Waterford Airport.

Cosmo Kramer

914 wrote: »

Wlr reporting that EY have been appointed to complete an independent report on the airports viability for the future.

Or lack thereof presumably, if it's independent?

dzilla

But but but aer Southeast are coming back....... lol

hardybuck

914 wrote: »

Wlr reporting that EY have been appointed to complete an independent report on the airports viability for the future.

Appointed by whom?

dzilla

hardybuck wrote: »

Appointed by whom?

The minister of transport

Deise Vu

I'm afraid the EY thing is the end of days for the airport. SOP for politicians with bad news to impart is appoint the consultants; agree the fee; agree the conclusion; start the analysis. See Cath Lab report.

In fairness the business decision to close the airport writes itself, I don't know why they need to appoint EY. We failed to attract an airline, because they don't see the need / demand. I hope the facilities are at least mothballed or maintained for the Air Sea Rescue and who knows what might happen down the road.

notharrypotter

Deise Vu wrote: »

I'm afraid the EY thing is the end of days for the airport. SOP for politicians with bad news to impart is appoint the consultants; agree the fee; agree the conclusion; start the analysis. See Cath Lab report.

In fairness the business decision to close the airport writes itself, I don't know why they need to appoint EY. We failed to attract an airline, because they don't see the need / demand. I hope the facilities are at least mothballed or maintained for the Air Sea Rescue and who knows what might happen down the road.

The report will find that there is no likelihood of a scheduled commercial service.
But that the Airport be maintained as a SAR base.

Reductions is staffing will be needed.

Main saving will be from the lack of a need by the state to provide financial assistance in a large scale.

Deiseen

Or maybe they will say it is viable with a runway extension....

Ya never know...

Dum_Dum

Deiseen wrote: »

Or maybe they will say it is viable with a runway extension....

Ya never know...

Then the report will be ignored; à la boundary extension.


For curiosity's sake - does anyone on the inside know what the Minister has instructed EY to fix the conclusion as yet?

fricatus

Deiseen wrote: »

Or maybe they will say it is viable with a runway extension....

Ya never know...

I'd hope that's what the outcome would be. It seems to me to be pretty obvious that the airport would be viable in that case.

I mean we're not talking A380 service to LA and Dubai here, just a few flights to the UK and maybe even the continent. The sort of services I'm talking about are available in Kerry and Knock, which have smaller population catchments, and seem to be sustainable year after year.

Irish people made 32 million air journeys in 2016, so if Waterford Airport were to corner the market in the entire region (11% of the total population), we'd be talking 3.52 million passengers.

That's not going to happen of course, because of the range of destinations available out of Dublin, but a quick glance at the CSO statistics show that at least a quarter of our journeys are to the London area airports. If all passengers to or from the south-east flew to London via Waterford, that would be about 800,000 passengers. Yes, Waterford will not suit everybody, but if we had London, Manchester, Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt Hahn, plus a few sun destinations, then a million is entirely achievable.

If the question the report sets out to answer is "is the airport sustainable in its present form?", then you can be sure it's a stitch-up. But hopefully the question will be "what investment is required to make it competitive?"

The cynic in me says that it will be the former...

Masala

fricatus wrote: »

I'd hope that's what the outcome would be. It seems to me to be pretty obvious that the airport would be viable in that case.

I mean we're not talking A380 service to LA and Dubai here, just a few flights to the UK and maybe even the continent. The sort of services I'm talking about are available in Kerry and Knock, which have smaller population catchments, and seem to be sustainable year after year.

Irish people made 32 million air journeys in 2016, so if Waterford Airport were to corner the market in the entire region (11% of the total population), we'd be talking 3.52 million passengers.

That's not going to happen of course, because of the range of destinations available out of Dublin, but a quick glance at the CSO statistics show that at least a quarter of our journeys are to the London area airports. If all passengers to or from the south-east flew to London via Waterford, that would be about 800,000 passengers. Yes, Waterford will not suit everybody, but if we had London, Manchester, Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt Hahn, plus a few sun destinations, then a million is entirely achievable.

If the question the report sets out to answer is "is the airport sustainable in its present form?", then you can be sure it's a stitch-up. But hopefully the question will be "what investment is required to make it competitive?"

The cynic in me says that it will be the former...

Jaysus.... thats some number!!! ..

