'll be going for a faster fourth marathon

AuldManKing

wow - the year planned out. Nice one. - Great races as well.

In 2 minds at this stage about the Tom Brennan - so I guess after this weekend, I'll see ya in November '14

jcsmum

I'm liking that tempo session! Very impressive missus!

Marthastew

career_move wrote: »

12m @ 9:00

Miles flew by on this one. I had run a mile and a bit when I decided to turn around and do the ring the other way .... variety being the spice of life and the usual mile spots were out of sync. I meant to change my watch to average pace so I could switch my brain off for a while but I only remembered when I was out on the road and I couldn't be bothered stopping but it was fine anyway.

Another month, another table:

Month|Miles
Jan|150.4
Feb|205
Mar|210
Apr|193
May|125.6
Jun|156
Jul|200
Aug|227
Sept|120
Oct|149
Nov|193
Total|1941

I'm just about to update my log and I see I'm only 7 miles behind you... I'll race you to 2,000:)
You probably have a head start..... I'm home with junior today, poor little man has a tummy bug:(

career_move

Marthastew wrote: »

I'm just about to update my log and I see I'm only 7 miles behind you... I'll race you to 2,000:)
You probably have a head start..... I'm home with junior today, poor little man has a tummy bug:(

It's on Hope junior is feeling better soon*
3m @ 10:30 today and this week is a step back week mileage wise so I'm guessing you'll have no bother catching up



*Keep those germs to yourself son

career_move

2m w/u - 9:01, 8:59

4 x 30sec - 60 sec walking rec
5:55, 5:32, 5:17, 5:21

2 x 1min - 60/90 sec rec
5:21, 5:31

2min - 90 sec rec
6:02

2 x 1min - 90 sec rec
5:43, 5:33

4 x 30sec = 60 sec rec
5:33, 5:34, 5:27, 5:24

2.3m c/d @ 8:58

This did not go quite to plan. I should have done the shorter reps a bit slower and the longer rep a bit faster. I kind of underestimated this session ..... I thought they would be just like longer strides
- aim to run the 30 sec and 1 min intervals at roughly 6-6.10 pace :eek:
- the 2 min interval to be run down in the 5.50-6 min area
- each rep is done with 60-90 sec recovery
- the shorter reps should be quite controlled
- legs will feel like jelly after the 2 min rep
- 1 min rep after this is vital you will be tired but focus on trying to stay relaxed

AuldManKing

I also find it difficult to do shorter 'bursts' slower than planned.

I done 4x200 the past 2 weeks - should have done then at about 40 secs - but was doing them virtually all out at 32 secs.

I'd love to know what was the planned adaptations (for doing them slower) and if the faster speed just wasted the session or gave a different stimulus???

career_move

AuldManKing wrote: »

I also find it difficult to do shorter 'bursts' slower than planned.

I done 4x200 the past 2 weeks - should have done then at about 40 secs - but was doing them virtually all out at 32 secs.

I'd love to know what was the planned adaptations (for doing them slower) and if the faster speed just wasted the session or gave a different stimulus???

Ya it's a bit of a balls if I've wasted that session by running too fast! I'm blaming my watch .... it told me I was at 6:20 pace at the end of the first 30 sec rep

belcarra

career_move wrote: »

Ya it's a bit of a balls if I've wasted that session by running too fast! I'm blaming my watch .... it told me I was at 6:20 pace at the end of the first 30 sec rep

That is one thing that you might need to take a look at...Such a short distance means the watch GPS is playing catchup throughout the whole rep.
Perhaps just know the distance and time allowed and try to match them up by perceived effort. I definitely wouldn't trust the GPS for such a short session.

career_move

belcarra wrote: »

That is one thing that you might need to take a look at...Such a short distance means the watch GPS is playing catchup throughout the whole rep.
Perhaps just know the distance and time allowed and try to match them up by perceived effort. I definitely wouldn't trust the GPS for such a short session.

Thanks. There wasn't a set distance so after the first rep I just went by effort. Feeling a bit better about it now

ecoli

Still a good session and exactly what we want. Takes a few times to get the hang of completely there is always a tendency to do the short ones a little too fast and the long ones a little too slow but I am happy with the effort here. Exactly what we want in the build up to the weekend so don't beat yourself up.

