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Waterford Airport.

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    #1262
    Time
    Registered Users Posts: 993 ✭✭✭Time


    invara wrote: »
    There are over 30 low-cost carriers in Europe- including a few UK based airlines like EasyJet, Flybe, Jet2.com and Norwegian Air UK.

    Most of which are in some sort of financial difficulty. Waterford is just not an attractive enough market to justify establishing a route from, if it was we’d have Embraer 195s or something similar that already lands in London City Airport (which has a shorter runway).

    The bigger the plane the bigger the cost per hour, so if Turbo props can’t sustain a route there’s zero chance a jet could


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    #1263
    Time
    Registered Users Posts: 993 ✭✭✭Time


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Your telling me if a flight is available from an airport, half the distance as Dublin, at the same price. That people wudnt use it?

    You are mad.

    It won’t ever be the same price though, Dublin has economies of scale Waterford can’t match.


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    #1264
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Time wrote: »
    It won’t ever be the same price though, Dublin has economies of scale Waterford can’t match.
    If that was the case everyone wanting to fly from Killarney to London would drive to Cork.

    Kerry has 6 Ryanair flights at the minute, and is reasonably close to Cork and Shannon airports.

    Knock is performing even better, especially with UK routes, is only 2 and half hours from Dublin and all 3 major towns in Mayo are rail connected also.

    Ryanair fly to every airport on this island that can handle a 737 except for Belfast City, and they fly to Belfast International to cover Belfast. If Waterford had a 2,200m runway I wouldn't be surprised to see them run London flights, or sun routes in Summer.


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    #1265
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,173 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Your telling me if a flight is available from an airport, half the distance as Dublin, at the same price. That people wudnt use it?

    You are mad.

    When Dublin offers the route at several times daily compared to whatever low frequency Waterford manages to scrap you can bet!

    People need to think logically about this. The hub theory is no conspiracy or myth, it is factually based and is true in practise. Based on what I've read I'd like to make a few points.

    1. No low cost carrier will ever enter Waterford, or any other Irish airport for that matter as they will be chased out by Ryanair before they can catch their breath. A foreign, unknown airline will not have the financial standing or recognition in the country to compete, and once they leave Ryanair will too.

    2. People are really getting confused with catchment. You cannot take an area and say "everyone here will fly from Waterford, or X amount of people will" Many factors must be considered. Distance from Dublin is a big one, which is why Knock airport does so well, it's very isolated. Waterford is not isolated from Dublin at all. Frequency is massive, cost is massive, and access is massive. However, these points are being entirely looked over by many here and it's being painted with the generic brush of "this many people live here".

    3. Read over my last points, which I posted here. Waterford has lots going against it, lower discretionary spending than other areas, lack of industry, lack of a healthy tourist product. All these things boost airports, and is a big reason why airports like Shannon do so well.

    4. A point I've made several times before is that Waterford cannot currently sustain a turboprop service. Airports like Shannon, Knock and Cork, even Donegal maintain turboprop services to secondary UK cities. The frequency they offer often allow these services to be competitive. If Waterford can't sustain 3x weekly on a Saab to Birmingham, how on Earth do people expect that it'll sustain daily operations to said destination on a 737? London is the only market in my opinion that cannot be reasonably accessed on a turboprop, and likely the only route a jet aircraft would ever succeed on. Would airlines be interested in diluting their Cork and Dublin yields? No.


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    #1266
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,173 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    marno21 wrote: »
    If that was the case everyone wanting to fly from Killarney to London would drive to Cork.

    Kerry has 6 Ryanair flights at the minute, and is reasonably close to Cork and Shannon airports.

    Knock is performing even better, especially with UK routes, is only 2 and half hours from Dublin and all 3 major towns in Mayo are rail connected also.

    Ryanair fly to every airport on this island that can handle a 737 except for Belfast City, and they fly to Belfast International to cover Belfast. If Waterford had a 2,200m runway I wouldn't be surprised to see them run London flights, or sun routes in Summer.

    Kerry would be fast underwater if it did not maintain it's PSO. That sustains the airport and is vital to it's survival. Kerry also offers one of the most superior tourist products in the country, allowing lots of inbound UK and German passengers. Hell I even met a group of Spanish from near Alicante in Killarney a few years ago!


