snow preparation

ednwireland

Larbre34 wrote: »

H
1. Good all round tyres, winter tyres on a standard car are a false economy -

maybe round dublin, on the backroads of donegal (when the roads are solid packed snow) i beg to differ

gbee

ednwireland wrote: »

maybe round dublin, on the backroads of donegal (when the roads are solid packed snow) i beg to differ

When you need them, winter tyres are more than worth the effort. As mentioned they will wear faster if not actually used in winter conditions.

wexie

ednwireland wrote: »

maybe round dublin, on the backroads of donegal (when the roads are solid packed snow) i beg to differ

I live 4 miles (uphill) from the nearest road that gets any form of treatment, somehow I don't think all-season tires would see me safe home if we get any significant snow.

Normally I carry everything I can think of I might need to walk the last 4 miles, plus a good assortment of recovery equipment in case I come across people stuck in ditch/snowbank etc.

Tabnabs

jeltz wrote: »

That is a myth.

They are designed for places like the alps in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Czech Republic, Italy etc where temperatures typically fluctuate between +20C and -5C before settling down to very cold when winter takes hold, and the same again in reverse during spring.

I must pass on your advice to the Norwegian Automobile Assoc. (NAF). They generally come out in late spring every year reminding/advising motorists to take off winter tyres due to dangers of driving with them in summer conditions.

wexie

Tabnabs wrote: »

I must pass on your advice to the Norwegian Automobile Assoc. (NAF). They generally come out in late spring every year reminding/advising motorists to take off winter tyres due to dangers of driving with them in summer conditions.

Pffft....Norwegians....what could they possibly know about driving in harsh conditions....

Apparently they (Scandinavian auto associations and Roads and Safety Authority) also recently came out with a statement to ignore the new (Nov 1st) EU tire rating with regards to winter tires. Apparently they have nothing to do with safety but environment and the highest rated tires can be near lethal on snow/ice.

I'll try to get a link (heard from friend in Norway) but it may well be in Norwegian

jeltz

Tabnabs wrote: »

I must pass on your advice to the Norwegian Automobile Assoc. (NAF). They generally come out in late spring every year reminding/advising motorists to take off winter tyres due to dangers of driving with them in summer conditions.

They use nordic grade tyres in Scandinavia and they are dangerous above zero and especially when it is wet above zero.

They are NOT designed for the conditions I described in my post, read it again, European winter tyres are specifically designed for wide temperature fluctuations in autumn and spring and the Foen effect during winter, nordic tyres are designed for months of severe intense cold to -50C and cannot be made with a wide enough temperature range compound to tolerate above zero C.

Studded nordic tyres are ideal for Scandinavia as most roads are graded except in towns. A suitable tyre for there is NOT suitable for here or central Europe.

DO NOT EVER use their type of tyre here, they usually have ice, blizzard, arctic, nordic or similar in the tyre name. They are occasionally sold on ebay as part worns and they are dangerous enough here when new let alone when worn with the amount of wet we have here.

jeltz

wexie wrote: »

I live 4 miles (uphill) from the nearest road that gets any form of treatment, somehow I don't think all-season tires would see me safe home if we get any significant snow.

The problem is that there are too many people who stand to gain from recommending winter tyres.


Selling winter tyres, charging for a change over in autumn, charging for a change over in spring, often charging for them to stay in a 'tyre hotel' over summer and doubtless trying to upsell on winter tyres and the latest 'must have' summer tyres.

All of that adds up to a substantial amount of money, several times more than the cost of a set of all season tyres. They know that so they continue to push winter tyres in the hope of getting as much money out of the unaware while they can.

Consider that the all season tyres I use year round Hankook Optimo 4S are sold in Canada as an all year round tyre in competition with a Nokian all year round tyre (Nokian are a world leading manufcturer of winter tyres in Finland). Think about the winter conditions in Canada. Our winter conditions are not in a billion years going to be anything like what Canadian winter conditions are like. So if my tyres are suitable for use all year round in Canada, and they also have hotter summer temperatures than here, then it is quite clear that the tyres are more than good enough by a huge margin in winter here.


Think about it.


No one really needs winter tyres in this country. But enough people make easy money out of peoples lack of knowledge that they are going to keep pushing them as much as they can.