This session is psychological one more so than physiological

career_move

7m @ 9:07

with 6 x 100m strides (21,21,21,20,20,20)

My brain wasn't overly happy about having to tell my legs to do strides today! I shortened the distance a tiny bit compared to the usual so the times are faster today but the pace was about the same so pretty happy with the way my legs are feeling

career_move

Thursday:

Rest - lord was I bored! Gale force winds meant that for health and safety reasons we only took two horses on the gallops I wasn't working either so it was unfortunate that there happened to be half a box of Roses hanging around ..... which are sadly no longer with us

Friday:

3m @ 10:32

with 4 x 60m strides (all 15 sec)

Feeling pretty happy/quietly confident about tomorrow. I don't feel any pressure and I know I'm in good form so the plan is to just run a good hard race. While I will be wearing my watch, I won't be focused on what pace I'm running and the finishing time will look after itself

Tom Joad

Good luck with the race CM

belcarra

career_move wrote: »

Feeling pretty happy/quietly confident about tomorrow. I don't feel any pressure and I know I'm in good form so the plan is to just run a good hard race. While I will be wearing my watch, I won't be focused on what pace I'm running and the finishing time will look after itself

20:00:p

career_move

belcarra wrote: »

20:00:p

Ha

Mulberry

Best of luck, I have a feeling this will be a good race for you!

Beef

Best of luck tomorrow c_m. Lots of good work done recently!

DOCO12

Best of luck in the am CM , no bother to you

AuldManKing

19:xx
Make it so.

belcarra

How'd ya do? Is this part of the quest complete?

EDIT: Well done K, 19:49! Now to work on that sub 19...no rest!!;)

AuldManKing

Great running today Kate - well deserved - take the Garmin time!!

davemcmahon

Well done Kate. Well deserved with all the hard work you've put in.

pistol_75

Well done Kate. Nice to meet again before the race.

Dilbert75

belcarra wrote: »

EDIT: Well done K, 19:49!

Feckin delighted for you K - you SO deserve it.

pistol_75

belcarra wrote: »

How'd ya do? Is this part of the quest complete?

EDIT: Well done K, 19:49! Now to work on that sub 19...no rest!!;)

That's gun time so I reckon chip time was another 10 secs or so under.

career_move

Jingle bells 5k .... 19:38

The last race I won on career move (the horse ) was a hurdle in cork in 2011 when she went off at 16/1 and we beat Ruby Walsh on the favourite by a neck. I can remember the race as if it was yesterday and the days before the race stand out in my mind because of the complete conviction I had that we would win the race. She was in amazing form and the confidence I had that we would win was no different to going to the shop for the paper and knowing you were going to come home with the paper. I just knew
And today was a bit like that. I just knew I was going to run a good race and the time became irrelevant.
Slept badly last night so I didn't bother checking my RHR for fear of alarming myself but I was still well rested because I got the train up so no stress of trying to find parking etc. I walked from Heuston to the start and my legs were nicely loosened out and warmed up. Bumped into peter and marthastew while wandering around and then I headed off for a slow jog and some strides. The queues for the loos were massive so I found a large discreet tree and then back to the start with 10 min to go. Met RK who gave me a pep talk, jcsmum and peter and then we were off.
I have a tendency especially on the horses to just go to sleep in races which is why I made a big effort today to keep focused on trying to stay passing people and progressing through the race. I had a little peek at the watch as we passed the 1k marker (3:55) Was feeling strong and breathing was controlled but quite fast. Happy out with 6:22 for the first mile.
Second mile was tougher because of the wind but I was happy that I was running well and moving from group to group. I was glad when the watch peeped though ... only one more to go. 6:25 bit slower but still good.
Somewhere around this part of the race I passed MrStew and managed feeble wave of my hand. I could see MS about 30m up ahead and I was following her race path around the bends. Was still feeling good but I was unable to wind up the pace anymore for the finish. MrStew came powering past with about 500m to go and I could see MS up ahead fending off the challenge of another crusaders lady. 3rd mile 6:03. It felt like I had nothing left for the last 100 even though I was feeling pretty good but when I checked the garmin it was 5:48. Thrilled when I saw the finishing time
Met loads of boardsies who all ran super races - RK, raycun, MS, Mr Stew honorary boards member, statss, meno, Dr Q, RFR, pconn and blockic
Did a nice cool down jog with Dr Q and statss and then had a great afternoon in the pub