Waterford Airport.

JCX BXC

Harry Palmr wrote: »

We all know the score - no jets no hope. twopenny turbo-prop based services are simply not going to cut it. The airport site might be better becoming a retail or amusement park at this stage.

Don't agree whatsoever. There's not one single airport in Ireland with a jet service that does not have a turboprop service, it's easier to sustain a prob service than it is a jet service, unless the market is extremely low cost. If that wasn't true, then turboprop services wouldn't exist at all.

Harry Palmr

JCX BXC wrote: »

Don't agree whatsoever. There's not one single airport in Ireland with a jet service that does not have a turboprop service, it's easier to sustain a prob service than it is a jet service, unless the market is extremely low cost. If that wasn't true, then turboprop services wouldn't exist at all.

How many companies have come and gone in the last decade?

Teebor15

JCX BXC wrote: »

Don't agree whatsoever. There's not one single airport in Ireland with a jet service that does not have a turboprop service, it's easier to sustain a prob service than it is a jet service, unless the market is extremely low cost. If that wasn't true, then turboprop services wouldn't exist at all.

Derry has an all Jet service with Ryanair and BMR

Belfast International has an all Jet Service.

Kerry has a PSO with Stobart, if it did'nt then they would not fly there leaving just Ryanair with an all jet service.

914

The News and star have an article about the carrier this week. They state that the licensing issue has been resolved but that they now do not have a plane to run the fligts!

What is going on at all?

I got tired of waiting so had to book the football trip to london from Dublin.

JCX BXC

Why does Stobart exist in that case, if jets can do every route better than a turboprop does, why do they exist.

Because they don't do a route better, they are more sustainable on probs than jets. Stobart however only focus on larger airports, unlike when they were Aer Arran.

Without turboprop aircraft, UK connectivity at airports like Knock, Shannon and Cork would be much smaller.

Deiseen

914 wrote: »

The News and star have an article about the carrier this week. They state that the licensing issue has been resolved but that they now do not have a plane to run the fligts!

What is going on at all?

I got tired of waiting so had to book the football trip to london from Dublin.

The problem is that, even when they get up and running, how can you trust them to fulfill the flights you have booked in say January? Who is to say that they will have your plane in Waterford ready for your flight, or your plane in London for you to return? Will it be on time? This is all a worry without even talking about safety.
I'd probably give them a go (just about) but then, I am very Pro-Waterford Airport. Many other people are not so positive about the airport and I just can't see them willing to hand over the extra cash to use this airline.
A complete and utter disaster in every sense of the word.

dzilla

Has there been anymore on this? I am pro-Waterford airport but this whole situation is now shambolic. If Aer Southeast was to ever happen I genuinely would not be comfortable flying with them at this stage as they seem like they couldn't organize a rosary in a convent.

JCX BXC

dzilla wrote: »

Has there been anymore on this? I am pro-Waterford airport but this whole situation is now shambolic. If Aer Southeast was to ever happen I genuinely would not be comfortable flying with them at this stage as they seem like they couldn't organize a rosary in a convent.

Nearly 3 months on I'd say it's as good as gone. Could be surprised but I'd say there's a fair chance we may hear no more!

TheQuietFella

JCX BXC wrote: »

Nearly 3 months on I'd say it's as good as gone. Could be surprised but I'd say there's a fair chance we may hear no more!

They're waiting on the Arabs to purchase it!

PistolsAtDawn

Why don't they just extend the runway? Buy some fields, do necessay ground works, lay tarmac. An over simplification of course but in essence this is all thats required. Tgey have had years to do it, what's the hold up?

Harry Palmr

PistolsAtDawn wrote: »

Why don't they just extend the runway? Buy some fields, do necessay ground works, lay tarmac. An over simplification of course but in essence this is all thats required. Tgey have had years to do it, what's the hold up?

Money of course! The case to turn a turbo-prop length runaway into something 737/320 friendly has never been accepted by various governments. It would cost about 20 million I think.

TheQuietFella

PistolsAtDawn wrote: »

Why don't they just extend the runway? Buy some fields, do necessay ground works, lay tarmac. An over simplification of course but in essence this is all thats required. Tgey have had years to do it, what's the hold up?