Excellent explanatory video ('all season' tyre in Europe = 'all weather' tyre in North America; 'all season' in North America = normal tyres here, it is easy to get confused) http://www.hankooktire.ca/compmed/News_View.aspx?pageNum=5&subNum=4&ChildNum=1&Seq=364

Brief written explanation (again 'all season' tyre in Europe = 'all weather' tyre in North America; 'all season' in North America = normal tyres here, it is easy to get confused) http://www.ctvnews.ca/pat-foran-is-the-new-winter-tire-right-for-you-1.568328

Reviews by Canadians, remember their winter conditions are many times worse than ours with months of snow and ice http://tires.canadiantire.ca/en/tires/all-weather-tires/product/0041732P/hankook-optimo-4s/


Note the review that says:

"if you want a winter tire then buy a winter tire. The reviews speak for themselves. You can tell the fluffy ones written by the tire manufacturer / store. The internet is great for researching everything. No tread life rating is given? No more lies please."

and recall how much money some people will loose if potential customers realize they can save money and get the same performance. In a Canadian winter, remember, not our pathetic joke of a winter.

wexie

jeltz wrote: »

No one really needs winter tyres in this country.

I'm guessing you don't live in rural Ireland?

I lived in Canada (Northern Quebec) for several years so I'm quite well aware of what the conditions can be like. I think you might have a bit of a point, however you're forgetting to mention that in places like Canada and Norway the local authorities are actually prepared and equipped to keep the roads in reasonable condition. Where I lived as soon as the snow started coming down you'd see the snowplows out and the local councils would pay private individuals with pickups and snowplows a mileage rate to keep the smaller roads open. I guess if people suggested that here there'd be a big hooha about liabillity and insurance, health and safety etc. etc.

If I need to drive uphill on a dodgy (in the best of conditions) road covered in well over a foot of snow with a layer of ice underneath (like happened in 2010) I want to know I'll be able to make it up the hill safely and down again as well.

For what it's worth I don't actually use winter tires, I have BF Goodrich AT's which have been brilliant in the snow. And if things get really bad again I'll drive something with a bit more oomph and mud/snow terrain tires.

I guess you could say that whether or not you need winter tires will largely depend on where you're going to be doing your driving. Live and work in Dublin (city) then you might well be able to get away with decent all season tires.

Live in the back of Ballybeyond where the best you can hope for is the local farmer heading out to spread some dirt (when they feel like it) you better be prepared to either stay in or stick some decent boots on the car.

I prefer to be one of the people that are prepared to look after themselves rather than bitch and moan that the authorities can't keep the roads clear (which they won't be able to if we get a repeat of 2010). I remember seeing some eejit on the news bitching that the roads were a disgrace, there was footage of a Range Rover slipping and sliding along the quays I think. What nobody mentioned that the RR had nice big fancy 22 or 24 inch rims with low profile road tires....

HemlockOption

NegativeCreep wrote: »

I've fallen so many times it's not even funny anymore! I'm thinking of wearing those spike things that go on over your shoe. Only problem is I feel like a spa wearing them I'm also gonna raise the height of my dog's kennel because I shudder at the thought of her getting snowed in

Why don't you just let the poor dog into the house? How can you sleep at night knowing that your dog is outside in the snow and freezing cold? Seriously.....

wexie

HemlockOption wrote: »

Why don't you just let the poor dog into the house? How can you sleep at night knowing that your dog is outside in the snow and freezing cold? Seriously.....

Depends on what kind of dog it is, don't forget some dogs would find freezing cold a lot more comfortable than a balmy 15 degrees.

My dog (Newfoundland) used to refuse to come inside with any kind of snow on the ground and we'd have to drag her indoors nearly when we wanted to go to bed. Give a nice sunny day and 20 degrees though she'd be miserable outside and would find the coldest tiles in the house to lie down on.

Maybe he has a Malamute or a Husky (or St. Bernard, Bernese Mountain dog, Pyrenean mountain dog etc.etc.) , they'd probably much prefer to be out in the cold then in front of what we think is a nice cosy fire.

Tactical

wexie wrote: »

Normally I carry everything I can think of I might need to walk the last 4 miles, plus a good assortment of recovery equipment in case I come across people stuck in ditch/snowbank etc.

Its always nice to help people out.

I generally find people to be really friendly and much more approachable during severe weather.

TURRICAN

Does anybody use snow chains as an alternative to "snow tyres".
Cheaper and more practical in our climate.

gbee

TURRICAN wrote: »

Does anybody use snow chains as an alternative to "snow tyres". Cheaper and more practical in our climate.

