Prison officer killed in suspect dissident ambush

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Havent watched the clip yet asmI'm on my mobile but Frazer is generally a nasty little bigot and in his description he says that the republicans marched in Dublin, that was nothing to do with the PO being killed but Marian Price - it wasnt just republicans you had people from the ULA there too

The parade he videos is not the one in Dublin

GRMA

junder wrote: »

The parade he videos is not the one in Dublin

look at the video description.

Ash.J.Williams

GRMA wrote: »

Thankfully Colin Duffy has been unconditionally released, hopefully they can find the real killers now

Did Colin not tell them?

Ash.J.Williams

Interesting this is what the judge concluded from the massereen shooting:

"I consider that there is insufficient evidence to satisfy me beyond reasonable doubt that, whatever Duffy may have done when he wore the latex glove or touched the seatbelt buckle, meant that he was preparing the car in some way for this murderous attack. And I therefore find him not guilty," the judge said. He said the prosecution had failed to link Duffy to the murder plot.

Chuck Stone

First, let me say that I find what was said to WF extremely distasteful especially when they brought up his Father and Mr Black.

With that said what the hell was WF expecting pulling up at a Republican demonstration illegal or otherwise? Why couldn't he just ring the PSNI and make a complaint and let the civil authorities deal with it?

He's a world class ****-stirrer is Willie.

FTA69

junder wrote: »

Read eamon Collins books 'killing rage' former intelligence officer for the Tyrone brigade of the IRA ( now dead at the hands of his former colleagues) gives a good account of how targets where selected and how intelligence was gathered before the kill was made

Collins was from Newry, not Tyrone. Also your attempts to portray this as a sectarian killing are farcical, they target members of the army, police etc on the basis they believe they are enforcing an occupation. By your logic they are sectarian against Catholics due to the fact they killed Ronan Kerr and targeted Peader Heffron.

junder

FTA69 wrote: »

Collins was from Newry, not Tyrone. Also your attempts to portray this as a sectarian killing are farcical, they target members of the army, police etc on the basis they believe they are enforcing an occupation. By your logic they are sectarian against Catholics due to the fact they killed Ronan Kerr and targeted Peader Heffron.

Can you prove it was'nt sectarain? Or is your proof only that they previously killed catholic police officers. Seems this entire thread is proof of why this prison officer made such a good target, since on the one hand, killing a Protestant is really going to provoke the loyalist community, but because he is a prison officer means people such as yourself can argue that he was killed just because of his job. Of course it's the same argument the provies used when they were killing members of my community before.
End of the day you know and I know and yes even the dissidents know that unless they escalate the conflict to a point which brings the army back onto the streets, they are finished.

.jacksparrow.

junder wrote: »

Can you prove it was'nt sectarain? Or is your proof only that they previously killed catholic police officers. Seems this entire thread is proof of why this prison officer made such a good target, since on the one hand, killing a Protestant is really going to provoke the loyalist community, but because he is a prison officer means people such as yourself can argue that he was killed just because of his job. Of course it's the same argument the provies used when they were killing members of my community before.
End of the day you know and I know and yes even the dissidents know that unless they escalate the conflict to a point which brings the army back onto the streets, they are finished.

I disagree with this theory,the dissidents are happy enough to pull off this once in a while to show normalisation isn't happening.they know too well they can't pull off a campaign now like the provos,but they seem happy to let people know there is still resistance however small it is.

FTA69

Members of your community were also armed members of the crown forces, whether you like it or not they shot UDR men and police officers because they were part of armed wings of the British state. They shot plenty of Catholic ones too. By all means criticise this killing, but don't delude yourself that it occurred solely because the man was a Protestant.

junder

FTA69 wrote: »

Members of your community were also armed members of the crown forces, whether you like it or not they shot UDR men and police officers because they were part of armed wings of the British state. They shot plenty of Catholic ones too. By all means criticise this killing, but don't delude yourself that it occurred solely because the man was a Protestant.

