Waterford Airport.

notharrypotter

Harry Palmr wrote: »

4 million from Kil and Wex? I bet that'll be well received!

Well there was a precident where the local authorities in the west were made take the debt from the books of Knock airport.

Masala

Deiseen wrote: »

5 mil from private investor, they want the same matched by Government and then €4 milliln from Kilkenny and Wexford.

Jaysus... €14,000,000 (the zeros put it in perspective!!)

Is it a Runway extension OR a brand new Runway???
Is the private investment a gift or what???? Can't see the DOT paying an annual grant to Waterford every year so that they can use it pay back a private investor whether in capital repayments or dividends!

TheQuietFella

Deiseen wrote: »

5 mil from private investor, they want the same matched by Government and then €4 milliln from Kilkenny and Wexford.

What have Kilkenny or Wexford got to do with an airport in Waterford?
Why would they be funding its development?

Christy Browne

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What have Kilkenny or Wexford got to do with an airport in Waterford?
Why would they be funding its development?

Waterford Regional Airport.

The clue is in the name...

notharrypotter

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What have Kilkenny or Wexford got to do with an airport in Waterford?
Why would they be funding its development?

If the government decide to fund Waterford off the official balance sheet they will be instructed to don the green jersey and support this worthwhile endeavour.

Fox Uniform

Masala wrote: »

Jaysus... €14,000,000 (the zeros put it in perspective!!)

Is it a Runway extension OR a brand new Runway???
Is the private investment a gift or what???? Can't see the DOT paying an annual grant to Waterford every year so that they can use it pay back a private investor whether in capital repayments or dividends!

Its to increase length from 1433 to 2200 and widen from 30 to 45. This will include moving all the lighting and navigation aids, land purchase, changes to taxiways and ramps and changes to terminal building.

I don't think those figures are totally correct - the news and star state 12,000,000 in total

Thats

5 from investors
5 from government
2 from Waterford, Kilkenny & Wexford Councils

---

12,000,000

fricatus

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What have Kilkenny or Wexford got to do with an airport in Waterford?
Why would they be funding its development?

I work in Kilkenny, and it used to be a huge boon for colleagues of mine to be able to travel to client meetings in London from Waterford.

Don’t forget that a lot of people working in Kilkenny city commute from south Kilkenny, south Tipp near Carrick, and Co Wexford near New Ross, all within easy reach of Waterford airport, the latter particularly when the new bypass of New Ross opens.

Premier86

MentalMario wrote: »

Hope it's true but they've run airport stories previously that haven't come to fruition.

CityJet to Liverpool/Manchester at weekends & London weekdays would be profitable in my opinion.

It costs a company in the South East €500+ to fly to London from Dublin when you factor in transport to/from the airport expenses as well as plane ticket.

In fairness, I read all those stories and in each one, the airport stakeholders were quoted so clearly the information was spot on but the airport management couldn’t get it over the line. Sure look at Aer Southeast, look at all the false announcements they’ve made recently

Fox Uniform

Premier86 wrote: »

In fairness, I read all those stories and in each one, the airport stakeholders were quoted so clearly the information was spot on but the airport management couldn’t get it over the line. Sure look at Aer Southeast, look at all the false announcements they’ve made recently

I don't understand what your trying to say ….. maybe its just me

TheQuietFella

Harry Palmr wrote: »

4 million from Kil and Wex? I bet that'll be well received!

I'll have to start buying Avonmore!

tbarry31

Anymore news on this ? was talking to a staff member in airport and they have heard nothing about this

JCX BXC

tbarry31 wrote: »

Anymore news on this ? was talking to a staff member in airport and they have heard nothing about this

A weeks nothing for a project like this!

914

JCX BXC wrote: »

A weeks nothing for a project like this!

Irish times stating yesterday that the airport have missed out on the the latest €4 million for regional airports.

Money will be provided to knock, kerry and donegal.

Also stated the independent report is expected to be finished in June. Don't think we will hear anything until that is complete and submitted.

tbarry31

Masala wrote: »

Jaysus... €14,000,000 (the zeros put it in perspective!!)