... and flights to Amsterdam and Frankfurt-Hahn as well!!

dzilla

I think it's game over now.

914

I think it will be based on is the airport sustainable as it presently is. Sounds like the government want to wash their hands of it at this stage.

If it was based on is the airport sustainable with a larger runway, then I'm sure donegal, sligo would be knocking on the door looking for reports if they also had a longer runway they could reach x amoubt of passengers.

Build it and they will come, what if you build it and they don't come, no minister will want to be responsible for that especially if they are not from Waterford.

You would even probably have knock looking for reports on a second runway as well as kerry! Wouldn't put it past them.

I hope I'm wrong and the 2040 predictions are including which could improve our hopes in developing a larger wider runway but I'm not so sure after hearing John Cummins at a recent council meeting stating that the council may need an emergency meeting on the airport sooner rather than later.

JCX BXC

fricatus wrote: »

I'd hope that's what the outcome would be. It seems to me to be pretty obvious that the airport would be viable in that case.

Obivous, or is it you being hopeful?

I mean we're not talking A380 service to LA and Dubai here, just a few flights to the UK and maybe even the continent. The sort of services I'm talking about are available in Kerry and Knock, which have smaller population catchments, and seem to be sustainable year after year.

Yet Waterford cannot sustain these routes. Knock only has turboprop services to Manchester, Birmingham and Edinburgh, Shannon to the latter 2. If Waterford cannot maintain a turboprop on these routes, it will most certainly not maintain a jet aircraft on these routes.

London is a slightly more jet orientated route, but considering the abysmal numbers seen on that route, I think it speaks for itself that theres no sustaining these routes.

It has been explained, and explained again, and again and again, that Kerry and Knock have very wide catchments as they're much further from the big bad Dublin than Waterford is, and also attract a much larger tourist market. Waterford airports market is barely the city, as it's so easy and cheap to get to Dublin Airport. From Kerry and Mayo, it's a nice bit harder, on worse roads, and normally at a higher expense. That means more people are willing to fork out that little extra time and money to fly local. The tourism they see in Mayo and Kerry is a different world to Waterford, which besides the Greenway attracting mainly national tourism, is almost a tourist avoidence area. Waterford is also fairly economically deprived, not maintaining the industry or GDP that many other areas smaller do. That's more a local issue though, and probably should be tackled well before notions of an airport. That and the M25 and M24

Irish people made 32 million air journeys in 2016, so if Waterford Airport were to corner the market in the entire region (11% of the total population), we'd be talking 3.52 million passengers.

Which is a meaningless figure to be honest. You're completely overestimating the catchment, and Cork doesn't even have those figures. With a metro population of 400,000 alone, and a nice slice further from Dublin is from Waterford, with alot more industry, it managed 2.2mil in 2016. Take all that isolated county Cork south and west of the city, as well as a fair slice of Kerry, east Cork and even West Waterford, and they don't seem to manage the expectations that you put on Waterford. Further on top of that, Cork offers a much better tourist product than Waterford, and offers good connections to Kerry that aren't achieved by the sluggish Kerry airport.

That's not going to happen of course, because of the range of destinations available out of Dublin, but a quick glance at the CSO statistics show that at least a quarter of our journeys are to the London area airports. If all passengers to or from the south-east flew to London via Waterford, that would be about 800,000 passengers. Yes, Waterford will not suit everybody, but if we had London, Manchester, Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt Hahn, plus a few sun destinations, then a million is entirely achievable.

It's entirely a pipe dream to be honest. We don't see Amsterdam from Shannon. What your suggesting is akin to christallers central place theory, where people have equal purchasing power, equal transport, and will go to their nearest convience. The reality is starkly different, economic situations are very differing, and a €20 Ryanair flight with several choices of departure times draws passengers from even places like Cork and Limerick. It shouldn't really, but it does.

If the question the report sets out to answer is "is the airport sustainable in its present form?", then you can be sure it's a stitch-up. But hopefully the question will be "what investment is required to make it competitive?"

The cynic in me says that it will be the former...

Why would it phrases it as "what investment is required to make it competitive"? That implies it can become competitive, and in my view, it simply cannot since the building of the Celtic tiger motorways and express bus routes to the exploding Dublin. I assume the question will be "can it become semi-sustainable" with the caveat of a runway extention in the mix. Even if the airport managed to get a steady service to London, It would still be horribly loss-making. It would need several services with airlines who actually pay fees, even knock would lose money if they didn't have a €10 departure fee, which I think would ironically knock Waterford out too if it ever got a service.