And that in a nut shell is why mr black made such a good target, because that's the argument that will always be rolled out be republicans. A direct provocation to the loyalist community and still able to justify it as an attack on the 'British state'

I don't have the link so I will have to post the entire articule. Another interesting analysis as to why mr black was killed

ANALYSIS: Targeting of an Orangeman


David Black was gunned down as he drove to work at the high security Maghaberry prison in Co Antrim (PSNI/PA)



By BEN LOWRY



IN targeting a prison officer who was both an Orangeman and who was in the service at the time of the hunger strikes, dissidents appear to be trying to do two things.
First, they have murdered someone whom they think will receive less sympathy among not only republicans, but moderate Irish nationalists.
This is primarily because of Mr Black’s Orange membership.
But they are also hoping that moderate nationalists will feel that anyone who served during the hunger strikes is tainted.
The calculated killing of Mr Black highlights the fact that there are members of the Prison Service who have decades of service, which is much less likely in the PSNI, after the large-scale Patten redundancies.
It fits the dissident narrative that Northern Ireland is unreformed, and indeed irreformable, despite what Sinn Fein would say.
Second, the murder of an Orangeman is closely linked to another targeting strategy that seeks the same outcome, but from the opposite direction: the killing of Catholic security force members. They have murdered two Catholic PSNI officers – Stephen Carroll and Ronan Kerr – and maimed a third – Peadar Heffron.
But in the case of Kerr and Heffron, who were prominent GAA players, they seemed to target PSNI officers who are not merely Catholic, but immersed in Gaelic culture.
By doing so, dissident terrorists hope to scare off potential security force recruits who have such a background.
If that intimidation succeeds, the dissidents will be able to say that the police and Army are made up of Protestant-dominated ‘securocrats’ – servants of what republicans would call the Orange State.
Another not-so-subtle message of this murder, which seems the work of experienced assassins, is that the Prison Service has not been transformed in the way that the RUC, and its successor the PSNI, were transformed by redundancies and 50-50 recruitment.

.jacksparrow.

junder wrote: »

And that in a nut shell is why mr black made such a good target, because that's the argument that will always be rolled out be republicans. A direct provocation to the loyalist community and still able to justify it as an attack on the 'British state'

I don't have the link so I will have to post the entire articule. Another interesting analysis as to why mr black was killed

ANALYSIS: Targeting of an Orangeman


David Black was gunned down as he drove to work at the high security Maghaberry prison in Co Antrim (PSNI/PA)



By BEN LOWRY



IN targeting a prison officer who was both an Orangeman and who was in the service at the time of the hunger strikes, dissidents appear to be trying to do two things.
First, they have murdered someone whom they think will receive less sympathy among not only republicans, but moderate Irish nationalists.
This is primarily because of Mr Black’s Orange membership.
But they are also hoping that moderate nationalists will feel that anyone who served during the hunger strikes is tainted.
The calculated killing of Mr Black highlights the fact that there are members of the Prison Service who have decades of service, which is much less likely in the PSNI, after the large-scale Patten redundancies.
It fits the dissident narrative that Northern Ireland is unreformed, and indeed irreformable, despite what Sinn Fein would say.
Second, the murder of an Orangeman is closely linked to another targeting strategy that seeks the same outcome, but from the opposite direction: the killing of Catholic security force members. They have murdered two Catholic PSNI officers – Stephen Carroll and Ronan Kerr – and maimed a third – Peadar Heffron.
But in the case of Kerr and Heffron, who were prominent GAA players, they seemed to target PSNI officers who are not merely Catholic, but immersed in Gaelic culture.
By doing so, dissident terrorists hope to scare off potential security force recruits who have such a background.
If that intimidation succeeds, the dissidents will be able to say that the police and Army are made up of Protestant-dominated ‘securocrats’ – servants of what republicans would call the Orange State.
Another not-so-subtle message of this murder, which seems the work of experienced assassins, is that the Prison Service has not been transformed in the way that the RUC, and its successor the PSNI, were transformed by redundancies and 50-50 recruitment.