It's a case of throwing good money down a bottomless pit as far as Waterford
is concerned! We're too small a town to warrant significant investment in either the Quays or the airport. The demand just isn't there for it whatever the party line says!

Can you imagine the furore if the new development went ahead. There would be an outcry from neighbouring counties about the amount of lost trade, loss of jobs, etc.... As for the airport, it was a nice idea but unfortunately the economic crash killed it! Dublin A' is only up the motorway anyway!

Masala

TheQuietFella wrote: »

It's a case of throwing good money down a bottomless pit as far as Waterford
is concerned! We're too small a town to warrant significant investment in either the Quays or the airport. The demand just isn't there for it whatever the party line says!

Can you imagine the furore if the new development went ahead. There would be an outcry from neighbouring counties about the amount of lost trade, loss of jobs, etc.... As for the airport, it was a nice idea but unfortunately the economic crash killed it! Dublin A' is only up the motorway anyway!

Yes.... and the Government hands would be tied as to providing funding as EU rules would see this as just taking traffic from other neighboring airports. So...it will have to be funded locally!

And thats a alot of Church Gate collections!

TheQuietFella

Masala wrote: »

Yes.... and the Government hands would be tied as to providing funding as EU rules would see this as just taking traffic from other neighboring airports. So...it will have to be funded locally!

And thats a alot of Church Gate collections!

The Arabs, the Arabs! We might even get the flight training school back!!!

Teebor15

Masala wrote: »

Yes.... and the Government hands would be tied as to providing funding as EU rules would see this as just taking traffic from other neighboring airports. So...it will have to be funded locally!

And thats a alot of Church Gate collections!

This is incorrect. EU Rules permit state funding, its the current governments policy not to provide funding for commercial developments at airports.

JCX BXC

Realistically, all the infastructure needed to put Waterford as a viable jet airport would be excessively expensive for the gain for the region. It would be far better put to other use in the region. Waterford could do with some good investment no doubt, not sure it should be the airport getting it. Privately funded is a different story, but that has a slim chance.

Masala

Teebor15 wrote: »

This is incorrect. EU Rules permit state funding, its the current governments policy not to provide funding for commercial developments at airports.

Afraid I am correct.... they will not allow further investment in Airports when there is underutilisation in nearby airports. Also.. they are not interested in seeing airlines moving around airports to get best deals at expense of the airports.

road_high

JCX BXC wrote: »

Realistically, all the infastructure needed to put Waterford as a viable jet airport would be excessively expensive for the gain for the region. It would be far better put to other use in the region. Waterford could do with some good investment no doubt, not sure it should be the airport getting it. Privately funded is a different story, but that has a slim chance.

How much would it cost to bring WAT up to jet standard?

JCX BXC

road_high wrote: »

How much would it cost to bring WAT up to jet standard?

20m plus really IMO, more if you want CAT II ILS (airport has very bad visibility, worse than Cork!) and a better terminal in order to handle the larger amounts of people going through.

Masala

JCX BXC wrote: »

20m plus really IMO, more if you want CAT II ILS (airport has very bad visibility, worse than Cork!) and a better terminal in order to handle the larger amounts of people going through.

Would find it hard to imagine WAT could put a Business Plan together to justify that investment. Where is it going to get flights.... and annual growth???

Teebor15

Masala wrote: »

Afraid I am correct.... they will not allow further investment in Airports when there is underutilisation in nearby airports. Also.. they are not interested in seeing airlines moving around airports to get best deals at expense of the airports.

I'm afraid your not. First of all, the EU only issue guidelines not rules. It is up to each individual state whether they adopt those guideline or not, Ireland has. So it is this governments policy not to provide investment in commercial projects at Regional Airports.

I'm not going to bore everyone to tears by quoting the document but its here if you want a read.

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/airports_en

Looking at the guidelines themselves. State funding is permitted of up to 75% for airports under 200,000 passengers.

Define a "nearby" airport. The Government aviation policy document published in 2015 does not show Waterford as having any "nearby" airports, otherwise they would have cut operational support similiar to Galway and Sligo.

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/aviation/english/national-aviation-policy-ireland/national-aviation-policy-ireland.pdf

Its ironic. They support the airport with day to day expenses to assist in regional development but won't support it to develop itself to actually be able to fulfill that role.