For that matter, snow socks might even be handier ~ no idea on price and they will wear out faster than chains but worth a looksee maybe.

jeltz

wexie wrote: »

I'm guessing you don't live in rural Ireland?

I do, that is why I have them. That is why our friends and family in rural areas have them. Down is characterized by rolling small hills (drumlins) and large hills and mountains. The people we know in the city don't have them. People who live in cities can often get away with not having them. If I only drove around cities I most likely wouldn't have got them.

wexie wrote: »

I lived in Canada (Northern Quebec) for several years so I'm quite well aware of what the conditions can be like. I think you might have a bit of a point, however you're forgetting to mention that in places like Canada and Norway the local authorities are actually prepared and equipped to keep the roads in reasonable condition.

It depends entirely where you live. The road networks in Scandinavia and the Alps are far to big to cover, there are way too many twisty country roads. No council could ever afford to clear roads in a timely fashion or they would be bankrupt. You hear no end of complaints in those countries all winter long about the services being slow, areas being missed, where to prioritize over elsewhere, this clinic not done, too slow to clear that hospital, a house on their street burnt down because some cretin had their car parked in the wrong place and the fire engine could not get past the mounds of hard frozen snow etc etc. The same long list of complaints every year.

Exactly the same as here.

wexie wrote: »

Where I lived (in Quebec) as soon as the snow started coming down you'd see the snowplows out and the local councils would pay private individuals with pickups and snowplows a mileage rate to keep the smaller roads open. I guess if people suggested that here there'd be a big hooha about liabillity and insurance, health and safety etc. etc.

They have that scheme in the UK. In UK including NI there are private gritting and ploughing contractors on top of the council and highways agencies ploughing and gritting teams. In UK including NI there are schemes involving farmers paid to clear rural roads around them but is often not fast enough because they have to put their livestock etc first (as they should).

wexie wrote: »

If I need to drive uphill on a dodgy (in the best of conditions) road covered in well over a foot of snow with a layer of ice underneath (like happened in 2010) I want to know I'll be able to make it up the hill safely and down again as well.

I have done exactly that, driven to the limits of clearance with the tyres. Like a snow plough. If you watched the video and looked at the Hankook range of winter tyres you will realize the Hankook Optimo 4S all season tyre with the winter tyre mark it is a winter tyre pattern with winter tyre sipes. It is only the compound that is different.

In the depth of snow up to the limit of clearance it is the tread pattern that is important, to bite into the snow. Once you get to the clearance limit you run a very high risk that your bumper is likely to be embedded in a snow bank formed where there is an invisible dip in the road and then you could be in real danger. With these tyres and a bit of digging you should be able to reverse out as they have enough traction.

They also have great traction on ice, I did three point turns and reverse park on an ice covered slope. I need to get up and reverse down a polished ice covered slope to get to the road from my house anyway.

I have them so I can drive up and down hills and mountains safely when they are snow covered, icy and uncleared. That is why some of our friends have them. They would not get up their hills to their houses at all let alone safely.

I have had no problem driving over hills on uncleared snow covered narrow rural back roads in -15C at night.

That is still nothing like Canadian conditions.

wexie wrote: »

For what it's worth I don't actually use winter tires, I have BF Goodrich AT's which have been brilliant in the snow. And if things get really bad again I'll drive something with a bit more oomph and mud/snow terrain tires.

They are M+S marked tyres and so legal for countries where winter tyres are mandatory with fines and points on your licence if you don't have them. Mytires says they have the winter tyre mark. They have an exceptionally aggressive tread and are intended for considerable off road use in severe conditions. They are not a normal tyre that almost everyone would use on their car.

wexie wrote: »

I guess you could say that whether or not you need winter tires will largely depend on where you're going to be doing your driving. Live and work in Dublin (city) then you might well be able to get away with decent all season tires.

Live in the back of Ballybeyond where the best you can hope for is the local farmer heading out to spread some dirt (when they feel like it) you better be prepared to either stay in or stick some decent boots on the car.

I have them because I drive around 'Ballybeyonds'!

I have driven up and down snow covered steep hill and mountain roads as if they were dry roads. Apart from the bumps caused by hard lumps of refozen snow. I have demonstrated emergency stops on snow covered roads from 50mph and it stopped absolutely straight without any abs kicking in, as if it was an emergency stop on a damp road.

If that is not a decent safety margin what is?!