Once again its looking for things that aren't there,clinging to any theory that someone might latch onto,naively.

junder

FTA69 wrote: »

Members of your community were also armed members of the crown forces, whether you like it or not they shot UDR men and police officers because they were part of armed wings of the British state. They shot plenty of Catholic ones too. By all means criticise this killing, but don't delude yourself that it occurred solely because the man was a Protestant.

you are correct they did shoot plenty of members of the security forces generally at thier civilian places of work were they were unarmed and generally in the back. needless to say, Mr black was unarmed to.
So was it ok for the provies to shoot people like Mr Black back during the 'troubles'?

junder

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Once again its looking for things that aren't there,clinging to any theory that someone might latch onto,naively.

Sure, i'm naive because i believe that dissident republicans are perfectly capable of murdering somebody because of their religion

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

Can you prove it was'nt sectarain? Or is your proof only that they previously killed catholic police officers. Seems this entire thread is proof of why this prison officer made such a good target, since on the one hand, killing a Protestant is really going to provoke the loyalist community, but because he is a prison officer means people such as yourself can argue that he was killed just because of his job. Of course it's the same argument the provies used when they were killing members of my community before.
End of the day you know and I know and yes even the dissidents know that unless they escalate the conflict to a point which brings the army back onto the streets, they are finished.

Junder thinks the dissidents might have a strategy...shock horror! :eek: What difference does it make to your or anybody's safety, what difference does it make what the reasons where ffs? The problem has to be solved or you and everybody else won't be safe for a very long time.

GRMA

The family won't let any SF members attend the funeral. His orange brethren probably didnt want any taigs around the place.

This should be an occasion for both sides to unify, not stand apart.

Dubhlinner

GRMA wrote: »

The family won't let any SF members attend the funeral. His orange brethren probably didnt want any taigs around the place.

This should be an occasion for both sides to unify, not stand apart.

I doubt they're banning SDLP members attending & they are nearly all "taigs" too

Sinn Fein would have defended attacks like Mr Black's throughout the troubles and glorifed them in an phoblacht. Of course the family don't want them near the place

I think its very feckin ironic that you have spent the thread arguing the reals are not sectarian and targeted Mr Black over his job... but then when his family request no Shinners at his funeral you jump to the conclusion it is for sectarian reasons. Come on now...

GRMA

Dubhlinner wrote: »

I doubt they're banning SDLP members attending & they are nearly all "taigs" too

Sinn Fein would have defended attacks like Mr Black's throughout the troubles and glorifed them in an phoblacht. Of course the family don't want them near the place

I think its very feckin ironic that you have spent the thread arguing the reals are not sectarian and targeted Mr Black over his job... but then when his family request no Shinners at his funeral you jump to the conclusion it is for sectarian reasons. Come on now...

You saw the fuss when Orange men went to Kerrs funeral.

Dubhlinner

GRMA wrote: »

You saw the fuss when Orange men went to Kerrs funeral.

We dont even know his family were in the OO or not. Its neither here nor there though because they object to order members attending RC services not RCs going to Protestant services.

Its plainly obvious the family don't want SF members there because they were the political wing of the IRA and not because their members are mostly RC. Can you genuinely not see that angle?

Like I said - why no objection to SDLP politicians attending?

mcc1

GRMA wrote: »

The family won't let any SF members attend the funeral. His orange brethren probably didnt want any taigs around the place.

This should be an occasion for both sides to unify, not stand apart.

His family are entitled to decide who can and can't go to their loved ones funeral. SF have had their say, that's enough. Mr Black was a long serving member of the prison service like my father was, and like my father he no doubt saw some of his friends/work colleagues murdered or threatened of murder by some of Sinn Fein's members when they were in jail and not in government. I know my father was threatened with a bullet in a back off the head by a SF member currently in government and if anything had happened to him he'd/i'd not want any off them near his funeral either.

