Best secondary captain in TNG and others for lower ranked officers

knucklehead6

I can understand Riker's reasoning, in that it's Mission > Ship > Crew.

You are ordered to carry out a mission. Those are your orders and it is your responsibility to carry them out.
They have priority.

You need your ship to carry out the mission, but the mission has priority over your ships safety. And don't say carrying a cargo of self sealing stem bolts. A frontline starfleet ship will not be required to do that... they will sometimes be required to get themselves into sticky situations, and extract themselves from same.

look at the battle to retake DS9? The Mission took Priority over the ships involved, and over the crews involved.

Your ships safety has priority over your crew.... In Spocks own words, the needs of the many, out weight the needs of the one, so if you need to order an officer or crewman to go do something that will likely result in their death, you do it. To save the ship. So the ship is able to carry out the mission.


Leaving Star trek, look at BSG... Galactica takes a hit to the port flight pod, fires and hull breaches, and they needed to vent the sections to save the ship... What was it tyrol said? 80 crew in that area??

helimachoptor

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I can understand Riker's reasoning, in that it's Mission > Ship > Crew.

You are ordered to carry out a mission. Those are your orders and it is your responsibility to carry them out.
They have priority.

You need your ship to carry out the mission, but the mission has priority over your ships safety. And don't say carrying a cargo of self sealing stem bolts. A frontline starfleet ship will not be required to do that... they will sometimes be required to get themselves into sticky situations, and extract themselves from same.

look at the battle to retake DS9? The Mission took Priority over the ships involved, and over the crews involved.

Your ships safety has priority over your crew.... In Spocks own words, the needs of the many, out weight the needs of the one, so if you need to order an officer or crewman to go do something that will likely result in their death, you do it. To save the ship. So the ship is able to carry out the mission.


Leaving Star trek, look at BSG... Galactica takes a hit to the port flight pod, fires and hull breaches, and they needed to vent the sections to save the ship... What was it tyrol said? 80 crew in that area??

I think that battle and in general the major Dominion engagements there was an expectation that a lot of lives will be lost (by everyone) but if people dont die then the Fed will lose the war and ultimately a lot more people will die.

Very interesting aspect of command tbh.

On a more relevant note, lets say your a Captain/Lt in Afghan or wehere ever. Your team is pinned down by enemy fire. Your only option is to order the machine gunner and his mate to break cover to higher ground to provide covering fire while you extract.

You know that A) you will all most likely die if you dont order him (and he successfully gets to higher ground that if you order him to do it, he has a very good chance of taking a bullet.

What do you do?
Obviously option B is the answer, the CO will know it, the machine gunner will know it and everyone is in the squad will know it.
But thats what makes them soldiers..

knucklehead6

helimachoptor wrote: »

I think that battle and in general the major Dominion engagements there was an expectation that a lot of lives will be lost (by everyone) but if people dont die then the Fed will lose the war and ultimately a lot more people will die.

Very interesting aspect of command tbh.

On a more relevant note, lets say your a Captain/Lt in Afghan or wehere ever. Your team is pinned down by enemy fire. Your only option is to order the machine gunner and his mate to break cover to higher ground to provide covering fire while you extract.

You know that A) you will all most likely die if you dont order him (and he successfully gets to higher ground that if you order him to do it, he has a very good chance of taking a bullet.

What do you do?
Obviously option B is the answer, the CO will know it, the machine gunner will know it and everyone is in the squad will know it.
But thats what makes them soldiers..

That's what makes them an officer/commander.

I don't know if that still holds true in Real Life, maybe we could ask over on the Mil forum. Remember the film K-19? That is based on a true story. The captain DID order his men into the reactor chamber, to save the ship.