Is it a Runway extension OR a brand new Runway???
Is the private investment a gift or what???? Can't see the DOT paying an annual grant to Waterford every year so that they can use it pay back a private investor whether in capital repayments or dividends!

I would say that if a 737 or A320 could get in to do some flights the airport could run its self and would only need money for operating the Coast Guard service. Private investors would get something back but it would take a long time to get back maybe some investors might have there own aircraft there and might think that convenience is better then getting money back.

invara

tbarry31 wrote: »

I would say that if a 737 or A320 could get in to do some flights the airport could run its self and would only need money for operating the Coast Guard service. Private investors would get something back but it would take a long time to get back maybe some investors might have there own aircraft there and might think that convenience is better then getting money back.

I agree. With economic planes, I estimate the airport would have 1m passenger numbers based on looking at population isochrones in the 30min/60min/90min range and comparing numbers to other regional airports Shannon short-haul business, Cork, Knock and Kerry. The impact of this would be felt across the region in tourism and FDI.

Strategically Ryanair could not leave it open to another low-cost entrant who might nibble at their lucrative Dublin business, chipping away at the very cost sensitive travelers willing to take the 1 -1 1/2 hr spin south.

Given the €320m mooted to be spent in Dublin Airport for an extra 8 million capacity. Cork Airport terminal cost €120 for 3 million capacity and its actual passenger numbers dropped! So the €12m for 1 million looks like remarkable value.

The barrier to getting this done is the Cork and Limerick lobby protecting Shannon and Cork Airports- they argue that both are under capacity (true) and need protection. But the social/economic/cultural effects of those airports are almost nil in the SE (especially as the M20 is being preferred over the M24 and the N25 is being tactically throttled down in East Cork even before IKEA). Dublin lobby does not care once the €320 for their airports is secured.

Masala

invara wrote: »

I agree. With economic planes, I estimate the airport would have 1m passenger numbers based on looking at population isochrones in the 30min/60min/90min range and comparing numbers to other regional airports Shannon short-haul business, Cork, Knock and Kerry. The impact of this would be felt across the region in tourism and FDI.

Strategically Ryanair could not leave it open to another low-cost entrant who might nibble at their lucrative Dublin business, chipping away at the very cost sensitive travelers willing to take the 1 -1 1/2 hr spin south.

Given the €320m mooted to be spent in Dublin Airport for an extra 8 million capacity. Cork Airport terminal cost €120 for 3 million capacity and its actual passenger numbers dropped! So the €12m for 1 million looks like remarkable value.

The barrier to getting this done is the Cork and Limerick lobby protecting Shannon and Cork Airports- they argue that both are under capacity (true) and need protection. But the social/economic/cultural effects of those airports are almost nil in the SE (especially as the M20 is being preferred over the M24 and the N25 is being tactically throttled down in East Cork even before IKEA). Dublin lobby does not care once the €320 for their airports is secured.

Knock handle 720k pax. Kerry 320k. And u see Waterford attracting handling 1m.....!!!!
The €12m is runway expendure.... so the terminal can handle 1m pax throughout after that???

And Ryanair could see Waterford as a threat to Dublin????

invara

Yes. Knock/Ireland West and Kerry have much thinner population basis in the 30 min/60 min/90 min radius, so I stand by my suggestion that Waterford would eventually pace up to 1 million passengers or 8-10 flight arrivals per day.

Terminal does not need to be anything more than a shed with security (look at Kerry, or any of the low cost EU airports). Waterford would nibble at some of the Dublin honeypots (Spain and London)... at a low level but one that impacts profits.

JCX BXC

invara wrote: »

Yes. Knock/Ireland West and Kerry have much thinner population basis in the 30 min/60 min/90 min radius, so I stand by my suggestion that Waterford would eventually pace up to 1 million passengers or 8-10 flight arrivals per day.