Like it or not things like that are still raw, the family's decision should be respected. How you can even dare try and tell them what they should do after what they have gone through is a bloody joke.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

The family won't let any SF members attend the funeral. His orange brethren probably didnt want any taigs around the place.

This should be an occasion for both sides to unify, not stand apart.

Wow, I can't Actully believe that somebody would stoop so low as to attack this family for choosing who can or can not attend the funeral of thier loved one. That's low

GRMA

Fair enough, I was a bit harsh, but I think his family were wrong. Both communities should be united over this, excluding Sinn Féin entirely doesn't help this. I can understand not wanting MMG there but his presence as a republican leader would help, imo. Or anyone from SF, even one of the younger reps.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Fair enough, I was a bit harsh, but I think his family were wrong. Both communities should be united over this, excluding Sinn Féin entirely doesn't help this. I can understand not wanting MMG there but his presence as a republican leader would help, imo. Or anyone from SF, even one of the younger reps.

I am sure there will be quite a few from the catholic community attending the funeral, regardless of who is or is not invited, this is a private matter for the family.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Wow, I can't Actully believe that somebody would stoop so low as to attack this family for choosing who can or can not attend the funeral of thier loved one. That's low

As I said, fair enough it was harsh and in hindsight I shouldnt have said it.

But its a major sign of things today for a republican like MMG to want to attend the funeral of a PO, especially one who worked in Long Kesh during the hunger strikes. Throwing the gesture back in his face is not the right thing to do in my opinion, as I said it should be a time for the communities to unify, not stand apart. Unify like they did after Kerr was shot.


Rather pathetic to be reporting back to your pals on PULSE what I said, I guess I can expect threatening PMs in my inbox so and an attempt to track me down on facebook,as usually happens.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

As I said, fair enough it was harsh and in hindsight I shouldnt have said it.

But its a major sign of things today for a republican like MMG to want to attend the funeral of a PO, especially one who worked in Long Kesh during the hunger strikes. Throwing the gesture back in his face is not the right thing to do in my opinion, as I said it should be a time for the communities to unify, not stand apart. Unify like they did after Kerr was shot.


Rather pathetic to be reporting back to your pals on PULSE what I said, I guess I can expect threatening PMs in my inbox so and an attempt to track me down on facebook,as usually happens.

I think in this case I will use the words of the dissidents themselves for the reasons why Martin should not be attending mr blacks funeral


"Rory Dougan, a dissident spokesman, who said of provos republican terrorism post the Good Friday Agreement: “If we were wrong now, then they were wrong for all them years: and if we are right now then they are wrong"

As for pulse well I'm not going to apologise for drawing attention to reprehensible posts such as yours but you should have noticed that I neither named you or provided a link to the thread. However if anybody was to come on to this site and send threating messages, I am sure there is a mechanism for getting them barred, and if your Facebook details can be got from your boards.ie user name better choose a less obvious user name. The name junder has no personal connection to me, it was a name I picked randomly from a book and is certinly not listed on my facebook account in anyway

RMD

junder wrote: »

Can you prove it was'nt sectarain? Or is your proof only that they previously killed catholic police officers. Seems this entire thread is proof of why this prison officer made such a good target, since on the one hand, killing a Protestant is really going to provoke the loyalist community, but because he is a prison officer means people such as yourself can argue that he was killed just because of his job. Of course it's the same argument the provies used when they were killing members of my community before.
End of the day you know and I know and yes even the dissidents know that unless they escalate the conflict to a point which brings the army back onto the streets, they are finished.

The dissidents are pretty much finished in terms of support, nobody wants them around except for the knuckle dragging republicans still stuck in the 70's. I think Westminister are clever enough to never deploy the BAF to Northern Ireland again, it would be a propaganda victory for the dissidents which is the last thing anybody wants. Their deployment of the SRR was and is the smartest idea IMO, try to gather hard evidence on the dissidents and lock as many up as possible.