To use an anaolgy, they are giving Waterford a little bit of fish every year (Opex) so it doesn't starve rather than giving it a fishing rod (Capex) and allowing it to fish for itself and thrive.

Teebor15

JCX BXC wrote: »

Realistically, all the infastructure needed to put Waterford as a viable jet airport would be excessively expensive for the gain for the region. It would be far better put to other use in the region. Waterford could do with some good investment no doubt, not sure it should be the airport getting it. Privately funded is a different story, but that has a slim chance.

I would respectfully disagree. With the South East performing poorly than other regions in Tourism but with a drive now to change that surely a viable airport bringing people directly into the region would be a huge asset and pay for itself over a few years. Tourists from the UK would be more inclined to visit a region if they can fly directly into it, especially short breaks of a night or two, rather than into Cork or Dublin and have to travel a few hours by road. They will just stay where ever they fly into. With the North Quay development, including the Ardri, Waterford is aiming to position it self as a "Destination City", a vaibl

Also with all this office space and residential units proposed in the new North Quays project, Waterford like its peer cities is trying to Capitalise on the possible brexit fallout with companies wishing to relocate their European Offices to EU countries. Cork, Galway and Limerick are all eyeing up the same opportunities with office block developments proposed in all 3. Which has the better chance of securing these companies, the city with mulitple flights to the UK, especially London on their doorstep or the city where you need to get in a car and drive 2 hours just to get to an airport.

Out of curiosity and I'm not doubting you or being argumentative but where would the money be better spent?

Teebor15

JCX BXC wrote: »

20m plus really IMO, more if you want CAT II ILS. a better terminal in order to handle the larger amounts of people going through.

20m would be nice alright but only about half that (8-10M) would get the airport back in the game. The only thing that requires immediate attention is the runway. It needs to be longer, wider and stronger.

The land required is purchased and all fenced off ready to go, a hill, deemed an obstruction, has been moved from one side to fill in a dip at the other side, (Major project). The fire service is fully equipped for larger operations, the apron and taxiways may need some small modifications and also the terminal may need some alterations but nothing that would be cost prohibitive.

We are not talking about building Dublin here, or even Cork, just facilities that can handle a 2-3 B737/A320 flight a day plus a few turboprop flights.

airport has very bad visibility, worse than Cork

This is nonesense. The airport suffers fog on the odd occassion like a lot of airports but can I see the figures showing its worse than Cork? I'm sure every airport would like a CAT II or even CAT III ILS but very few the size Waterford is aspiring be have it, it is not a requirement.

JCX BXC

Teebor15 wrote: »

I would respectfully disagree. With the South East performing poorly than other regions in Tourism but with a drive now to change that surely a viable airport bringing people directly into the region would be a huge asset and pay for itself over a few years. Tourists from the UK would be more inclined to visit a region if they can fly directly into it, especially short breaks of a night or two, rather than into Cork or Dublin and have to travel a few hours by road. They will just stay where ever they fly into. With the North Quay development, including the Ardri, Waterford is aiming to position it self as a "Destination City", a vaibl

Also with all this office space and residential units proposed in the new North Quays project, Waterford like its peer cities is trying to Capitalise on the possible brexit fallout with companies wishing to relocate their European Offices to EU countries. Cork, Galway and Limerick are all eyeing up the same opportunities with office block developments proposed in all 3. Which has the better chance of securing these companies, the city with mulitple flights to the UK, especially London on their doorstep or the city where you need to get in a car and drive 2 hours just to get to an airport.

First thing here is market size, Waterford is alot smaller in market size than Cork, Shannon, even Knock. Waterford and the surrounding regions has very good connectivity to Cork and Dublin, unlike regions such as Kerry and Knock.

Remember, only Cork and Dublin have nearby cities that can sustain them themselves. Even Derry is massively struggling. Shannon has nearby Limerick and Galway, as well as county Clare and the Shannon industrial zone to drive business trips. Waterford is Ireland's smallest city, with few nearby urban centers. Hence my belief that it's market is quite small.

The UK market will be volatile over the next few years. Lately we've seen cuts in capacity from most airports, which are likely to continue as Brexit does (pound weakens, so does inbound tourism).

If Waterford cannot get airlines such as Flybe, Loganair and Stobart to fly to the perfectly serviceable airport for them, we need to ask why? Is it political? No. Is it due to preventing hampering other markets? Probably not for Stobart, and No for other 2. Is it because of a lack of market? Me thinks yes.