I understand you do hope for the airport to succeed, and are perhaps looking at it through rose tinted glasses. I myself know Waterford well and have an interest in the place, have spent a good period of time there in the last number of years. However with the stark and obivous issues facing the city, I think any campaigning work would be much better put into improving the city, getting industry in there, and incorporating the area north of the suir into the county and city. Such strange political situations have left a city center facing onto almost countryside. Why battle the unachievable like the airport when progress can be made at other issues?

914

Airport statement....

Minister for Transport appoints Ernst & Young to conduct a review of Waterford Airport;

The Airport welcomes the appointment of Enrst & Young by the Minister for Transport. The review gives an opportunity to explore options within which the airport can serve the South East region.

The runway at Waterford Airport which has remained relatively unchanged since it was built in the early eighties cannot cater for the range of aircraft in the current market place. The airport believes that an extended runway, facilitating larger aircraft, is vital to its future sustainability and is exploring all options to secure investment to this end.

The Airport Company welcomes the review in this context and reiterates its commitment to the delivery of appropriate regional air services for the South East into the future and the continuation of the vital Sea and Air Rescue Services served by Waterford Airport.

Deiseen

JCX BXC wrote: »

fricatus wrote: »

I'd hope that's what the outcome would be. It seems to me to be pretty obvious that the airport would be viable in that case.

Obivous, or is it you being hopeful?

I mean we're not talking A380 service to LA and Dubai here, just a few flights to the UK and maybe even the continent. The sort of services I'm talking about are available in Kerry and Knock, which have smaller population catchments, and seem to be sustainable year after year.

Yet Waterford cannot sustain these routes. Knock only has turboprop services to Manchester, Birmingham and Edinburgh, Shannon to the latter 2. If Waterford cannot maintain a turboprop on these routes, it will most certainly not maintain a jet aircraft on these routes.

London is a slightly more jet orientated route, but considering the abysmal numbers seen on that route, I think it speaks for itself that theres no sustaining these routes.

It has been explained, and explained again, and again and again, that Kerry and Knock have very wide catchments as they're much further from the big bad Dublin than Waterford is, and also attract a much larger tourist market. Waterford airports market is barely the city, as it's so easy and cheap to get to Dublin Airport. From Kerry and Mayo, it's a nice bit harder, on worse roads, and normally at a higher expense. That means more people are willing to fork out that little extra time and money to fly local. The tourism they see in Mayo and Kerry is a different world to Waterford, which besides the Greenway attracting mainly national tourism, is almost a tourist avoidence area. Waterford is also fairly economically deprived, not maintaining the industry or GDP that many other areas smaller do. That's more a local issue though, and probably should be tackled well before notions of an airport. That and the M25 and M24

Irish people made 32 million air journeys in 2016, so if Waterford Airport were to corner the market in the entire region (11% of the total population), we'd be talking 3.52 million passengers.

Which is a meaningless figure to be honest. You're completely overestimating the catchment, and Cork doesn't even have those figures. With a metro population of 400,000 alone, and a nice slice further from Dublin is from Waterford, with alot more industry, it managed 2.2mil in 2016. Take all that isolated county Cork south and west of the city, as well as a fair slice of Kerry, east Cork and even West Waterford, and they don't seem to manage the expectations that you put on Waterford. Further on top of that, Cork offers a much better tourist product than Waterford, and offers good connections to Kerry that aren't achieved by the sluggish Kerry airport.

That's not going to happen of course, because of the range of destinations available out of Dublin, but a quick glance at the CSO statistics show that at least a quarter of our journeys are to the London area airports. If all passengers to or from the south-east flew to London via Waterford, that would be about 800,000 passengers. Yes, Waterford will not suit everybody, but if we had London, Manchester, Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt Hahn, plus a few sun destinations, then a million is entirely achievable.

It's entirely a pipe dream to be honest. We don't see Amsterdam from Shannon. What your suggesting is akin to christallers central place theory, where people have equal purchasing power, equal transport, and will go to their nearest convience. The reality is starkly different, economic situations are very differing, and a €20 Ryanair flight with several choices of departure times draws passengers from even places like Cork and Limerick. It shouldn't really, but it does.