GRMA wrote: »

As I said, fair enough it was harsh and in hindsight I shouldnt have said it.

But its a major sign of things today for a republican like MMG to want to attend the funeral of a PO, especially one who worked in Long Kesh during the hunger strikes. Throwing the gesture back in his face is not the right thing to do in my opinion, as I said it should be a time for the communities to unify, not stand apart. Unify like they did after Kerr was shot.


Rather pathetic to be reporting back to your pals on PULSE what I said, I guess I can expect threatening PMs in my inbox so and an attempt to track me down on facebook,as usually happens.

This is the funeral of a man savagely murdered, not a political event for reunification. Let the family make their decisions on who will attend and who wont. SF can release their condemnations and extend their condolences, the funeral is for the family to grieve and not a platform for some political story.

Can we keep the pathetic digs out of this and try hold a mature discussion? If he went to pulse so be it, leave it on pulse then and don't drag this topic off on an unrelated tangent.

Death and Taxes

GRMA wrote: »

The family won't let any SF members attend the funeral. His orange brethren probably didnt want any taigs around the place.

This should be an occasion for both sides to unify, not stand apart.

No this is a private family funeral, the families wishes should be respected and without snide remarks about "taigs", I'm sure there will be members of the SDLP, Alliance etc present.

Death and Taxes

GRMA wrote: »

You saw the fuss when Orange men went to Kerrs funeral.

I saw that they went, despite the fuss!

oscarBravo

GRMA wrote: »

...I guess I can expect threatening PMs in my inbox...

With my admin hat on for a second: if you get threatening PMs, report them. We don't tolerate the PM system being used for threatening or harassment purposes, by anyone, to anyone.

Mr.Micro

RMD wrote: »

The dissidents are pretty much finished in terms of support, nobody wants them around except for the knuckle dragging republicans still stuck in the 70's. I think Westminister are clever enough to never deploy the BAF to Northern Ireland again, it would be a propaganda victory for the dissidents which is the last thing anybody wants. Their deployment of the SRR was and is the smartest idea IMO, try to gather hard evidence on the dissidents and lock as many up as possible.



This is the funeral of a man savagely murdered, not a political event for reunification. Let the family make their decisions on who will attend and who wont. SF can release their condemnations and extend their condolences, the funeral is for the family to grieve and not a platform for some political story.

Can we keep the pathetic digs out of this and try hold a mature discussion? If he went to pulse so be it, leave it on pulse then and don't drag this topic off on an unrelated tangent.

Well said. It's indeed tragic. Nobody needs the political/sectarian groups interfering to gain a platform. Protestant, catholic, SF or loyalist, .......... who gives a monkeys,....just labels. We are all human beings and should treat each other with the respect that we as individuals would want.

Crooked Jack

WileyCoyote wrote: »

No this is a private family funeral, the families wishes should be respected and without snide remarks about "taigs", I'm sure there will be members of the SDLP, Alliance etc present.

Well, it's not really is it. There are representatives from the northern, southern and british governments, the northern and southern prison services, the police, the gardai and almost every political party in the north.
The Deputy first minister condemned this murder in the strongest possible terms and offered to attend but was told he wasn't welcome. I believe this sends out the wrong message, one of segregation and division at a time when unity is what is called for.

junder

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Well, it's not really is it. There are representatives from the northern, southern and british governments, the northern and southern prison services, the police, the gardai and almost every political party in the north.
The Deputy first minister condemned this murder in the strongest possible terms and offered to attend but was told he wasn't welcome. I believe this sends out the wrong message, one of segregation and division at a time when unity is what is called for.

Who attends the funeral is the family's buisness. The orgnization Martin represents used to kill prison officers some could have been friends if the black family. Will he condemn those killings or where they ok, bit hypocritical to condemn the dissidents for doing exactly what the provies did themselves

Crooked Jack

junder wrote: »

Who attends the funeral is the family's buisness. The orgnization Martin represents used to kill prison officers some could have been friends if the black family.