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    #1267
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    JCX BXC wrote: »
    4. A point I've made several times before is that Waterford cannot currently sustain a turboprop service. Airports like Shannon, Knock and Cork, even Donegal maintain turboprop services to secondary UK cities. The frequency they offer often allow these services to be competitive. If Waterford can't sustain 3x weekly on a Saab to Birmingham, how on Earth do people expect that it'll sustain daily operations to said destination on a 737? London is the only market in my opinion that cannot be reasonably accessed on a turboprop, and likely the only route a jet aircraft would ever succeed on. Would airlines be interested in diluting their Cork and Dublin yields? No.

    Ah here. You can't play the isolation card and then talk up Donegal for competing with Dublin. The CFN-GLA service was pulled by EI and is now running with a smaller plane on Loganair so who knows how that will go in the long term.

    Waterford was heavily restricted by the runway length even with UK services. If FR were that worried about diluting yields why do they offer 12x weekly services from Kerry to London when they offer upto 4x London daily from Cork and also 3x per day from Shannon? FR aren't that worried about consolidation into single airports given how many close together airports they operate from now. They operate from both LPL/MAN, 3 airports in London, 3 airports in Barcelona (REU/GRN/BCN), 2 airports near Vienna (BTS/VIE). They also operate from both Prestwick and Glasgow Intl, although they are moving a large share of GLA services to Edinburgh.


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    #1268
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    JCX BXC wrote: »
    Kerry would be fast underwater if it did not maintain it's PSO. That sustains the airport and is vital to it's survival. Kerry also offers one of the most superior tourist products in the country, allowing lots of inbound UK and German passengers. Hell I even met a group of Spanish from near Alicante in Killarney a few years ago!

    I agree with all those points, even though the PSO provides only around 15% of passengers so maybe not so much that one. It surprises me that there is no UK regional route to Kerry although with the current £/€ situation it won't happen soon. If it improves I could see a Manchester or Birmingham service being viable with Flybe, for both inbound and outbound purposes.

    All the same, I don't think Kerry would be anywhere near as successful if it didn't have a 2,000m runway. The London services wouldn't be there if they were on Saab 340s or equivalent. Having a 737/A320 compatible runway is the only way to comparatively measure an airport, and Waterford doesn't have that.


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    #1269
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,173 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    marno21 wrote: »
    Ah here. You can't play the isolation card and then talk up Donegal for competing with Dublin. The CFN-GLA service was pulled by EI and is now running with a smaller plane on Loganair so who knows how that will go in the long term.

    When did I talk up Donegal for competing with Dublin? Don't read between the lines Marno, there's nothing there.

    I assume that route will go the way it's gone for years and years, fairly well. On an aside, it actually looks like loganair took the Glasgow route so that EI could get the PSO, but I'm not going to debate that point.
    Waterford was heavily restricted by the runway length even with UK services. If FR were that worried about diluting yields why do they offer 12x weekly services from Kerry to London when they offer upto 4x London daily from Cork and also 3x per day from Shannon? FR aren't that worried about consolidation into single airports given how many close together airports they operate from now. They operate from both LPL/MAN, 3 airports in London, 3 airports in Barcelona (REU/GRN/BCN), 2 airports near Vienna (BTS/VIE). They also operate from both Prestwick and Glasgow Intl, although they are moving a large share of GLA services to Edinburgh.

    Because Kerry has a strong market, with lots of tourist potential. Note that they operate to Luton from Knock and Kerry instead of the Gatwick they operate from Shannon and Cork so as to keep yields high and offer a larger route profile. Kerry is an inbound market, so if the routes aren't there, the passengers won't fly, they'll just go somewhere else. In outbound markets, passengers will travel to fly if they don't have a choice.

    Liverpool and Manchester, Bratislava and Vienna massive cities Marno, we're talking about Waterford here. Reus and Girona are serving local tourist markets, especially the former, Barcelona is a city destinstion. Prestwick served only holiday routes, Glasgow was the main game, but that has gone south.

    You can argue for your regionals all day, but the outcomes speak for themselves.


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    #1270
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    JCX BXC wrote: »
    When did I talk up Donegal for competing with Dublin? Don't read between the lines Marno, there's nothing there.