The farmers schemes in UK and NI are to plough, rather than grit (bar an odd exception)

wexie wrote: »

I prefer to be one of the people that are prepared to look after themselves rather than bitch and moan that the authorities can't keep the roads clear (which they won't be able to if we get a repeat of 2010). I remember seeing some eejit on the news bitching that the roads were a disgrace, there was footage of a Range Rover slipping and sliding along the quays I think. What nobody mentioned that the RR had nice big fancy 22 or 24 inch rims with low profile road tires....

Absolutely. They obviously have no idea how much it costs. The councils would be bankrupt as they would be in Scandinavia and the alps if they listened to every a-hole who wanted the tiniest path with 2cm of snow treated with a snow blower.

RR with such tyres are an accident waiting to happen. They're the last thing I want to see on snow covered roads and you can guarantee the driver thinks they are invincible! :mad:

SnowDrifts

gbee wrote: »

For that matter, snow socks might even be handier ~ no idea on price and they will wear out faster than chains but worth a looksee maybe.

Snow socks are really very good..but...ONLY on roads with a thick covering of snow. If you drive with them on roads that are patchy or on a treated tarmac road, the abrasiveness of tarmac will rip them to shreds.

I saw people driving on the m50 with them on back in 2010 and then they would bitch that they were no good and fall apart to shreds. They really should only be used as a temporary/ emergency solution.

TURRICAN

gbee wrote: »

For that matter, snow socks might even be handier ~ no idea on price and they will wear out faster than chains but worth a looksee maybe

I've no idea myself on price myself.

I've seen chains work on my fathers fiat ritmo work back in the 80s and they did a great job.
Good memories of snow there, I was about 5 or 6 at the time and I was nearly invisible it was so deep:)

Edit

WOOPS

jeltz

TURRICAN wrote: »

For that matter, snow socks might even be handier ~ no idea on price and they will wear out faster than chains but worth a looksee maybe

I've no idea myself on price myself.

I've seen chains work on my fathers fiat ritmo work back in the 80s and they did a great job.
Good memories of snow there, I was about 5 or 6 at the time and I was nearly invisible it was so deep:)

Edit

WOOPS

Chains are way better.

You can drive indefinitely on them. SnowDrifts is right, the snow socks will rip apart after a few miles on bare tarmac. Don't care about the road surface worry more about getting around safely. Make sure the chains clear the wheel arch on full lock or they will make a terrifying sound and put massive scratches in it.

You will need leather palm work gloves or you could rip your hands installing them.

Look at the traction you get with chains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3isgfI1aGj8

TURRICAN

jeltz wrote: »

Chains are way better.

You can drive indefinitely on them. SnowDrifts is right, the snow socks will rip apart after a few miles on bare tarmac. Don't care about the road surface worry more about getting around safely. Make sure the chains clear the wheel arch on full lock or they will make a terrifying sound and put massive scratches in it.

You will need leather palm work gloves or you could rip your hands installing them.

Look at the traction you get with chains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3isgfI1aGj8

I think Aldi had them last year for €30 or €40.
Much cheaper than tyres and its all about keeping costs down these days.
It is in my house anyway:(

twistedbrains

dont worry about buying anything the army will drive miles to work in their own cars pick up army nissian and then drive you to work its great they done it 2 years ago

jeltz

TURRICAN wrote: »

I think Aldi had them last year for €30 or €40.
Much cheaper than tyres and its all about keeping costs down these days.
It is in my house anyway

It is worth spending a little extra to get self tensioning ones. They are tough steel and last for decades and you can easily sell them on if you get a new car with a different tyre size. It is a false economy to get the basic ones, unless the ones Aldi have are self tensioning.

Here is an example of what I mean, that even SWMBO could fit. You can see it adjusts itself when you drive off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeezmxfrfTY

I have no idea why anyone would want to fiddle about stopping and readjusting and rechecking the cheap ones. That is annoying on the first use let alone the twentieth. With the self adjusters you just put it on and drive off slowly for a moment to give it a chance to adjust itself.

M.T. Cranium

A few lucky (?) souls who live well up above 300m might not have long to wait as the snow line could be in sight of lowland dwellers over the weekend and Monday, and some snow could fall a bit lower down towards the end of the slow-moving event. Sleety rain more likely where most people live though.

jeltz

gbee wrote: »

When you need them, winter tyres are more than worth the effort. As mentioned they will wear faster if not actually used in winter conditions.

It is a myth that they will wear faster.