The organisation he represents? Which organisation would that be. The northern executive as DFM? Who did they kill? Or perhaps you mean Sinn Fein. When did Sinn Fein ever shoot a prison officer?
Imagine the outrage if this had have been Martin McGuinness' attitude. "Well he was part of an organisation that used to beat the living shit out of my friends in jail so fuck him." There would quite rightly be uproar.
It is however absolutely the family's business who attend and I'm not for one second disputing that. Im just saying welcoming everyone except the DFM sends a backwards looking and divisive message at a time when all aspects of Irish society should be uniting against these killers.

junder wrote: »

Will he condemn those killings or where they ok, bit hypocritical to condemn the dissidents for doing exactly what the provies did themselves

McGuinness has condemned this killing in the strongest possible terms. He has quite rightly made no reference to killings from 20/30/40 years ago during completely different circumstances. why would he?

Death and Taxes

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Well, it's not really is it. There are representatives from the northern, southern and british governments, the northern and southern prison services, the police, the gardai and almost every political party in the north.
The Deputy first minister condemned this murder in the strongest possible terms and offered to attend but was told he wasn't welcome. I believe this sends out the wrong message, one of segregation and division at a time when unity is what is called for.

I note you carefully chose to ignore the snide and insentive "taig" reference by the poster I was quoting.

gallag

Crooked Jack wrote: »

The organisation he represents? Which organisation would that be. The northern executive as DFM? Who did they kill? Or perhaps you mean Sinn Fein. When did Sinn Fein ever shoot a prison officer?
Imagine the outrage if this had have been Martin McGuinness' attitude. "Well he was part of an organisation that used to beat the living shit out of my friends in jail so fuck him." There would quite rightly be uproar.
It is however absolutely the family's business who attend and I'm not for one second disputing that. Im just saying welcoming everyone except the DFM sends a backwards looking and divisive message at a time when all aspects of Irish society should be uniting against these killers.



McGuinness has condemned this killing in the strongest possible terms. He has quite rightly made no reference to killings from 20/30/40 years ago during completely different circumstances. why would he?

You guys seem more offended about this than about the murder. If one of the solders who murdered people on bloody Sunday got into politics, how ridiculous would you find people who feigned disgust at a nationalist family who lost loved ones on bloody Sunday for refusing entry to said solder to the funeral of a family member murdered by a loyalist hit squad. Hopefully you can get over the offence the black family caused.

GRMA

gallag wrote: »

You guys seem more offended about this than about the murder. If one of the solders who murdered people on bloody Sunday got into politics, how ridiculous would you find people who feigned disgust at a nationalist family who lost loved ones on bloody Sunday for refusing entry to said solder to the funeral of a family member murdered by a loyalist hit squad. Hopefully you can get over the offence the black family caused.

Don't talk rubbish. if anything good were to come from this horrible event it could have been the unity like we saw after Kerr was killed.

This plays into the bloodthirsty loyalist line that this was sectarian and the family doing this doesn't help things.

Loyalists attended the funeral and they killed PO's too, and haven't even disarmed.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

I think in this case I will use the words of the dissidents themselves for the reasons why Martin should not be attending mr blacks funeral


"Rory Dougan, a dissident spokesman, who said of provos republican terrorism post the Good Friday Agreement: “If we were wrong now, then they were wrong for all them years: and if we are right now then they are wrong"

As for pulse well I'm not going to apologise for drawing attention to reprehensible posts such as yours but you should have noticed that I neither named you or provided a link to the thread. However if anybody was to come on to this site and send threating messages, I am sure there is a mechanism for getting them barred, and if your Facebook details can be got from your boards.ie user name better choose a less obvious user name. The name junder has no personal connection to me, it was a name I picked randomly from a book and is certinly not listed on my facebook account in anyway

You did.