    I assume that route will go the way it's gone for years and years, fairly well. On an aside, it actually looks like loganair took the Glasgow route so that EI could get the PSO, but I'm not going to debate that point.

    I misread your point there, apologies, I will withdraw the above. I shouldn't read so fast.
    JCX BXC wrote: »
    Because Kerry has a strong market, with lots of tourist potential. Note that they operate to Luton from Knock and Kerry instead of the Gatwick they operate from Shannon and Cork so as to keep yields high and offer a larger route profile. Kerry is an inbound market, so if the routes aren't there, the passengers won't fly, they'll just go somewhere else. In outbound markets, passengers will travel to fly if they don't have a choice.

    Liverpool and Manchester, Bratislava and Vienna massive cities Marno, we're talking about Waterford here. Reus and Girona are serving local tourist markets, especially the former, Barcelona is a city destinstion. Prestwick served only holiday routes, Glasgow was the main game, but that has gone south.

    You can argue for your regionals all day, but the outcomes speak for themselves.

    What I meant by that point, seperate to the fact that FR are now effectively running two seperate types of routes, one high yield eg SNN-LGW and others low yield eg LTN-NOC, is that Ryanair don't follow a policy of not launching from an airport/leaving an airport just because they operate in another airport closeby, which does come down to yield to a certain extent. Even though they are getting a foot in larger airports like Frankfurt am Main, they still maintain the Hahn base for lower yield and tourist routes, as you said above. What I think is that Waterford could manage a route to Luton, both for inbound tourism (general Ireland traffic + Waterford making tourism gains especially with successes such as the greenway) and a certain element of higher yield travel given the proximity of Waterford Airport to the area and the fact that some people are happy to pay a premium to use such a facility.

    I don't think Waterford are in a position to threaten any other airport, nor do I think Ryanair will be at Waterford from day 1 with full high yield planes, but personally I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

    Of course you could also be faced with a classic Ryanair situation of then coming in for a while and deciding to sod off leaving the airport in limbo.


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    #1271
    914
    Registered Users Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭914


    If we build a larger runway and manage to get in a low cost airline, how does the airport still survive?

    Surely to attrach in a low cost airline, they would be coming in and paying very little or even worse the airport would have to pay to attrach them in?

    I think we all need to be realistic here, I think we first need to get back to being a regional airport, 70 - 100 seater plane doing a london route and possible either manchester or liverpool.

    Extend the runway and then hopefully attract sun destinations in the summer.

    I do fear at the moment a regional airport can not attrach a regional airline which is disappointing.


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    #1272
    sillysocks
    Registered Users Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭sillysocks


    Documentary on Channel 4 at the moment called ‘How to start an airline’, about two people setting up a Muslim airline, and their first airport hopes to be Waterford (to London).
    The two guys don’t inspire confidence! Can’t see them getting off the ground.

    Looking on Twitter the main comments are wondering if it’s a piss take.

    **Edit..... halfway through the documentary he gets contacted to say Waterford Airport are discontinuing discussions with him (yes they were that bad that even an airport with no airline wouldn’t deal with them!)


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    #1273
    tbarry31
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭tbarry31


    Rumour has it that Aer Southeast will be announcing in the next few days that flights to Luton , Birmingham and Manchester will commence this year.


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    #1274
    Kotek Besar
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭Kotek Besar


    tbarry31 wrote: »
    Rumour has it that Aer Southeast will be announcing in the next few days that flights to Luton , Birmingham and Manchester will commence this year.

    Oh well, if Aer Southeast say it I expect it will definitely happen.


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    #1275
    mjdh1957
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭mjdh1957


    tbarry31 wrote: »
    Rumour has it that Aer Southeast will be announcing in the next few days that flights to Luton , Birmingham and Manchester will commence this year.

    Maybe the rumours from last year are just doing the rounds again.


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    #1276
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,480 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Well there is a large ad to that effect beside Mr Price on the inner ring road - I could not remember having seen it before, but immediately assumed it was an old one.


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    #1277
    man98
    Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    looksee wrote: »
    Well there is a large ad to that effect beside Mr Price on the inner ring road - I could not remember having seen it before, but immediately assumed it was an old one.