Terminal does not need to be anything more than a shed with security (look at Kerry, or any of the low cost EU airports). Waterford would nibble at some of the Dublin honeypots (Spain and London)... at a low level but one that impacts profits.

Whatever you're taking gimme some!

Masala

JCX BXC wrote: »

Whatever you're taking gimme some!

He might have to come in from the sun!!! Or put on a hat!

hardybuck

I think annual passenger numbers have only risen above the 100k mark in 2-3 years in the airport's history, around the height of the Celtic Tiger, after a number of years of consecutive growth.

Getting back to those levels would be a great achievement.

invara

Masala wrote: »

He might have to come in from the sun!!! Or put on a hat!

Masla and JCX BXC- I think it is reasonable to extrapolate from the demographics surrounding the Irish airports and their existing passenger numbers to estimate the user base for a Waterford Airport that can take 737/A320s. How else would you do it?

Stuck in an office today, so you can knock sun stroke off your list.

JCX BXC

invara wrote: »

Masla and JCX BXC- I think it is reasonable to extrapolate from the demographics surrounding the Irish airports and their existing passenger numbers to estimate the user base for a Waterford Airport that can take 737/A320s. How else would you do it?

Stuck in an office today, so you can knock sun stroke off your list.

I'm going to refer you to this.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107016486&postcount=1214

Also, I'd point out that you're not using existing Irish airports and their demographics, Cork and Shannon have catchments in excess of 2x and 3x Waterford, her aren't making the same level.

invara

JCX BXC wrote: »

I'm going to refer you to this.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107016486&postcount=1214

Also, I'd point out that you're not using existing Irish airports and their demographics, Cork and Shannon have catchments in excess of 2x and 3x Waterford, her aren't making the same level.

Not seeing any hard data in your linked post, just Cork orientated argumentation. That might have been good enough in the past- but data is required, ideally using CSO data to generate isochrones. Shannon/Mid-West population is 380k, South-East is 510k, South is 550k..... so not sure how you magic up 2x and 3x.

Runway extension is cheap and 737/A320s change everything. It is a no-brainer for the SE, obviously not overly welcome development in CK/LK/D... but of no real concern for these regions.

JCX BXC

invara wrote: »

Not seeing any hard data in your linked post, just Cork orientated argumentation. That might have been good enough in the past- but data is required, ideally using CSO data to generate isochrones. Shannon/Mid-West population is 380k, South-East is 510k, South is 550k..... so not sure how you magic up 2x and 3x.

Runway extension is cheap and 737/A320s change everything. It is a no-brainer for the SE, obviously not overly welcome development in CK/LK/D... but of no real concern for these regions.

I take it you didn't read it comprehensively. I've explained all the points as to why Waterford won't ever really be an operating airport. If you choose to ignore all my solid points and base it purely on population, then fine, I won't debate it again!

Also, catchments aren't defined by CSO boundaries.

Time

invara wrote: »

Strategically Ryanair could not leave it open to another low-cost entrant who might nibble at their lucrative Dublin business, chipping away at the very cost sensitive travelers willing to take the 1 -1 1/2 hr spin south.

You’re deluded if you think that’s true, Ryanair wouldn’t go near Waterford. They don’t need to for 2 reasons. Firstly the cost of a Ryanair flight is generally so low that there’s no benefit, financially or time wise that would make it worth while for people to go to the effort of traveling extra time to Waterford. Especially as there’s no public transport option to the airport at all, whereas Dublin is served by loads of Express services.

Secondly no carrier that would operate out of Waterford could beat them on price. So if I as a consumer have the choice of traveling roughly the same distance to Dublin or Waterford and Dublin is cheaper, better connected, has shopping etc.. which are all draws. Why would I travel from Waterford?

914

invara wrote: »

Strategically Ryanair could not leave it open to another low-cost entrant who might nibble at their lucrative Dublin business, chipping away at the very cost sensitive travelers willing to take the 1 -1 1/2 hr spin south.

Out of curiosity who would the other low cost airlines be?

invara

914 wrote: »

Out of curiosity who would the other low cost airlines be?