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

You guys seem more offended about this than about the murder. If one of the solders who murdered people on bloody Sunday got into politics, how ridiculous would you find people who feigned disgust at a nationalist family who lost loved ones on bloody Sunday for refusing entry to said solder to the funeral of a family member murdered by a loyalist hit squad. Hopefully you can get over the offence the black family caused.

I'm sorry are you suggesting Martin McGuinness shot Mr Black or a member of his family? Because that's the only way your argument is in any way valid.
I have at no point claimed to be offended or disgusted by the position the Black family has taken in fact if you read back you'll see I agreed wholeheartedly that it's up to them who attends the funeral.
All i said was that very publicly making clear that representatives of one party would not be welcome was a divisive move and not one in keeping with the united front parties here have been putting up in the face of these killings.

Crooked Jack

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I note you carefully chose to ignore the snide and insentive "taig" reference by the poster I was quoting.

I ignored it because I dont think it's accurate. If you have a problem with what somebody else said take it up with them dont use it to deflect from the point I'm making

GRMA

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I ignored it because I dont think it's accurate. If you have a problem with what somebody else said take it up with them dont use it to deflect from the point I'm making

As I said earlier I shouldn't have said it, and I retract it.

gallag

GRMA wrote: »

Don't talk rubbish. if anything good were to come from this horrible event it could have been the unity like we saw after Kerr was killed.

This plays into the bloodthirsty loyalist line that this was sectarian and the family doing this doesn't help things.

Loyalists attended the funeral and they killed PO's too, and haven't even disarmed.

Loyalists this, blood thirsty loyalists, and the family causing outrage. Poor prisoners. Strip searches. Blagh Blagh. I have not heard you condeme the dissidents and say what they did was not justified as strongly as you are condemning the black family. You defend or at least try to justify the dissidents actions while attacking loyalists and the black family.

GRMA

gallag wrote: »

Loyalists this, blood thirsty loyalists, and the family causing outrage. Poor prisoners. Strip searches. Blagh Blagh. I have not heard you condeme the dissidents and say what they did was not justified as strongly as you are condemning the black family. You defend or at least try to justify the dissidents actions while attacking loyalists and the black family.

Don't talk rubbish, I have condemned it and unreservedly do so. I think it was a disgrace.

Just because you dont agree with me there's no need to label me a dissdent supporter. That's lazy.

gallag

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I'm sorry are you suggesting Martin McGuinness shot Mr Black or a member of his family? Because that's the only way your argument is in any way valid.
I have at no point claimed to be offended or disgusted by the position the Black family has taken in fact if you read back you'll see I agreed wholeheartedly that it's up to them who attends the funeral.
All i said was that very publicly making clear that representatives of one party would not be welcome was a divisive move and not one in keeping with the united front parties here have been putting up in the face of these killings.

Nonsense, I made an analogy that I am sure you under stood. I will make it clearer. If one of the solders who was working on bloody Sunday got into politics, let's say the leader of the pup, and then one of the family's who had been affected by bloody sunday, either directly or indirectly then lost a loved one to a loyalist hit squad, would you be critical of the family's decision to not welcome the solders to the funeral?

gallag

GRMA wrote: »

Don't talk rubbish, I have condemned it and unreservedly do so. I think it was a disgrace.

Just because you dont agree with me there's no need to label me a dissdent supporter. That's lazy.

You are but, it's all here in black and white. Look at your language, sympathy and putting logic to the actions of the dissidents while harsh language, strong condemnation and a negative stance on all things loyalist or the black family. You have used more words explaining why the black family is wrong than you have condemning the actions of the murderers. You have used words with negative connotations with loyalists I.e blood thirsty while avoiding and strong negatives for the dissidents. You have spent more time telling tails of the dangers of mistreating prisoners than of the dangers of shooting at a car on the motorway.

It's all in black and white, and while you might believe you don't support the dissidents you have showed them more support than the victims in this thread.