If the question the report sets out to answer is "is the airport sustainable in its present form?", then you can be sure it's a stitch-up. But hopefully the question will be "what investment is required to make it competitive?"

The cynic in me says that it will be the former...

Why would it phrases it as "what investment is required to make it competitive"? That implies it can become competitive, and in my view, it simply cannot since the building of the Celtic tiger motorways and express bus routes to the exploding Dublin. I assume the question will be "can it become semi-sustainable" with the caveat of a runway extention in the mix. Even if the airport managed to get a steady service to London, It would still be horribly loss-making. It would need several services with airlines who actually pay fees, even knock would lose money if they didn't have a €10 departure fee, which I think would ironically knock Waterford out too if it ever got a service.

I understand you do hope for the airport to succeed, and are perhaps looking at it through rose tinted glasses. I myself know Waterford well and have an interest in the place, have spent a good period of time there in the last number of years. However with the stark and obivous issues facing the city, I think any campaigning work would be much better put into improving the city, getting industry in there, and incorporating the area north of the suir into the county and city. Such strange political situations have left a city center facing onto almost countryside. Why battle the unachievable like the airport when progress can be made at other issues?

Well progress is being made on other areas. All going well there will be a €400 million euro development begining soon on the north quays.

Waterford/South East needs help and I think this airport can provide some assistance to the city and the region.

I think your looking at it the wrong way, places that are in trouble need investment to get a leg up. The north quays and the airport are just the kind of developments that a place needs to get itself back on track.

dzilla

Deiseen wrote: »

Well progress is being made on other areas. All going well there will be a €400 million euro white elephant begining soon on the north quays.

Fixed that for you

Deiseen

dzilla wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

Well progress is being made on other areas. All going well there will be a €400 million euro white elephant begining soon on the north quays.

Fixed that for you

What are you basing that on exactly?

fricatus

Deiseen wrote: »

What are you basing that on exactly?

Presumably it's based on the fact that someone on the internet called dzilla knows more about major urban redevelopment projects than some little multi-million dollar Saudi construction company with a track record of delivering such projects across Europe.

dzilla

fricatus wrote: »

Presumably it's based on the fact that someone on the internet called dzilla knows more about major urban redevelopment projects than some little multi-million dollar Saudi construction company with a track record of delivering such projects across Europe.

What that guy said

Harry Palmr

I'd like the airport to become a leisure facility - air shows featuring shot take off and landing aircraft in stunt teams, balloon festivals

This sort of thing! (skip to 3 mins)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMVVxPB_M2Q

fricatus

Waterford News & Star reporting that the airport has secured €5 million in investment to build the runway extension.

MentalMario

fricatus wrote: »

Waterford News & Star reporting that the airport has secured €5 million in investment to build the runway extension.

Hope it's true but they've run airport stories previously that haven't come to fruition.

CityJet to Liverpool/Manchester at weekends & London weekdays would be profitable in my opinion.

It costs a company in the South East €500+ to fly to London from Dublin when you factor in transport to/from the airport expenses as well as plane ticket.

Masala

MentalMario wrote: »

Hope it's true but they've run airport stories previously that haven't come to fruition.

CityJet to Liverpool/Manchester at weekends & London weekdays would be profitable in my opinion.

It costs a company in the South East €500+ to fly to London from Dublin when you factor in transport to/from the airport expenses as well as plane ticket.

Can't see that happening!! Couldn't make it work at Cork and withdrew. Their modus operandi is heavy into wet-leases etc...safe option for them with no risk.

Masala

fricatus wrote: »

Waterford News & Star reporting that the airport has secured €5 million in investment to build the runway extension.

Link???

marno21

Masala wrote: »

Link???

It's on their Facebook page but not their website

fricatus

Masala wrote: »

Link???

Print edition!!!

Harry Palmr

5 million sounds a bit on the small side.

Deiseen

Harry Palmr wrote: »

5 million sounds a bit on the small side.

5 mil from private investor, they want the same matched by Government and then €4 milliln from Kilkenny and Wexford.

marno21

What size runway extension is proposed? Is it sufficient for a 737/A320?

Harry Palmr

4 million from Kil and Wex? I bet that'll be well received!