I can easily see it holding true in the Trek Universe though.

nyarlothothep

I can see how the mission can take priority over the ship and crew in certain situations but...DS9 took trek in certain directions which either added to its depth or really compromised its vision depending on your perception. For example TNG was about how humanity had evolved into a more benevolent species above a simplistic militaristic/industrial complex culture. However DS9 showed that it was a sham to some extent, with organisations like Section 31, indicating that humanity had not evolved beyond it's militaristic/the ends justify the means attitude. For me, I felt the idea that the Dominion war forcing star fleet to make decisions it would otherwise not for its very survival was fine. However Section 31 ruined the premise/universe of starfleet a bit by basically inferring that humanity had never really progressed from the kind of organisations and institutions that were responsible for world war 3 and countless atrocities all in the name of the nation/security/[insert ideology here] etc .

Starfleet wasn't really a military service, it was primarily a scientific/exploratory organisation with militaristic elements inherited from the old navies of past ages, for the purposes of defence. In a circuitous way, I would say that privileging the mission in all cases is not desirable if your CO is corrupt or an idiot, and it would appear, at least with respect to TNG that the admiralty was full of them. That's what I really liked about TNG, Picard faced with the ethical dilemma of wiping out the borg. They transformed him, removed bits of his personality piece by piece and yet, as an individual capable of self reflection and deep thought, he decided that it was unethical to cause their extinction. That is what TNG was about, how humans could transcend petty tribal hatreds, how humans like Picard could live up to the fullest potential of their humanity by being capable of thought not influenced by fear or hatred but by rationality and ethical behaviour which are so lacking in our own time. Or what about when an admiral want to take Lol from Data. Picard was the man for telling him to fck off.

So yeah following orders to seal off a warp core fine, following them also to provide a last line of defence against a borg attack, also fine, following them just because you've been told to as in any contemporary military organisation, not good. I remember that DS9 episode with the ship full of cadets worshipping their cadet captain and talking about the importance of the team, and everything going pear shaped for them. And the episode basically ends with Nog reiterating the whole cultish team argument. Bah! They should have been thrown in the brig or made to repeat star fleet academy all over again at the end like what happened to Wesley Crusher over that manouvre. The whole following orders sir and for the team no matter what mentality is one that basically validates Q's argument about humanity being a greviously savage child race. One which Picard disproved throughout the course of TNG, although that disproval was subsequently undermined.

knucklehead6

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I can see how the mission can take priority over the ship and crew in certain situations but...DS9 took trek in certain directions which either added to its depth or really compromised its vision depending on your perception. For example TNG was about how humanity had evolved into a more benevolent species above a simplistic militaristic/industrial complex culture. However DS9 showed that it was a sham to some extent, with organisations like Section 31, indicating that humanity had not evolved beyond it's militaristic/the ends justify the means attitude. For me, I felt the idea that the Dominion war forcing star fleet to make decisions it would otherwise not for its very survival was fine. However Section 31 ruined the premise/universe of starfleet a bit by basically inferring that humanity had never really progressed from the kind of organisations and institutions that were responsible for world war 3 and countless atrocities all in the name of the nation/security/[insert ideology here] etc .

Starfleet wasn't really a military service, it was primarily a scientific/exploratory organisation with militaristic elements inherited from the old navies of past ages, for the purposes of defence. In a circuitous way, I would say that privileging the mission in all cases is not desirable if your CO is corrupt or an idiot, and it would appear, at least with respect to TNG that the admiralty was full of them. That's what I really liked about TNG, Picard faced with the ethical dilemma of wiping out the borg. They transformed him, removed bits of his personality piece by piece and yet, as an individual capable of self reflection and deep thought, he decided that it was unethical to cause their extinction. That is what TNG was about, how humans could transcend petty tribal hatreds, how humans like Picard could live up to the fullest potential of their humanity by being capable of thought not influenced by fear or hatred but by rationality and ethical behaviour which are so lacking in our own time. Or what about when an admiral want to take Lol from Data. Picard was the man for telling him to fck off.