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

Nonsense, I made an analogy that I am sure you under stood. I will make it clearer. If one of the solders who was working on bloody Sunday got into politics, let's say the leader of the pup, and then one of the family's who had been affected by bloody sunday, either directly or indirectly then lost a loved one to a loyalist hit squad, would you be critical of the family's decision to not welcome the solders to the funeral?

Firstly, that is not what you said. you said this

"If one of the solders who murdered people on bloody Sunday got into politics, how ridiculous would you find people who feigned disgust at a nationalist family who lost loved ones on bloody Sunday for refusing entry to said solder to the funeral of a family member murdered by a loyalist hit squad. Hopefully you can get over the offence the black family caused."

A totally different scenario. You have now realised that and are back tracking with this new scenario, which, doesnt apply to this situation either.
Unless you are aware of some incident wherein Martin McGuinness shot a colleague or family member of Mr Black your comment is nonsensical and even dafter than the usual whataboutery we hear on boards.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

You did.

I made an earlier link to the thread long before you wrote your misguided post, I do that quite often in the hope that other unionists / loyalists would join in debates on this site, it can be tiresome being the only unionist. I do this because I know that the moderation on this site is quite robust, so anybody yahoo coming on spouting sectarian rubbish will be barred fairly quickly, but no direct link was made to you or you post

.jacksparrow.

junder wrote: »

I made an earlier link to the thread long before you wrote your misguided post, I do that quite often in the hope that other unionists / loyalists would join in debates on this site, it can be tiresome being the only unionist. I do this because I know that the moderation on this site is quite robust, so anybody yahoo coming on spouting sectarian rubbish will be barred fairly quickly, but no direct link was made to you or you post

But you're the one who made this into a sectarian debate?

gallag

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Firstly, that is not what you said. you said this

"If one of the solders who murdered people on bloody Sunday got into politics, how ridiculous would you find people who feigned disgust at a nationalist family who lost loved ones on bloody Sunday for refusing entry to said solder to the funeral of a family member murdered by a loyalist hit squad. Hopefully you can get over the offence the black family caused."

A totally different scenario. You have now realised that and are back tracking with this new scenario, which, doesnt apply to this situation either.
Unless you are aware of some incident wherein Martin McGuinness shot a colleague or family member of Mr Black your comment is nonsensical and even dafter than the usual whataboutery we hear on boards.

Nonsense. It is a sound analogy. Martin was a member of the IRA as the solder was a member of the baf. The soilder would be associated with the murder of innocent people just as Martin would be associated with the murder of innocent people.
Surly you can understand my point, surly you can agree that it is ridiculous to be focusing on the black family not wanting IRA men who killed/assoseated with killers of colleagues and friends of Mr black at his funeral? ????.

480905

Whatever the colour , creed or religion of the people who carried out this attack, it changes nothing of the fact that they are guilty of murdering a man on his way to do a days work. A family man, wife, Kids, probably had a dog.... Former prisoners have expressed revulsion at this man being attacked. "A pure gentleman" one was quoted as saying.... Now to those who are separating this into a political battle , please desist as you are slurrying the memory of a family man, Orange or Green , his religion is irrelevant now, who was murdered by thugs.

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

Nonsense. It is a sound analogy. Martin was a member of the IRA as the solder was a member of the baf. The soilder would be associated with the murder of innocent people just as Martin would be associated with the murder of innocent people.
Surly you can understand my point, surly you can agree that it is ridiculous to be focusing on the black family not wanting IRA men who killed/assoseated with killers of colleagues and friends of Mr black at his funeral? ????.

It absolutely is not and anybody can see that by just reading through the last few posts. I cannot understand your point because it is nonsensical, however, I can understand why you would want to make such a point as it suits your own ends, sadly however, it's just not one that is based in reality.

Scofflaw

This thread looks it's descending into standard NI trench warfare - which will attract the standard "fine tooth comb and ban hammer" moderation result if not walked away from pretty sharpish.

moderately,
Scofflaw