    There's been an Aer Southeast advertisement road sign between the IT and the monopoly factory which was recently covered over however, it might be worth checking out if they removed the advert placed on top of it?


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    #1278
    Fox Uniform
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Fox Uniform


    tbarry31 wrote: »
    Rumour has it that Aer Southeast will be announcing in the next few days that flights to Luton , Birmingham and Manchester will commence this year.

    Pity but aer southeast are dead and buried.

    Regardless of what they say they have no AOC and no aircraft. If they want to wet lease an aircraft they need to have a tour operator licence, they don't have this either - they had 12 mon the to sort it and have not contacted the aviation regulator at any point in the last 12 months. They also have no slots booked at any airport.

    Whoever is giving you this rumour its wishful thinking


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    #1279
    curmudgeonly
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭curmudgeonly


    An EIS underway at unseemly haste, hope this is a good sign of things to come.


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    #1280
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    curmudgeonly wrote: »
    An EIS underway at unseemly haste, hope this is a good sign of things to come.

    For second runway?


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    #1281
    Squidvicious
    Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Squidvicious


    mjdh1957 wrote: »
    Maybe the rumours from last year are just doing the rounds again.

    Unfortunately, I think that you're right. If you google Aer Southeast, a few articles do come up suggesting that they will start up this year https://www.google.ie/search?source=hp&ei=UqgsW_iYPMyegAbNv4qIBQ&q=aer+southeast&oq=ae&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.35i39k1j0j0i131k1l4j0l4.1344.1625.0.3316.3.2.0.0.0.0.106.176.1j1.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.2.155.0...0.VQc6Zb0GzQw. However, unless I'm misreading it, they all seem to date from late February or early March. There's no recent announcement on their website or Facebook page either.


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    #1282
    curmudgeonly
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭curmudgeonly


    Deiseen wrote: »
    For second runway?
    For extension to existing runway, planning in place but EIS missing apparently


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    #1283
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    curmudgeonly wrote: »
    Deiseen wrote: »
    For second runway?
    For extension to existing runway, planning in place but EIS missing apparently

    Sorry thats what I meant, got mixed up with Heathrow, as you do.


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    #1284
    Muttley79
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭Muttley79


    Any update on Ernst young review on Waterford airport,when do we hear the report on the future of the airport


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    #1285
    dzilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,810 ✭✭✭dzilla


    Muttley79 wrote: »
    Any update on Ernst young review on Waterford airport,when do we hear the report on the future of the airport


    Give them a ring and ask.


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    #1286
    curmudgeonly
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭curmudgeonly


    Muttley79 wrote: »
    Any update on Ernst young review on Waterford airport,when do we hear the report on the future of the airport

    Due this week


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    #1287
    Muttley79
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭Muttley79


    dzilla wrote: »
    Give them a ring and ask.

    Wahey a comedian


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    #1288
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    I seen on Facebook there an ad for cork airport
    It specifically states that cork airport is Waterford’s favourite airport just 90mins away..
    cork really muscling in on the Waterford airport mess


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    #1289
    Muttley79
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭Muttley79


    robtri wrote: »
    I seen on Facebook there an ad for cork airport
    It specifically states that cork airport is Waterford’s favourite airport just 90mins away..
    cork really muscling in on the Waterford airport mess

    Wlr fm the radio station of Waterford constantly advertises cork airport.would you see any other city in Ireland advertise another city airport?No you wouldn't.cork airport must be throwing big money at Waterford media to promote their airport


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    #1290
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    robtri wrote: »
    I seen on Facebook there an ad for cork airport
    It specifically states that cork airport is Waterford’s favourite airport just 90mins away..
    cork really muscling in on the Waterford airport mess

    Cork airport can say they are the favourite all they want, but I'm fairly sure Dublin airport is.

    Probably use Cork airport once for every ten times I use Dublin. Same for most people i know.


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    #1291
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,173 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Muttley79 wrote: »
    Wlr fm the radio station of Waterford constantly advertises cork airport.would you see any other city in Ireland advertise another city airport?No you wouldn't.cork airport must be throwing big money at Waterford media to promote their airport

    Yes, yes you would. Shannon airport have often advertised in Cork. Although for your faux outrage you can just continue to ignore that fact if you wish.


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