Friends of ours have used winter tyres all year round on an AWD car without any greater wear than their previous summer tyres.

Saftey is far more important than worrying about wear.

Continental tyres said that people should choose tyres for the worst conditions they face over the course of a year. Although obviously all season tyres are more suited to all year use, Continental said that meant their winter tyres could be used all year round without any problems.

Continental are one of the biggest tyre manufactures in the world with many award winning best in class tyres of all types. They are not talking nonsense!

If you don't believe me go ask them!

jeltz

M.T. Cranium wrote: »

A few lucky (?) souls who live well up above 300m might not have long to wait as the snow line could be in sight . . .

I can assure you they are well used to it, it is the sun they worry about not seeing!


Where is he hiding?

gbee

Some great advice in this thread, and thanks to a few motor forum regulars too.

That is all, says he who has new summer tyres on his jeep and very worn M&S on the rear ~ but I had WANTED to fit winter tyres, but illness and finance stepped in ~ still want snow though ~ bring it one ")

jeltz

This is where all season and winter tyres are tested in Finland close to the arctic circle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhb6snc4gyU

I think this demonstrates that all season tyres are more than good enough for winter in this country.

Pa ElGrande

Winter driving Coping with cold, snow and ice -> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/seasonal/winter_motoring.html

Winter Car Preparation -> http://www.wheelsforwomen.ie/index.php/winter-car-preparation/

AA IE: Driving and home care advice for the winter -> http://www.aaireland.ie/AA/Winter-Zone.aspx
AA IE: Think safety and prep your car for winter now -> http://www.aaireland.ie/AA/Ezine/AA-Ezine-October-2012/Think-safety-and-prep-your-car-for-winter-now.aspx

Preparing Your Mobile Home for Winter -> http://kenneallyholidayhomes.ie/preparing-your-mobile-home-for-winter/

Winter preparation advice from Mountain Rescue in Wicklow -> http://www.mountainrescue.ie/node/514

Winter weather Scotland -> http://www.readyscotland.org/are-you-ready/winter-weather/

Rules when driving in adverse weather conditions -> https://www.gov.uk/driving-adverse-weather-conditions-226-to-237

Winter Driving -> http://www.travelers.ie/iwcm/Ireland/News/Documents/WinterDrivingTips.pdf

Advice for road users in ice or snow conditions -> http://www.iami.ie/DriverTraining/WinterDriving.aspx

How to deal with a frozen handbrake -> http://www.octane.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=33677


PS. Not mentioned in the tips above don't follow your satellite navigation over the mountains in snow.

gbee

jeltz wrote: »

It is a myth that they will wear faster.

As you know from reading this thread, you cannot say this statement without qualification. Generally they do ~ but read the whole thread

Me on an SUV with the emphasis on sport, some of a set of BF Goodrich ALL Terrain lasted 20,000 miles

Though they took me over Nad in 2010 in three feet of snow, pulled me out of the sea up to the axle in quicksand and climbed St Patrick's Hill on ice, they were heavy on the front end, about €600 a year, heavy on diesel, about 22mph against 30mph and physically heavy on steering.

They also wore like tissue paper on hot summer days.

I still think they are great tyres and I owe my van and possibly even my life to them.

jeltz

I was speaking of normal passenger cars.

SUVs are heavier, though I don't know how much it must be a fair bit. I heard that some are more than twice as heavy as a supermini! I doubt you could get all season tyres that big, they should wear less but they are intended for road use with the size of car most people will drive. SUVs need specialist tyres so you may be stuck with BF Goodrich.

Good to hear they kept you safe that is what it is all about in the end.

Sponge Bob

I just got the snowshield up in Galway so PM me in feb to remind me to take it down again

Odelay

jeltz wrote: »

Chains are way better.

You can drive indefinitely on them. SnowDrifts is right, the snow socks will rip apart after a few miles on bare tarmac. Don't care about the road surface worry more about getting around safely. Make sure the chains clear the wheel arch on full lock or they will make a terrifying sound and put massive scratches in it.

You will need leather palm work gloves or you could rip your hands installing them.

Look at the traction you get with chains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3isgfI1aGj8

Don't agree, no need for them and they do cause damage to the road surface. you might no care about damaging the road surface but I do, I have to drive on it. If you're driving with them on bare tarmac then you should not be using them. Snow socks on snow or winter tires. Best advice take it easy, avoid travelling and plan to stop at junctions before you arrive there. Easier said than done but can be done.