I've heard the argument of "turboprop airlines are expensive airlines", remember an LCC only sells a certain amount of seats at a low price, and the rest at a premium. If they cannot get this premium, then yields are dirt and they make no money. Hence the ideology that if WAT cannot sustain a turboprop operation, it cannot sustain a LCC operation.

Drive for tourism all you want, but if nobody comes in heads will roll big time. It's not an issue of build and they will come. Far from it. Imagine spending that money, only to get a turboprop service, or nothing at all? There's no guarantees with these services! Ryanair would be the only one imo that would realistically touch WAT, and would this be nothing (as they've said in the past), or a penny service like Derry?.

Teebor15

Masala wrote: »

Would find it hard to imagine WAT could put a Business Plan together to justify that investment. Where is it going to get flights.... and annual growth???

The problem Waterford has at the moment is the lack of potential operators with aircraft capable of landing at the airport due to the short runway. Years ago there were lots of airlines flying turboprops but now through with the advent of the Lost cost Carrier who only fly aircraft too big for Waterford the choice is pretty restricted.

Take London for example, 6 airports.

Heathrow, not a chance, totally slot contrainsed with slots utilised on high yield major city routes. 99% jet operation.

Gatwick, busiest single runway airport in the world, so naturally to maximise the runway they want only larger aircraft so have priced turboprop operators out of the game.

Stansted & Luton. Again no airline with aircraft suitable for Waterford

City. To expensive to operate from and is for high yield business flights with plenty of frequency between large European cities

Southend. Yet to really make its mark as a London airport. Tried it before but lack of awareness and its location didn't help. Could be worth a try again.

Luton was the breadwinner for years until it was killed off. If the airport was brought up to standard i could easily see Ryanair or Easyjet (If circumstances dictated) flying 1-2 flights daily. And maybe even a Gatwick service with Ryanair /AerLingus.

If Knock and Kerry can support these I see no reason why Waterford can't.

JCX BXC

Teebor15 wrote: »

If Knock and Kerry can support these I see no reason why Waterford can't.

As I've said above, isolation.

Just as a simple example, neither Kerry nor Mayo have motorways.

road_high

JCX BXC wrote: »

As I've said above, isolation.

Just as a simple example, neither Kerry nor Mayo have motorways.

Knock market a lot towards the Galway market. Also the emigrant community is large up west, less so in the south east.

Teebor15

JCX BXC wrote: »

As I've said above, isolation.

Just as a simple example, neither Kerry nor Mayo have motorways.

Kerry is not isolated, in fact it is closer to both Cork and Shannon than Waterford is to any alternative airport and only really serves the County of Kerry, a population of less than 150,000 people. Waterfords catchment area is far greater. Kerry has the tourism angle which helps but if the South East is going aspire to that also then a viable airport is a must.

Knock is serving a larger area geographically but arguably not population wise. Even if Waterford only had half the passenger throughput as Knock it would be money well spent. The population of the southeast is in excessive of 500,000 people. The Northwest, including Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Longford and maybe half of Galway is about 450,000.

Waterford's catchment area and attractiveness would grow if you can offer similiar fares to those at the nearest alternative. Example if your living halfway between Waterford and Dublin, then Waterford with easy passage, low car parking charges, no shuttle bus from car park, no 2 mile walk through the terminal, no crowds, no M50 congestion would become much more attractive for thus sustaining the larger aircraft now operating. To offer similiar fares, you need the carriers with larger aircraft, to facilitate the larger aircraft you need a bigger runway!

Teebor15

road_high wrote: »

Knock market a lot towards the Galway market

They do, and are still able to compete with Shannon which is closer to the main population centre (Galway City) than Knock. Why? because they offer a similiar service because they have low cost carriers utilising they're Jet Runway.

Also the emigrant community is large up west, less so in the south east

Is it though? I'm not having a go at you I would have thought this too but are there actually figures to support this? I suppose probably historically, people who moved years ago travelling back to visit relatives. If we are talking about people commuting to the UK to find work. I know the South East has above the national average unemployment with Waterford city suffering the highest unemployment out of all the cities.

Kotek Besar

Selassie I liveth.