So yeah following orders to seal off a warp core fine, following them also to provide a last line of defence against a borg attack, also fine, following them just because you've been told to as in any contemporary military organisation, not good. I remember that DS9 episode with the ship full of cadets worshipping their cadet captain and talking about the importance of the team, and everything going pear shaped for them. And the episode basically ends with Nog reiterating the whole cultish team argument. Bah! They should have been thrown in the brig or made to repeat star fleet academy all over again at the end like what happened to Wesley Crusher over that manouvre. The whole following orders sir and for the team no matter what mentality is one that basically validates Q's argument about humanity being a greviously savage child race. One which Picard disproved throughout the course of TNG, although that disproval was subsequently undermined.

I think the "i was following orders" defence was pretty much ripped up and thrown out the window during the Nuremberg and Tokyo Trials.

As far as i know, now the person/officer receiving the order has to make the call as to whether or not it is an ethical order.


And remember, Riker relieved Picard of command in that episode where it was a duplicate Picard that arrived back to the Enterprise, and had put the ship into jeopardy deliberately by attempting to pass through 2 stars gravity wells or something like that....

nyarlothothep

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I think the "i was following orders" defence was pretty much ripped up and thrown out the window during the Nuremberg and Tokyo Trials.

As far as i know, now the person/officer receiving the order has to make the call as to whether or not it is an ethical order.


And remember, Riker relieved Picard of command in that episode where it was a duplicate Picard that arrived back to the Enterprise, and had put the ship into jeopardy deliberately by attempting to pass through 2 stars gravity wells or something like that....

It still happens though in modern military institutions all over the world today. Yeah, I was wondering why the crew didn't relieve Picard of command in the Farpoint timeline in AGT, when he had first met them and was spacing out/talking to himself and giving what seemed to them, bizarre nonsensical orders, although I'll attribute that to Q's influence.

SarahBM

I think Tuvok would make a good captain, but only if he had a sufficiently emotional 2nd in command though. He could be "too" logical if you know what I mean.

could you imagine if Spock had been made Captain instead of Kirk (Star Trek movie)

Were there any Vulcan captains?

I would like to have seen a scenario where the captain and commander were both female too. might have been interesting.

Myrddin

SarahBM wrote: »

I think Tuvok would make a good captain, but only if he had a sufficiently emotional 2nd in command though. He could be "too" logical if you know what I mean.

could you imagine if Spock had been made Captain instead of Kirk (Star Trek movie)

Were there any Vulcan captains?

I would like to have seen a scenario where the captain and commander were both female too. might have been interesting.

Tuvok was captain of Voyager for about six weeks or so, when Janeway & Chakotay contracted a virus & had to stay on a certain planet to live. Not a bad episode too, & his lack of emotion was really starting to hurt morale, until Kes sorted him out

IvySlayer

There was also the Vulcan captain Sisko hated. Solok.

He captains an all Vulcan ship, which is surely against the principles of Starfleet?

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

He captains an all Vulcan ship, which is surely against the principles of Starfleet?

Definitely, I'd say they only wrote that in so that the baseball team would be all Vulcan

knucklehead6

EnterNow wrote: »

Definitely, I'd say they only wrote that in so that the baseball team would be all Vulcan

Was there not an All Vulcan crew in TOS too? Think their ship was destroyed and spock felt it somehow...? Or am i mixing up my stars? (wars/trek)

Myrddin

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Was there not an All Vulcan crew in TOS too? Think their ship was destroyed and spock felt it somehow...? Or am i mixing up my stars? (wars/trek)

Possibly, TOS is my weak area. Was it a Vulcan command ship though or a Starfleet ship?

IvySlayer

EnterNow wrote: »

Definitely, I'd say they only wrote that in so that the baseball team would be all Vulcan

DEATH TO THE OPPOSITION

Find him and KILL HIM!!

Oh Worf

knucklehead6

EnterNow wrote: »

Possibly, TOS is my weak area. Was it a Vulcan command ship though or a Starfleet ship?

I'm not the strongest there either but i'm reasonably certain that it was a Starfleet ship.

knucklehead6

USS Intrepid, from episode The Immunity Syndrome

Myrddin

knucklehead6 wrote: »

USS Intrepid, from episode The Immunity Syndrome

An all vulcan crew? Mad, seems very un-starfleet & discriminatory?