There are over 30 low-cost carriers in Europe- including a few UK based airlines like EasyJet, Flybe, Jet2.com and Norwegian Air UK. About 7 or 8 European low-cost carriers fly out of Dublin but they tend to avoid going head-to-head on particular routes with Ryanair so either Ryanair would move in to Waterford (as they do with every Irish airport that can take a 737), or someone else will have a go. Sub 737/A320 planes are not economic in the European short-haul market, and yet over the past twenty years around seven different carriers have burnt their capital in flying from Waterford with twin-props. I cannot see a market of 500k people with a low-cost airstrip being left without a carrier for too long.

914

invara wrote: »

There are over 30 low-cost carriers in Europe- including a few UK based airlines like EasyJet, Flybe, Jet2.com and Norwegian Air UK. About 7 or 8 European low-cost carriers fly out of Dublin but they tend to avoid going head-to-head on particular routes with Ryanair so either Ryanair would move in to Waterford (as they do with every Irish airport that can take a 737), or someone else will have a go. Sub 737/A320 planes are not economic in the European short-haul market, and yet over the past twenty years around seven different carriers have burnt their capital in flying from Waterford with twin-props. I cannot see a market of 500k people with a low-cost airstrip being left without a carrier for too long.

Thanks for the reply.

Did easyjet and jet2 not pull out of Ireland becuse of Ryanar, chances of them returning slim to none. Norwegian operate out of cork so couldn't see them competing with themselves. Flybe already operated from Waterford, granted on turbo props.

I really want waterford to do well and work but I think being relaistic, would be getting back to 100k + passengers and not 1 million

The problem I see is, Killenny to Waterford v Kilkenny to Dublin is only a difference of 30mins, it is going to be very hard to break into that catchment area.

The airport never seemed to target Kilkenny for some reason and therefore Kilkenny people have become accustomed and use to Dublin as well as anyone north of that.

Cork Airport have hammered waterford recently with advertisement and like my point above, anyone west of dungarvan have now got accustomed to cork so realistically our catchment is most likely far smaller than you expect.

To turn waterford around it will need a massive PR campaign, unfortunately I don't see it being a case of build it and they will come.

Hopefully the North Quays will help with the airport but I think we are a long off your 1 million prediction

circular flexing

Time wrote: »

You’re deluded if you think that’s true, Ryanair wouldn’t go near Waterford. They don’t need to for 2 reasons. Firstly the cost of a Ryanair flight is generally so low that there’s no benefit, financially or time wise that would make it worth while for people to go to the effort of traveling extra time to Waterford. Especially as there’s no public transport option to the airport at all, whereas Dublin is served by loads of Express services.

Secondly no carrier that would operate out of Waterford could beat them on price. So if I as a consumer have the choice of traveling roughly the same distance to Dublin or Waterford and Dublin is cheaper, better connected, has shopping etc.. which are all draws. Why would I travel from Waterford?

Exactly this. Nobody from Wexford (for example) would use Waterford if the same flight at the same price (or even a few euro more) is available from Dublin

Deiseen

circular flexing wrote: »

Time wrote: »

You’re deluded if you think that’s true, Ryanair wouldn’t go near Waterford. They don’t need to for 2 reasons. Firstly the cost of a Ryanair flight is generally so low that there’s no benefit, financially or time wise that would make it worth while for people to go to the effort of traveling extra time to Waterford. Especially as there’s no public transport option to the airport at all, whereas Dublin is served by loads of Express services.

Secondly no carrier that would operate out of Waterford could beat them on price. So if I as a consumer have the choice of traveling roughly the same distance to Dublin or Waterford and Dublin is cheaper, better connected, has shopping etc.. which are all draws. Why would I travel from Waterford?

Exactly this. Nobody from Wexford (for example) would use Waterford if the same flight at the same price (or even a few euro more) is available from Dublin

Your telling me if a flight is available from an airport, half the distance as Dublin, at the same price. That people wudnt use it?

You are mad.